Punxsutawney Phil
Footballguy
What a mess. We basically took the country over and rebuilt it, then hand it over to Iran.
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U.S. Embassy in Iraq under attack (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Punxsutawney Phil
- Start date
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
This particular thing is Trump's mess. The Iraqis had been protesting against Iran. Now, they're protesting against the US. This was beyond dumb, we the US bombed militias that helped us in the fight against AQ and ISIS.
badmojo1006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Also Trump abandoned one of the few allies we had in the region, and I'm sure that didn't help matters.
badmojo1006
Footballguy
It is probably Iran behind the attack, but Iraqi security did nothing to stop the protesters from entering the Green Zone.
Punxsutawney Phil
Footballguy
The Twitter videos are pretty crazy. It looks like they either have control of the embassy or are just dancing all over the walls & chanting.
timschochet
Footballguy
I’m not as educated as I should be on this:
1. What did Trump do wrong? And were the wrong actions deliberate or well intentioned errors?
2. What should we do now?
timschochet
Footballguy
Here’s an opinion from Peter Bergen of CNN, who has been a huge critic of Trump in the past. He calls Sunday’s attacks “sensible and proportionate.”
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/29/opinions/airstrikes-iran-trump-doctrine-bergen/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/29/opinions/airstrikes-iran-trump-doctrine-bergen/index.html
jm192
Footballguy
It used to be something like this was an attack against all Americans. Nowadays, I guess we need to just pile on the president if we don't like him. Rather than coming together in these situations...
timschochet
Footballguy
The latter is a really important point
As to Trump’s claim that Iran is orchestrating the protest, I have to say I’m always skeptical about claims that protests can be organized by another country. This may be genuine outrage as well. The real problem here may also be that the Iraquis are very upset at their own government.
the moops
Footballguy
I don't see any mention of Trump in that quoted text. Do you not agree that it is a ####### mess over there? Nothing has truly gotten better since the war and there is still potential for it to get much worse.
timschochet
Footballguy
I agree with you. I was dumbfounded when the deaths at Benghazi were immediately turned into a partisan attack against Obama and Hillary Clinton that went on for 3 years. It was dumb and ugly and no doubt will influence attitudes this time around.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The Trump situation (fill in the blank) has meant people aren’t paying attention to other world events, but this has been simmering.
We the US just bombed/attacked Iran aligned militias in western Iraq. Iirc this is considered reprisal for acts by Iran in KSA, but please feel free to correct me on that.
Intentional. Trump canned McGurk and people like that who really understand this situation and I’m not sure he listens to whoever’s left.
Well we should be balancing our interests in Iraq and preserving what we’ve done there that’s good above everything else. Our provoking the people against us probably isn’t that.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Well.... kinda. I'm not really of the opinion that Kata'ib Hezbollah so much "helped us" as "also fought against ISIS." It's true that they and Peshmerga are occasionally on the same side of the battlefield, but only because they're both against ISIS. KH is not on the U.S. side, it just happens to also want ISIS eradicated. Shia/Sunni issue, not an anti-terrorist/terrorist issue.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
jm192
Footballguy
I assume the President and others have been paying attention to this.
One could argue this started under Bush, "simmered" through the Obama administration, and here we are today under Trump.
I assure you though, it's an American problem. Not a Trump problem. Not an Obama problem. Not a Democrat or Republican problem.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I guess I’ll add that the AUMF’s are just this continuing authorization to bomb anything anywhere for any reason apparently. Are we fighting Isis here? No. AQ? No. Hussein revanchists? Nope.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It's not crazy to have a targeted strike against KH for what has happened lately. It is quite possible to get us into a war with Iran if the President doesn't walk a pretty fine line, separating a strike against a rogue organization from rhetoric about Iran. He's definitely not walking it.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
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timschochet
Footballguy
Here is an excellent short article on the long-standing problems in Iraq:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/iraqs-discontent-its-roots-and-how-to-begin-fixing-it-124959
Yes it’s a mess. But it seems to me after reading that the biggest responsibility for that mess goes back to George W Bush’s Presidency, for well-intentioned but huge errors made during the occupancy and the formation of the existing Iraq constitution and government. Obama’s blame lies in ignoring the situation while trying to deal with ISIS and allowing it to get worse. Trump’s blame lies with continuing to ignore, and then abandoning the Kurds, our best ally in the region.
In short nobody comes out smelling like a rose here.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/iraqs-discontent-its-roots-and-how-to-begin-fixing-it-124959
Yes it’s a mess. But it seems to me after reading that the biggest responsibility for that mess goes back to George W Bush’s Presidency, for well-intentioned but huge errors made during the occupancy and the formation of the existing Iraq constitution and government. Obama’s blame lies in ignoring the situation while trying to deal with ISIS and allowing it to get worse. Trump’s blame lies with continuing to ignore, and then abandoning the Kurds, our best ally in the region.
In short nobody comes out smelling like a rose here.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I’ll just point out that increased Iran influence was baked in when we went in under Bush. It was said then. The Post 1919 borders were drawn to minimize Shia influence and the Baathists came to power because the borders and demographic mix weren’t enough. Ugly truth. We can’t sit on this country and suppress every flare up to infinity and that was never authorized in the first place.
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McBokonon
Footballguy
Whatever others remain after many were removed and replaced with sycophants or "acting" positions are most likely paying attention to it, maybe. The preponderance of evidence for Trump suggests that he doesn't fully understand the nuances of the region and doesn't pay attention to anything that isn't on TV all the time.
You're right about it being an American problem, though our current president has shown zero ability, knowledge, or temperament to demonstrate he'll deal with a delicate situation like this appropriately. But here's hoping.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Basically we ignored the warnings of Winston Churchill and forced an uneducated, divided population to be a “democracy”. The result was predictable: all the Shiites voted for Shiites, and since there are more Shiites than Sunnis the Shiites took over. They immediately allied themselves with Iran and began persecuting the Sunnis. Now they have a dictatorship and there are no free elections.
timschochet
Footballguy
While true, this may also be true of every President we’ve ever had.
But the problem with Trump is that he doesn’t listen to the State Department or CIA and often seems to prefer crazy conspiracy theories to his own advisors.
McBokonon
Footballguy
Not even close to the same thing and you know it. Nobody knows everything about a subject this complicated, of course, but this particular President has shown less foundational knowledge, and no ability or desire to learn more, than all of those who preceded him by a factor of a billion.
jm192
Footballguy
I just don't understand how you're close enough to the situation to understand his ability or want to learn.
I think Bush started the boulder rolling. Obama didn't do anything to stop it, and now today when Trump's president--you're just all to happy to make it his failure.
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McBokonon
Footballguy
I'm going by everything he's ever said, written/tweeted, and from pretty much all accounts of his capacity to learn from those who have known him (and aren't still relying on him for paychecks somehow.). He has never demonstrated the ability to move into nuanced areas on anything.
I'm not making it his failure, though. I know this ultimately goes back to even before your timetable.
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badmojo1006
Footballguy
Trump is now tweeting for the Iraqi citizens to rise up so they have their freedom and not influenced by Iran.
So, he is telling the Iraqi citizens to revolt against the Iraqi government?
Thought they were are allies.
So, he is telling the Iraqi citizens to revolt against the Iraqi government?
Thought they were are allies.
timschochet
Footballguy
And you’re equally happy to make it not his failure. It’s a little more complicated than either attitude.
I agree with you that we shouldn’t turn this into a “blame Trump” game, when IMO the main long term fault is Bush’s and Obama has some responsibility as well.
But I also agree with @McBokonon- I am highly uncomfortable with Trump as our commander in chief in this or any other high stress situation- I regard him as both ignorant and incompetent and would vastly prefer either Bush or Obama- at least I could trust them to listen to educated advisors. Nonetheless this is where we are so I hope for the best.
timschochet
Footballguy
He didn’t say rise up; he wrote “this is your time.” Nonetheless it seems dangerous to me. Is he directing this to the Sunnis?
jm192
Footballguy
I'm sorry if I gave you or any of the other posters to that impression. I think Trump definitely has some fault in this.
HellToupee
Footballguy
This tweet towards Donald in this tweet thread is interesting....
You have the most powerful intelligence agency in the world, filter out Iranian spies
parrot
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Not sure I agree with your characterization of blame here, but unquestionably Bush should shoulder the majority of the blame for everything in Iraq right now. However, the question of Trump's ability or desire to learn about what's going on in the Middle East is at least in part a matter of public record. From moving the Embassy in Israel to his actions in Syria, to misrepresentation of intelligence regarding Iran much of this year, he has demonstrated either an inability or an unwillingness to understand the obvious consequences of his actions and inactions.
Stay on the course. Hell can we build a wall around the golf course during this time. Let the big boys handle the situation
RBM
Footballguy
I think the lying about the YouTube video was what triggered the partisan fight just to correct you there.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
I’ve personally talked to multiple Congressmen who are Trump supporters who say flat out that Trump doesn’t read in an effort to educate himself on the issues. At all. Again, these aren’t anti-Trumpers, these are supporters (Duncan Hunter is one) who told me that at most, they hope to get him to read a one page, 3-5 bullet point synopsis of foreign policy.
Our foreign policy is being led by someone completely ignorant of the facts, context, and history of regions/conflicts that even the brightest foreign policy minds on earth have trouble finding winnable solutions. It’s like trying to ask a 3rd grader to solve PHD level math problems. It’s not fair to the 3rd graded, and how incredibly insane is it that half of us are willing to trust our lives to the 3rd grader getting the right answer?
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I am constantly amazed at the depth and breadth of your knowledge, and Henry's. I presume you each to be insomniacs who read news and opinion sources all night while the rest of us sleep.
msommer
Footballguy
Alternatively, we are in the matrix and they are outside loading programs as need be...
#thissteakisdelicious?
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