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This is my thinking as well. Really weird to read all this.
Of course. There are lots of other factors as well.
I don't know how to do multi-quotes here, but in your second post in your thread you stated you'd no longer be buying New Belgium. Seems like you're upset, maybe outraged was too strong. But still, does it taste different?
it definitely can taste different if they change anything about the production process.
Not outraged in the least. Just making a different buying decision.I don't know how to do multi-quotes here, but in your second post in your thread you stated you'd no longer be buying New Belgium. Seems like you're upset, maybe outraged was too strong. But still, does it taste different?
But to each their own, gbjb
This is an excellent point / question and one I think about too.
Another part of the interesting question @guru_007 asked.
Good question. For Dogfish Head - Sam Adams, that felt more like a real merger between two independents. Not being acquired by the "international conglomerate". So yes, I'd say different than this deal or an InBev acquisition. Even though those are two huge businesses.
Why are you going to make a different buying decision? If you like the product, and it doesn't change after ownership of the company changes, why would you stop buying it?Not outraged in the least. Just making a different buying decision.
And biggest thing - To each their own, gbjb
With you GB.
If you sold FBG would you want us to abandon our patronage? It just feels like when an underground band goes mainstream and people that like their music choose to not like it anymore solely because they are now more popular and more successful. I love that you prefer to support small businesss when possible--but it shouldn't be done as an automatic protocol. A business changing hands in a large monetization event is not necessarily a bad thing.Not outraged in the least. Just making a different buying decision.
And biggest thing - To each their own, gbjb
With you GB.
One thing that is specific to the beer industry is that there is so much damn good beer out there, its not hard to drop one brand in favor of another for a relatively minor reason (or a more important reason, as the case may be.) Its not like you're depriving yourself of having good beer for trivial reasons.
You answered it here: "ETA - I too prefer to support privately owned small companies over large ones."
I feel like maybe we are just romanticizing these small companies and demonizing large companies for really no reason though.
There was a lot more to the Karbach stink. When they started that brewery it felt like they were angling for a buyout from the very beginning. But they went out of their way to deny it. So when it happened they got more backlash than normal. Especially because it was AB. Then there was the issue of them immediately trying to recruit the St. Arnold's sales team. And of course Chris Shepherd and Kevin Floyd helped to exacerbate it because they felt most betrayed by Karbach. I cringe when I see it on the shelves nationally now. There's a right way and a wrong way to handle these buyouts (which are inevitable if they are going to compete with the big boys) and Karbach handled it the wrong way. Cigar City, on the other hand, is an example of handling it very well. But, they were acquired by Oskar Blues, not meat fisted AB.
I agree that small business owners want to make as much money as possible for themselves and their family, and I would never fault them for that or for selling the business, but I disagree with the bolded. For one thing, I would rather give my money to a family who puts their hard work into their business over giving it to shareholders who are just investing and don't care nearly as much about how the business is run. More importantly, IMO, there are some significant differences between how small family run businesses and publicly traded companies operate, at least in some industries. It's probably different in the beer industry, but in that grocery store I mentioned in another post they have a number of things on their shelves that are there because I asked them to carry it. They have also tried a number of items and brands that I asked them to carry but didn't last because it didn't sell, but at least they listened and tried. There's a real personal touch in my experience. When I go to Shoprite it's the complete opposite - they won't carry anything just because I ask, they have a lot of new employees every time I go so there's no consistency or personal touch, and nobody there really cares if you shop there or not. I appreciate the personal touch and I would rather support the family over millions of shareholders.
What "buyout" of Shiner do you mean?culdeus said:
It was a rumor that went around TX in the mid 90's. Allegedly a Japanese VC firm bought them. But Alvarez owns 100% of Gambrinus and Gambrinus has owned Shiner since the late 80's.
The story I always heard was it's a shell company, front run by Alvarez in name only and he mainly does the back end and disty. In any situation even with Alvarez as front man and whole owner it's not like it's some mom/pop operation.
I'd be interested in facts a bit more than stories people "hear" about buyouts. I still keep an eye on the company and I never noticed any going to "absolute garbage" after some supposed "buyout".
Karbach always struck me as one of those companies that has the T-shirt design done before they create the product.Ron Swanson said:
I didn't know about Cigar City and Oskar Blues. How has that gone? I like both brands. Dales Pale Ale and Jai Alai are both go to's for me and easily available in TN.Ron Swanson said:
Don't live there anymore. I grew up there and still work out of there so still get there at least monthly. As far as I can tell Oskar Blues has helped out Cigar City in some areas they use to struggle mightily...mostly in keeping up with runaway demand for some of their beers other than Jai Alai. Other than my local brewpub CC is my go to and the products are still great. If you ever see White Oak Aged Jai Alai give it a try, along with Guayabera Pale Ale. It's a Citra hopped APA that is just delicious and not as boozy as Jai Alai. As the beer nerds say, "sessionable".
Thanks GB. Will do. I have had the Guayabera Pale Ale and like it.
Beer is a pretty low labor overhead biz.
The local beer in KC boulevard beer also sold to a conglomerate.
I have not been to the Heights location, but I agree the Brenham one is awesome. One of those places like Micklethwaite where they are doing great sides and desserts too. Their beef rib was on par with Mueller's. Good to hear the new one is great too. I'll check it out next month. I went to a different place in the Heights last year that was wonderful meats/sides but I think he has moved. It was called Willows TX BBQ and it was a trailer in front of Shady Acres Saloon. Look's like he's doing some pop-ups and holiday cooking now.
This depends entirely on the goals of ownership. "Demand" does not have to be met. Businesses can make a decision not to grow beyond a certain point despite what the "experts" say. Or businesses can make the decision to only grow as much as cash flow will support. Loans and investors are not a requirement.
Cool. Let me know what you think about the new Truth in the Heights. Interestingly, it sort of fits with this topic. For the folks that don't know, the original Truth BBQ in Brenham is super small. Classic road side spot. A few seats inside and patio with picnic tables. Literally "mom and pop". The mom makes the cakes.
This is similar to the beer industry in that success can often bring more trouble than they realize or expect. In some industries, growth can be extremely difficult to manage, and I think beer and bbq are two good examples. Its not like a ball-bearing factory, where you can just hire more guys and buy more machines to increase your production. Brewing and fermentation is a delicate process, involving chemical interactions of living substances like yeast, sugars, proteins. Things like water chemistry and temperature are extremely important. Scaling up, using bigger but different equipment - that's a very difficult process when you've established a brand and your customers expect perfect consistency in taste, color, and other attributes of the beer. That's why its so impressive when a company like New Belgium or Sierra Nevada can open a second brewery across the country and still deliver a high-quality, consistently excellent product only on a much larger scale. If you're brewing a beer in Ft. Collins, CO, you can't just set up the same process in North Carolina and get the same results. They have to adapt to a different water supply, brand new equipment, possibly different suppliers for their grains and hops. An acquisition by a mega-conglomerate gives them access to a massive market through distribution and marketing relationships, but it doesn't help them quadruple their output overnight.
I think in the case of Shiner, there is minimal way that Alvarez had the 100 Mil + to cough up to do the ultimate scope of what he did, which could have closed in on 180M.
This is a great post and to me is really the issue with mergers and buyouts. If Heady Topper showed up in my grocery store tomorrow and tasted the same, I wouldn't care who owned Alchemist. But increasing distribution by brewing a watered down version of the original would be infuriating.
Yes and no. There are plenty of people who are happy "as-is" with their "little" world and there is no shame in that at all. Then there are people who are ambitious and want the world to taste or experience their product. I think to Joe's point the question is "Is it scalable?" TO bring it back to me, I consider myself to be a pretty good eye doctor, but some of it is the processes I've put in place, the lack of wait times, the staff, etc. and then ME. I can't reproduce ME, but can my processes work with another Doc examining you? It's a tough question, but If you can keep the quality the same with scalability (and obviously the capital investment) then good for you no matter who you are.
I love that place, and the many other great breweries in the area (Wicked Weed - sold to Budweiser, Green Man - looked far more "corporate" last this past summer than id did in previous visits, Sierra Nevada - tell me that place doesn't look corporate, and maybe my favorite location - Oskar Blues). Side note - had no idea that's where you live - beautiful area to be in!
With you GB.
Thanks. This is another post that I think can lead to a bigger and interesting discussion.
Agreed for sure. For all the grief the macro breweries get, it's a pretty amazing feat they can be consistent across the country (and I'm assuming the world). Same with McDonalds. It's easy to bag on McDonalds but the truth is they hit the mark for what they're trying to do about 98% of the time. Which is way better than most companies.
I don't think he's saying that nothing matters beyond the actual product. I feel like you are trivializing our take. Many of us are saying the actual product is what we consider first when it comes to either purchasing or abandoning a product. Your posts so far in this thread for the most part seem to indicate that the nature of the ownership and the size of the company is the only thing that matters to you. Not being confrontational or arguing--but it does feel like you are trivializing the opposing side a bit.
What did they do to change the core product to become mass market? Is their Bock still not their primary beer?
