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RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire, KC (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter BigTex
- Start date
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
What I am saying is they probably have an intention on use if spending a first on him. Next...you either believe in his ability to put his talent to that intended use or not.
rockaction
Footballguy
Speed score is garbage. Well that's a new one. Because that's what that post was largely about. Pulled straight from Football Outsiders's predictive articles. So okay, Football Outsiders doesn't like him. Nobody liked him over fifth RB in the draft but Mike Clay. But he's a surefire one now that he's been picked?
Sounds like the hive mind is in full effect here. Enjoy your shiny new fire hydrant. I hear it moves (sort of).
barackdhouse
Footballguy
I have no idea why this thread sucks so bad, but it really does.
rockaction
Footballguy
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Ha, CEH is apparently a touchy subject.
EVERYONE agrees he landed on a prolific offense. SOME do not think he is fast enough. SOME think he is too small to play the position. SOME question why he had only one year of production. SOME think Damien Williams is a really good running back.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Indeed. And so did the other guys I got with the picks I traded into later.
Aren't you the one that also keeps bemoaning having the first pick? Why is that?
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Because it is a tight group of prospects in my opinion. Pre-draft I had Ceedee at the top and now I trying to trade down to make that happen. I don't dislike CEH, I think he will be a good football player and may end up taking him. I am just a receiver first guy in dynasty league. RB's tend to have a short shelf like. My first tier is CEH and Lamb, so it will be one of those dudes if I can't move down.
rockaction
Footballguy
Last time this happened to me in the SP (and why I started posting less) was Eddie Lacy. Assured by everyone I had been wrong on Lacy, the only thing for me to do was apologize and leave his threads because a bunch of internet know-it-alls saw Lacy's one good year as proof that his questioners had been wrong about him.
I'm sick watching it again. Here's a guy who is 5'7", 210, with a lousy speed score and somehow I'm the troublemaker know-nothing in here because I won't trust one year of game highlights from defenses clearly geared to stop other parts of an offense rather than the underneath passing game.
#### this. I'm dropping the mic and leaving. You can have your precious 1.01.
It's a ####ty pick.
I'm sick watching it again. Here's a guy who is 5'7", 210, with a lousy speed score and somehow I'm the troublemaker know-nothing in here because I won't trust one year of game highlights from defenses clearly geared to stop other parts of an offense rather than the underneath passing game.
#### this. I'm dropping the mic and leaving. You can have your precious 1.01.
It's a ####ty pick.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I do expect Damien to temper things a bit this year, at least early on. Reid tends to ease in rookie RBs except with Hunt when his hand was forced by Ware's injury.
Long-term I have no concerns about CEH's workload. Reid has always preferred a clear lead back when he's had anyone even remotely capable of handling that job.
Long-term I have no concerns about CEH's workload. Reid has always preferred a clear lead back when he's had anyone even remotely capable of handling that job.
rockaction
Footballguy
Not you, King Of The Jungle. Just in general. Arguing this does no good for blood pressure.
If taking a hardline stance against a prospect (that appears as a no brainer top 2-3 pick at worst) as the 1.01 impacts your blood pressure, then I think you have bigger issues to worry about than CEHs lousy speed score.
Boston
Footballguy
Could not agree with this more...last year there were guys questioning Jacobs workload but it was so easy to see...Damien Harris was a quality 4-year RB and Najee was the the #1 RB recruit in the nation who has a legit shot at winning the Heisman this year...it is really not difficult to see why he did not get all the touches...I see something similar with Ruggs...the Bama WR stable had Jeudy, Smith and Waddle as well...there were probably four first round picks playing WR at that position last year...the times are changing where programs like Bama, LSU and Clemson get so much high-end talent that some of the guys may put up better pro numbers then college numbers.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, I don't think so. If anyone had followed the thread, the yeasaying is the constant, not the hardline naysaying.
EBF
Footballguy
His height isn't necessarily a bad thing and the speed score doesn't factor in BMI, so is pretty misleading for players who are either very tall or very short. These are things that I pointed out with the Sproles/MJD/Rice post. I would reconsider some of the extreme skepticism because Clyde looks pretty good in a lot of ways.
I don't even have a dog in this race. Actually, Dobbins and Swift are the only prominent rookie RBs that I own in any dynasty leagues. Clyde's highlights are clearly more impressive, he was picked higher, and he landed in a better situation. Painting it like everyone else is the crazy one when he checks so many of the boxes seems silly, and just because you may have been down on Eddie Lacy (pretty random name) doesn't mean you're right in this case. They are two very different guys.
I've had a pretty decent hit rate when I've put the chips in the middle on a top tier RB prospect and I think Clyde is likely to be solid. The lack of sheer stopwatch speed is really the only thing keeping him from being a slam dunk, and 4.60 isn't that terrible for a back with his bulk/power. Ingram/Benson had solid careers with a similar combine profile and Clyde is probably more explosive on the field than either of them.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
You need to calm it a bit. First I know you were just passing along info and I was calling the blurb garbage and not your take. Most of that blurb was garbage and I've already listed some of the seasons why. I do agree that the speed score metric has some merit but I have never been big on analytics when it comes to football. The sport is really not designed for it,
Sorry this topic seems to agitate you so much - you know I love 'ya.
EBF
Footballguy
Kamara got so little PT at Bama that he had to transfer outright.
It seems like a really weird thing to harp on.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I don't know when you took your position but Lacy was very good for a number of years until he ate himself out of the league.
Right, and you’re letting the yeasaying about a magic football player affect your blood pressure because by God all those people are morons! Odd. Good luck in your quest kind sir.
rockaction
Footballguy
Lacy had two good/above average years. He didn't even last three effective years in the league, which might be the standard, anyway (lasting only two good years, that is). He then ate himself out of the league like many of us predicted when we called him overweight. So it's not as cut-and-dry as one good year, but it's close.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LacyEd00.htm
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King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I am not a 100% sold on CEH being an elite back by any means but feel pretty confident based on what I have seen he will be in the league for a long time. But the problem is we can say that about all of the prospects this year. His speed wasn't a problem against the SEC but he is definitely not a burner. I even have questioned his power. Things I like: Chiefs, pass catcher, lateral agility, good showing against stiff competition. Things I don't like: not ideal size, not ideal speed. Thing I am unsure of: workload and use, pass pro.
I get both sides, but this is what we do every year with most prospects (minus the Barkley's of the world).
rockaction
Footballguy
And in return. I'm not personalizing it, hopefully. I'm just flummoxed over the pooh-poohing of tangible measurements all of sudden, from everything up to and including forty times. It's like the anti-deduction crowd in here, replete with only sensory empirical observations.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I wouldn't say the 40 is completely unimportant but some of these guys just can't get the technique (out of the blocks) down correctly. He did not appear slow on the field playing in a Conference that has some NFL level defenses. Some players look slow on the field. Helaire does not.
…...and they don't play football in shorts and tank tops. Track speed and football speed don't always correlate......in both directions
rockaction
Footballguy
Draft capital is important but just ask Corey Davis, Laquon Treadwell, and others whether it's the be-all end-all. Teams make mistakes. They try their best to accommodate that player with the higher draft capital, but sometimes it's a lost cause.“But he was a first round pick” seems to be the only thing that matters here
I think we are all just clamoring for any in person football news/action. Hard to make any deductions when all we have is info 4 weeks old and coaches excited about a player they haven’t even seen in practice yet
Regardless, CEH may be a useful player for exactly what they want him to be. The questions are: Does that give him volume? What does his use mean for fantasy scores?
That's what nobody can answer yet.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Wow. You've become the king of straw man arguments. Not one person has used that as the only reason. NOT ONE.“But he was a first round pick” seems to be the only thing that matters here
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Dude. It's not your take. It's the fact that you have to repeat it every three posts. Like seriously your opinion is valid but noted AF.
rockaction
Footballguy
I suppose restating for clarity is unnecessary, then?
Seriously, all I did was post a negative article about his speed score and another about his low pass pro grade and this happens. I'd never posted those before, so I hardly think that was a repeat.
Once it gets down to it, yes, then repetitive. But to poke the bear only requires articles by guys who measure this stuff for a living, so...bear poked.
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rockaction
Footballguy
They're only going to send him deep. They've got other guys for volume.
They're only going to use him in certain situations, which will cut down on his volume.
Sounds similar, but it depends what consensus likes.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I’m sure this has been explained in this thread before - and since you know football I’m sure you also know that a field stretcher at WR is very important in NFL terms but doesn’t always translate to fantasy success. I wouldn’t argue with anyone that had Ruggs as their top WR though.
Theres just way too much to unpack here and it’s all been explained over numerous pages but if you want to stick to knocking down straw men have at it.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
why does everybody take this stuff so personal.....the very existence of this board and the threads in it.... is for stuff like this......it's not rocket science that will save the world...so if we end up getting it wrong one way or the other....life will go on.....its fake football....
and we are not allowed to come back on these boards with "I told you so's"......so everybody can just relax.....there is some good stuff in here on both sides....at some point you will have to just plant your flag and roll with it.....until then there really is no right or wrong side that anybody can prove.....not everyone will agree and thats ok...
and we are not allowed to come back on these boards with "I told you so's"......so everybody can just relax.....there is some good stuff in here on both sides....at some point you will have to just plant your flag and roll with it.....until then there really is no right or wrong side that anybody can prove.....not everyone will agree and thats ok...
Nope and I'm already pretty much done pointing out he was a lot of people's top 3 ranked RB BEFORE the NFL draft ever happened and now we got people saying if you are high on him you are some kind of sheep just blindly following his draft capital. I mean it's ok to not like him, really, I just hate revisionist history.
rockaction
Footballguy
I agree with this. My passion shines through because I love this stuff and want my fake football team to be the best that it can be. For some reason. For what reason that is, I won't know until my next psych check-up. Hwarf.
Carry on. I'm a big fan of this board, a big fan of you all.
JackReacher
Footballguy
Last I looked, the straight up poll between CEH and JT for 1.1 on DLF board still has JT in front. So maybe a half-hive?
JackReacher
Footballguy
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I guess my thing with this class is I had JT, Dobbins, CEH, Lamb, and Jeudy all pretty close before the draft. So after the landing spots were determined it became a factor to help differentiate.
JackReacher
Footballguy
I was fading JT pre-draft (we’ll see how that works out), and had Swift top of my board. But CEH became my 1.1 seconds after KC picked him. I watched a ton of LSU ball last year so I was well aware of him so it was not a hive move up for me.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Yes a pass catching RB is very valuable in ppr fantasy leagues but CEH also ran for a ton of yards last season.
When was the last time an NFL team used a first round pick on a back that they only wanted to use as a third down back?
When was the last time an Andy Reid RB didn’t see overall volume?
Who is getting goal-line carries in KC?.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Whenever I would watch LSU CEH caught my eye. Everyone was focused on Burrow and the receivers but I always found myself wondering who might this little engine who could be....
Honestly I don't see an issue jumping a guy up from 5 to 1 because landing spot is kind of huge nor do I see an issue going other way and taking a guy from 1 to 5 because you just don't like it. Not what happened with me with CEH but I think it often makes a lot of sense to disabuse yourself from your previous thoughts on a player when you can start to think about him in a certain scheme and get an idea how much a team thinks about him.
Thank you and yes I did plant my flag on these boards and with you in a private message. And as only @Dez, god and I guess my IT guy at work would know since we chat by email sometimes but the night before the NFL draft I sent him emails not only saying how high I was on CEH but specifically that I was wrestling with CEH or Swift as my RB1. But I did not get there on my own either, I got helped by following ex-NFL scouts who put him on my radar, talked him up, and the video homework I did on him sold me.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
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JackReacher
Footballguy
Certainly tough to project, and Williams seems to do well on the GL, but CEH is a tough son-of-a-gun. I believe EBF made the Ray Rice comp; that’s what CEH owners hope he can become on GL.
Daniel Jeremiahs #2, Bucky Brooks #3 I believe.
I listened to Bryan Broadhaus on a predraft podcast, ex-Eagle GM an NFL scout now based in Dallas for those that don't know, and he never gave a ranking but said based on film he liked CEH more then Taylor and thought most scouts would as well.
Again it's all good if people don't like CEH, just wish this tired false narrative of people only liking him post-NFL draft would stop.
How many GL opportunities has KC implemented a single goal line back during the last couple years? I honestly don't know but my impression is that based on their offense (using jet sweeps or shovel passes for example) that a true GL back is not critical for them so CEH may not really need to be a prototypical GL back to gain that value.Dr. BD said:
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EBF
Footballguy
I'm not on board with that particular point, and I tried to explain why with the earlier BMI post.King of the Jungle said:
As I said, I don't think "ideal size" is correctly understood by the casual Internet scouting community. People tend to look too much at height or weight alone, and not the combination of those two traits. This is how Tee Higgins (a skinny WR with a very low weight for his height) gets labeled a "big" WR while Clyde gets labeled "undersized" despite having an above average frame in terms of bulk and thickness.
I'm struggling to find Clyde's exact height because some of the numbers online vary, but Wiki says 5' 7.25" and 207 pounds, so I'll go with that. That would be good for a BMI of 32.2, which is one of the biggest numbers of a first round RB drafted in recent memory.
Jonathan Stewart - 33.5
Trent Richardson - 33.5
Doug Martin - 32.7
Clyde Edwards-Helaire - 32.2
Rashard Mendenhall - 32.2
Leonard Fournette - 32.1
Mark Ingram - 31.7
Saquon Barkley - 31.6
Josh Jacobs - 31.6
Ronnie Brown - 31.4
Cedric Benson - 31.4
Pound for pound, he is actually bigger than people like Lynch, Gurley, Fournette, and even Saquon.
In general, bigger players don't need as much speed to thrive in the NFL as leaner players, which is good news for his 4.60 time. Martin, Benson, and Ingram were all within 0.05 seconds of that time with similar frames, and all had decent-to-good NFL careers. The fact that Clyde broke a lot of big plays in college also helps alleviate concern here. His speed may not be ideal, but it's likely not the doomsday neon red flag some are portraying it as. People who merely say "207/4.6" are missing the fact that his frame is yoked for his height, so he's not actually "small" at all, but much closer in spirit and style to "big" backs like Ricky, Saquon, Stewart, etc. This is why I think you can basically throw out the speed score. It's almost completely irrelevant for a player this short.
I used to be a big fan of raw size/speed, but often times with the bigger backs you sacrifice lateral quickness and elusiveness. Stewart was a solid pro back, maybe even a very good one, but he didn't have a great deal of shake or wiggle. Mendenhall wasn't very elusive either. Ditto Fournette.
This is an area where Clyde shines. For a RB with a massive frame, he has unusual instant cutting ability. He's the most elusive back in this draft and the best back in this class at making sharp cuts at high speed. That trait almost always translates well to the next level. It's probably the #1 thing I look for in a RB prospect and Clyde does some silly stuff in this category. His ability here is reminiscent of pro standouts like Rice, Drake, Barkley, M Sanders, Lynch, Jacobs, and Mixon. Effortless east-west cuts. He may not have the sheer straight-line burst of some of those guys and that's part of what keeps him from being a top 10 overall type of prospect, but the overall combination of plus size, plus quickness, and adequate speed is pretty compelling.
I'm repeating myself here, but I think you're getting something like a Ray Rice/Mark Ingram mash-up. The lack of top speed keeps him out of can't-miss freak territory, but I'm predicting an overall impact and talent level similar to Josh Jacobs, except Clyde has the luxury of playing for a team that should score a lot more. I feel like he's actually one of the safer and less mysterious prospects in this draft, and a guy I'm comfortable going on record to endorse.
