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SaintsInDome2006

The New Orleans Saints Vs Minnesota Vikings,1st Round Playoff, Live from the Louisiana Superdome

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Lot of contact both ways between Rudolph and the DB on that TD. DB never looked back either. I think no call was the correct call for that situation. 

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Color me shocked that the Saints get hosed again.  At least the NFL is consistent in that.   The rule was put in for exactly that reason and they turn around when it counted the most and give NO the shaft.  So awful.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Sand said:

Color me shocked that the Saints get hosed again.  At least the NFL is consistent in that.   The rule was put in for exactly that reason and they turn around when it counted the most and give NO the shaft.  So awful.

https://youtu.be/3qURByQxR8w?t=63

 

look at this angle. I see a db holding on and Rudolph pushing him off. Shaq-like .

Edited by GROOT

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14 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

great now we get to listen to this for the next 8 months minimum. Saints fans are some of the biggest complainers

But is was clearly pass interference.  The separation created with the push off allowed him to catch the ball.  In fact, the second year in a row for blown PI and the third in heartbreaking fashion.  I don't blame them for complaining.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, DropKick said:

But is was clearly pass interference.  The separation created with the push off allowed him to catch the ball.  In fact, the second year in a row for blown PI and the third in heartbreaking fashion.  I don't blame them for complaining.

They both were handsy there and yes, he did extend the arm for separation.. Issue is, they have not called that all season in replay on more obvious ones then that one so it would have been a complete shock had they done so in the playoffs. :mellow:

ETA.. Al Riveron stating what I posted.. Consistent with how they've called it all year..https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/05/al-riveron-on-last-play-in-new-orleans-none-of-the-contact-rises-to-the-level-of-a-foul/

Edited by snogger

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Posted (edited)

The Saints had a top 5 scoring offense and a top 5 rush defense and couldn't score against a team missing two of its top corners or stop the "one dimensional rushing team".

And they're worried about a push off in overtime?

Edited by Andy Dufresne
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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

great now we get to listen to this for the next 8 months minimum. Saints fans are some of the biggest complainers

I would hope not, the play vs the rams was a blatant, terrible no-call....this Rudolph play today is your standard borderline nfl play of opi/dpi. 

They should not be able to review PI anymore....just dumb. 

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2 hours ago, Brony said:

Lot of contact both ways between Rudolph and the DB on that TD. DB never looked back either. I think no call was the correct call for that situation. 

DB doesn't have to look back, this isn't College.

Rudolph pushed off bigtime, clear as day.

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OPI on the play and should have been called. The part where you can not only see the contact (hand on him) but also the player snapping back from the contact makes it blatant to me. Sad fact of the matter is that Riveron and others won't call it even though they should have. Some one remind me, penalty for OPI is 10 yards and replay the down? Outcome might be the same in that instance but instead the refs swallowed their whistles on the call.

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10 minutes ago, Mr.Pack said:

DB doesn't have to look back, this isn't College.

Rudolph pushed off bigtime, clear as day.

The cb definitely grabbed Rudolph before he pushed off.. Easily could have called both for PI and replayed the down..

But, as I posted above, they haven't over turned the non-call on the field all year so at least they are consistent on making bad no calls ;)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, GROOT said:

https://youtu.be/3qURByQxR8w?t=63

 

look at this angle. I see a db holding on and Rudolph pushing him off. Shaq-like .

Thanks, @GROOT, good vid.

I see:

1) contact that the DB initiates at the goal line

2) both PJ Williams and Rudolph continuing to engage in contact

3) Rudolph pushing off about 4 yards deep that creates the separation needed to catch the ball

4) the DB reacting to that push off by trying to grasp onto Rudolph's forearm with his right hand.

As to 1), the kind of contact I see is the same kind of contact totally allowed within the 5-yard bump zone from LOS. I don't know how the rule works when that 5-yard contact zone extends into the end zone.

There is a single frame at the 1:17 mark where it looks as if the two players are about 2 yards into the EZ (1 yard past the 5 yard bump zone) where the only visible contact is Rudolph's right hand on Williams's chest, initiating the push-off.

By the spirit of the 5 yard rule, if Williams had any contact with Rudolph it would technically be an illegal contact penalty. If, 2 yards into the EZ, Rudolph initiated his push and Williams wasn't touching him anywhere, then that should be a push-off and OPI.

Bottom line to me is that the defensive contact didn't impede, alter, or otherwise hamper the receiver's route, while the receiver's push-off did impede the defender and gained advantage through it. For me, that's OPI.

I get why it will ultimately go down in history as an acceptable no-call even though I think the evidence under the replay system the NFL adopted this season to address instances exactly like this bears evidence of OPI. That said, I'm not up in arms about it. It is what it is.

FWIW it's interesting to note that when the play happened, Williams didn't react as if he felt he was unfairly pushed. He simply looked dejected for not making the play and giving up the score. 

In a game like this, in a situation like this, I'd definitely prefer no controversy, and for the decision process and mechanisms the NFL puts in place to enable those decisions work. Maybe that's hoping for too much.

Edited by Stompin' Tom Connors
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5 hours ago, Man In The Box said:

49ers continue to get no respect. They beat the Saints and GB already. 

The Saints they survived.  The Packers they beat like a red-headed stepchild.

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What a game. now to hoping the vikes can play like that in back to back weeks.  
 

Could care less about a non call on the saints or the other multiple non calls during the game.  Sean Payton has earned any bad karma that comes his way.  

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14 minutes ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

FWIW it's interesting to note that when the play happened, Williams didn't react as if he felt he was unfairly pushed. He simply looked dejected for not making the play and giving up the score. 

Huh.  When I watched it real-time, it looked like Williams was immediately calling for a flag for a push off.

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This is all the NFL’s fault because what they were trying to accomplish with the rule change was to allow for reviews of egregious errors in officiating. But they didn’t want to call it that so they tacked it onto the penalty that caused the problem. 

 It’s obviously debatable if this call should have been OPI. Even the person who is most strongly convinced that it’s OPI would at least be able to understand why someone would feel like it’s not. 

Compare this play to last year’s missed DPI call which was not in any way debatable. They only want to overturn plays like that. And that should be the goal and frankly they should be able to apply that to any call on the field, as long as that’s truly the bar (“egregious”) they have to reach. 

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16 minutes ago, Stompin' Tom Connors said:

 

 

Bottom line to me is that the defensive contact didn't impede, alter, or otherwise hamper the receiver's route, while the receiver's push-off did impede the defender and gained advantage through it. For me, that's OPI.

 

Damn Rudolph for being stronger!

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7 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Huh.  When I watched it real-time, it looked like Williams was immediately calling for a flag for a push off.

You're not wrong -- Williams made a push-off gesture a few beats after the catch. It was definitely not whole-hearted or with the energy of a man who truly felt he was wronged.

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1 minute ago, GROOT said:

Damn Rudolph for being stronger!

Entirely orthogonal.

The very definition of pass interference in the NFL rulebook involves the words "significantly hinders an eligible player’s opportunity" to either catch the ball or defend the pass.

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As a Vikes fan I’ll admit it’s borderline. 
 

No ref calls that in that situation. No one. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Capella said:

No ####, Michael Thomas makes a living "pushing off" but you won't hear Saint's fans ##### about it, nor should you.

 

 

P.S.  This not to take anything away from Thomas, he is by far the best receiver in the NFL.  But all WRs/DBs push and grab.  IF you really look at that last play the DB was all over Rudolph and never looked back.  You could just as easily have argued DPI.  I wouldn't, but you could.

 

Edited by Hov34
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14 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

great now we get to listen to this for the next 8 months minimum. Saints fans are some of the biggest complainers

Meh no particular fan base is worse than any other.  All fans complain if their team gets hosed and it doesn't get much worse than what happened to the Saints last year.  That was blatant interference and to get screwed out of a Super Bowl...any fan base would be screaming.

Yesterday it was a push off no doubt and typically when a receiver extends an arm they call it on the offense.  I'm fine with yesterday's no call as the NO DB was grabbing Rudolph as well.

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14 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

great now we get to listen to this for the next 8 months minimum. Saints fans are some of the biggest complainers

Have you seen the Vikings fans that are in every packer game thread?

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30 minutes ago, Pipes said:

Meh no particular fan base is worse than any other.  All fans complain if their team gets hosed and it doesn't get much worse than what happened to the Saints last year.  That was blatant interference and to get screwed out of a Super Bowl...any fan base would be screaming.

Yesterday it was a push off no doubt and typically when a receiver extends an arm they call it on the offense.  I'm fine with yesterday's no call as the NO DB was grabbing Rudolph as well.

Agreed...but bitter after watching the Badgers get called for OPI (on the guy not even targeted in the pass) for doing basically the same thing near the end of the Rose Bowl.

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12 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

They played well?

It's couldn't care less btw

The Vikings played very well, especially defensively. The offense made enough plays to win. Although the Saints defense continued its streak of keeping RBs under 100 yards rushing, Cook was great, with 130 yards combined and two TDs.  They went into NO and held a team that has averaged 36+ points the last two months to 20 points. They won the turnover battle against a team that had a league best 8 turnovers the entire season. Despite the one glaringly bad play, Rhodes played excellent football.

The defensive game plan was masterful. Sendejo played nickle for the first time in his career and played it very well. They ran essentially 4 DEs moving both Griffen and Hunter to the inside resulting in a combined 3 sacks for the two. 

 

Not sure what else a 7-8 point underdog has to do to make you think they played well?

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18 hours ago, culdeus said:

Missed a 30ish yard fg.

I dont recall the exact distance, but it was over 40.

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6 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Saints snapped the ball from around the Minnesota 35. The broadcast said it was a 43-yard attempt.

That would make it fifty-three. I think the Saints were closer than that. Like, that Lutz missed inside 40, which is a gimme for him at home.   

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14 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

great now we get to listen to this for the next 8 months minimum. Saints fans are some of the biggest complainers

I don't think this one will generate the kind of noise that the one against the Rams did (and come on, if you can't cut some fans some slack for that non-call, you have a heart of stone).

As a Saints fan, I don't feel cheated in this game at all, except by the poor play of the Saints.  They had several  opportunities to light things up and farted them away.  Brees played horribly.  Kamara had no idea what he was even doing on the field.  If the situation called for Kamara to stay in bounds and fight for more yards, he gingerly stepped out.  If the clock was running and time was precious, he stayed in bounds.  Just a ton of things like that.  The things Brees did wrong are things he's done wrong his whole career.  He takes way more sacks than he should in the era of "heave the sucker out of bounds".  He doesn't protect the ball.  His fumble was costly but that interception was brutal.  Completely forced.  Saints collectively had some really boneheaded penalties at crucial times.

It looked to me like the Saints took the Vikings lightly, and had no answers in the first half for the defensive scheme or the running attack of the Vikings.  MIN looked confident.  For some reason they always have a stiffy for the Saints.  This was their Superbowl.  [SourGrapes]I have no doubts they come back to being the same old Vikings next week in SF.[/SourGrapes]

Brees has clearly lost his fastball, and the Saints better look very closely at this deep QB draft for a potential successor.  Drew's still better than Dilfer or Gannon ever were, so with the right team around him he could be a good "game manager" type.  But the days of him carrying the team in the playoffs are over.  I can't see Brees retiring with that as his last game, it would haunt him to his grave.  Is Teddy willing to hold the clipboard one more year?  Probably not...but definitely not if there's starter money out there (Miami?). 

The Saints were without two DL (Rankins / Davenport) so I'm not as concerned about their inability to stop Cook.  Run D is fine when everyone is healthy.  The DBs have been a nightmare since 67, but Jenkins was a nice add and I hope he sticks.  Lattimore is really, really good but gets this attitude that he needs to be everywhere and do everything on defense.  I hope I'm wrong but I'm getting a Jalen Ramsey vibe.

The pieces are all there on offense (Brees or no Brees), although they have to figure out what the hell is going on with Kamara.  He is simply a shell of the dynamic player he was last season and looked completely lost out there on Sunday.

On to the off-season.  Get a few fast pieces on D, get a backup OL that can play tackle and guard, and a future QB if they're not all gone by the Saints pick.

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14 hours ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

They should not be able to review PI anymore....just dumb. 

I've got a feeling this rule dies a quiet death this offseason.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, rockaction said:
31 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Saints snapped the ball from around the Minnesota 35. The broadcast said it was a 43-yard attempt.

That would make it fifty-three. I think the Saints were closer than that. Like, that Lutz missed inside 40, which is a gimme for him at home.  

[WarnerWolf]

"Let's go to the video tape!"

[/WarnerWolf]

 

Not the 35-yard-line ... the 25-yard line. I flubbed that.

Edited by Doug B

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4 minutes ago, Doug B said:

[WarnerWolf]

"Let's go to the video tape!"

[/WarnerWolf]

 

Not the 35-yard-line ... the 25-yard line. I flubbed that.

Ah, then that's forty-three. As for Lutz, I guess you're going to miss a high-pressure kick at some point.  He's been a very reliable fantasy and football player.

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19 minutes ago, Statorama said:

I've got a feeling this rule dies a quiet death this offseason.

You know what? In the end, I didn't hate it as much as I thought I would.

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Congrats to the Vikings fans!  The Vikings were the better team (players and coaches).  Saints need a #2 WR so bad.  Double teamed MT13 and Drew had to hold the ball leading to heavy pressure.  Sanders was there for the taking but the 49ers were more aggressive and the Saints paid for it IMO.  

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17 hours ago, saintfool said:

OPI on the play and should have been called. The part where you can not only see the contact (hand on him) but also the player snapping back from the contact makes it blatant to me. Sad fact of the matter is that Riveron and others won't call it even though they should have. Some one remind me, penalty for OPI is 10 yards and replay the down? Outcome might be the same in that instance but instead the refs swallowed their whistles on the call.

This is the same thing that happens on 99% of all passes in the NFL.  Both guys were grabbing/pushing/jostling.  It happens on every pass play.  Sure, by letter of the law in the rule book it is OPI (and DPI initially) however this type of jostling is very rarely called in the NFL.   It is not even close to the no call in last year's playoffs and shouldn't even be talked about in the same breath. 

 

Also, this game in particular was very loosely officiated with these type of plays.  The officials let the players play for the entire game with very similar actions not being called throughout.  This was called similarly to how the rest of the game was called. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Statorama said:

As a Saints fan, I don't feel cheated in this game at all, except by the poor play of the Saints.  They had several  opportunities to light things up and farted them away.  Brees played horribly.  Kamara had no idea what he was even doing on the field.  If the situation called for Kamara to stay in bounds and fight for more yards, he gingerly stepped out.  If the clock was running and time was precious, he stayed in bounds.  Just a ton of things like that.  The things Brees did wrong are things he's done wrong his whole career.  He takes way more sacks than he should in the era of "heave the sucker out of bounds".  He doesn't protect the ball.  His fumble was costly but that interception was brutal.  Completely forced.  Saints collectively had some really boneheaded penalties at crucial times.

It looked to me like the Saints took the Vikings lightly, and had no answers in the first half for the defensive scheme or the running attack of the Vikings.  MIN looked confident. 

Also a Saints fan here, and this is well-said - exactly how I feel the day after.   Vikings just came into their house and beat em.  Two years ago in Minnesota I couldn't believe that NO shot themselves in the foot with the whiffed tackle on Diggs. Absolutely gave that game away.  Last year the obvious blatant no-call PI from the Rams, and I spent the entire offseason angry.  This year they just got beat.  LIke @Statorama said, looks like they took the Vikings lightly, and credit to Minnesota for playing some great defense, holding NO to only 20 points.  They did exactly what no one gave them a chance to do, strap up and go on the road and punch the favorite in the mouth.  Can't be mad about a no-call on Rudolph in OT, because no ref is going to call that, no ref is going to insert a call on it during scoring review, and it never should have come down to OT if the Saints had showed up.  

Guess I'll be rooting for Baltimore now, in the hopes that Ingram can get a ring.  Always liked him, felt the Saints misused him, and would be happy to see him win one. 

Edited by wlwiles
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On 1/5/2020 at 1:10 PM, The General said:

Hey TV exec - Shows about fireman and cops only work when they take place in Chicago

All they need now is two more called Chicago Vice and Chicago CSI.

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On 1/5/2020 at 8:59 PM, Dr. Dan said:

That hasnt been called all year and certainly not overturned in replay.

 

Saw more offensive PI calls than ever this year, including calls in plays similar to this one... 

Overturned means nothing...  there is an apparent impetus to NOT overturn PI as called on the field.   This play wouldn't have been overturned (and ruled a TD) had they thrown a flag on the play.

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On 1/5/2020 at 7:56 PM, snogger said:
On 1/5/2020 at 7:45 PM, DropKick said:

But is was clearly pass interference.  The separation created with the push off allowed him to catch the ball.  In fact, the second year in a row for blown PI and the third in heartbreaking fashion.  I don't blame them for complaining.

They both were handsy there and yes, he did extend the arm for separation.. Issue is, they have not called that all season in replay on more obvious ones then that one so it would have been a complete shock had they done so in the playoffs. :mellow:

ETA.. Al Riveron stating what I posted.. Consistent with how they've called it all year..https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/05/al-riveron-on-last-play-in-new-orleans-none-of-the-contact-rises-to-the-level-of-a-foul/

Edited yesterday at 08:16 PM by snogger

they called it on jake kumerow for the pack two weeks ago take that to the bank brohan

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On 1/5/2020 at 9:56 PM, mr roboto said:

As a Vikes fan I’ll admit it’s borderline. 
 

No ref calls that in that situation. No one. 

Beg to differ, if that was a Packer DB, it's called every time

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On 1/5/2020 at 7:27 PM, Dr. Dan said:

great now we get to listen to this for the next 8 months minimum. Saints fans are some of the biggest complainers

GB, you can't blame them for complaining about last years call

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The lack of a call was somewhat questionable, but the fact is that the Saints lack of offense doomed them in this game. The routes the receivers ran were either extremely short or unsuccessful deep. There should have been more mid-range routes, particularly for Thomas and also for Cook. Time after time, they completed the passes but gained only 5 yards or less. The other thing that happened rather often was Brees had less mobility in the pocket. He is usually adept at escaping and buying time even when pressured, but I did not see that happen much at all. Just a disappointing day for the offense in general.

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On 1/5/2020 at 2:20 PM, Statorama said:

The absolute worst part is that the Vikes will go to SF and lose by 17

Whoa

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Everyone over on Saintsreport patting each other’s backs right now. Telling each other “Last week was the Vikings’ Super Bowl! See?”

Yet today... looks like 49ers over the Vikings was the Saints fans’ Super Bowl. A lot of emotional investment in a Vikings loss.

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15 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Everyone over on Saintsreport patting each other’s backs right now. Telling each other “Last week was the Vikings’ Super Bowl! See?”

Yet today... looks like 49ers over the Vikings was the Saints fans’ Super Bowl. A lot of emotional investment in a Vikings loss.

Between that site and Black and Gold, I've read nothing but nonsense the past week.  Either they weren't fans before Brees and Payton or they have a short memory of the way things used to be.

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