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The "OK" Hand Gesture - Racist? False Flag? Hoax? Other? (1 Viewer)

What a dizzying topic, really. It's descriptive vs. prescriptive meaning, some pretty heavy linguistic/communication stuff. 

 
timschochet said:
Sounds like it’s just basic trolling to me. 
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Yeah, it's trolling coming from an online community adopting a specific symbol as a method of other communication and the extent and ramifications of using or being aware of that symbol and its old and new meaning.  

 
timschochet said:
Sounds like it’s just basic trolling to me. 
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I disagree. I don't think it's basic at all. Reading the explanation from the Media Matters person, it's a pretty sophisticated attempt to take a "regular" sign and label it racist when people mean it as a sign of support for the president and then make the people labeling it racist seem too PC. Seems way beyond basic. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
I disagree. I don't think it's trolling at all. Reading the explanation from the Media Matters person, it's a pretty sophisticated attempt to take a "regular" sign and label it racist when people mean it as a sign of support for the president and then make the people labeling it racist seem too PC. Seems way beyond basic. 
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I think everything you just described is exactly what trolling is all about. 

 
Am I still o.k. with a "thumbs up" gesture?  I think I use that more than the o.k. one.  In the rare instances when I do use the o.k. gesture it is always shoulder high and involves two shakes.  I never noticed that about myself until just now.

 
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Joe Bryant said:
I wasn't clear. I don't think it's basic at all. I changed my post. Still expect to completely disagree with you but that's par. All good. ;)
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Par? Lol I agree with you a lot, Joe. And here as well. I shouldn’t have used the word “basic.” You’re right it isn’t. 

 
Before it became a supposed racist symbol it was considered in esoteric symbolism to represent 666.
 

Nowadays we seem to look for reasons to be offended.

The one picture that keeps coming to mind in my head is Eddie Murphy flashing the sign on the cover of the Beverly Hills cop vhs tape.

 
Joe Bryant said:
I disagree. I don't think it's basic at all. Reading the explanation from the Media Matters person, it's a pretty sophisticated attempt to take a "regular" sign and label it racist when people mean it as a sign of support for the president and then make the people labeling it racist seem too PC. Seems way beyond basic. 
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One point she makes in her thread and which I think is a good one - if you are willing to pretend to be a white supremacist just to "own the libs" - what does that say about you?

 
I think it started as a troll job but now some white supremacists use it as a legit symbol standing for what they stand for.  

 
Article isn't pulling up for me but I had never heard the "ok" hand gesture tied to white supremacy until this forum.  Some people want to be offended at everything.  I'm pretty positive the guys at the Army Navy game were not doing anything racist and aren't white supremacists.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Article isn't pulling up for me but I had never heard the "ok" hand gesture tied to white supremacy until this forum.  Some people want to be offended at everything.  I'm pretty positive the guys at the Army Navy game were not doing anything racist and aren't white supremacists.
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Yep they were probably just trying to tell their parents back home that they are OK

 
eoMMan said:
I think it started as a troll job but now some white supremacists use it as a legit symbol standing for what they stand for.  
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We should start our own rumor as to what it means.  I say anybody using that symbol upside down is signaling that they have a wilted penis.  Yes, WP stands for wilted penis.  It is an admission.  Spread the word.

 
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The internet culture where people IRL do what happens on the web where they say or do something to trigger someone and then say 'oh no you're the ___' is really insane. The cadet will probably be investigated by the Army and I'll trust whatever they come out with, (a) immature little jerk (it was a game/joke/insult) or (b) oh boy look at all the stuff we found on his social media. Much appreciation for cadets everywhere and I truly hope it was just a stupid move by a kid having a good time at one of America's great sporting events. Sometimes people just don't know how much harm they're causing.

 
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I suppose, if there is a shred of truth to this, then I believe it is the direct result of free speech getting banned on the internet and in the public square, including many colleges in the United States.

 
Another historical look at the OK sign in a 2018 article by David Neiwart of the Southern Poverty Law Center and covers much of the same ground as in the OP link.

Southern Poverty Law Center‏ @splcenter 18h18 hours ago

Wondering about the "OK" symbol flashed during the Army-Navy game yesterday? Read our analysis of the history and meaning to learn more about this seemingly harmless gesture:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll

From the above link:

So what does it mean when someone flashes the OK sign? In the end, it can mean almost anything, but primarily it’s one of three things:

- It can be a harmless use of its traditional meaning that all’s well.

- It can be an ironic attempt to troll liberals with a symbol chosen to “trigger” their inner “SJWs.”

- It can be a surreptitious way of signaling your presence to other white supremacists.

The first of these (and its most common, but also most declining, use) is harmless. But it can’t credibly be claimed by anyone who has a record of involvement with the many far-right elements that swirl both around the Trump White House and outside it as well. Nor can it be claimed by street-protesting Proud Boys chanting far-right slogans.

The second is less directly harmful, but hardly innocent of wreaking havoc. The normalization of the radical right under the rhetorical protection of self-proclaimed “centrists” and “libertarians,” particularly those who spread conspiracy theories and are often labeled the “alt-lite,” is a legacy that could last a generation or longer.

The third is, of course, reflective of a toxic worldview and authoritarian politics, bent primarily on the destruction of liberal democracy. At the moment, it remains the smallest bloc of the three.

Yet trolling culture, the ethos that fuels the second motivation, has proven a direct gateway not just to the alt-right, but also to even more poisonous cultures such as that of woman-hating “incels”. It’s one thing to shrug off misbehavior by embracing the “troll” label, but it still means you’re a participant in a toxic subculture. It's easy for the second motivation to morph into the third.

So when someone flashes the “OK sign” with that knowing smirk, it’s not just a harmless act that can be dismissed. It may or may not mean that they are a white nationalist attempting a sly signal. But the sign unquestionably identifies the user as one thing: a troll.

 
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pinkham13 said:
I suppose, if there is a shred of truth to this, then I believe it is the direct result of free speech getting banned on the internet and in the public square, including many colleges in the United States.
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How does one make this leap? And of course there is more than a shred of truth to this. If you read the linked feed it clearly outlines the origins and prevalence of it

 
Gotta say, as a kid this was a pretty common game to play.  If someone made you look at the O, you got punched.

I can't guarantee that they were playing this game.  Was pretty common up until early high school among a certain type of guys.

So while I can't guarantee they were playing the game, it also doesn't make much sense that they'd be flashing a white supremacy hand gesture either.  From their attitudes, it seems like they were playing, being silly, and just goofing off generally...would be awfully weird to combine those two, but stranger things have happened.  I tend to give benefit of the doubt before jumping to the worst assumptions in situations like this.

 
squistion said:
Another historical look at the OK sign in a 2018 article by David Neiwart of the Southern Poverty Law Center and covers much of the same ground as in the OP link.

Southern Poverty Law Center‏ @splcenter 18h18 hours ago

Wondering about the "OK" symbol flashed during the Army-Navy game yesterday? Read our analysis of the history and meaning to learn more about this seemingly harmless gesture:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll

From the above link:

So what does it mean when someone flashes the OK sign? In the end, it can mean almost anything, but primarily it’s one of three things:

- It can be a harmless use of its traditional meaning that all’s well.

- It can be an ironic attempt to troll liberals with a symbol chosen to “trigger” their inner “SJWs.”

- It can be a surreptitious way of signaling your presence to other white supremacists.

The first of these (and its most common, but also most declining, use) is harmless. But it can’t credibly be claimed by anyone who has a record of involvement with the many far-right elements that swirl both around the Trump White House and outside it as well. Nor can it be claimed by street-protesting Proud Boys chanting far-right slogans.

The second is less directly harmful, but hardly innocent of wreaking havoc. The normalization of the radical right under the rhetorical protection of self-proclaimed “centrists” and “libertarians,” particularly those who spread conspiracy theories and are often labeled the “alt-lite,” is a legacy that could last a generation or longer.

The third is, of course, reflective of a toxic worldview and authoritarian politics, bent primarily on the destruction of liberal democracy. At the moment, it remains the smallest bloc of the three.

Yet trolling culture, the ethos that fuels the second motivation, has proven a direct gateway not just to the alt-right, but also to even more poisonous cultures such as that of woman-hating “incels”. It’s one thing to shrug off misbehavior by embracing the “troll” label, but it still means you’re a participant in a toxic subculture. It's easy for the second motivation to morph into the third.

So when someone flashes the “OK sign” with that knowing smirk, it’s not just a harmless act that can be dismissed. It may or may not mean that they are a white nationalist attempting a sly signal. But the sign unquestionably identifies the user as one thing: a troll.
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Pls put SPLC among Maurile's least trustworthy sites to cite.

Thanks.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks to @Slapdash for sharing this info from Parker Malloy. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1206068831485075456.html

Ms. Mallow is Editor-at-large of Media Matters.

I thought it was interesting and helpful. 

Wondering what you thought?
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I think it's a spot-on analysis.

"Haha, we use racism as a joke to try to own the libs" is, in itself, pretty racist, but:

The point in all of this, though, is that context matters. If a group of people are making a symbol because they want you to think they’re white supremacists, they’re probably white supremacists (“ha! Made you think I’m a racist!” isn’t how jokes work, nor was that the joke/prank outlined in the 4chan thread), but it’s not *always* the case.
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The sign is definitely used by white supremacists. It is also used other ways, which is why they chose it, so that they have plausible deniability and can own the libs with "what are you talking about you're hysterical :lmao: ." Investigate if you want to investigate, but don't talk about it publicly until you have something concrete. They love it. Is that what's going on here? No idea.

 
Also can signal a 3 pointer. Was a game I did in middle school. Can't say I ever used it as "Ok" to someone, more of a thumbs up guy.

Personally after I see the New Zealand shooter make the symbol I wouldn't make the sign but I get that people don't see every news story and many have no clue about the white power BS. I didn't know about the 4chan ties to this until the other thread.

 
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At this point, whatever the intent has been for those shown in recent years flashing the OK hand sign, I think we can agree that it is now viewed by some (rightfully or wrongfully) as a symbol associated with the White Supremacy movement.

As such, feel free to use the sign for its traditional meaning or as a joke or for trolling liberals. However you should be prepared for people claiming you are flashing a white power sign, irrespective of your actual intent. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
The internet culture where people IRL do what happens on the web where they say or do something to trigger someone and then say 'oh no you're the ___' is really insane. The cadet will probably be investigated by the Army and I'll trust whatever they come out with, (a) immature little jerk (it was an insult) or (b) oh boy look at all the stuff we found on his social media. Much appreciation for cadets everywhere and I truly hope it was just a stupid move by a kid having a good time at one of America's great sporting events. Sometimes people just don't know how much harm they're causing.
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Meh. Unfortunately so many of these incidents get handled to simply make it go away. The Cubs didn't investigate, but they said they did. They banned the guy for life. When Crane Kenney was first asked about it, his answer was so scripted and ambiguous you just knew they weren't actually investigating. They later admitted they never looked at his social media or even spoke to him. 

Doug glanville had an op ed posted in the NYT about it, like ten days after the fact when it was known that the Cubs never spoke to him. 

I Was Racially Taunted on Television. Wasn’t I?

Bigotry thrives in vagueness. It can be cowardly with double meanings.
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The "investigation" is often just a facade these days. Same with "they were fired so they must have found something". 

 
This must just be a thing at my school because I never see it mentioned in the ok symbol discussion, but when I was in high school you could use it to call somebody an ahole. 

Middle finger being the A, ring an s, pinky and s, and then a hole. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
This must just be a thing at my school because I never see it mentioned in the ok symbol discussion, but when I was in high school you could use it to call somebody an ahole. 

Middle finger being the A, ring an s, pinky and s, and then a hole. 
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A hole in sign language is like an Ok symbol with the wrist twisted so the hole is pointing up

 
I don’t see the OK hand sign as racist, yet it’s evidently popular with racists, specifically those people who amuse themselves by raising the specter of white supremacy in connection with something so common and harmless.

As happy as the racists are to have us notice that they are now and then communicating their solidarity with an otherwise innocent hand signal, they are likewise daring us to ignore it, allowing them to continue advertising their bigotry in public without consequence.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Am I still o.k. with a "thumbs up" gesture?  I think I use that more than the o.k. one.  In the rare instances when I do use the o.k. gesture it is always shoulder high and involves two shakes.  I never noticed that about myself until just now.
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I was always a one shake guy.  Two is fine.  As my father always said, "more than three shakes and you're playing with it."

 
parasaurolophus said:
Meh. Unfortunately so many of these incidents get handled to simply make it go away. The Cubs didn't investigate, but they said they did. They banned the guy for life. When Crane Kenney was first asked about it, his answer was so scripted and ambiguous you just knew they weren't actually investigating. They later admitted they never looked at his social media or even spoke to him. 

Doug glanville had an op ed posted in the NYT about it, like ten days after the fact when it was known that the Cubs never spoke to him. 

The "investigation" is often just a facade these days. Same with "they were fired so they must have found something". 
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I don't think the Army wants white supremacists/nationalists in their ranks or Academy, and they also don't want embarrassing moments on tv with the President present (ie if it's just a prank). I think they'll take it seriously.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
I don't think the Army wants white supremacists/nationalists in their ranks or Academy, and they also don't want embarrassing moments on tv with the President present (ie if it's just a prank). I think they'll take it seriously.
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So the Army is getting too PC?

 
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