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Elway or Brees - who is the better all-time QB? (1 Viewer)

Who is the better all-time QB?

  • John Elway

    Votes: 40 32.3%
  • Drew Brees

    Votes: 84 67.7%

  • Total voters
    124

Ghost Rider

Footballguy
I am seeing a lot of complaining on Twitter (big shock there) about Elway making the NFL's 100 greatest players list over Brees.  While Brees (who I am a big fan of) has the better overall stats, largely because of playing inside and in an era where you cannot touch a WR or breathe on a QB, Elway's greatness almost had to be seen to be believed.  I think some forget that there is more to football that fantasy football numbers. 

 
I haven't voted yet - wanna think on it some. But I'd have liked to see what Elway could do in today's game. He was one of the most athletic QBs I've seen and had a howitzer for an arm.

 
As some one that has watched both give me Elway. Obviously Brees is great but as pointed out in the OP playing in ideal conditions and in this era skews stats in his favor. Elway had the better arm, athleticism and leadership. Some of the teams he led to the Championship games had no business being there otherwise.

 
I think most would agree that it is close, so I am curious as to why you think it's not. 
Because I’m old enough to have watched most of Elway’s career, and I’ve seen all of Brees career.

Brees won with sub-par receiving talent more than one season. He elevated those around him, with accuracy, grit & leadership. 

Elway was hot garbage earlier in his career & could never win the big one until he had a HOF TE & RB around him. 

Their career arcs aren’t remotely similar - Brees overcame surgery to become one of the best of all-time.
 

Elway, for all of his longevity stats & gaudy yardage stats never threw more than 27 TDs in a season, which he did once. And for most of his career he ranged about 60/40 TD:INT. And part of his career was without the push-out rule, where receivers could catch the ball & get knocked out & it counted as a catch, making a lot of the yardage stats by Marino & Elway a bit easier to accumulate. 

Drew Brees has always been a better QB, and after looking closer at the numbers I’ll stick with my statement - it’s not close. 

 
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Brees overcame surgery to become one of the best of all-time.
His surgery was pretty involved. The surgery and rehab was actually published in a journal since it was such a great success. I remember reading that research article and laughing because it was obvious who the "case study" was since they described him going on to win the passing title and super bowl. 

 
As some one that has watched both give me Elway. Obviously Brees is great but as pointed out in the OP playing in ideal conditions and in this era skews stats in his favor. Elway had the better arm, athleticism and leadership. Some of the teams he led to the Championship games had no business being there otherwise.
I think Cleveland would have been a better match for the first two NFC teams that throttled Denver in the SB, though the top NFC teams were miles better than the AFC's best.

 
Because I’m old enough to have watched most of Elway’s career, and I’ve seen all of Brees career.

Brees won with sub-par receiving talent more than one season. He elevated those around him, with accuracy, grit & leadership. 

Elway was hot garbage earlier in his career & could never win the big one until he had a HOF TE & RB around him. 

Their career arcs aren’t remotely similar - Brees overcame surgery to become one of the best of all-time.
 

Elway, for all of his longevity stats & Harry yardage stats never threw more than 27 TDs in a season, which he did once. And for most of his career he ranged about 60/40 TD:INT. And part of his career was without the push-out rule, where receivers could catch the ball & get knocked out & it counted as a catch, making a lot of the yardage stats by Marino & Elway a bit easier to accumulate. 

Drew Brees has always been a better QB, and after looking closer at the numbers I’ll stick with my statement - it’s not close. 
Brees is awesome, so this is not an argument against him so much as it is one for Elway.  Sure, Elway never threw more than 27 TDs in a season, but Joe Montana only did it twice (and 31 was his high).  Quarterbacks back then didn't throw for as many TD's and yards as they do now, Marino in '84 notwithstanding.  

How can you say that Brees won with sub-par receiving talent, while ignoring that Elway did that for most of his career (until he Pro Bowl and HOF talent at the skill positions in the 90's)?   Heck, Michael Thomas is better than any WR Elway ever had. 

Plus, Elway played his career outside in the cold in Denver, while Brees has played inside in a dome for most of his career, and I believe the numbers have shown that Brees isn't the stud QB outside that he is inside. 

 
As some one that has watched both give me Elway. Obviously Brees is great but as pointed out in the OP playing in ideal conditions and in this era skews stats in his favor. Elway had the better arm, athleticism and leadership. Some of the teams he led to the Championship games had no business being there otherwise.
It’s obviously subjective, but I don’t see how you could be more of a leader than Brees. 

 
2 years ago, in a poll of 10 great coaches, Elway was 4th and Brees 9th among QBs since 1978.  Brees would probably be a few slots higher if the poll were held today. Elway had more physical ability, but as Brees has shown, accuracy and anticipation are more important. Brees has also elevated his team more than Elway did, with the supporting cast changing almost every year, until recently. Was Elway never 1st team all pro as indicated in the article below?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20096209/nfl-coaches-execs-rank-best-quarterbacks-modern-era-2017#8

 
2 years ago, in a poll of 10 great coaches, Elway was 4th and Brees 9th among QBs since 1978.  Brees would probably be a few slots higher if the poll were held today. Elway had more physical ability, but as Brees has shown, accuracy and anticipation are more important. Brees has also elevated his team more than Elway did, with the supporting cast changing almost every year, until recently. Was Elway never 1st team all pro as indicated in the article below?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20096209/nfl-coaches-execs-rank-best-quarterbacks-modern-era-2017#8
Well now hold on a second...

 
Brees was a good QB before he went to New Orleans but thrived in Sean Peyton's system which elevated him to greatness. I don't get the arguments about Brees elevating his surrounding cast as an argument in his favor as Brees had far better talent to work with thoughtout his career. Can anyone even name a WR, RB or TE that played for Denver while the Broncos were getting to Super Bowls in the 80s. I'm sure some can just as football fans, but you get the point.

 
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It's easier to compare wins than stats across eras. 

In 18 seasons, brees has led his team to a winning record 10 times, gone to the playoffs 8 times, won one conference championship and a superbowl, and had an 8-7 playoff record. 

In 16 seasons, Elway also led his team to a winning record 10 times, but took his team to the playoffs ten times, won 5 conference championships and two superbowls, and had a 14-8 playoff record.  

Brees is still playing and could improve on his team accomplishments but he could win a superbowl this year and lose a superbowl next year and he'd still only be 13-8 in the playoffs with 4 conference championships.  

I understand that it's a team sport, and blah blah trent dilfer, but when we're comparing all time greats that both played hundreds of games for over 15 years each, the sample size is large enough that it's hard to argue that one guy always had better teams around him.  Elway didn't single handedly win his rings but Brees didn't convert a surprise onsides kick in the superbowl either.  Things even out over that many trials. 

Before Brady, there was an argument that Elway was the best of all time.  I don't think you see that argument for Brees, even though he will end up first or second in the career yardage and touchdowns lists.  It's possible that Brees finishes strong and joins that conversation but for me right now he's not there yet.

That's no disrespect for Brees, who overcame adversity, was a better all around guy, and did so much for new Orleans after Katrina. He's a class act and first ballot Hall of Famer. It's just grudging respect for Elway's accomplishments. 

 
the push-out rule, where receivers could catch the ball & get knocked out & it counted as a catch, making a lot of the yardage stats by Marino & Elway a bit easier to accumulate.
How often do you think this happened? And it was only if the receiver would have, in the refs opinion, come down in bounds anyway. Nearly every other single rule since then has favored the offense and the passing game. 

 
His surgery was pretty involved. The surgery and rehab was actually published in a journal since it was such a great success. I remember reading that research article and laughing because it was obvious who the "case study" was since they described him going on to win the passing title and super bowl. 
Yeah - that’s why I mentioned it. I didn’t know about that article, but I’d read that it was a fairly extreme procedure and there were questions as to whether he’d ever be able to play at a high level. 

overcoming that definitely bumps him up a bit in my eyes. Plus he’s a bit vertically challenged for a pro QB. 

i feel like Brees has achieved more with less natural advantages. 

 
There's obviously more to a QB than stats, even as compared to their peers, but they're a decent starting point. 

Elway led the NFL in a meaningful category once in his career. Yards in 93

Brees? 11 times and I'm not even counting rating, attempts or completions. 

Elway played in an era with Montana, Marino, young, an a few other studs. Brees played with Peyton Manning (arguably the most prolific record pursuer out there), Tom Brady (who seems to not care at all about stats except winning), and a few others who didn't last as long.

Brees having just one pro bowl only goes to show the level of his competition. 

Both belong on the QB "modern day" Mount Rushmore, but I'll take Brees by a bit. 

 
How often do you think this happened? And it was only if the receiver would have, in the refs opinion, come down in bounds anyway. Nearly every other single rule since then has favored the offense and the passing game. 
I remember it happening fairly frequently. That’s hardly the factor that decidedly separates Elway from Brees, but it is a factor. 

 
How often do you think this happened? And it was only if the receiver would have, in the refs opinion, come down in bounds anyway. Nearly every other single rule since then has favored the offense and the passing game. 
Agreed. 

When thinking about which 10 QB's would make this 100 team, I figured Elway was a no-brainer along with Brady, Manning, Montana, Unitas, Marino, Graham and Baugh, with the Brees having an outside shot at one of the last two spots.  Despite his awesome career and insane numbers, I suspect Brees is viewed as not having as high a peak as the guys that made it, like Favre who, despite his shaky play at times over the second half of his career, won three MVP's (vs none for Brees). 

 
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It's easier to compare wins than stats across eras. 
 
it’s also the lamest measure of a QB, and makes for a terrible defense of any player in the ultimate team sport of football, which has the most people on a team. 

which is why it’s indeed easier to compare that way. It’s not better though. 

 
, like Favre who, despite his shaky play at times over the second half of his career, won three MVP's (vs none for Brees). 
meh - MVP awards are pretty subjective too, and there have been many snubs over the years.

i can’t see using MVP as a criteria. I’d rather look at the numbers. 

 
I remember it happening fairly frequently. That’s hardly the factor that decidedly separates Elway from Brees, but it is a factor. 
In the course of an NFL season, maybe it happened "fairly frequently" (which is pretty vague) - but I'd bet it added no more than 250 passing yards and no more than 4-5 TDs to Elway's or Marino's career totals. 

 
meh - MVP awards are pretty subjective too, and there have been many snubs over the years.

i can’t see using MVP as a criteria. I’d rather look at the numbers. 
But you can't compare numbers from two different eras.  Elway played most of his career when you could mug WRs and knock the crap out of the QB, while Brees has played most of his career in an era where flags are thrown if a WR or QB is so much sneezed on.  

 
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In the course of an NFL season, maybe it happened "fairly frequently" (which is pretty vague) - but I'd bet it added no more than 250 passing yards and no more than 4-5 TDs to Elway's or Marino's career totals. 
Of course it’s vague - I was a kid watching football. I remember seeing it with Marino a lot, but I don’t recall down or distance or any other specifics just like I don’t remember what I had for breakfast 30+ years ago. But I do remember that I had breakfast. ;)

again - I didn’t dispute that it was a minor factor - but it was a factor. It is a true statement that Elway played some of his career with a stat more favorable to QBs. That’s an indisputable fact. I’m not sure why you’re so hung up on it. I didn’t claim it to be an end all be all factor or make it out to be anything more than what it is. And it is what it is. A fact. 

 
Agreed. 

When thinking about which 10 QB's would make this 100 team, I figured Elway was a no-brainer along with Brady, Manning, Montana, Unitas, Marino, Graham and Baugh, with the Brees having an outside shot at one of the last two spots.  Despite his awesome career and insane numbers, I suspect Brees is viewed as not having as high a peak as the guys that made it, like Favre who, despite his shaky play at times over the second half of his career, won three MVP's (vs none for Brees). 
High favre definitely belongs in the top 10. Bad favre shouldn't be near it. On average, give me the guy I can rely on consistently over the hot/cold. 

 
But you can't compare numbers from two different eras.  Elway played most of his career when you could mug WRs and knock the crap out of the QB, while Brees has played most of his career in an era where flags are thrown if a WR or QB is so much sneezed on.  
I’ll concede that - there’s no doubt QBs had it harder then. 

but that’s different from MVP awards. 

 
High favre definitely belongs in the top 10. Bad favre shouldn't be near it. On average, give me the guy I can rely on consistently over the hot/cold. 
I am probably with you on this, which is why I probably wouldn't put Favre in my top 10 if I had to do it (and with conceding to include at least 3-4 guys I never saw play like Unitas, Graham, Baugh and maybe Staubach).  There is no way I am putting Favre ahead of Peyton, Brady, Montana, Elway, Marino, Young, Brees or even Rodgers, but I get why others would. 

I’ll concede that - there’s no doubt QBs had it harder then. 

but that’s different from MVP awards. 
Well, sure.  I actually think Brees should have been the MVP in '09 instead of Peyton (I thought that before the playoffs, which ended with Brees' Saints beating Peyton's Colts), but it is what it is. 

 
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Made up stats don't tell the story that watching actual football does. 
True, there's more than advanced  stats, although the stats help control for so many confounding variables. By the eye test, Steve Young was the best I've seen.

Brees is good at keeping drives alive with short and intermediate range passes and avoiding turnovers. Michael Thomas is a great match for Brees' skills. And at the same time, Brees had great touch on the deep throws to Stills, Cooks and Ginn.  Different style than Elway, but super effective. And maybe if he had to play outdoors, his stats would've taken a big hit.

 
I don’t think passer rating is a perfect stat by any stretch but it encompasses a lot of elements of QB play. Looking at how each player ranked in QBR relative to their peers can help parse the difference since the raw stats aren’t comparable due to the changes in era. Elway finished top 10 in QBR 5 seasons: 3, 4, 4, 7, 5. Brees has finished in the top 10 in QBR 14 times-  including 5 times where he finished 1 or 2. So it seems without a doubt Brees was the better passer of his era. Did Elway do enough on the ground to overcome the discrepancy? He averaged 230 yards and 2 rushing TDs a year. For me, that’s not enough to move the needle.

 
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True, there's more than advanced  stats, although the stats help control for so many confounding variables. By the eye test, Steve Young was the best I've seen.
Statistically Young was the most accurate QB of all time. Highest completion % & IIRC highest QBR. Dude was a stud, and continues to not always get his due in the “all-time greats” discussion. In a lot of ways he was better than Montana. Number of rings was not one of those ways, so Young remains a bit underrated. 

Brees is good at keeping drives alive with short and intermediate range passes and avoiding turnovers. Michael Thomas is a great match for Brees' skills. And at the same time, Brees had great touch on the deep throws to Stills, Cooks and Ginn.  Different style than Elway, but super effective. And maybe if he had to play outdoors, his stats would've taken a big hit.
I think a lot Is made of Brees splits. i also think it’s a little bit unfair. It’s not like he played his college career in a dome.

but a lot of NFL QBs do acclimate to a dome & then struggle on the road in bad weather.

That said, a lot of QBs who play outdoors also struggle in bad weather.

people love to slice & dice with this one. “Elway played his whole career in Denver” or “Favre played on the frozen tundra!” with visions of the Ice Bowl, swirling winds and snow flurries. 

yeah - Except in September & October those fields are just ducky, and not at all the frozen anything. 

so to the specific argument of “if Brees has played outdoors His whole career” I’d counter to say that had Brees played his entire career outdoors he’d probably have acclimated to that like pretty much everyone else does. And even then he probably would have had some bad games in bad weather just like I’m sure Elway & Favre did. 

 
Hadn’t thought about the weather but we’ve seen Brady, Manning and Rodgers shred record books playing in bad weather cities so I’m not sure we can definitively say that has an impact.

 

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