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Don Quixote

Franchise's All-Time Lineups: Currently: Extra Innings

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3 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

SP Hisashi Iwakuma - Only one elite season, but that’s enough for me to put him here. Kind of meh on the next options -- Mike Moore, Freddy Garcia, James Paxton

Erik Hanson deserves a mention.  He had two strong seasons and two pretty good ones out of 5+ years in Seattle before being traded for all-time Mariner legend Dan Wilson.

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21 minutes ago, Encyclopedia Brown said:

Frank Costanza is going to be upset about the omission of one of his favorite players. 

Do I get semi-credit for throwing in the Ken Phelps’ reference?

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23 minutes ago, Don Quixote said:
45 minutes ago, Encyclopedia Brown said:

Frank Costanza is going to be upset about the omission of one of his favorite players. 

Do I get semi-credit for throwing in the Ken Phelps’ reference?

If Phelps could've hit LHP, he would have been a star or at least Adam Dunn.  Almost 90% of his PAs came against righties.

He's another guy who might have have been a better fit in the modern game.  Half of his top B-R comps are current players.

Edited by Eephus

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Unrelated nugget from the same B-R dive, Marcus Thames and Eric Thames are mutual top comps.  The two are not related as far as I can tell.

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San Diego Padres

C Gene Tenace - Not much difference between Tenance, Terry Kennedy, and Benito Santiago. Tenance is 4th in franchise WAR; Kennedy 11th and Santiago 13th, but they are not far behind based on number.
1B Adrian Gonzalez - Franchise career HR leader is Nate Colbert (who is next option at 1B) at 163, with Gonzalez next at 161. Pretty close between the two. Fred McGriff had some great years in San Diego too, but I don’t think there long enough. McGriff may end up on a “best not to make any of the lists” players, as he’s just missed out in SD, Toronto, TB, and Atlanta.
2B Roberto Alomar  - Alomar makes his second quad for (along with Toronto). Not in SD for long, but they were elite.
3B Ken Caminiti - Drug-fueled, but let’s hope they don’t test this lineup. Franchise leader in Slugging and OPS. Chase Headley, Graig Nettles at the end of his career, and Phil Nevin are some other options. 
SS Garry Templeton - SD certainly lost the Templeton for Ozzie Smith trade. Garry was in SD over twice as long as Ozzie, but has less franchise WAR. I’ll still go Garry though as he is second in franchise hits, and he gives me another contributor to the team that made the 1984 WS (as I think I just otherwise have Gwynn from position players). Ozzie’s WAR in SD almost entirely defensive, and he did not become better offensively until post-trade. I don’t think you could go wrong with either Ozzie or Garry here.
LF Gene Richards - I’ll admit to not ever having heard of him before this exercise, but he ranks 5th in franchise WAR for position players, so must have done something right.  Carmelo Martinez another option here. 
CF Tony Gwynn - Qualified in CF based on 1995. Winfield qualifies at CF too because of 1978. Avoids the tough choice between the two in RF, and leaving one out of the lineup.
RF Dave Winfield - Only behind Gwynn in franchise career WAR.

SP Jake Peavy - 2007 Cy Young plus winner of the pitching triple crown. Also leads in WAR among starting pitcher.
SP Randy Jones - 1976 Cy Young winner, and 1975 Cy Young runner-up.
SP Eric Show - All-time franchise wins leader. Never really elite, but consistent starter for a number of years.
SP Andy Ashby - Another one that was never really elite, but a couple of All-Star appearances and was a piece of the Padres’ run to the World Series in 1998.
SP Gaylord Perry - Only two years, but they were pretty effective, including the 1978 NL Cy Young.
RP Trevor Hoffman - The rare RP that leads in franchise career pitching WAR.

Could put in someone like Ed Whitson, Andy Benes, and Bruce Hurt as SP too (and some others in that group too).  I probably wasted too much time going back and forth on back-end of the rotation. Benes behind only Peavy and Ashby among starters in pitching WAR. 
 

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I was just looking at teams that I (or others in this thread) have not done yet, and I think it is just Diamondbacks and Marlins left.

Edited by Don Quixote
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I'd probably put Kevin Brown in off his sole season in SD.  Best pitching season by a Padre by quite a bit.

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39 minutes ago, rodg12 said:

I'd probably put Kevin Brown in off his sole season in SD.  Best pitching season by a Padre by quite a bit.

Brown’s a good call. I don’t think I’ve put too many (if any) one season players in my lineups, but Brown had that rare season that could fit the bill.

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On 2/12/2020 at 6:29 AM, Don Quixote said:

SS Garry Templeton

Here's an interesting :nerd:article about Templeton's quest to get 100 hits as both a left and right handed hitter.  The author builds a strong case that the historical record per Retrosheet and Baseball-Reference is incorrect and that Templeton actually achieved his goal in 1979.

He was a Cardinal at the time though.

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On 2/12/2020 at 6:29 AM, Don Quixote said:

CF Tony Gwynn

If you need a true CF, Kevin McReynolds would probably get the nod.

 

On 2/12/2020 at 6:29 AM, Don Quixote said:

LF Gene Richards

Richards was a high OBP speed guy whose career was cut short by a knee injury at age 29.  His B-R comps include a bunch of dead ball era guys and Scott Podsednik.

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Florida/Miami Marlins

C J.T. Realmuto - Close between Realmuto and Charles Johnson.  Johnson had a couple of great years (including a big role in the Marlins’ 1997 WS run), but Realmuto was consistently better.
1B Jeff Conine - Mostly played LF, but qualifies at 1B too. Marlins don’t have a lot here. I’ll give him edge of Derrek Lee
2B Luis Castillo - Dan Uggla has an argument too, but Castillo in FLA longer and a big part of the 2003 WS team. Marlins all-time leader in hits.
3B Miguel Cabrera - I had to find a place for him somewhere, but qualifies all over the field.  Mike Lowell would be for someone who spent most of his time at 3B. Another member of the 2003 WS team.
SS Hanley Ramirez - An easy one to slot. ROY plus 3 years where he received MVP consideration in FLA. Only behind Stanton in career franchise WAR for position players.
LF Christian Yelich - As mentioned, Conine another option here. Cliff Floyd also had some solid years, and would be a deserving pick as well (I could have started Yelich in CF and put Floyd here).
CF Juan Pierre - Marlins don’t have a whole lot in CF. I’ll bring some extra speed to the lineup. Preston Wilson another option.
RF Giancarlo Stanton - Another easy pick, but forced to leave out Gary Sheffield.

SP Kevin Brown
SP Josh Johnson
SP Dontrelle Willis
SP Jose Fernandez
SP Anibal Sanchez
RP Robb Nen

The first four starters were pretty easy to pick without even looking at a list of Marlins starters.  I was tempted to go with Al Leiter, but he really only had one great year in MIA (and that year was only marginally better than Sanchez’s best year).  AJ Burnett and the franchise win leader in Ricky Nolasco are also options.  

Nen leads in saves and games finished. 
 

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Arizona Diamondbacks

C Miguel Montero - Not only played catcher in ARI the longest, but also had the most elite numbers for a C.

1B Paul Goldschmidt - A pretty easy pick here; ranks first in franchise WAR among position players. Next best option might be Mark Grace when he was getting close to retirement.

2B Ketel Marte - It may be premature, but last year, he put up the best numbers by an ARI 2B. Diamondbacks don’t have a lot here anyway -- Orlando Hudson probably next up.

3B Matt Williams - Williams makes his second squad for me.  Post-peak, but Diamondbacks don’t have a lot here. I suppose you could argue for Mark Reynolds.

SS Stephen Drew - Another one where D’backs don’t have a lot of options. 

LF Luis Gonzalez - Another runaway pick. Two years in top 10 in NL WAR, and important piece of the 2001 WS team. Also, club record for hits and home runs.

CF A.J. Pollock - Some other options here like Chris Young and Steve Finley (who rank 3, 4, and 5 in franchise WAR among position players). 

RF Justin Upton - A lot of “meh” here.

 

SP Randy Johnson

SP Curt Schilling

SP Brandon Webb

SP Zack Greinke

SP Dan Haren

RP Jose Valverde

Starters are all pretty chalk based on franchise pitching WAR, and all are in top 10 WAR for franchise overall. 

Ziegler has more career franchise WAR than Valverde and leads in appearances, but Valverde has more franchise saves. Valverde may have just had one great season in ARI, but I’d take him at his peak in a pinch.

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And I think every franchise has now been covered in this thread.

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22 minutes ago, Don Quixote said:

2B Ketel Marte - It may be premature, but last year, he put up the best numbers by an ARI 2B. Diamondbacks don’t have a lot here anyway -- Orlando Hudson probably next up.

WAR doesn't give a lot of value to speed but Tony Womack led off for Arizona's championship team and stole 182 bases in four and a half years with the club.  Craig Counsell also had some good years in two stints with the Diamondbacks.

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2 minutes ago, Eephus said:

WAR doesn't give a lot of value to speed but Tony Womack led off for Arizona's championship team and stole 182 bases in four and a half years with the club.  Craig Counsell also had some good years in two stints with the Diamondbacks.

Womack primarily played SS with ARI, but probably was worth a mention behind Drew there.

Counsell is a good call as well. A key part of their 2001 WS run.

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On 1/4/2020 at 2:48 PM, Don Quixote said:

Pittsburgh Pirates

C Manny Sanguillen - Despite the long history, Pirates don’t really have an all-time great here.  Other options out there are Jason Kendall or Tony Pena from recent history, or George Gibson from the 1900s. But probably the weakest position player in the lineup.

1B Willie Stargell - Mostly played LF, but Pirates are loaded in left. I will stick him here.

2B Bill Mazeroski - He may be one of the worst hitters in the HOF, but given his longevity at the position, difficult to put someone else here. And he has that signature moment from the 1960 World Series that nobody else has.

3B Pie Traynor - Bill Madlock had some good years here too, as did Bobby Bonilla before he became a punchline.  But hard to go against a HOFer (even if, like Mazeroski, his numbers don’t hold up that great) who played 3B for the Pirate more than anybody else.

SS Honus Wagner - Runaway, even though Pirates have another great in Arky Vaughn.

LF Ralph Kiner - Could go Fred Clarke or Barry Bonds here too.  Tough to pick between them all. Stargell would go here if I did not put him at 1B.  

CF Max Carey - Pirates are loaded here too.  Another HOFer in Lloyd Waner another option (I had him originally, but editing to replace with Carey on reflection), and Andrew McCutcheon has a pretty good case here too.

RF Roberto Clemente - Tough to leave out the Paul Waner, but only one can start here.

 

SP Bob Friend

SP Babe Adams

SP Wilbur Cooper

SP John Candelaria

SP Doug Drabek

RP Kent Tekulve

I could go with someone else from early Pirates’ history like Deacon Phillipe or Ray Kremer, or from the 50s like Vern Law to fill out the rotation (absent other considerations,they probably all deserve over Drabek and maybe Candelaria), but I’ll go with Candelaria and Drabek instead to give space for a couple of modern players. And Drabek gives a representative from the post-We are Family era, since I could not find space for Bonds, McCutcheon, or Kendall in the position players.

Roy Face another great RP option, but tiebreaker goes to the glasses.

...I think the Pirates backup team could compete with many of the all-time teams that I’ve assembled.

A good list. I have been meaning to put together one. No Bonds is insane though. He is one of the 5 best hitters to ever play. I would say number 2.

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1 hour ago, Drunken Cowboy said:

A good list. I have been meaning to put together one. No Bonds is insane though. He is one of the 5 best hitters to ever play. I would say number 2.

Bonds did make my Giants team, so he was not shut out.  May have given an edge to Kiner so he was not left out (and gave Kiner a boost for being 2nd on the franchise HR list).  

Pirates certainly had one of the deeper teams that I’ve assembled.  Three OFers that I left out from the Pirates (Bonds, Fred Clarke, and Paul Waner) would probably be a top 5 OF in their own right.

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27 minutes ago, Don Quixote said:

Pirates certainly had one of the deeper teams that I’ve assembled.  Three OFers that I left out from the Pirates (Bonds, Fred Clarke, and Paul Waner) would probably be a top 5 OF in their own right.

Are any other three century franchises without a HoF pitcher?

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24 minutes ago, Eephus said:

Are any other three century franchises without a HoF pitcher?

I probably should have limited that statement to position players. I can’t think of any.  The Reds were similarly short on pitchers, but they at least had Seaver and Rixey.

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55 minutes ago, Don Quixote said:

I probably should have limited that statement to position players. I can’t think of any.  The Reds were similarly short on pitchers, but they at least had Seaver and Rixey.

The Bucs had a few HoF pitchers who passed through town on their way up or down. 

The 1900 club had both Jack Chesboro and Rube Waddell on its staff.  They finished second in their first season in Pittsburgh after moving from Louisville.

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