Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Don Quixote

Franchise's All-Time Lineups: Currently: Texas Rangers/Washington Senators

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

CF Hack Wilson - Not many years in Chicago, but they were great and CF in Chicago is a bit of a wasteland otherwise.

Wilson's single season mark of 191 RBIs is one of those records that seems breakable but has stood for 89 years.  No hitter this decade got within 50 of Wilson.  Runs per game were plentiful in the early 30s; even the steroid-era offenses were scoring a half a run per game less than in the year of Wilson's record. 

I think the balance of modern offenses also has something to do with it.  The 1930 Cubs only had two players with more than 15 HRs.  Their offense was built around getting guys on base for Wilson, Hartnett and Kiki Cuyler to knock in.  RBI opportunities tend to be more evenly distributed these days.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great list.

Charlie Root remains the all-time Cubs leader in wins, seventy-nine years after his retirement. His legacy is unfortunately entwined with Babe Ruth (though he denied it to his dying day), but he was a fine pitcher.

Mark Grace was excellent for a long time. He led the decade of the 90's in hits, was a doubles machine, and was a stellar defensive player. He saved Shawon Dunston from being charged with about one hundred throwing errors (no exaggeration). 

Glenn Beckert would be Sandberg's backup. 

Rick Sutcliffe and Derrek Lee deserve a kind of honorable mention for their brief but lasting contribution to the team. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/29/2019 at 9:54 PM, Encyclopedia Brown said:

Great list.

Charlie Root remains the all-time Cubs leader in wins, seventy-nine years after his retirement. His legacy is unfortunately entwined with Babe Ruth (though he denied it to his dying day), but he was a fine pitcher.

Mark Grace was excellent for a long time. He led the decade of the 90's in hits, was a doubles machine, and was a stellar defensive player. He saved Shawon Dunston from being charged with about one hundred throwing errors (no exaggeration). 

Glenn Beckert would be Sandberg's backup. 

Rick Sutcliffe and Derrek Lee deserve a kind of honorable mention for their brief but lasting contribution to the team. 

Good mentions there. I thought about Root, but his numbers looked more due to longevity than elite to me.  I have similar feelings about Beckert -- I think he'd be below Sandberg, Evers, Herman, and Rogers Hornsby for me.  As discussed earlier in this thread, Cubs have a pretty great crop of 2Bs to pick from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Milwaukee Brewers/Seattle Pilots

C Jonathan Lucroy - He really just had one great year, but that is enough for me to put him #1 here.  Other options are BJ Surhoff, or post-peak Ted Simmons, but I’ll get to Simmons later.
1B Cecil Cooper - Tough crowd at 1B. Prince Fielder and George Scott are close here, but Cooper’s longevity puts him over the top.
2B Paul Molitor - Mostly played 3B, but slotting him here as Brewers have more at 3B than 2B. Otherwise, maybe looking at Jim Gantner.
3B Don Money - 4x All-Star that picked up some MVP votes. Top 10 in franchise career WAR.
SS Robin Yount - Pretty easy pick here. Only question was whether to put him at SS or CF. 
LF Ryan Braun - A current player that makes the squad. Looking at their history, I can’t think of anyone else that would go above him. Ben Oglivie may be the backup.
CF Gorman Thomas - Had some good years in the early 80s. Next best option might be Carlos Gomez (with Yount at SS).
RF Christian Yelich - He’s only been in MIL for two years, but I think he’s clearly already the best ever here for MIL, as they have had a lot of turnover in RF in their history. Next best options are Sixto Lezcano or Corey Hart.
DH Ted Simmons - Catcher decision was made easier because Simmons qualified here too.

SP Teddy Higuera
SP Ben Sheets
SP Mike Caldwell
SP Chris Bosio
SP Moose Haas
RP Rollie Fingers

You know it is going to be tough when you look at the franchise career pitching WAR leaders and the top 3 are Higuera, Sheets, and Bosio.  And then even looking at top single season pitching WAR in isolation, the options are about the same.  If they had to win one game, I’d probably start Higuera and then go to a bullpen game with Fingers, Plesac, Hader, Ken Sanders, and F-Rod.

Edited by Don Quixote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

3B Don Money - 4x All-Star that picked up some MVP votes. Top 10 in franchise career WAR.

The position players are almost entirely from the Wallbangers/Bambi's Bombers era or the current club.  Jeff Cirillo is in the frame at 3B if you want to break that up a little.

 

3 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

SP Moose Haas

I'd probably go with Jim Slaton over Moose.  Slaton is the team's all-time leader in most pitching categories although he was pretty much the epitome of a league average innings eater.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Eephus said:

The position players are almost entirely from the Wallbangers/Bambi's Bombers era or the current club.  Jeff Cirillo is in the frame at 3B if you want to break that up a little.

 

I'd probably go with Jim Slaton over Moose.  Slaton is the team's all-time leader in most pitching categories although he was pretty much the epitome of a league average innings eater.

Good call on Cirillo.  Yeah, I had not really thought about it all being from just those eras.  Their numbers are pretty close; I gave edge to Money based on how long he was with the club, but he was more of a drag than an asset by the end of his career.

Slaton and Moose was a bit of a toss-up for me; I'm too young to have watched either.  I gave edge to Moose because he seemed to have a couple of single seasons better than any of Slaton's single seasons.  But Slaton does have the franchise marks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Don Quixote said:

Slaton and Moose was a bit of a toss-up for me; I'm too young to have watched either.  I gave edge to Moose because he seemed to have a couple of single seasons better than any of Slaton's single seasons.  But Slaton does have the franchise marks.

I lived in Milwaukee at the time.  Both guys were decent but needed a lot of run support.  One of Slaton's big contributions was being involved in the trade that brought Ben Oglivie to the Brewers.  Slaton pitched one season for the Tigers (when they won 86 games and finished fifth in a seven team division) before returning to Milwaukee as a free agent.

Slaton is also one of only two Brewers pitchers with a World Series win.  Mike Caldwell is the other. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Pittsburgh Pirates

C Manny Sanguillen - Despite the long history, Pirates don’t really have an all-time great here.  Other options out there are Jason Kendall or Tony Pena from recent history, or George Gibson from the 1900s. But probably the weakest position player in the lineup.

1B Willie Stargell - Mostly played LF, but Pirates are loaded in left. I will stick him here.

2B Bill Mazeroski - He may be one of the worst hitters in the HOF, but given his longevity at the position, difficult to put someone else here. And he has that signature moment from the 1960 World Series that nobody else has.

3B Pie Traynor - Bill Madlock had some good years here too, as did Bobby Bonilla before he became a punchline.  But hard to go against a HOFer (even if, like Mazeroski, his numbers don’t hold up that great) who played 3B for the Pirate more than anybody else.

SS Honus Wagner - Runaway, even though Pirates have another great in Arky Vaughn.

LF Ralph Kiner - Could go Fred Clarke or Barry Bonds here too.  Tough to pick between them all. Stargell would go here if I did not put him at 1B.  

CF Max Carey - Pirates are loaded here too.  Another HOFer in Lloyd Waner another option (I had him originally, but editing to replace with Carey on reflection), and Andrew McCutcheon has a pretty good case here too.

RF Roberto Clemente - Tough to leave out the Paul Waner, but only one can start here.

 

SP Bob Friend

SP Babe Adams

SP Wilbur Cooper

SP John Candelaria

SP Doug Drabek

RP Kent Tekulve

I could go with someone else from early Pirates’ history like Deacon Phillipe or Ray Kremer, or from the 50s like Vern Law to fill out the rotation (absent other considerations,they probably all deserve over Drabek and maybe Candelaria), but I’ll go with Candelaria and Drabek instead to give space for a couple of modern players. And Drabek gives a representative from the post-We are Family era, since I could not find space for Bonds, McCutcheon, or Kendall in the position players.

Roy Face another great RP option, but tiebreaker goes to the glasses.

...I think the Pirates backup team could compete with many of the all-time teams that I’ve assembled.

Edited by Don Quixote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

This only goes back to ~my lifetime, but...

Bench -- Votto -- Morgan -- Larkin -- Rose* -- Eric Davis -- Griffey Jr. -- Frank Robinson

Left off:  Perez, Concepcion, Griffey Sr., George Foster, Dave Parker.

If you like Perez over Davis you could move Rose to LF and put Perez in at third.  All eight are HOFers* if you do.

Pitching is a lot harder.  Tom Seaver...

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Bench -- Votto -- Morgan -- Larkin -- Rose -- Eric Davis -- Griffey Jr. -- Frank Robinson

Left off:  Perez, Concepcion, Griffey Sr., George Foster, Dave Parker.

If you like Perez over Davis you could move Rose to LF and put Perez in at third.  All eight are HOFers if you do.

I was working on my Reds team the other day, and have that one next in my queue. They have a pretty strong team and bench too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

C Manny Sanguillen - Despite the long history, Pirates don’t really have an all-time great here.  Other options out there are Jason Kendall or Tony Pena from recent history, or George Gibson from the 1900s. But probably the weakest position player in the lineup.

I'd probably go with Kendall over Sanguillen because his OBP and baserunning would work better in this offense.  Manny's WAR is helped a lot by the ridiculous number innings he caught per year.   Smokey Burgess also deserves a shout for six solid years in Pittsburgh including 1960.

 

12 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

CF Max Carey - Pirates are loaded here too.  Another HOFer in Lloyd Waner another option (I had him originally, but editing to replace with Carey on reflection), and Andrew McCutcheon has a pretty good case here too.

It would have been a crime for Lloyd Waner to make the all-time team with Paul left on the outside.  Little Poison was a slapdick hitter.  His empty AVG numbers aren't nearly as impressive when you look at them in the context of his peers in the 1930s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/3/2020 at 8:26 AM, Don Quixote said:

SS Robin Yount - Pretty easy pick here. Only question was whether to put him at SS or CF. 

It was mentioned in another thread, but it is baffling that Yount made only three All-Star games in twenty seasons. It wasn't just Trammel and Ripken that blocked him. Rick Burelson, Roy Smalley, Freddie Patek and Craig Reynolds all got picked over Yount in various years.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Eephus said:

I'd probably go with Kendall over Sanguillen because his OBP and baserunning would work better in this offense.  Manny's WAR is helped a lot by the ridiculous number innings he caught per year.   Smokey Burgess also deserves a shout for six solid years in Pittsburgh including 1960.

 

It would have been a crime for Lloyd Waner to make the all-time team with Paul left on the outside.  Little Poison was a slapdick hitter.  His empty AVG numbers aren't nearly as impressive when you look at them in the context of his peers in the 1930s.

Kendall and Sanguillen is definitely a tough one.  Kendall had the better power bat and speed, but I gave a bit of boost to Sanguillen for his defense. It also surprised me a bit how much MVP support Sanguillen received (but may have been attributable to playing on teams with better records).

Paul Waner definitely the superior Waner.  Digging into numbers, Lloyd’s best single-season WAR was 3.6.  Carey’s career SLG and OPS, all around Lloyd Waner’s, but Carey’s NL stolen base mark that lasted until Lou Brock certainly points heavier in his favor.

Edited by Don Quixote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

Paul Waner definitely the superior Waner.  Digging into numbers, Lloyd’s best single-season WAR was 3.6.  Carey’s career SLG and OPS, all around Lloyd Waner’s, but Carey’s NL stolen base mark that lasted until Lou Brock certainly points heavier in his favor.

The big difference between Carey and Lloyd Waner is the era they played in.  Carey played the first half of his career in the deadball era while Waner played in the high scoring 30s.  Their raw OPS is identical, Carey's era and park normalized OPS+ is ten point better than Waner's below par 99.

Neither player would be a Hall of Famer by today's tight induction standards.  Carey's career was comparable to Kenny Lofton's.  I'm a big hall guy and would be perfectly OK with Lofton going to Cooperstown but BBWAA clowns turning in short ballots should take a closer look at the old time players who are already in.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

Kendall and Sanguillen is definitely a tough one.  Kendall had the better power bat and speed, but I gave a bit of boost to Sanguillen for his defense. It also surprised me a bit how much MVP support Sanguillen received (but may have been attributable to playing on teams with better records).

Our knowledge of catcher fielding analytics have changed significantly even from when Kendall was active.  There was no way to measure pitch framing so catchers were evaluated on the available data.  Fielding percentage and assists have less relevance for catchers than for other position players.  Controlling the running game is important and was probably more important during Sanguillen's career but I recall a catcher's throwing arm having a huge impact on his defensive reputation.  We're working with estimated caught stealing statistics prior to 1951. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cincinnati Reds

C Johnny Bench - Ernie Lombardi another HOFer with an MVP to his credit, but Bench clear pick as he may be the best catcher of all-time.
1B Joey Votto - Could put Rose or Perez here, but I’ll save them for other positions.
2B Joe Morgan - Bid McPhee another HOFer who is just behind Morgan in career franchise WAR (but a lot of that because McPhee played 18 years in CIN).
3B Tony Perez - Rose or Perez the only question, but Rose has more positional flexibility.
SS Barry Larkin - Honorable mention to Dave Concepcion, who is only second to Pete Rose in games played in franchise history, but not as elite as Larkin.
LF Frank Robinson - Tough to leave out George Foster, but with Robinson and Rose in my corners, no space for Foster in LF.
CF Vada Pinson - Close between him and Edd Roush here. Honorable mention to Eric Davis and Ken Griffey Jr. But Davis not in Cincy long enough, and Griffey too much trouble staying healthy in Cincy.
RF Pete Rose - Four different places he could go, but I’ll put him here. Next best option probably Ken Griffey Sr.

SP Eppa Rixey
SP Paul Derringer
SP Tom Seaver
SP Jose Rijo
SP Bucky Walters
RP Aroldis Chapman

Reds have a pretty deep group of position players to pick from, but a mostly solid (but elite) group of pitchers.  Rixey the lone HOFer who spent most of their time in Cincy (Seaver mostly outside CIN). Noodles Hahn (the franchise career pitching WAR leader, who had a few great years before his arm gave out due to overuse, like so many other pitchers from the early 1900s), Dolfe Luque, Joe Nuxhall, or Mario Soto could go in here somewhere, but these SPs mostly feel interchangeable.

Tough to compare RPs across eras; Clay Carroll could go there as the closer during the Big Red days, but Aroldis seemed more elite.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

RP Aroldis Chapman

The Reds have had some great relief pitchers.  Sidearmer Ted Abernathy had a 6.2 WAR season in 1967 as a reliever and Bill Henry had that great WIS cookie season.  Jim Brosnan was a much better writer than Bouton.  The Nasty Boys were nasty for a while and Franco, K-Rod, Pedro Borbon and Clay Carroll had their moments as well.  But the Reds career leader in SVs is one of the kings of fantasy crap closers Danny Graves.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Eephus said:

The Reds have had some great relief pitchers.  Sidearmer Ted Abernathy had a 6.2 WAR season in 1967 as a reliever and Bill Henry had that great WIS cookie season.  Jim Brosnan was a much better writer than Bouton.  The Nasty Boys were nasty for a while and Franco, K-Rod, Pedro Borbon and Clay Carroll had their moments as well.  But the Reds career leader in SVs is one of the kings of fantasy crap closers Danny Graves.

Yeah, the Reds have a lot to pick from.  Also thought about Joe Nuxhall there, as he was both a SP/RP for the Reds.  Went with Aroldis because if you only need one RP with a game on the line, I’d go to him, but Nuxhall certainly has the career numbers (albeit boosted by his SP numbers).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

LF Frank Robinson - Tough to leave out George Foster, but with Robinson and Rose in my corners, no space for Foster in LF.
CF Vada Pinson - Close between him and Edd Roush here. Honorable mention to Eric Davis and Ken Griffey Jr. But Davis not in Cincy long enough, and Griffey too much trouble staying healthy in Cincy.

The 1953 team at McClymonds HS in Oakland had a better OF than some all-time franchise teams.  Robinson, Pinson and Curt Flood totaled over 200 career WAR.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Detroit Tigers

C Bill Freehan - A two-person race between Freehan and Lance Parrish for me. Mickey Cochrane and Ivan Rodriguez better players than these two, but I don’t think they played there long enough. Debated going with Parrish due to recency (and not having seen Freehan play), but I think Freehan had a higher peak, including two years where he was Top 5 in Offensive WAR in the AL.
1B Hank Greenberg - I could put him in LF, but he belongs at 1B for the Tigers. Miguel Cabrera and Norm Cash a couple of others that could have been worthy if not for Greenberg, but I can put Cabrera elsewhere.
2B Charlie Gehringer - Lou Whitaker may be fourth in franchise career WAR, but Gehringer is in 3rd.  Only one can make it.
3B George Kell - Tigers are surprisingly weak at 3B, given how loaded the rest of the team is.  Advanced stats don’t seem to have treated him well, but not really a close number two. 
SS Alan Trammell - He seems a pretty clear pick here, as he played the position the longest and had the best numbers. Donnie Bush with some solid years in the deadball era.
LF Bobby Veach - As mentioned, I could have put Greenberg here, but I still like Veach in the lineup.  Put up great years in the deadball era; six seasons in Top 10 WAR among position players. Veach feels like an overlooked player in the Tigers' OF, when he played with Cobb, Crawford, and Heilmann.
CF Ty Cobb - Probably the biggest gap between pick and second option that I’ve seen in this exercise (at least among players that primarily played the position, as Sam Crawford eligible here, but mostly played RF).  After Cobb, probably left seriously considering Chet Lemon.
RF Al Kaline - Sam Crawford and Harry Heilmann a couple of other HOFers here that would make most squads, but Kaline in a league of his own.
DH Miguel Cabrera - Cabrera’s switch to DH last year makes his eligible here.  Tigers have some good options here — Kirk Gibson and Victor Martinez for a couple, and Al Kaline played DH his last year.

SP Hal Newhouser
SP Justin Verlander
SP Tommy Bridges
SP Mickey Lolich
SP Jack Morris
RP John Hiller

Jack Morris and Dizzy Trout the only tough choice here (and could go either way), but I’ll go to Morris to break up the eras a bit, as Trout overlapped with Newhouser and Bridges (pretty sick rotation).  Hooks Dauss an honorable mention as the franchise wins leader.

I was originally thinking Willie Hernandez for RP. I’m not sure I’ll ever understand Willie Hernandez winning both the AL MVP and Cy Young award in 1984, but it will make me forever associate with him as the Tigers’ RP. But the more I read about John Hiller, the more I think Hiller has to be the pick. Hiller’s 1973 season with a 7.9 WAR for a RP is a holy cow number.

Edited by Don Quixote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/4/2020 at 2:48 PM, Don Quixote said:

Pittsburgh Pirates

C Manny Sanguillen - Despite the long history, Pirates don’t really have an all-time great here.  Other options out there are Jason Kendall or Tony Pena from recent history, or George Gibson from the 1900s. But probably the weakest position player in the lineup.

1B Willie Stargell - Mostly played LF, but Pirates are loaded in left. I will stick him here.

2B Bill Mazeroski - He may be one of the worst hitters in the HOF, but given his longevity at the position, difficult to put someone else here. And he has that signature moment from the 1960 World Series that nobody else has.

3B Pie Traynor - Bill Madlock had some good years here too, as did Bobby Bonilla before he became a punchline.  But hard to go against a HOFer (even if, like Mazeroski, his numbers don’t hold up that great) who played 3B for the Pirate more than anybody else.

SS Honus Wagner - Runaway, even though Pirates have another great in Arky Vaughn.

LF Ralph Kiner - Could go Fred Clarke or Barry Bonds here too.  Tough to pick between them all. Stargell would go here if I did not put him at 1B.  

CF Max Carey - Pirates are loaded here too.  Another HOFer in Lloyd Waner another option (I had him originally, but editing to replace with Carey on reflection), and Andrew McCutcheon has a pretty good case here too.

RF Roberto Clemente - Tough to leave out the Paul Waner, but only one can start here.

 

SP Bob Friend

SP Babe Adams

SP Wilbur Cooper

SP John Candelaria

SP Doug Drabek

RP Kent Tekulve

I could go with someone else from early Pirates’ history like Deacon Phillipe or Ray Kremer, or from the 50s like Vern Law to fill out the rotation (absent other considerations,they probably all deserve over Drabek and maybe Candelaria), but I’ll go with Candelaria and Drabek instead to give space for a couple of modern players. And Drabek gives a representative from the post-We are Family era, since I could not find space for Bonds, McCutcheon, or Kendall in the position players.

Roy Face another great RP option, but tiebreaker goes to the glasses.

...I think the Pirates backup team could compete with many of the all-time teams that I’ve assembled.

Van Slyke in CF would work too.

No Dave Parker?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Copeman said:

Van Slyke in CF would work too.

No Dave Parker?

Parker another one of those victims of circumstance, stuck in RF behind Clemente and Paul Waner.  

Van Slyke would definitely work in CF too.  Pirates had a lot of good options in CF (Al Oliver probably gives them 5 deep options).

Edited by Don Quixote
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

3B George Kell - Tigers are surprisingly weak at 3B, given how loaded the rest of the team is.  Advanced stats don’t seem to have treated him well, but not really a close number two. 

Kell is in the HoF but had a HoVG career.

Travis Fryman was a lot better than I remembered. 

Tony Phillips was a 5 win player for his entire five year stay in Detroit.

Excluding Eddie Mathews curtain call in 67-68, Darrell Evans was the best 3B to ever call Tiger Stadium home but he was mostly a 1B/DH type by that stage of his career.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Eephus said:

Kell is in the HoF but had a HoVG career.

Travis Fryman was a lot better than I remembered. 

Tony Phillips was a 5 win player for his entire five year stay in Detroit.

Excluding Eddie Mathews curtain call in 67-68, Darrell Evans was the best 3B to ever call Tiger Stadium home but he was mostly a 1B/DH type by that stage of his career.

 

I noticed after the fact that I could have put Cabrera at 3B, as I forgot he started his Tigers' tenure there.  So, I could probably replace Kell with Cabrera, and then put in Victor Martinez or Kirk Gibson at DH -- but I'm not sure if Kell for Gibson or Martinez is much of an improvement to the lineup.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you get super lenient with position requirements for the Tigers... Charlie Gehringer played 6 career games at 3B, which solves that position and lets Whitaker in.  Harry Heilmann also played 8 games in LF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

or you could put Brandon Inge at 3B and hope he gets enough games at C to keep eligibility

  • Like 4
  • Laughing 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chicago White Sox

C Carlton Fisk - Post-Red Sox prime, but still had a lot of great years on the South Side. Another HOFer in Ray Shalck for backup, who was with White Sox longer, but not as elite as Fisk.

1B Paul Konerko - Frank Thomas another option here.  Dick Allen also had some good years, but I don’t think he was with Chicago long enough.  Konerko was solid but never really elite; however, he is second to Thomas in many franchise marks like HRs and RBIs, so difficult to leave him out.

2B Eddie Collins - Nellie Fox would make most other teams (and is #4 in franchise career WAR for position players), but Collins probably one of the top 5 all-time to play the position.

3B Robin Ventura - Pretty close between Ventura and Willie Kamm. Coin toss to Ventura because it gives me an excuse to post the video of Nolan Ryan pummeling Robin Ventura. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljO5T8lmxS0

SS Luke Appling - An excuse to post the video of Appling hitting a home run at 75 years old off Warren Spahn in an Old-Timers game.  https://twitter.com/bsmile/status/1152181808152403968?s=21.  Luis Aparacio another HOFer who deserves an honorable mention.

LF Shoeless Joe Jackson - It is either a Black Sox or “Mr. White Sox,” Minnie Minoso. Probably the toughest choice.  I really wanted to go with Minoso, but Jackson put up pretty incredible numbers for the deadball era. Minoso getting left out gives me two players in top 5 career franchise WAR position players that don’t make the list. 

CF Johnny Mostil - Despite long history and HOFers all around the lineup, White Sox don’t seem to have a lot here.  Injuries and depression seemed to derail Mostil’s career (including a suicide attempt). Chet Lemon and Lance Johnson among those next up.

RF Harold Baines - Another one that could stick at DH.

DH Frank Thomas - Could have put him at 1B, but I’ll place at DH, so Konerko in my lineup. Jim Thome another option here.

 

SP Ted Lyons

SP Ed Walsh

SP Red Faber

SP Eddie Cicotte

SP Billy Pierce

RP Hoyt Wilhelm

White Sox have had a lot of great arms in their arms in their history, and pretty hard to narrow down. I’ve probably switched between these pitchers about a dozen times.  I’d like to throw in someone like Chris Sale or Mark Buehrle to give a modern arm in the rotation, but I can’t think of which of the five I’d leave out. Billy Pierce gives the squad its lone representative from the 1959 Go-Go Sox team (due to leaving out Fox and Aparacio above). Also tried finding space for Wilbur Wood, who was an innings beast and had two 10+ WAR seasons.  

Wilhelm played with the Sox in his 40-45 age years, but they were some of his best years.  An ERA of 1.92 over six seasons. Bobby Thigpen holds the saves record and would be a good alternate, as would Goose Gossage for his 1975 season.

Edited by Don Quixote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Don Quixote said:

Another HOFer in Ray Shalck for backup, who was with White Sox longer, but not as elite as Fisk.

Ray Schalk is in the Hall in part because he was one of the Clean Sox in 1919.  He was also the premier defensive catcher of his era.

 

1 hour ago, Don Quixote said:

CF Johnny Mostil - Despite long history and HOFers all around the lineup, White Sox don’t seem to have a lot here.  Injuries and depression seemed to derail Mostil’s career (including a suicide attempt). Chet Lemon and Lance Johnson among those next up.

Lemon has been an all-time runner up for two different three century franchises.  He would have been more appreciated had he played in a more analytically aware era.  He certainly wouldn't have been traded straight up for Steve Kemp.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Eephus said:

Lemon has been an all-time runner up for two different three century franchises.  He would have been more appreciated had he played in a more analytically aware era.  He certainly wouldn't have been traded straight up for Steve Kemp.

His OBP and defense certainly would be more appreciated now. I was just reading a stat that he had most career WAR of any player to never receive any MVP votes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Encyclopedia Brown said:

Jack McDowell did not have longevity, but he had an excellent run in mid-90's. 

Voters weren't fans of Stick Figure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/9/2020 at 1:15 PM, Don Quixote said:

Parker another one of those victims of circumstance, stuck in RF behind Clemente and Paul Waner.  

Van Slyke would definitely work in CF too.  Pirates had a lot of good options in CF (Al Oliver probably gives them 5 deep options).

 

3 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

DH Frank Thomas - Could have put him at 1B, but I’ll place at DH, so Konerko in my lineup. Jim Thome another option here..

related...

I get how Frank Thomas gets the Nugenix commercial, but Andy Van Slyke now in there?  His agent deserves an award.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tampa Bay (Devil) Rays

Well, I’ve done some long histories like the Pirates, Reds, Tigers, and White Sox recently. I need to throw in a dud every now and again.

C Toby Hall - Someone has to catch.
1B Carlos Pena - Pena second to Longoria in franchise career HRs.  Fred McGriff some solid years late in his career too.
2B Ben Zobrist - Pretty easy pick to put him on the squad (second in franchise career WAR); only question was position. 
3B Evan Longoria - Franchise career WAR leader by a healthy margin.
SS Julio Lugo - Someone has to play SS. If you want to sub for Jason Bartlett, I won’t argue (but I’m not going to argue much about my Rays’ picks).
LF Carl Crawford - Not much else to go here.
CF Melvin Upton Jr - Kevin Kiermaier has more franchise career WAR, but that is boosted by defense.  I'll go with Upton for a bit more offense in the lineup.
RF Aubrey Huff - Eh, why not?
DH Austin Meadows - Only one full year in Tampa, but I'll go with him.  Another position that I’ve got very little to go with. Either Meadows or Jose Canseco.  If I threw out my arbitrary positional eligibility rule, I'd probably do Kiermaier in CF and put Upton here.

SP David Price
SP James Shields
SP Blake Snell
SP Chris Archer
SP Scott Kazmir
RP Roberto Hernandez

Rotation decently solid considering the short history here. Hernandez leads in saves and games finished, and got some Cy Young votes in 1999.  Rodney or Colome could have cases too.
 

Edited by Don Quixote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

Tampa Bay (Devil) Rays

Well, I’ve done some long histories like the Pirates, Reds, Tigers, and White Sox recently. I need to throw in a dud every now and again.

The Rays front office could take this roster to the Winter Meetings and end up getting Paul Waner and Red Schoendienst in trades.

 

16 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

SP David Price
SP James Shields
SP Blake Snell
SP Chris Archer
SP Scott Kazmir

I'm going to start a write-in campaign for Lurch Hendrickson

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

Tampa Bay (Devil) Rays

C Toby Hall - Someone has to catch.

More egregious, Tim Beckham instead of Buster Posey or Bobby Abreu for Kevin Stocker? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Eephus said:

The Rays front office could take this roster to the Winter Meetings and end up getting Paul Waner and Red Schoendienst in trades.

Maybe I should combine them with some of the defunct teams -- like throw in Old Hoss Radbourn from the Providence Grays.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Encyclopedia Brown said:

More egregious, Tim Beckham instead of Buster Posey or Bobby Abreu for Kevin Stocker? 

Leaving Josh Hamilton unprotected in the Rule 5 draft up there as well. I am working on a Rangers all-time team and Hamilton has a pretty good shot at the CF spot.

Edited by Don Quixote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Texas Rangers/Washington Senators v3.0

Time to get the Rays off the headline here….

C Ivan Rodriguez - All-time leader in franchise career WAR. Surprised that Jim Sundberg is 6th in that category.
1B Rafael Palmeiro - Despite the juice, nobody else really in the conversation here.
2B Ian Kinsler - Fifth in franchise career WAR.
3B Adrian Beltre - Senators/Rangers are relatively deep here for their franchise. Buddy Bell (4th in franchise career WAR) and Ken McMullen a couple of other options.
SS Toby Harrah - ARod more elite, but Harrah had a longer run. And I’ve got some juice already in the lineup. Harrah also helps me spread the eras a bit (and I said in my OP that I sometimes might pick somebody out of respect for the ‘stache). Elvis Andrus has a pretty good case too (and Michael Young for his bat) .
LF Frank Howard - The lone Senator (from this iteration of the Senators) on my squad here. 
CF Josh Hamilton - There’s not a lot of longevity at the position for Texas. According to BREF, the players that have spent the most years as plurality CFer are Don Lock and Oddibe McDowell at 4 each. Lock would be a good alternate.
RF Juan Gonzalez - I think Gonzalez was a bit overrated during his career, but only one that might challenge Gonzalez here is below at DH. Jeff Burroughs seems a bit behind those two.
DH Ruben Sierra - A couple of top 10 MVP votes to his name.

SP Nolan Ryan - 3rd appearance in this thread. I’m not sure if anybody else will be able to claim that.
SP Fergie Jenkins - 2nd appearance.
SP Charlie Hough
SP Kenny Rogers
SP Yu Darvish
RP Jeff Russell

It is pretty close between Darvish and Kevin Brown for me. Darvish did not have many years in Texas, but was more elite.

Close between Russell and Wetteland. Once again, tiebreaker to the ‘stache.
 

Edited by Don Quixote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

3B Adrian Beltre - Senators/Rangers are relatively deep here for their franchise. Buddy Bell (4th in franchise career WAR) and Ken McMullen a couple of other options.

Beltre has to suit up for somebody and the Rangers make the most sense here.

Buddy Bell was an excellent player in his prime.  He averaged 6 WAR over a six year stretch from 1979 to 1984.  His production fell off a cliff right after that in his age 33 season and never recovered.  Playing in Arlington probably didn't help his longevity.  Bell would have been good enough to start at 3B for at least a few three century franchises. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Eephus said:

Beltre has to suit up for somebody and the Rangers make the most sense here.

Buddy Bell was an excellent player in his prime.  He averaged 6 WAR over a six year stretch from 1979 to 1984.  His production fell off a cliff right after that in his age 33 season and never recovered.  Playing in Arlington probably didn't help his longevity.  Bell would have been good enough to start at 3B for at least a few three century franchises. 

Yeah, Bell definitely deserving of many squads. I’d put him above George Kell for the Tigers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Don Quixote said:

Yeah, Bell definitely deserving of many squads. I’d put him above George Kell for the Tigers.

Better than Pie Traynor and Matt Williams (SF years only) too.

Bell was a contemporary of Graig Nettles and Ron Cey.  Bell was the better 3B by modern analytical standards but the other two were probably more highly regarded at the time, in large part because they played for successful big market clubs.

Edited by Eephus
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.