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Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2020: Semifinalists (2 Viewers)

Yogibear

Yogibear

Footballguy
I meant to post this earlier in the week, but the list of 25 semifinalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2020 was released earlier this week.  Here's the list:

Steve Atwater

Carl Banks

Ronde Barber

Tony Boselli

Isaac Bruce

LeRoy Butler

Alan Faneca

Torry Holt

Steve Hutchinson

Edgerrin James

John Lynch

Clay Matthews Jr.

Sam Mills

Troy Polamalu

Simeon Rice

Richard Seymour

Steve Tasker

Fred Taylor

Zach Thomas

Hines Ward

Ricky Watters

Reggie Wayne

Patrick Willis

Darren Woodson

Bryant Young

Keep in mind, these are the Modern-Era Semifinalists that are eligible for the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2020.  There will be 15 Senior Nominees, but those names have yet to be revealed.  Of the 25 names listed above, who do you think has the best chance of getting into Canton in 2020?

 
daveR said:
I'd love to see this in poll format.  Vote for as many as you think deserve it...
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The problem with that is a lot of posters have no clue about some of these players.  Unless you're an NFL history buff you're probably only going to know about players you watched.

 
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I am kind of surprised Boselli has not made it yet, although he had a very short career and never played on a team that won a Super Bowl (which seems to always help lineman).  I think he will make it eventually, and this could be the year. 

Polamalu looks like the most obvious lock. 

Isaac Bruce should have made it already, so hopefully this is the year.  

 
I will pick one that shouldn't make it - Steve Tasker

As a WR, his 13 year career amounted to 51 catches, so I give him little to no credit for that.  He was an average kick/punt returner, with no TD's in only 76 attempts, so he gets little to no credit for that.  Is being a great special teams cover man enough to make the Hall?  In the end, that's all he was.

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
I’ve watched all of these guys. And I’m not old :oldunsure:
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I agree, not too many ancient players in that list, but there are posters here who weren't born when Carl Banks played, or old enough to watch the NFL.

 
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Is there a different list for the NFL 100 special class? IIRC, they can take an extra 10 veterans, coaches, and contributors this year.

 
No QB's is interesting, though I can't think of anybody eligible who I would put in, probably not until Manning in 2021.

I preface this by saying I'm a Bears fan. I think both Zach Thomas and Patrick Willis were better than Brian Urlacher. 

Johnny Robinson was the biggest glaring omission from the HOF until last year, that is now his teammate Jim Tyrer. 

Fred Taylor, Ricky Watters, Isaac Bruce, Steve Tasker, Hines Ward, and Clay Matthews are guys I have trouble even seeing cases for. 

I'd say yes to: Boselli, Faneca, Hutchinson, Seymour, Thomas, Willis, Barber, Butler, Polamalu

I'd say no to: Edge, Taylor, Watters, Bruce, Holt, Tasker, Ward, Wayne, Rice, Young, Banks, Matthews, Mills, Atwater, Lynch

Senior Candidates I'd vote for: Del Shofner, Jim Tyrer, Chuck Howley, Larry Grantham, Jimmy Patton

 
JohnnyU said:
Did you know that Howley is still the only player in NFL history to win Super Bowl MVP (SB V) from a losing team?  
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Yep. Doubly impressive as a defensive player as well.

Thurman Thomas should have in Super Bowl XXV, and likely would have if Norwood's kick had been good. 

 
travdogg said:
Fred Taylor, Ricky Watters, Isaac Bruce, Steve Tasker, Hines Ward, and Clay Matthews are guys I have trouble even seeing cases for. 

I'd say yes to: Boselli, Faneca, Hutchinson, Seymour, Thomas, Willis, Barber, Butler, Polamalu

I'd say no to: Edge, Taylor, Watters, Bruce, Holt, Tasker, Ward, Wayne, Rice, Young, Banks, Matthews, Mills, Atwater, Lynch
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Taylor, Watters, Bruce, Wayne and Ward are in the good-but-not-quite-HOF-material category. Yes I know that Hines Ward was the greatest blocking receiver of all time, yada yada yada, but it's not called the Hall Of Blocking.

Torry Holt had 6-consecutive 1300-yard seasons. The only other receiver who had more in his entire career was Jerry Rice. It's true that Holt benefited from playing with Kurt Warner...but he also had the likes of Jamie Martin and Marc Bulger throwing to him for significant portions of his career.

 
Surprising to see some saying Bruce was not good enough.  His lack of All-Pros work against him, but not only he is 5th all-time in receiving yards, he was a key piece of the Greatest Show on Turf, and caught the winning TD in Super Bowl 34 with an amazing play, adjusting to an underthrown ball due to Warner getting hit as he was throwing the ball, and then weaving his way into the end zone.  If a WR on the Steelers, Cowboys or one of the NY or LA teams had a career like that, he would have been in on the first or second ballot. 

 
Yogibear said:
I meant to post this earlier in the week, but the list of 25 semifinalists for the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2020 was released earlier this week.  Here's the list:

Steve Atwater

Carl Banks

Ronde Barber

Tony Boselli

Isaac Bruce

LeRoy Butler

Alan Faneca

Torry Holt

Steve Hutchinson

Edgerrin James

John Lynch

Clay Matthews Jr.

Sam Mills

Troy Polamalu

Simeon Rice

Richard Seymour

Steve Tasker

Fred Taylor

Zach Thomas

Hines Ward

Ricky Watters

Reggie Wayne

Patrick Willis

Darren Woodson

Bryant Young

Keep in mind, these are the Modern-Era Semifinalists that are eligible for the Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2020.  There will be 15 Senior Nominees, but those names have yet to be revealed.  Of the 25 names listed above, who do you think has the best chance of getting into Canton in 2020?
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Bolded the ones I feel are most deserving.  As far as who actually gets in, I feel like Bruce and Holt are going to cannibalize each other’s votes and come up short even thouh both belong in my opinion.  One of Faneca or Hutchinson should get in, both are deserving...but could be some cannibalizing going on there too unless the voters agree to send one now and one next year.

Willis could lose some votes for lack of longevity...they may make him wait a bit but he gets in at some point.

Polamalu, Boselli and Lynch should be locks for this year’s class.  Add one of the OL, and either Barber or a WR and we have our 5.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Surprising to see some saying Bruce was not good enough.  His lack of All-Pros work against him, but not only he is 5th all-time in receiving yards, he was a key piece of the Greatest Show on Turf, and caught the winning TD in Super Bowl 34 with an amazing play, adjusting to an underthrown ball due to Warner getting hit as he was throwing the ball, and then weaving his way into the end zone.  If a WR on the Steelers, Cowboys or one of the NY or LA teams had a career like that, he would have been in on the first or second ballot. 
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My case against Bruce is similar to my case against Gore. There are a whole lot of empty calorie seasons tacked on at the end, but I never felt Bruce was a top WR, and the lack of 1st team all-pros(in addition to only 4 pro bowls) tends to back that up. 

 It also doesn't help that Torry Holt came in and by year 2 was better than Bruce. I'd vote against both Rams WR's, but I think Holt was the better of the 2. 

Bruce was a key piece of the greatest show on turf, but I'd probably call him the 5th most important part behind Faulk, Pace, Warner, and eventually Holt.

His amazing play in the Super Bowl was great, but not enough for me. I know Lynn Swann is in for basically just his Super Bowl performance, but I dislike the idea of using the logic of, "well this guy made it, so why not this guy?" just seems to compound existing mistakes.

 
travdogg said:
My case against Bruce is similar to my case against Gore. There are a whole lot of empty calorie seasons tacked on at the end, but I never felt Bruce was a top WR, and the lack of 1st team all-pros(in addition to only 4 pro bowls) tends to back that up. 

 It also doesn't help that Torry Holt came in and by year 2 was better than Bruce. I'd vote against both Rams WR's, but I think Holt was the better of the 2. 

Bruce was a key piece of the greatest show on turf, but I'd probably call him the 5th most important part behind Faulk, Pace, Warner, and eventually Holt.

His amazing play in the Super Bowl was great, but not enough for me. I know Lynn Swann is in for basically just his Super Bowl performance, but I dislike the idea of using the logic of, "well this guy made it, so why not this guy?" just seems to compound existing mistakes.
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I agree with your last statement, but I didn't say anything about Lynn Swann; I just think the Super Bowl-winning TD is a big tiebreaker in his favor.  The lack of All-Pros, as I said before, is a mark against him for sure, but 91 receiving touchdowns (which are harder to get than rushing touchdowns) is pretty stellar.  Only 9 WR's in NFL history have more than that, and I believe all are in the Hall of Fame (or will be, if we can assume Larry Fitz will make it). 

 
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Ghost Rider said:
I agree with your last statement, but I didn't say anything about Lynn Swann; I just think the Super Bowl-winning TD is a big tiebreaker in his favor.  The lack of All-Pros, as I said before, is a mark against him for sure, but 91 receiving touchdowns (which are harder to get than rushing touchdowns) is pretty stellar.  Only 9 WR's in NFL history have more than that, and I believe all are in the Hall of Fame (or will be, if we can assume Larry Fitz will make it). 
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I know you didn't mention Swann, I was just using him as sort of the Joe Namath of WR's. The, "if this guy is in, why not this guy?" litmus test level player.

In regards to Bruce(and Gore, because I'm consistent) it boils down to me just not caring about career counting stats that much. Career receiving TD's and yards mean very little to me, when a guy played 223 games. That is basically 14 full seasons. That comes out to an average of a little over 6 TD's per season. 

This will blasphemy to some, but I think Larry Fitzgerald is pretty overrated too. I just don't think guys should be rewarded for hanging around, and compiling average seasons, when better players retired earlier. Sterling Sharpe was a better WR than Isaac Bruce, and Calvin Johnson was a better WR than Larry Fitzgerald, at least in my opinion.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Is there a different list for the NFL 100 special class? IIRC, they can take an extra 10 veterans, coaches, and contributors this year.
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What's actually going to happen this year is there'll be 5 modern-era nominees, along with 15 senior nominees, coaches and contributors for 2020.

Some of the Senior Nominees I'd like to see in are: Tom Sestak, Gene "Big Daddy" Lipscomb, Donnie Shell, Jerrel Wilson, Billy "White Shoes" Johnson.

However, I'm not sure if White Shoes would count due to the fact that he was listed as a return specialist, and there isn't a special wing for those guys.

I do know that Sestak and Lipscomb were defensive tackles, Donnie Shell was a safety, and Jerrel Wilson was a punter.  Why none of those guys are in yet is beyond me.

 
Another guy that could be a Senior Nominee who should be inducted in 2020 is Ron Kramer.  In case you don't know about Ron Kramer, he was a tight end that played with the Packers and the Lions in the late '50s and early '60s.  He made the Pro Bowl two times, and was named to the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team in 1969.

 
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travdogg said:
Sterling Sharpe was a better WR than Isaac Bruce, and Calvin Johnson was a better WR than Larry Fitzgerald, at least in my opinion.
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That's interesting. I'd tend to agree with the statement, but I wonder what does that mean for the Hall of Fame and what role should longevity play in the HoF? 

Isn't that an argument across all sports, and sort of a fundamental one?  

 
travdogg said:
I know you didn't mention Swann, I was just using him as sort of the Joe Namath of WR's. The, "if this guy is in, why not this guy?" litmus test level player.

In regards to Bruce(and Gore, because I'm consistent) it boils down to me just not caring about career counting stats that much. Career receiving TD's and yards mean very little to me, when a guy played 223 games. That is basically 14 full seasons. That comes out to an average of a little over 6 TD's per season. 

This will blasphemy to some, but I think Larry Fitzgerald is pretty overrated too. I just don't think guys should be rewarded for hanging around, and compiling average seasons, when better players retired earlier. Sterling Sharpe was a better WR than Isaac Bruce, and Calvin Johnson was a better WR than Larry Fitzgerald, at least in my opinion.
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Won't disagree with you regarding the WRs.  Although a lot of us still hold Fitz in high regard.  

Maybe I'm being inconsistent, or maybe just drawing a line in the Sand, but I'd put Gore in but not Bruce. Part of that is giving RBs more credit for longevity, part of it is that Bruce wasn't a top 3 player on his own team most of his career, partly that Gore is #4 in a meaningful category (total yards from scrimmage) and unlikely to fall any time soon, while Bruce is #19.  

 
[scooter] said:
Taylor, Watters, Bruce, Wayne and Ward are in the good-but-not-quite-HOF-material category. Yes I know that Hines Ward was the greatest blocking receiver of all time, yada yada yada, but it's not called the Hall Of Blocking.

Torry Holt had 6-consecutive 1300-yard seasons. The only other receiver who had more in his entire career was Jerry Rice. It's true that Holt benefited from playing with Kurt Warner...but he also had the likes of Jamie Martin and Marc Bulger throwing to him for significant portions of his career.
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As a Steelers fan I agree with this.  Ward was a very good receiver and devastating blocker.  To me is right on the cusp but does not belong in HoF.   

 
travdogg said:
This will blasphemy to some, but I think Larry Fitzgerald is pretty overrated too. I just don't think guys should be rewarded for hanging around, and compiling average seasons, when better players retired earlier. Sterling Sharpe was a better WR than Isaac Bruce, and Calvin Johnson was a better WR than Larry Fitzgerald, at least in my opinion.
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For a short time Fitz was probably the best WR in football but it was very brief.  He's had some pretty bad QBs throwing to him but so did Hines Ward for most of his career.  Fitz will get in but I kind of agree with you.

 
travdogg said:
This will blasphemy to some, but I think Larry Fitzgerald is pretty overrated too. I just don't think guys should be rewarded for hanging around, and compiling average seasons, when better players retired earlier. Sterling Sharpe was a better WR than Isaac Bruce, and Calvin Johnson was a better WR than Larry Fitzgerald, at least in my opinion.
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Ignoring that they didn't play in the same era / at the same time, here are each player's best 5 seasons in each category added together . . .

Fitz 528-6875-55
Bruce 458-7047-48
Megatron 468-7682-61
Sharpe 473-6382-60

It's hard to really evaluate those out of context. Sharpe didn't play many years, so his totals jump out (only played 7 years . . . in an era not really known for inflated passing numbers). Bruce's best season was the crazy 1995 year (119-1781-13). That year featured 9 players with 100+ receptions, 6 guys with 1400+ receiving yards, and 11 players with 10+ receiving TD. Even though Bruce had a phenomenal season, he did not lead the league in any of those categories (4th-2nd-6th). Johnson had some great years on a team that generally didn't do anything . . . but he did have a playoff game for the ages (12-211-2 against the Saints).

Fitz has had 4 seasons with 1400 yards receiving and one more at 1200+. He also has been on a predominantly horrible team. He also had maybe the greatest single post season from a receiver ever (30-546-7 in 2008). IMO, Fitz was elite early on and compiler later on . . . but he was elite at one point. He's harder to judge because there are more receivers from the recent generation putting up crazy numbers.

 
rockaction said:
That's interesting. I'd tend to agree with the statement, but I wonder what does that mean for the Hall of Fame and what role should longevity play in the HoF? 

Isn't that an argument across all sports, and sort of a fundamental one?  
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Ideally longevity would only be relevant to players who continued to play at an elite level. For instance, a 12 year career of being an above average starter, shouldn't even be on the HOF radar. But a 3 year stretch of being the best guy at your position, but then little else, should be in my opinion. 

I'm a big believer that peak greatness is what matters the most. I look at it like this, if you were running a team, would you rather win a Super Bowl, or have say, 8 straight winning seasons? I think everyone would pick the Super Bowl, because it is a bigger goal. So why when we evaluate players, do we give so much value to that longer sustained goodness, and seemingly look down upon short term greatness?

Godsbrother said:
For a short time Fitz was probably the best WR in football but it was very brief.  He's had some pretty bad QBs throwing to him but so did Hines Ward for most of his career.  Fitz will get in but I kind of agree with you.
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I'm 100% sure Fitz will get in. He also I think benefits from being about as likable a WR in NFL history. He's always been charitable, and perhaps more importantly, super media friendly. That said, he's not really on my personal radar as a HOF WR. I'm not sure he was the best WR at any point. Steve Smith was better in the mid-2000's in my opinion, Andre Johnson was better in the late 2000's, and Calvin was better in the early 2010's. 

I also don't like the bad QB narrative, I mean, yes he had Matt Leinart and John Skelton for stretches, but he also had Kurt Warner and Carson Palmer for larger ones. I'd take Fitz's career QB situation ahead of Steve Smith's for example.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Ignoring that they didn't play in the same era / at the same time, here are each player's best 5 seasons in each category added together . . .

Fitz 528-6875-55
Bruce 458-7047-48
Megatron 468-7682-61
Sharpe 473-6382-60

It's hard to really evaluate those out of context. Sharpe didn't play many years, so his totals jump out (only played 7 years . . . in an era not really known for inflated passing numbers). Bruce's best season was the crazy 1995 year (119-1781-13). That year featured 9 players with 100+ receptions, 6 guys with 1400+ receiving yards, and 11 players with 10+ receiving TD. Even though Bruce had a phenomenal season, he did not lead the league in any of those categories (4th-2nd-6th). Johnson had some great years on a team that generally didn't do anything . . . but he did have a playoff game for the ages (12-211-2 against the Saints).

Fitz has had 4 seasons with 1400 yards receiving and one more at 1200+. He also has been on a predominantly horrible team. He also had maybe the greatest single post season from a receiver ever (30-546-7 in 2008). IMO, Fitz was elite early on and compiler later on . . . but he was elite at one point. He's harder to judge because there are more receivers from the recent generation putting up crazy numbers.
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I'd rank those WR's, Calvin>Sharpe>Fitz>Bruce.

I like the idea of looking at the best seasons, and for comparison's sake, decided to look at 6 more players who are no longer in the NFL.

487-6431-48 for Herman Moore, who is highly underrated in my opinion, phenomenal numbers for his era, despite having awful QB's. I'm a Bears fan, and Moore scared me every bit as much as Calvin or Sharpe, and more than a guy like Cris Carter. Not quite as much as Moss though. I think Barry overshadowed him, and people have forgotten about him.

462-6870-45 for Chad Johnson

440-6718-41 for Steve Smith

540-7365-39 for Andre Johnson

586-6611-40 for Wes Welker

585-7861-59 for Antonio Brown, assuming his career is over, I hope he isn't too severely punished for how his career ended. He's easily the best WR out of all these guys we've mentioned in my opinion, and I'd go so far as to call him top-5 of the Super Bowl era.

Anyway, my point in looking at these guys is that when comparing them to Fitz(most were his peers) Fitz doesn't really stand out as being better than they were, how many of these guys are considered HOF'ers like Fitz is? 

Brown, Calvin, Sharpe, and Moore are the only ones I'd vote for the HOF. Moore(much like Priest Holmes) is one of my "I know I'm alone on this hill" guys.

 
travdogg said:
I'd rank those WR's, Calvin>Sharpe>Fitz>Bruce.

I like the idea of looking at the best seasons, and for comparison's sake, decided to look at 6 more players who are no longer in the NFL.

487-6431-48 for Herman Moore, who is highly underrated in my opinion, phenomenal numbers for his era, despite having awful QB's. I'm a Bears fan, and Moore scared me every bit as much as Calvin or Sharpe, and more than a guy like Cris Carter. Not quite as much as Moss though. I think Barry overshadowed him, and people have forgotten about him.

462-6870-45 for Chad Johnson

440-6718-41 for Steve Smith

540-7365-39 for Andre Johnson

586-6611-40 for Wes Welker

585-7861-59 for Antonio Brown, assuming his career is over, I hope he isn't too severely punished for how his career ended. He's easily the best WR out of all these guys we've mentioned in my opinion, and I'd go so far as to call him top-5 of the Super Bowl era.

Anyway, my point in looking at these guys is that when comparing them to Fitz(most were his peers) Fitz doesn't really stand out as being better than they were, how many of these guys are considered HOF'ers like Fitz is? 

Brown, Calvin, Sharpe, and Moore are the only ones I'd vote for the HOF. Moore(much like Priest Holmes) is one of my "I know I'm alone on this hill" guys.
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I am less in love with Moore as a HOF candidate than you are for several reasons. For starters, over a three year stretch he had 554 targets with a high of 206. That's an insane amount. Like Bruce, his best year was the whacky 1995 season when receiving numbers were uber inflated. He was Top 5 in receptions twice, receiving yards twice, and receiving TD twice. IMO, a total of 6 in those categories is not really HOF worthy. I'd have to search my multiple computers for my research on this stuff, but a total of 6 years ranked in the Top in those categories is pretty low compared to other elite receivers. By comparison, Antonio Brown, Terrell Owens, and Larry Fitzgerald each ranked Top 5 in the same categories 13 times. Torry Holt had 10. Randy Moss had 17. 

 
Anarchy99 said:
I am less in love with Moore as a HOF candidate than you are for several reasons. For starters, over a three year stretch he had 554 targets with a high of 206. That's an insane amount. Like Bruce, his best year was the whacky 1995 season when receiving numbers were uber inflated. He was Top 5 in receptions twice, receiving yards twice, and receiving TD twice. IMO, a total of 6 in those categories is not really HOF worthy. I'd have to search my multiple computers for my research on this stuff, but a total of 6 years ranked in the Top in those categories is pretty low compared to other elite receivers. By comparison, Antonio Brown, Terrell Owens, and Larry Fitzgerald each ranked Top 5 in the same categories 13 times. Torry Holt had 10. Randy Moss had 17. 
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I would never make a case for Moore over Owens, Brown, or Moss. I do like him more than Fitz, Holt, or Bruce though. 

I agree with you about the targets being insanely high, though I don't consider that a knock against Moore. Much the same way, I wouldn't consider carries a knock against a RB. Also, those targets were from Scott Mitchell. Would Moore's numbers have been worse if he'd had 50 fewer targets, but they were from Brett Favre? 

 
The finalists the special Class of 2020 Centennial Slate Finalists has been released . . .

COACHES:
Don Coryell
Bill Cowher
Tom Flores
Mike Holmgren
Jimmy Johnson
Buddy Parker
Dan Reeves
**** Vermeil

PLAYERS:
Cliff Branch
Harold Carmichael
Jim Covert
Roger Craig
Bobby Dillon
LaVern Dilweg
Ox Emerson
Randy Gradishar
Cliff Harris
Winston Hill
Cecil Isabell
Vernie Lewellan
Tommy Nobis
Drew Pearson
Donnie Shell
Dike Slater
Mac Speedie
Ed Sprinkle
Al Wistert

CONTRIBUTORS:
Bud Adams
Ralph Hay
Frank "Bucko" Kilroy
Art McNally
Art Modell
Clint Murchison
Steve Sabol
Seymour Siwoff
Paul Tagliabue
George Young

 
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Steve Atwater

Carl Banks

Ronde Barber

Tony Boselli

Isaac Bruce

LeRoy Butler

Alan Faneca

Torry Holt

Steve Hutchinson

Edgerrin James

John Lynch

Clay Matthews Jr.

Sam Mills

Troy Polamalu

Simeon Rice

Richard Seymour

Steve Tasker

Fred Taylor

Zach Thomas

Hines Ward

Ricky Watters

Reggie Wayne

Patrick Willis

Darren Woodson

Bryant Young
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damn, that is one heck of a list. 
• Bryant Young (homer pick, but deserving) 

• Patrick Willis (another homer pick) 

• Atwater is a lock? 
• Polamalu is lock.

man - I want to put in 80% of this list. Those two for sure. 

 
Hot Sauce Guy said:
damn, that is one heck of a list. 

• Bryant Young (homer pick, but deserving) 

• Patrick Willis (another homer pick) 

• Atwater is a lock? 
• Polamalu is lock.

man - I want to put in 80% of this list. Those two for sure. 
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Given that Atwater has been a Semifinalist 9 times and a Finalist twice (2016 and 2019), that probably eliminates him as a 100% lock.
This is the first time Young has been a Semifinalist (he retired in 2007), so not sure how much backing he might have.

 
Anarchy99 said:
The finalists the special Class of 2020 Centennial Slate Finalists has been released . . .

COACHES:
Dan Coryell
Bill Cowher
Tom Flores
Mike Holmgren
Jimmy Johnson
Buddy Parker
Dan Reeves
**** Vermeil
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Thanks for posting this. 

I'd be ok if none of these coaches made the HOF. If I had to pick one, I'd probably go with Jimmy Johnson. If he stays in Dallas and wins another ring(like Switzer did) or 2(maybe they win in 94 with better coaching) I wonder if he's already in, but alas, he didn't. The Miami run didn't add to his legacy either, though that was the most success the Dolphins have had in the last 25 years.

Flores has always been interesting to me.I felt some of the narrative of why Tony Dungy got in, is that he opened doors for minority coaches, but Flores was both. earlier, and more successful(not counting that Seahawks run) than Dungy was. 

 
COACHES:
Don Coryell - 111-83-1 in the regular season (.572) and 3-6 in the post season (.333) with no titles
Bill Cowher - 149-90-1 in the regular season (.623) and 12-9 in the post season (.571) with a SB win and a SB loss
Tom Flores - 97-87 in the regular season (.527) and 8-3 in the post season (.727) with 2 SB wins 
Mike Holmgren - 161-111 in the regular season (.592) and 13-11 in the post season (.542) with a SB win and 2 SB losses
Jimmy Johnson - 80-64 in the regular season (.556) and 9-4 in the post season (.692) with 2 SB wins
Buddy Parker - 104-75-9 in the regular season (.581) and 3-1 in the post season (.750) with 2 NFL Championships and a NFL Championship loss
Dan Reeves - 190-165-2 in the regular season (.535) and 11-9 in the post season (.550) with 4 SB losses
**** Vermeil - 120-109 in the regular season (.524) and 6-5 in the post season (.545) with a SB win and a SB loss

 
Anarchy99 said:
The finalists the special Class of 2020 Centennial Slate Finalists has been released . . .

PLAYERS:
Cliff Branch
Harold Carmichael
Jim Covert
Roger Craig
Bobby Dillon
LaVern Dilweg
Ox Emerson
Randy Gradishar
Cliff Harris
Winston Hill
Cecil Isabell
Vernie Lewellan
Tommy Nobis
Drew Pearson
Donnie Shell
Dike Slater
Mac Speedie
Ed Sprinkle
Al Wistert

CONTRIBUTORS:
Bud Adams
Ralph Hay
Frank "Bucko" Kilroy
Art McNally
Art Modell
Clint Murchison
Steve Sabol
Seymour Siwoff
Paul Tagliabue
George Young
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For Contributors, Ralph Hay and Steve Sabol should be in. Hay, in a nutshell, basically created the NFL, and Sabol was NFL films, which at least for me as a kid, is what got me into the history of the sport. 

I remember people hated Tagliabue when he was commissioner. That said, people hated Rozelle and Goodell more, so maybe that is a point in his favor? 

Also, Art Modell has no business in any HOF. I'm more against Modell, than I am in favor of anyone. 

For players, its tough to gauge the really early NFL guys. There is no film, and stats were spottily kept. You have to go somewhat by writers accounts, and accolades. I have a book about Packers history, and while that is likely a bit biased, it makes it sound like Dilweg and Lewellen should be in. It also does for Dillon, but we have stats for him, and 52 INT's, in 94 games, seems HOF worthy to me. 

Cliff Branch and Drew Pearson were the 2 best WR's of the 1970's in my opinion. The only reason they didn't have huge numbers, is they were both on loaded teams with other great players and defenses. 

Cliff Harris and Donnie Shell are both worthy HOF'ers. 

Mac Speedie would be in for me, doubly so for having one of the best names in NFL history. 

Craig, Gradishar,  Covert and Nobis would be on my no list. Craig does have 2 2,000  total yard seasons, including 1 with over 1,000 receiving, but little beyond that, despite being on the NFL's best team almost his entire career. If I were voting for a Broncos LB, I'd go Mecklenberg before Gradishar. 

 
travdogg said:
Flores was both. earlier, and more successful(not counting that Seahawks run) than Dungy was. 
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Why would you not count the Seahawks run? It was abysmal. Which raises the question of how much of his Raiders success was because he inherited a powerhouse.

 
Just Win Baby said:
Why would you not count the Seahawks run? It was abysmal. Which raises the question of how much of his Raiders success was because he inherited a powerhouse.
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Its not that I don't count it, just that it shouldn't overshadow his Raider success. Much the same way that Ditka's Saints run shouldn't. I'm not a believer in giving too much weight to when guys clearly lost it. I don't hold Favre's 2010 against him, or Manning's 2015, even though he did win a ring, he was awful that year. Flores hadn't been coaching for 5 years and was trying to wear the dual hats of HC and GM, which almost nobody has done successfully since free agency started(which is another feather in Belichick's cap) so I give that Seahawks run a bit of a pass, its not meaningless, but its not important either.

I agree that Flores did inherit a powerhouse, but it was also one that was rebuilt on the fly, as Stabler, Biletnikoff, Tatum, and Willie Brown all were no longer on the team when Flores won his rings. Flores won 2 Super Bowls in 4 years, Jimmy Johnson is the only other eligible coach that did that, that isn't in the HOF, to my knowledge. George Seifert won 2, but not in 4 years, but he's another guy who I think doesn't get enough credit for his success, despite inheriting a great team. Seifert won his 2nd Super Bowl, with no Montana, no Craig, no Haley, and no Lott. 3 HOF'ers and a borderline guy, just like Flores. 

Contrast that with say, Tony Dungy, who won his 1 ring, with Manning, Harrison, Wayne, and Tarik Glenn all already in place.  The Colts were a contender when Dungy took over, they were just coming off an injury plagued year, headlined by Edgerrin James shredding his knee, they were 13-3 and 10-6 the 2 years prior. 

 
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travdogg said:
Its not that I don't count it, just that it shouldn't overshadow his Raider success. Much the same way that Ditka's Saints run shouldn't. I'm not a believer in giving too much weight to when guys clearly lost it. I don't hold Favre's 2010 against him, or Manning's 2015, even though he did win a ring, he was awful that year. Flores hadn't been coaching for 5 years and was trying to wear the dual hats of HC and GM, which almost nobody has done successfully since free agency started(which is another feather in Belichick's cap) so I give that Seahawks run a bit of a pass, its not meaningless, but its not important either.

I agree that Flores did inherit a powerhouse, but it was also one that was rebuilt on the fly, as Stabler, Biletnikoff, Tatum, and Willie Brown all were no longer on the team when Flores won his rings. Flores won 2 Super Bowls in 4 years, Jimmy Johnson is the only other eligible coach that did that, that isn't in the HOF, to my knowledge.
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I don't really understand why 2 Super Bowls in 4 years (vs. 5+ years) matters at all. Seems like an arbitrary distinction. Here is my post on Flores in the 2019 HOF semifinalist thread:

Just Win Baby said:
I am very surprised Flores is a finalist, and I don't think he deserves serious consideration.

The following coaches have won exactly 2 Super Bowls and are not currently in the HOF: Jimmy Johnson, Shanahan, Coughlin, Seifert, and Flores.

The following coaches have won 1 Super Bowl and are still active and thus could join that group: Carroll, Payton, Tomlin, Harbaugh, McCarthy, and Pederson.

How many of these guys is it reasonable to expect to make the HOF? I would rank Flores 4th among the 5 in the first group, ahead of only Seifert. Harder to rank him among the active coaches, since they aren't done, but I would definitely rank Carroll and Payton higher than Flores. And Coryell won no Super Bowls, but he is more deserving than all of them IMO.

Flores' resume is essentially based on 3 things:

  1. 2 Super Bowl wins
  2. A very successful 9 season stretch coaching the Raiders
  3. "First Hispanic" achievements.
#1 and #2 are somewhat mitigated by the fact that he took over for Madden, who was 56-16 over the previous 5 seasons, winning a Super Bowl and making it to 3 other AFCCGs.

Those are also both somewhat mitigated by the fact he chose to coach the Seahawks for 3 seasons to a disastrous 14-34 record, taking over for Chuck Knox, who had never finished worse than 7-9 in 9 years as Seattle HC. His HOF case would be much stronger if he never took another coaching job after the Raiders.

That is a weak resume for a HOF finalist. I could see him making it based on #3, but, unlike with Dungy, I am not aware of any real groundswell of support for Flores for that reason.
Click to expand...
Moving on, I had to comment on this:

travdogg said:
Seifert won his 2nd Super Bowl, with no Montana, no Craig, no Haley, and no Lott.
Click to expand...
Sure, he didn't have Montana, a HOFer... but he also inherited Steve Young, another HOFer and top 10 all-time QB.

Sure, he didn't have Craig... but he had Rickey Watters instead, who was better than Craig.

Sure, he didn't have Lott, a HOFer... but the 49ers signed HOFer Deion Sanders that year.

Seifert was not the GM. Carmen Policy was President/GM, and John McVay was President of Football Operations. I'm sure Seifert had some influence on the personnel decisions, but far from full responsibility.

 
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For me:

Gradishar

Modell

Sabol

Coryell (Not on record but on impact of thought)

Cowher

Holmgren

Atwater

James

Matthews

Mills (The Field Mouse)  Making the most of what he had and that most was impressive

Polamalu

The rest, deserving of nomination and their place in the hall of very good is affirmed.  Some day maybe Bruce or Holt make it in.

 
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