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Hankmoody

Offical 2020 Las Vegas Raiders thread

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20 hours ago, massraider said:

Goofing around on PFF and Draft Network draft simulators.  Both with very fair trade downs.  

This one from PFF:

19LV Laviska Shenault Jr.WR Colorado

29LV Jaylon Johnson CB Utah

53LV Jonah Jackson G Ohio State

80LV Jeremy Chinn S Southern Illinois

81LV Willie Gay Jr. LB Mississippi State

91LV Devin Duvernay WR Texas

93LV Ben Bredeson G Michigan

121 LVDavion Taylor LB Colorado

159 LVDevin Asiasi TE UCLA

 

And from TDN:

18 Jordan Love QB Utah State

19 Kristian Fulton CB LSU

80 Darrell Taylor EDGE Tennessee

81 Bryan Edwards WR South Carolina

91 Akeem Davis-Gaither LB Appalachian State 

121 Tyler Johnson WR Minnesota

141 McTelvin Agim IDL Arkansas

153 Yasir Durant IOL Missouri

159 Jack Driscoll, OT Auburn

PFF algorithm very different than TDN, which is good to keep in mind, that these dudes are reallly guessing, and going off their OWN boards to determine where players go.  

Love Edwards and Tyler Johnson at those spots, but as you said, and this is why I despise mocks and related tools, we have no clue what personnel guys are thinking.  That said, I have had fun with this one:

https://first-pick.com/NFL/DraftGame.aspx

It offers extremely unrealistic trade-downs so I usually go crazy and end up with a bajillion picks, but if you just ignore them for a moment I come up with:

Round 1 Pick 12: Javon Kinlaw, DT, South Carolina (A)
Round 1 Pick 19: Kenneth Murray, ILB/OLB, Oklahoma (A-)
Round 3 Pick 16: Bryan Edwards, WR, South Carolina (A+)
Round 3 Pick 17: Darnay Holmes (CB) UCLA (A)
Round 3 Pick 27: Devin Duvernay (WR) Texas (A)
Round 4 Pick 15: Jeremy Chinn (FS) S. Illinois (A+)
Round 5 Pick 13: Yasir Durant, OG, Missouri (A+)

I could also have gone CJ Henderson at 12 and Justing Madubuike at 3.17 - I think I like that better in retrospect.

Lots of interesting options, especially the WR - Michael Pittman was there at 3.27 but I didn't feel like that was realistic enough.  Hurts is there a lot and I would be thrilled if we took him in round 3 too.

 

 

Edited by Hankmoody

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26 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

Love Edwards and Tyler Johnson at those spots, but as you said, and this is why I despise mocks and related tools, we have no clue what personnel guys are thinking.  That said, I have had fun with this one:

https://first-pick.com/NFL/DraftGame.aspx

It offers extremely unrealistic trade-downs so I usually go crazy and end up with a bajillion picks, but if you just ignore them for a moment I come up with:

Round 1 Pick 12: Javon Kinlaw, DT, South Carolina (A)
Round 1 Pick 19: Kenneth Murray, ILB/OLB, Oklahoma (A-)
Round 3 Pick 16: Bryan Edwards, WR, South Carolina (A+)
Round 3 Pick 17: Darnay Holmes (CB) UCLA (A)
Round 3 Pick 27: Devin Duvernay (WR) Texas (A)
Round 4 Pick 15: Jeremy Chinn (FS) S. Illinois (A+)
Round 5 Pick 13: Yasir Durant, OG, Missouri (A+)

I could also have gone CJ Henderson at 12 and Justing Madubuike at 3.17 - I think I like that better in retrospect.

Lots of interesting options, especially the WR - Michael Pittman was there at 3.27 but I didn't feel like that was realistic enough.  Hurts is there a lot and I would be thrilled if we took him in round 3 too.

I like every one of those names.  Chinn keeps popping up as available at Raiders picks, and I keep grabbing him.  I don't think he's a FS in th NFL, but I'll take him as a nickel LB, TE eraser, big slot, whatever. Reading things now that he goes in the 2nd round, we'll see.  

PFF with a vid breakdown of Pittman:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVqIb6HYcjA

Renner brings up his age, which is valid. Why didn't this guy physically dominate earlier?  I really like to hear that the team took guys that were good from day 1 on campus.  3 years older than Cooper when we drafted him.  I still like him, and if he's one of our 3rd rounders, sounds good to me.  Realistic? I am keeping a very open mind this year.  Okudah at 12? Unrealistic. Pittman in the 3rd? Suuuure, why not? Can I say for sure he goes before Claypool? Definitely not. Is Claypool defintely a 2nd rounder? Not from what we're reading.  

I'll be completely fine with Lamb at 12, but Jeudy is my guy, has been favorite WR since last year.  He's going to get open the minute he's in the NFL, and when he gets better at route running? 🤯  Isaac Bruce.  And if we ARE rolling with Carr for next few years, if Grayock are in on Carr, I want guys that get wide open, rather than contested catch guys. Carr is conservative, I don't want him having to learn to throw it up and let his guys get it. I want guys that get wide open, so he can see it, and throw it in time, WCO-style. 

I go back and forth on trade down possibilities. 

  • Trading down from 12, I think our best chance for a BIG haul is if someone comes up for the 4th OT, whoever that is.  I cannot imagine someone trading up for Jordan Love that early.  Herbert if he's there? 
  • Trading down from 19, I think there are some scenarios I like a lot.  It could net a 2nd and a 3rd.  But I think I prefer a small slide down, and grab another 3rd, maybe a little more.   And maybe it's just me, but the 2nd rounders are not so mind-blowing that I NEED to recoup a 2nd rounder.  Unless we trade down, and that 2nd rounder is Jalen Hurts. Then I'm fairly excited. 
  • I think my favorite preference is trading down in the 3rd, and grabbing several late rounders, I am convinced a lot of players are gonna slip between the cracks.  The UDFA scramble is gonna be bonkers this year, I bet.  

If Kinlaw or Brown is there at 12, I'll have my eyebrows raised.  It would be kind of fun to see the Raiders take Kinlaw, and waiting to see which WRs come off the board after that.  

Stuff on the web now that Tua isn't a lock here and there to go top 10, I'm sure you guys have seen it. I'd do that at 12 all day. Unlikely? Sure. No chance he's there? Absolutely not. 

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Here is my take of Jeudy vs. Lamb:

I would take Jeudy over Lamb.  Both have superstar potential, but Jeudy is more polished with a less likely chance to bust, IMO.  Lamb might be a little more explosive and might be better after the catch, but he never saw press coverage so there is a bit of an unknown there how he will fare.  I think the part Mass wrote about Carr being conservative and wanting the guy that gets wide open is interesting and completely valid.  He just will not throw the ball over 10 yards unless there is a good deal of separation.   

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Jeff Okudah, Ohio State (6-1, 205): Okudah didn’t run a blazing 40 at 4.47 seconds but performed magnificently in the jumps with a 41-inch vertical and 11 feet, 3 inches broad. “I thought there was a chance he’d break 4.40,” said one scout. “He’s a top-five, no-brainer. He’s super talented. He’s 6-1, he can run, he has cover skills, he’s smart, he’s tough, he’s got great makeup. He needs to get stronger, but he’s only 20.” In 2017 he played behind Denzel Ward, who went fourth to Cleveland in 2018. “Different type than Denzel Ward,” said another scout. “This guy’s really long. Really improved (in 2019). I don’t quite see top-10 talent.” Finished with three interceptions and 18 passes defensed. “I like Okudah, but I don’t think he’s very physical and I don’t think he played against top receivers,” said a third scout. “I never really saw him challenged in the Big Ten. Best game I ever saw him play was last year against Washington in the Rose Bowl. This year, he was the last man between Jonathan Taylor and the end zone, and he just dove at him and didn’t come close. But he can cover.”

CJ Henderson, Florida (6-0 1/2, 204): Ar 4.37 seconds, Henderson clocked the fastest 40 of the top corners at the combine. “Up and down year, but all the talent’s in place,” one scout said shortly before the combine. “He’s going to run low as hell.” He bench-pressed 20 times. “He was my favorite corner on tape,” another scout said. “You talk about extremely explosive, extremely fast, change of direction, ball skills. Just an excellent athlete. Has some lapses when he’s in off coverage, but when he’s dialed in, man, he’s super talented. The one thing I questioned was ball-skill finish. But he has rare closing speed.”

Kristian Fulton, Louisiana State (5-11 1/2, 197): Fulton served 18 months of a two-year suspension for allegedly using another person’s urine during his drug test. “He’s competitive, crafty,” said one scout. “May not have the top-end speed but knows how to play.” He clocked a 4.47-second 40. “He had problems with Colin Johnson of Texas,” a second scout said. “He did have some problems against Clemson. The sophomore receiver (Justyn Ross) separated from this guy. He’s smart, physical, good tackler. You wish (Grant) Delpit would hit like this guy. Supports quickly. He has similar ability to Greedy Williams.”

Noah Igbinoghene, Auburn (5-10 1/2, 197): Igbinoghene played wide receiver in high school and as a freshman before making the move to cornerback. “He smothers guys in press,” said one scout. “Second gear downfield. Can mirror. Didn’t make many plays on the ball. Tough trigger in run support.” He’s the shortest of the leading corners and ran a 4.49-second 40. “I’m not sure he couldn’t play corner or safety and do both well,” a second scout said. “He’s strong. He’s fast. He’s mean. He’s not a takeaway guy, but he’s a pretty neat package. He ran 4.5, which isn’t terrible. He could be a slider.” Igbinoghene returned kickoffs all three seasons, averaging 27.7 yards per return and scoring two touchdowns. He caught six passes in 2017 and has just one career interception.

Jaylon Johnson, Utah (6-0, 193): Johnson returned his seven interceptions for a 23.6 average and two touchdowns. “Really, really good ball skills,” said one scout. “Big guy. More of a press guy. He struggles a little bit in off (coverage) with the change of direction. When he presses or plays zone, you see the burst.” He clocked a 4.51-second 40. “The Pac-12 isn’t the SEC, but there were some games he just looked bored,” a second scout said. “There were some games he wasn’t even getting challenged. He’s a starting No. 1 corner right now. There’s not a whole lot of holes in him.”

A.J. Terrell, Clemson (6-1, 195): Terrell was a two-year starter on great teams. “I was high on him until the playoff game,” one scout said, referring to how Terrell gave up two 50-plus-yard passes and a 14-yard touchdown pass to LSU’s Ja’Marr Chase in the national title game. “I really thought he was a steady player. He’s got height, aggressiveness, change of direction, good man and zone. He struggled against Chase, who will probably be the first receiver drafted next year. Is it really fair to knock the guy down for that, which we do? He played well up until then.” Terrell stood out at the combine, clocking at 4.40 in the 40. “He had a bad game in the big game, but he didn’t quit,” said another scout. “He kept fighting. His mental toughness is really good. This kid has more skill than the kid Oakland drafted (Trayvon Mullen, taken in the second round in 2019).”

Trevon Diggs, Alabama (6-1 1/2, 205): Diggs enrolled as a wide receiver and safety before moving to cornerback as a sophomore. “Stefon’s brother,” one scout said. “He’s really talented. Little bit of a makeup issue with him. It’s just maturity and consistency. He has first-round potential.” Diggs broke a foot in 2018 that cut short his season after six games, and he elected not to test at the combine. “I kind of liked him two years ago, and then he got hurt,” a second scout said. “He’s strictly a zone player. I don’t think he can run. He hits. I thought free safety is probably his best position. He’s a smart, aggressive player, but I don’t think he has the quickness for corner.” Another scout said he was weak against the run. “He’s one of those guys who finds every way out to get out of a tackle,” he said. “People have him in the first round. I really don’t like anything about him.”

From Bob McGinn's annual chat with scouts.  

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5 hours ago, massraider said:

I'll be completely fine with Lamb at 12, but Jeudy is my guy, has been favorite WR since last year.  He's going to get open the minute he's in the NFL, and when he gets better at route running? 🤯  Isaac Bruce.  And if we ARE rolling with Carr for next few years, if Grayock are in on Carr, I want guys that get wide open, rather than contested catch guys. Carr is conservative, I don't want him having to learn to throw it up and let his guys get it. I want guys that get wide open, so he can see it, and throw it in time, WCO-style. 

This is the best argument I've seen for Jeudy above the other top 2 WR's.  Makes a ton of sense if Carr is our guy.  And welcome back @massraider

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6 hours ago, ICON211 said:

Here is my take of Jeudy vs. Lamb:

I would take Jeudy over Lamb.  Both have superstar potential, but Jeudy is more polished with a less likely chance to bust, IMO.  Lamb might be a little more explosive and might be better after the catch, but he never saw press coverage so there is a bit of an unknown there how he will fare.  I think the part Mass wrote about Carr being conservative and wanting the guy that gets wide open is interesting and completely valid.  He just will not throw the ball over 10 yards unless there is a good deal of separation.   

Ugh.   So glad I don’t have to make the decision between the big 3.  I still like Lamb for the record.  

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It's time to consider the concept that Tua will fall to 12.  Tua Time, if you will.  

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PFF on the 2nd wave of WRs:

 

Quote

THE DEEP THREATS

K.J. Hamler, Penn State

Most of the legit deep threats in this class are expected to go early on in that first tier, but Hamler is firmly in that second wave of wideouts expected to come off the board on Day 2. Hamler hauled in 11-of-21 deep targets from the slot for five touchdowns. Those 11 deep receptions were the third most of any receiver in the country from the slot last year. The modern NFL passing game is trending toward vertical threats from the slot, and Hamler’s elite speed and quicks will play at the next level.

The worrisome thing about Hamler at the moment is his ball skills. He has far too many drops on tape for a team to feel comfortable taking him ahead of the guys in the top tier of this class. Hamler dropped an astounding 12 balls on only 68 catchable throws last season — that’s an astounding 17.6%. We’ve seen guys clean up drops in the NFL, though, and you can’t coach a player to be as electric in space as Hamler.

John Hightower, Boise State

Hightower is yet another wideout with some speed to burn as he clocked in with a 4.43 at the Combine in Indianapolis. That showed up repeatedly on tape as he averaged 18.5 yards per catch this past season. The Boise State wideout is exceptionally fluid and he isn’t simply winning by striding straight past slower defensive backs on go balls. He sells post-corners and other downfield double moves exceptionally well. We’d love to see him continue to add muscle to his frame, though, as he still only checked in at the Combine weighing 189 pounds — and his ability to fight through contact was inhibited because of it.

THE BIG DOGS

Michael Pittman Jr., USC

Pittman is my bet for this year’s most overthought prospect. You can chase high-end athletic tools all you want, but give me guys like Pittman who know the receiver position like the back of their hand. He can not only separate on the underneath and intermediate route trees, but Pittman is terrific at using his size to stack cornerbacks down the football field. In terms of completeness at the receiver position, Pittman is right up there with anyone in the draft class. What really separates him are his hands. He’s dropped only five passes on 176 catchable targets in his career.

Antonio Gandy-Golden, Liberty

Gandy-Golden is a very productive and intriguing small school wide receiver. He was pumped 263 targets over the past two seasons at Liberty and went for over 1,000 yards and 10 touchdowns each season. Maybe more impressively, Gandy-Golden broke 17 tackles on 70 catches in 2018 and then 16 on 79 this past season. He’s far more nimble than you’d expect from a 6-foot-4, 220-pound wideout, and it really showed after the catch. While he looked impressive with his releases at the Senior Bowl in Mobile, his route-running is still a work in progress. Gandy-Golden has the type of background that you bet on developing exceptionally well in the NFL. He started off as a gymnast, can solve a Rubik's cube in a minute, bowled a perfect game only a few months after he started bowling, and has a Michael Vick-esque cannon for an arm.

THE ROUTE RUNNERS

Tyler Johnson, Minnesota

Johnson won’t be wowing anybody with his athleticism anytime soon. The fact that he healthy scratched himself at the Combine should tell you all you need to know about how his numbers would have looked. No matter, all Johnson did at Minnesota was follow up his 90.7 receiving grade as a junior with a 92.2 receiving grade this past year — the highest in the country. Whether it’s from the slot or out wide, Johnson gets open. And even when he’s not, Johnson will still haul in passes. He went 16-of-24 in contested catch situations this past season. While he may not blaze the fastest 40 or have the highest vert, Johnson is solidly built and arguably the craftiest route-runner in the draft class.

K.J. Hill, Ohio State

I said Johnson was ‘arguably’ the craftiest route-runner because Hill has a legit claim to that title. Don’t let the lack of raw numbers fool you with Hill — the Ohio State receiving corps was loaded in his career there. At the Senior Bowl, Hill cooked every single defensive back he faced en route to a 92% win rate. He’s right up there with Jerry Jeudy in his ability to separate immediately at the line of scrimmage and on the underneath route tree. Plug him into the slot in your offense and don’t look back.

THE YAC-STARS

Jauan Jennings, Tennessee

In a class that features upward of five first-round-type talents at wide receiver all with dynamic athletic profiles, it was actually Jennings who led the entire country last season in broken tackles. He broke a ridiculous 30 tackles on only 59 catches last season — four more than any other receiver in the country. His balance and ability to slip free from defenders is second to none in the draft class. Unfortunately, he is limited athletically and ran only a 4.72 40-yard dash at the Combine. Still, Jennings can fill the big-slot role in an offense and turn underneath targets into first-downs routinely.

Devin Duvernay, Texas

Duvernay is on the opposite end of the YAC spectrum from Jennings. He’s a former track athlete who blazed a 4.39 in the 40-yard dash at the Combine. Jet-sweeps and screens are his bread and butter as Duvernay had the second most receptions on screens of any player in the country (42). He converted those into 17 first downs or scores and broke 14 tackles on them — both figures that led the country. With his combination of speed, power and elusiveness, he’ll quickly find a role in an NFL offense.

 

 

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Very relevant to Raiders:

 

Quote

Daniel Jeremiah

@MoveTheSticks

Most teams agree on top 4 WR’s and top 2 CB’s (the names, not the order) but then it gets wild. One team’s 5th WR might be another team’s 12th WR. One teams 3rd CB is another teams 8th CB. Can’t remember a year like this one. Impossible to predict anything after top 15-20 picks.

 

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I am avoiding Golden-Gandy and Claypool references because I knew nothing about them coming into the process and I despise flash risers like this.  That's how we get guys like DHB and Mike Mitchell.  I get that a guy from Liberty doesn't get a lot of stage time but I'll accept missing on the .01% of those that work out in favor of better-odds shots.  Gimmie Edwards or Pittman all day long.

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1 hour ago, massraider said:

It's time to consider the concept that Tua will fall to 12.  Tua Time, if you will.  

Not saying you are wrong, but where is that buzz coming from?  I personally think 6 is his floor.

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1 minute ago, ICON211 said:

Not saying you are wrong, but where is that buzz coming from?  I personally think 6 is his floor.

Several different news guys, and NFL writers mention that several teams have failed him on physicals. If the Chargers are one of those teams, his floor changes.  Matt Miller and Michael Lombardi have both made comments.  Miller said some teams were scared off, and Lombardi said two team failed him on the physical. (Lombardi is truly, truly, a clown, and I am unaware of teams giving physicals with all this going on, so.....grain of salt).

Don't get me wrong, I think MIA is likely, even tho we hearing they like Herbert.  BUT:  Not being able to examine him, and work him out, this is unprecedented.  It is a valid reason for a player to drop in the draft. All things being equal, I think it's the Fins.  If MIA takes Herbert, and SD rolls with Cam, well then it's right there for the taking.  Cam isn't going to sign till he knows that a team didn't draft Love or Herbert or Tua.  May as well wait till after the draft for that.  

Before the season, no way he drops out of the top 2.  Before that injury, no way he drops out of the top 5.  We all know stuff, till we don't.  

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46 minutes ago, massraider said:

Several different news guys, and NFL writers mention that several teams have failed him on physicals. If the Chargers are one of those teams, his floor changes.  Matt Miller and Michael Lombardi have both made comments.  Miller said some teams were scared off, and Lombardi said two team failed him on the physical. (Lombardi is truly, truly, a clown, and I am unaware of teams giving physicals with all this going on, so.....grain of salt).

Don't get me wrong, I think MIA is likely, even tho we hearing they like Herbert.  BUT:  Not being able to examine him, and work him out, this is unprecedented.  It is a valid reason for a player to drop in the draft. All things being equal, I think it's the Fins.  If MIA takes Herbert, and SD rolls with Cam, well then it's right there for the taking.  Cam isn't going to sign till he knows that a team didn't draft Love or Herbert or Tua.  May as well wait till after the draft for that.  

Before the season, no way he drops out of the top 2.  Before that injury, no way he drops out of the top 5.  We all know stuff, till we don't.  

Yeah, I agree with this.  I think it's Miami and that they are more likely than the Chargers to take him partly because they may think they can gamble on him because they have other first round picks.  I am seeing some people advocating for the Lions to take him and I think that is just not realistic at all.  I don't think they can trade Stafford due to cap ramifications (thought I read trading him would create a huge cap hit) and even if they did this regime has to be in win now mode and are not in a position to gamble on Tua.     

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I hope the Raiders don’t gamble on Tua.   Carr and Mariota Should be enough.   Would like to see the Raiders focus on building a team.   

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9 minutes ago, DocHolliday said:

I hope the Raiders don’t gamble on Tua.   Carr and Mariota Should be enough.   Would like to see the Raiders focus on building a team.   

I'm with you.  I wasn't sold on Tua before the hip injury.  Outside of Burrow I'm not all that high on any of the top QB prospects.  The guy I like a lot is Hurts.

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I would cream my jeans if we draft Tua.

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4 hours ago, Hankmoody said:

I am avoiding Golden-Gandy and Claypool references because I knew nothing about them coming into the process and I despise flash risers like this.  That's how we get guys like DHB and Mike Mitchell.  I get that a guy from Liberty doesn't get a lot of stage time but I'll accept missing on the .01% of those that work out in favor of better-odds shots.  Gimmie Edwards or Pittman all day long.

Claypool isn't a flash riser. 

Produced decently as a Junior and then took over as #1 at ND and produced. Still considered raw. 

6'4" with strength as 5th best reps on bench and decent enough speed at 4.42 (7th best at combine) and athletic with 5th best vertical jump. He does well competing for balls. There are questions about him being quick enough to get consistent seperation but even if that is true will be a red zone force for sure. I think he is more raw but with coaching has enough to get seperation. A 3rd round steal and would compliment a Jeudy/CeeDee, Williams, Renfrow starters nicely. 

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12 hours ago, Hankmoody said:

I would cream my jeans if we draft Tua.

:hifive:  FOR REALZ.

It feels like we are rolling with Carr this year. OK with me, with reservations. Mariota is a great backup, and a reclamation project. But Mariota doesn't stop me from making a move for a starter. Carr is the only factor there. The team decides to ignore Cam? That's because of Carr. Signing a nice backup shouldn't affect the decison-making. 

To me, there are enough doubts with Carr, that if a franchise QB presents himself, I'm gonna draft him.  I don't know for sure. I'm not angry that Carr is the guy. I would LOVE for us to win consistently with him. My feeling is that he's closer to Andy Dalton than Philip Rivers. 

If Grayock rolls with Carr this year, and Carr doesn't reward that trust, that's an indictment as far as I'm concerned.  I WILL hold it against them. I don't hold it against Gruden that we didn't take Lamar Jackson over Kolton Miller.  It didn't make sense. But, there are QBs available to this team. If they pass on Cam, don't make a move for Tua (if possible), pass on Love, Eason, Hurts, whoever and a couple of those guys explode and become studs, that is a failing grade for the braintrust.

But I'm not trying to convince anyone!  Because I could easily be wrong, and I am rooting for him to show he's a winner. I am rooting to be wrong. 

Gruden has had two years, he needs to know what he has by now in Carr. The decision to roll with Carr this year needs to be the right one.  

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10 minutes ago, massraider said:

To me, there are enough doubts with Carr, that if a franchise QB presents himself, I'm gonna draft him.  I don't know for sure. I'm not angry that Carr is the guy. I would LOVE for us to win consistently with him. My feeling is that he's closer to Andy Dalton than Philip Rivers. 

I love Derek Carr the person and the representative he is.  I would love nothing more than for him to be the guy and win us a SB, would much rather do it with him than a diva like Cam or a #### like Winston.  But to your point, when you get a chance at a true franchise guy you take it.  You leave a guy like Carr or Flacco or Dalton behind and you go for it.  If you're wrong you're wrong but at least you fired the shot.  Eight teams including the 49ers, Jags, Jets, Titans, Chargers, and Bengals all passed on QB with Mahomes and Watson in 2017.  Rivers maybe was capable of being a SB QB but all those other teams are kicking themselves now.  I was praying we'd draft Haskins last year for the same reason (I know people are gonna pshaw that but it's way too early to evaluate that one) - take the shot.  Especially Mayock who's early enough he could probably have survived a miss and Gruden certainly can.

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I think Carr is a great person as well, but as most people in here know based on my posts, I was ready to move on from him this offseason.  I also do not love the QBs in this draft.  I am not a big Mariota fan either, but I think Gruden and Mayock are and Gruden may view him similar to Gannon.  

I trust Gruden and Mayock and if there is a QB in this draft that they think could be great they should take him.  The most likely scenario IMO is going into the season with Carr as the starter and turning to Mariota if Carr is not playing up to Gruden's standards.  

My preferred path would be to draft Hurts, but might have to trade up into the second round to do it.  

I have not really heard this mentioned anywhere and I know this is a long shot to happen, but based on what they do int he draft I still do not consider Carr a 100% lock to be on the roster when the season starts.   

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37 minutes ago, ICON211 said:

 

My preferred path would be to draft Hurts, but might have to trade up into the second round to do it.  

 

I wish that I thought this coaching staff is willing to give the ball to a Hurts, and change their offense to suit him, but I sure don't get that vibe from Gruden. 

For the sake of discussion though:  I'm not trading UP for Hurts. I'm trading DOWN for Hurts.  I'll drop down from 12, to the 20's, get a 2nd rounder, and take him late in the 1st. I'll take [enter your favorite choice at #19 here] and Hurts, and I'll sort CB or WR out later. Getting a franchise QB late in the 1st is the dream. If you over-draft Hurts by a round, but he's a good QB, well he wasn't freaking over-drafted. I'm not gonna be mad that they took Hurts late in the 1st becuase some pudgy guys on the internet think he's a mid 2nd rounder.  

Jordan Love is ranked over Hurts, and from what I can tell it's only because he HAS been ranked over him all season long. If Hurts had a 2018 season like his 2019 season, and Love did as well, then Hurts would be ranked over him, that's a fact.  Love had a terrible 2019. Decision-making was Winston-esque.  

Trading down, and adding capital, AND getting your QB is ideal.  I'd be happy if we traded our 1st next year to move up for Tua, so imagine what I think about trading down, getting extra picks, and getting Hurts.  

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26 minutes ago, massraider said:

 

For the sake of discussion though:  I'm not trading UP for Hurts. I'm trading DOWN for Hurts.  I'll drop down from 12, to the 20's, get a 2nd rounder, and take him late in the 1st. I'll take [enter your favorite choice at #19 here] and Hurts, and I'll sort CB or WR out later. Getting a franchise QB late in the 1st is the dream. If you over-draft Hurts by a round, but he's a good QB, well he wasn't freaking over-drafted. I'm not gonna be mad that they took Hurts late in the 1st becuase some pudgy guys on the internet think he's a mid 2nd rounder.  

 

I should have considered the trade down route and taking him in the first.  I like that idea and I would be completely fine with that as well.

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I got to ask... was there a significant difference in play from Carr in 2016 than last year? 

The answer is statistically not a whole lot. A half dozen or so more TD's and a couple more INT's. One year the team weny 12-4 and clearly was largely due to him and the other we go 7-9.  

I am getting sick of the pooping on Carr crap. It is the same mob mentality that was screaming for Cable's head on a platter this time last year and now... what? (Granted, I wasn't exactly saying people were wrong about Cable but it is a determination made without looking at the full picture like the massive amount of Oline injuries in 2018). 

He has played from good to MVP caliber on some bad to somewhat decent teams. Last year earning over 100 QB rating with no true #1, our best WR hobbled the whole year and second best a 5th round rookie that also missed a chunk of time. 

We can and will win games with Carr. We need a whole and complete team around him to win consistently though. Grayock is building that now. 

Really 'nuff said.

 

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9 hours ago, Hankmoody said:

I love Derek Carr the person and the representative he is.  I would love nothing more than for him to be the guy and win us a SB, would much rather do it with him than a diva like Cam or a #### like Winston.  But to your point, when you get a chance at a true franchise guy you take it.  You leave a guy like Carr or Flacco or Dalton behind and you go for it.  If you're wrong you're wrong but at least you fired the shot.  Eight teams including the 49ers, Jags, Jets, Titans, Chargers, and Bengals all passed on QB with Mahomes and Watson in 2017.  Rivers maybe was capable of being a SB QB but all those other teams are kicking themselves now.  I was praying we'd draft Haskins last year for the same reason (I know people are gonna pshaw that but it's way too early to evaluate that one) - take the shot.  Especially Mayock who's early enough he could probably have survived a miss and Gruden certainly can.

Take the shot? How many teams take that shot every year with a QB? How many of them prosper? 

We have a QB. 

Get the playmakers on the team to make a difference. 

It wasn't Carr losing games last year. It was the Raiders.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

Take the shot? How many teams take that shot every year with a QB? How many of them prosper? 

We have a QB. 

Get the playmakers on the team to make a difference. 

It wasn't Carr losing games last year. It was the Raiders.

He was bad in the biggest game of the year in KC.  Jacobs ran for 100 yards in the first half and Carr put negative 7 points on the board with a pick 6.  I realize that is only one game, and he was not losing games last year, but he is not a QB that will lift the team around him and win games either.  They gave him a playmaker with Amari Cooper and he had no idea how to use him.  Amari looks like a completely different player in Dallas and part of that is on Carr.  In his six year career he has had one really good year.  He is not a terrible QB, he's just ok and he is not a difference maker.  You can win with that type of QB, but it's a lot harder and I'd rather try to get a guy that is a difference maker at QB.     

Edited by ICON211

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1 hour ago, ICON211 said:

He was bad in the biggest game of the year in KC.  Jacobs ran for 100 yards in the first half and Carr put negative 7 points on the board with a pick 6.  I realize that is only one game, and he was not losing games last year, but he is not a QB that will lift the team around him and win games either.  They gave him a playmaker with Amari Cooper and he had no idea how to use him.  Amari looks like a completely different player in Dallas and part of that is on Carr.  In his six year career he has had one really good year.  He is not a terrible QB, he's just ok and he is not a difference maker.  You can win with that type of QB, but it's a lot harder and I'd rather try to get a guy that is a difference maker at QB.     

This gets to the heart of the issue. The question Raiders should be asking themselves: Is Carr good enough to beat Mahomes with everything else being equal? Granted, it is a simplification of all the complexities around building a competitive team, but until the Raiders have a QB good enough to stand toe to toe with Mahomes they will be swimming in place.

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3 hours ago, ICON211 said:

He was bad in the biggest game of the year in KC.  Jacobs ran for 100 yards in the first half and Carr put negative 7 points on the board with a pick 6.  I realize that is only one game, and he was not losing games last year, but he is not a QB that will lift the team around him and win games either.  They gave him a playmaker with Amari Cooper and he had no idea how to use him.  Amari looks like a completely different player in Dallas and part of that is on Carr.  In his six year career he has had one really good year.  He is not a terrible QB, he's just ok and he is not a difference maker.  You can win with that type of QB, but it's a lot harder and I'd rather try to get a guy that is a difference maker at QB.     

Pure BS. 

Yes, you are right. One game and he wasn't losing games. 

Amari still disappears with Dallas. We consistently had to feed him in past as a Raider. He has played better with Dallas but I am overjoyed we got a 1st for him and would have been pissed if we overpaid to keep him on the roster like Dallas just did. I never saw anything that said Derek had no idea how to use him. Whether it was the past schemes or being unhappy or whatever, I am not sure but there is no reason to put the amount of drops Amari had on Carr for sure. 

He had more yards and a higher QB rating than he did in 2016. Less TD's and a couple more INT's while having Waller to throw to and that was it for about half the year. 

He WAS the difference maker in 2016. We would NOT have been 12-4 without him. But we throw that out and hang crappy coaching and teams around his neck on years he still performed through it with just a little bit of a fall off in production. 

We get him that full team around him I will expect apologies to him and a bunch of "you were right Chad" as well. All I want is a clear #1 WR along with what we have, a decently healthy season on the offense and it will roll. Then all of the mob yapping about Carr will just stop yapping... just like they did with Cable. 

What pisses me off isn't a difference in opinion, it is the mindless mob of "we are not winning, need a new QB" without a complete and full analysis. It is a bunch of mindless parrots who can't think for themselves. That mob is fickle and will cheer him when he is on the way to another MVP caliber season... and many will never even admit how wrong they were. They will act like they were real Raiders all along.

 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

Pure BS. 

Yes, you are right. One game and he wasn't losing games. 

Amari still disappears with Dallas. We consistently had to feed him in past as a Raider. He has played better with Dallas but I am overjoyed we got a 1st for him and would have been pissed if we overpaid to keep him on the roster like Dallas just did. I never saw anything that said Derek had no idea how to use him. Whether it was the past schemes or being unhappy or whatever, I am not sure but there is no reason to put the amount of drops Amari had on Carr for sure. 

He had more yards and a higher QB rating than he did in 2016. Less TD's and a couple more INT's while having Waller to throw to and that was it for about half the year. 

He WAS the difference maker in 2016. We would NOT have been 12-4 without him. But we throw that out and hang crappy coaching and teams around his neck on years he still performed through it with just a little bit of a fall off in production. 

We get him that full team around him I will expect apologies to him and a bunch of "you were right Chad" as well. All I want is a clear #1 WR along with what we have, a decently healthy season on the offense and it will roll. Then all of the mob yapping about Carr will just stop yapping... just like they did with Cable. 

What pisses me off isn't a difference in opinion, it is the mindless mob of "we are not winning, need a new QB" without a complete and full analysis. It is a bunch of mindless parrots who can't think for themselves. That mob is fickle and will cheer him when he is on the way to another MVP caliber season... and many will never even admit how wrong they were. They will act like they were real Raiders all along.

 

You need to check yourself.  You're welcome to your opinion but I'm far from mindless nor a parrot and there are plenty of other quality posters in here as well.  And for 42 years I've been here. I watched DHB and Mitchell picks and drafting Robert Gallery over Larry Fitzgerald, skipping Aaron Rodgers for Fabian Washington, and as a result the following year taking Jamarcus over Calvin Johnson.  I watched our coach go win a SB with someone else's players on someone else's team.  I'm as real as a ####### Raider gets.

Edited by Hankmoody

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2 hours ago, 32 Counter Pass said:

This gets to the heart of the issue. The question Raiders should be asking themselves: Is Carr good enough to beat Mahomes with everything else being equal? Granted, it is a simplification of all the complexities around building a competitive team, but until the Raiders have a QB good enough to stand toe to toe with Mahomes they will be swimming in place.

Really?

Mahomes, as much as it pains me to say this, is THE new QB to beat with Lamar closw behind him. Rodgers, Brady and Brees are in the past and time is clocking on them being out completely. 

QB's of the Mahomes caliber don't come out every year. Hell... even when they do they aren't easy to call... Brady 7th round, Rodgers falls in the 1st after Alex Smith is chosen first, Brees is allowed to walk in FA because they had Rivers, very few had faith in Lamar (how many offers did I get in the off season for him and turned down last year?) even after he played a year... do I go on? 

Is there a QB better than Mahomes in this draft? That is what you are asking for here. If so... who is it? Are we able to get that QB at 12? 

Oh. But you say we don't need a QB better than Mahomes just a QB better than Carr? So then how do we beat them with still a team with less talented QB. Yea... not sure I see that helping. 

Carr isn't Mahomes. We know that. But he isn't that far off either. Let's get a better team than chase dreams of another Mahomes. We can win with Carr if we have the team to do it. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Hankmoody said:

You need to check yourself.  You're welcome to your opinion but I'm far from mindless nor a parrot and there are plenty of other quality posters in here as well.

No checking required. No specific accusations of who is of the mob and who has a difference of opinion. I understand that you took that as a stab at you because I was replying to your post but it wasn't leveled at you. 

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29 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

Pure BS. 

He WAS the difference maker in 2016. We would NOT have been 12-4 without him. But we throw that out and hang crappy coaching and teams around his neck on years he still performed through it with just a little bit of a fall off in production. 

What pisses me off isn't a difference in opinion, it is the mindless mob of "we are not winning, need a new QB" without a complete and full analysis. It is a bunch of mindless parrots who can't think for themselves. That mob is fickle and will cheer him when he is on the way to another MVP caliber season... and many will never even admit how wrong they were. They will act like they were real Raiders all along.

 

You bring up 2016 Carr.  2016 Carr is pre-injury Carr.  I would argue he's changed as a QB since then.  He has happy feet and doesn't see open receivers.  I don't consider myself mindless or a member of any mob.  I just know what I see.  I see a QB in Carr who has 4th down at the end of a game needing to "score now or lose" and take the ball and throw it away.  Game over.  And then he does it again in another game.   You speak about disCarrding Carr without getting a "full analysis".  How many losing seasons with bonehead plays like the two I mentioned before you've seen enough.  Oh and before you label me as part of some mindless mob like you did the other poster, I do agree we have too many holes to use a first round pick on a QB.  Maybe if Tua somehow falls, but if that happens I'd rather see if someone will give us a trade so we can have more picks.  

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32 minutes ago, elshagon said:

You bring up 2016 Carr.  2016 Carr is pre-injury Carr.  I would argue he's changed as a QB since then.  He has happy feet and doesn't see open receivers.  I don't consider myself mindless or a member of any mob.  I just know what I see.  I see a QB in Carr who has 4th down at the end of a game needing to "score now or lose" and take the ball and throw it away.  Game over.  And then he does it again in another game.   You speak about disCarrding Carr without getting a "full analysis".  How many losing seasons with bonehead plays like the two I mentioned before you've seen enough.  Oh and before you label me as part of some mindless mob like you did the other poster, I do agree we have too many holes to use a first round pick on a QB.  Maybe if Tua somehow falls, but if that happens I'd rather see if someone will give us a trade so we can have more picks.  

Statistically you are wrong. 

As noted, there isn't a whole lot of difference from last year and the MVP run 12-4 season of 2016. Last year was more yards, higher QB rating, 7 less TD's and 2 more INT's while hechad Waller a banged up Williams and a rookie who missed a few games to throw to. 

A true #1 and a decently healthy year with a improved defense is the difference maker. Not following some wet dream of a Mahome clone to replace a damn good QB. 

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3 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

Statistically you are wrong. 

As noted, there isn't a whole lot of difference from last year and the MVP run 12-4 season of 2016. Last year was more yards, higher QB rating, 7 less TD's and 2 more INT's while hechad Waller a banged up Williams and a rookie who missed a few games to throw to. 

A true #1 and a decently healthy year with a improved defense is the difference maker. Not following some wet dream of a Mahome clone to replace a damn good QB. 

Except for the bonehead plays and all the losing and not passing the eye test.  I never said anything about drafting "some wet dream of a Mahomes clone" to replace him.  Did you even read my post?  I said we have too many holes to go draft a QB early.  We can win with Carr if we have a great defense, great receivers and a great running game.  Carr needs all that to make up for his average play.  Every year it's a different excuse.  This year we'll draft a couple receivers and come next year's draft the blame will be placed on someone besides Carr again.  It will be "the young receivers need a couple of years before we can truly analyze Carr".  

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42 minutes ago, elshagon said:

Except for the bonehead plays and all the losing and not passing the eye test.  I never said anything about drafting "some wet dream of a Mahomes clone" to replace him.  Did you even read my post?  I said we have too many holes to go draft a QB early.  We can win with Carr if we have a great defense, great receivers and a great running game.  Carr needs all that to make up for his average play.  Every year it's a different excuse.  This year we'll draft a couple receivers and come next year's draft the blame will be placed on someone besides Carr again.  It will be "the young receivers need a couple of years before we can truly analyze Carr".  

We get him a #1, that plays like a rookie #1, with the rest of what we got and short of a meltdown of injuries his stats will be better than 2016. Whether we win or not will be on how much our D improves. No doubt in my mind. 

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1 hour ago, elshagon said:

You bring up 2016 Carr.  2016 Carr is pre-injury Carr.  I would argue he's changed as a QB since then.  He has happy feet and doesn't see open receivers.  I don't consider myself mindless or a member of any mob.  I just know what I see.  I see a QB in Carr who has 4th down at the end of a game needing to "score now or lose" and take the ball and throw it away.  Game over.  And then he does it again in another game.   You speak about disCarrding Carr without getting a "full analysis".  How many losing seasons with bonehead plays like the two I mentioned before you've seen enough.  Oh and before you label me as part of some mindless mob like you did the other poster, I do agree we have too many holes to use a first round pick on a QB.  Maybe if Tua somehow falls, but if that happens I'd rather see if someone will give us a trade so we can have more picks.  

I’m very hopeful about Carr and don’t want the Raiders to draft a QB, but the bolded above really sticks in my craw and I have a hard time getting over that. I mean, in my decades of watching football, I can’t recall a QB not trying to squeeze in an impossible throw or at least put it up for grabs when the game is literally on the line on 4th down at the end of a game. It was a head scratcher beyond head scratchers, and makes me very concerned about his future. 
 

hope I’m wrong and Chad is right. 

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7 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

Really?

Mahomes, as much as it pains me to say this, is THE new QB to beat with Lamar closw behind him. Rodgers, Brady and Brees are in the past and time is clocking on them being out completely. 

QB's of the Mahomes caliber don't come out every year. Hell... even when they do they aren't easy to call... Brady 7th round, Rodgers falls in the 1st after Alex Smith is chosen first, Brees is allowed to walk in FA because they had Rivers, very few had faith in Lamar (how many offers did I get in the off season for him and turned down last year?) even after he played a year... do I go on? 

Is there a QB better than Mahomes in this draft? That is what you are asking for here. If so... who is it? Are we able to get that QB at 12? 

Oh. But you say we don't need a QB better than Mahomes just a QB better than Carr? So then how do we beat them with still a team with less talented QB. Yea... not sure I see that helping. 

Carr isn't Mahomes. We know that. But he isn't that far off either. Let's get a better team than chase dreams of another Mahomes. We can win with Carr if we have the team to do it. 

 

The difference between Carr and Mahomes is HUGE.  It's ridiculous to say they are close.  The chance of getting someone as good as Mahomes is not likely, but the chance of getting someone better than Carr is pretty high.  If I give Burrow to the Bengals and Tua to the Dolphins and look at all other 31 teams I can say i would want Carr as my QB over the following:

Pats - Stidham

Colts - Rivers

Jags - Minshew

Chargers - Tyrod

Bears - Trubisky/Foles

Skins - Haskins

Broncos - Lock

Giants - Jones

That's it.  And I'd have to think really hard on some of those.  I have watched every game of Carr's career for six years.  I think that allows me to have an opinion that the team needs to improve at the QB position.  I'm not saying they have to draft a QB at 12 or 19 or that I even want them to, but they need better play at QB and after six years of watching him play I don't think Carr is the answer.  If Mayock and Gruden think there is a difference maker available they should take him.

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And here is the discussion.   What to do with Carr?   I don’t think that there will be a better QB than Carr at pick 12 and am going to remain in the Keep Carr Camp.   Carr isn’t a great QB though.   He doesn’t put pressure on defenses and is way too conservative.   

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The team has definitely put itself in a position where they aren't looking for a QB.  I just wonder if if they are thinking about making a move for a QB if one presents itself.  

I think they can win with Carr, but need to a 2016 line in front of him, and a really good defense. With some of these other QBs, I feel like they can cover up faults better than Carr, that's all.

Mahomes is great, but he also is the beneficiary of a WR as well as a TE that few teams can truly account for, plus an array of superior RAC guys. PLUS a really great game caller in Reid. I swear, Andy Reid is having himself a freaking blast calling the games with Hill, Kelce, Hardman et al.  

We run the WCO, power running, Gruden wants to wear the defense down with the O-line and play design, so I hope the offensive playmakers they add are RAC guys. Jeudy, Raegor, Bowden, there are some guys. If we aren'y going to have a QB who puts pressure on defenses with their legs, then it needs to be the skill guys. 

Going by what we did in FA, which was almost exclusively defense, and what we did in the draft last year, we can expect more offense than defense in th draft.  Two WRs of different skill sets would be great, an interior OL.........and then I kind of get stuck. There's a RB hole, I guess.  OT and TE don't seem like likely picks in the first three rounds, if at all. 

I don't think Edge is gonna be a spot. Not with Maxx, Cle, Nassib and Key.  DT has Hankins, Collins, Hurst, Hall. There's room for a 5th, but unless it's Brown or Kinlaw, I dunno if there's a guy that cracks the top 3. 

There's some LBs that make sense in the 3rd round and on. Jordyn Brooks Akeem Davis-GaitherWillie Gay Jr.  

CB obvi. So that's a spot. We need a FS type, if Randall is one and done, which I hope he's not.  There's more holes on defense than offense really.  

 

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19LVJustin JeffersonWRLSU

26LVJaylon JohnsonCBUtah

39LVMichael Pittman Jr.WRUSC

80LVLloyd Cushenberry IIIGLSU

81LVAmik RobertsonCBLouisiana Tech

91LVTerrell BurgessSUtah

121LVJabari ZunigaEDFlorida

159LVAnthony McFarland Jr.RBMaryland

One trade down, with MIA:  12 for 26 and 39.  I might throw myself out the window from joy if this went down, LOL.  Should be noted: I took Pittman over Kenneth Murray at 39. Murray probably a better pick, but with the new LBs, I think Pittman makes more sense.  

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A few random thoughts as I play catchup on a very active discussion (Love to see it! - Welcome back boys!)

I'm a Carr believer.

Maholmes and the KC Offence, as a whole is a very risky measuring stick.   Outside of Lamar + Ravens who will push them if they can continue what they started last year, there are no other teams like them.    They are the teams you need to beat, no question.  But saying a player isn't good enough because he isn't Maholmes is basically instantly writing off 30+ QBs in the league.   Same goes for the measurements against Brady in his prime.   

If Tua is there at 12 and Mayock has him as the Best Player Available then he must take him.  Not a measurement of Carr, it's a measurement of Tua verse the next guy on the Raiders board. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Players I hope are in consideration at 12 or 19:

WR Jeudy, Lamb, Ruggs

DT Brown, Kinlaw

LB Simmons, Murray

CB Okudah, Henderson, Johnson

S Winfield

I'd be very happy with two of those guys if the Raiders stay put and pick at 12 and 19.  I realize there is close to a zero percent chance that Okudah or Simmons are there, but I can dream.

Edited by ICON211

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33 minutes ago, ICON211 said:

Players I hope are in consideration at 12 or 19:

WR Jeudy, Lamb, Ruggs

DT Brown, Kinlaw

LB Simmons, Murray

CB Okudah, Henderson, Johnson

S Winfield

I'd be very happy with two of those guys if the Raiders stay put and pick at 12 and 19.  I realize there is close to a zero percent chance that Okudah or Simmons are there, but I can dream.

Regarding Kinlaw, I've seen some buzz that teams have motor/commitment questions. Vic Tafur has said the Raiders are not big on Kinlaw, which is interesting. Tafur also said the Raiders like Tee Higgins.

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6 hours ago, ICON211 said:

The difference between Carr and Mahomes is HUGE.  It's ridiculous to say they are close.  The chance of getting someone as good as Mahomes is not likely, but the chance of getting someone better than Carr is pretty high.  If I give Burrow to the Bengals and Tua to the Dolphins and look at all other 31 teams I can say i would want Carr as my QB over the following:

Pats - Stidham

Colts - Rivers

Jags - Minshew

Chargers - Tyrod

Bears - Trubisky/Foles

Skins - Haskins

Broncos - Lock

Giants - Jones

That's it.  And I'd have to think really hard on some of those.  I have watched every game of Carr's career for six years.  I think that allows me to have an opinion that the team needs to improve at the QB position.  I'm not saying they have to draft a QB at 12 or 19 or that I even want them to, but they need better play at QB and after six years of watching him play I don't think Carr is the answer.  If Mayock and Gruden think there is a difference maker available they should take him.

Not too far off and close are not synonyms. 

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5 hours ago, Cold Dead Hands said:

Imagine what last year would have looked like if Brown hadn’t melted down and that Rookie safety had stayed healthy. 

Absolutely. I am telling you.... the whole offense changed dramatically from having AB on the field and then him going looney tooney. Carr had Waller to throw to, Williams running on one leg for a third of the season when he wasn't out and a developing rookie (who definetely made strides late in the season after coming back from being injured). Yet, still threw for 4K yards and had a QB rating over 100. 7 TD's less and 2 more INT's than his 2016 season where he was in solid running for MVP. Yet.... he is suppose to be some bum we need to get rid of because of a couple of bone headed plays. 

 

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18 hours ago, ICON211 said:

I realize that is only one game, and he was not losing games last year, but he is not a QB that will lift the team around him and win games either.

Yes, that's a way to narrow sample size, and Carr is tied 2nd overall (with Peyton Manning) for single season 4th QB comebacks, 9th overall for career 4th Q comebacks for active QBs -- none of the QBs ahead of him are anywhere near his draft class (Brady, Brees, Big Ben, Ryan, Stafford, Eli, Rivers, Russ Wilson, Dalton).

I honestly don't get why Carr is so polarizing -- definitely support contra-opinion and fact, and any QB has flaws, but to act like he is a QB who can't help the team win is honestly baffling to me.

I do think we need to look for the QB of the future, as all teams always need to do. But by no means is it urgent -- I truly believe this season is going to be an ascendant one for Carr and the entire team.

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4 hours ago, massraider said:

The team has definitely put itself in a position where they aren't looking for a QB.  I just wonder if if they are thinking about making a move for a QB if one presents itself.  

I think they can win with Carr, but need to a 2016 line in front of him, and a really good defense. With some of these other QBs, I feel like they can cover up faults better than Carr, that's all.

Mahomes is great, but he also is the beneficiary of a WR as well as a TE that few teams can truly account for, plus an array of superior RAC guys. PLUS a really great game caller in Reid. I swear, Andy Reid is having himself a freaking blast calling the games with Hill, Kelce, Hardman et al.  

We run the WCO, power running, Gruden wants to wear the defense down with the O-line and play design, so I hope the offensive playmakers they add are RAC guys. Jeudy, Raegor, Bowden, there are some guys. If we aren'y going to have a QB who puts pressure on defenses with their legs, then it needs to be the skill guys. 

Going by what we did in FA, which was almost exclusively defense, and what we did in the draft last year, we can expect more offense than defense in th draft.  Two WRs of different skill sets would be great, an interior OL.........and then I kind of get stuck. There's a RB hole, I guess.  OT and TE don't seem like likely picks in the first three rounds, if at all. 

I don't think Edge is gonna be a spot. Not with Maxx, Cle, Nassib and Key.  DT has Hankins, Collins, Hurst, Hall. There's room for a 5th, but unless it's Brown or Kinlaw, I dunno if there's a guy that cracks the top 3. 

There's some LBs that make sense in the 3rd round and on. Jordyn Brooks Akeem Davis-GaitherWillie Gay Jr.  

CB obvi. So that's a spot. We need a FS type, if Randall is one and done, which I hope he's not.  There's more holes on defense than offense really.  

 

I think they were hoping for Hurt to drop into at least the mid rounds and maybe take him as a long term project. He has been rising so I don't think they will spend the draft capital on him that it would take to get him. Other than someone really falling that they like in the 5th or later, I don't expect a QB at all. We have Carr and Mariotta just signed. So, what would be the option? Trade Carr? The same people saying Carr is trash are the same that think we can trade him to some other team... someone needs to explain that to me... that might work on Madden but not in real life. And not when guys like Newton and Winston are FA's that can be had without giving up anything. 

Assuming Incognito has another year in him- I think this line can be better than 2016 line. We certainly finally have the right tackle spot figured out which was the only weakness we had before. Miller has been consistently good and progressing each year. Hudson is a stud. Jackson had a down year but hopefully he rebounds and Brown envelops anything in front of him. 

I expect our Defense to get better. We had a lot of injuries and a lot of youth on that side. Getting healthy guys like Abram back and having guys like Clelin, Maxx and Mullen get more time to develop in their sophomore years. Then bringing in Littleton is huge. I have high hopes for Kwiatkoski. Collins may be an underrated get as he can be disruptive in the interior. 

We need that #1 WR and could use another WR (like Claypool slotted as the future #4 with one of our thirds). We need a top CB. We need depth at CB. We could go with or not another LB (more and more base defense is a nickle so I could live with what we had at LB) essentially, if there isn't a CB there at 19 then I would be ok with a good LB or taking a guy like you mentioned in the third. Future concern is at G and then even C. Other than that it is all about upgrades.  

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4 hours ago, kaso said:

A few random thoughts as I play catchup on a very active discussion (Love to see it! - Welcome back boys!)

I'm a Carr believer.

Maholmes and the KC Offence, as a whole is a very risky measuring stick.   Outside of Lamar + Ravens who will push them if they can continue what they started last year, there are no other teams like them.    They are the teams you need to beat, no question.  But saying a player isn't good enough because he isn't Maholmes is basically instantly writing off 30+ QBs in the league.   Same goes for the measurements against Brady in his prime.   

If Tua is there at 12 and Mayock has him as the Best Player Available then he must take him.  Not a measurement of Carr, it's a measurement of Tua verse the next guy on the Raiders board. 

 

Seperately in regards to Tua... I think he falls... it is a big risk to take on a 1st for a guy you can't be sure will play at a high level ever again. I think his talent will keep him from going too far. My high end is bottom of the 1st. No later than mid 2nd. I could be wrong but that is my guess. 

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4 hours ago, ICON211 said:

Players I hope are in consideration at 12 or 19:

WR Jeudy, Lamb, Ruggs

DT Brown, Kinlaw

LB Simmons, Murray

CB Okudah, Henderson, Johnson

S Winfield

I'd be very happy with two of those guys if the Raiders stay put and pick at 12 and 19.  I realize there is close to a zero percent chance that Okudah or Simmons are there, but I can dream.

It is VERY unlikely Brown, Simmons or Okudah fall to us at 12. If one does, they are the only players that would trump my desire for Jeudy/Lamb at #12. I think people will trade up into the top 10 for QB's so there could be a run on QB's which will help us. I am confident that Jets take a WR before us if they don't trade down (I see them having a desire to do so if they found a willing mate). How many OT's are taken is going to be the real big factor on what falls to us at 12. I am not a fan of trading down from 12 (based on whom I think will be available there). I want playmakers on the team. We can get depth with our later rounds from Mayock's eye. 

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3 hours ago, massraider said:

Regarding Kinlaw, I've seen some buzz that teams have motor/commitment questions. Vic Tafur has said the Raiders are not big on Kinlaw, which is interesting. Tafur also said the Raiders like Tee Higgins.

Claypool > Higgins with similar skillsets and Claypool will be cheaper. (Yes, I am a big fan of his)

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