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Ministry of Pain

Should Jadeveon Clowney be suspended vs Green Bay? Entire Playoffs?

Should Clowney face suspension this season in the playoffs?  

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I don't believe the slide rule for quarterbacks applies in this case, but I would be in favor of that rule going away. I think QBs are milking it too often waiting until the very last moment to slide and putting defensive players in unfair situations. I remember Flacco doing this a few years ago and getting absolutely destroyed. IMO it was largely his own fault. 

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15 hours ago, Cobbler1 said:

I think it’s pretty clear that I never blamed Wentz for anything Clowney did. The fault in Wentz lies in that when he looked upfield after seeing the screen wasn’t there, there was a defender staring right at him. He was 9 yards behind the LOS of scrimmage and clear of the pocket, 5 minutes into the game. He 100% should have thrown that ball 5 rows deep and started over on 2nd and 10. Once he chose to engage the defender he put himself at risk of being hit hard by one of the 250+ lb defenders who are being paid to hit him hard. So no, it’s not bad luck. It was a poor decision that hopefully Wentz will learn from.

The hit itself is a different story. My thoughts are that it clearly wasn’t late. And that Wentz had clearly forfeited his protection as a qb. That said Clowney is responsible for where his helmet goes. I could have seen an unnecessary roughness penalty. And sure I guess a fine. But a suspension? No way.

This nails it IMO. Wentz has to make better decisions, and Clowney should have been a penalty. Nothing more though because Wentz was a runner at that point and if it had happened to the WR on an end around or the RB then nobody would be calling for him to go to prison. Wentz is a competitor, so he will get better at those decisions. If not, you have to worry about his longevity in this league.

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8 hours ago, G-King said:

This nails it IMO. Wentz has to make better decisions, and Clowney should have been a penalty. Nothing more though because Wentz was a runner at that point and if it had happened to the WR on an end around or the RB then nobody would be calling for him to go to prison. Wentz is a competitor, so he will get better at those decisions. If not, you have to worry about his longevity in this league.

Wilson learned the lesson.  RG3 and Luck did not.

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28 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Wilson learned the lesson.  RG3 and Luck did not.

Are you forgetting that he was hit while he was already down on the ground, from behind, helmet first?  I know... he was "putting a hit" on the guy & "that's football".  On the other hand, this is the very definition of "unnecessary roughness", is it not?  Do we enjoy violence to such a degree that we allow, even encourage, such tactics?  

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14 hours ago, daveR said:

Are you forgetting that he was hit while he was already down on the ground, from behind, helmet first?  I know... he was "putting a hit" on the guy & "that's football".  On the other hand, this is the very definition of "unnecessary roughness", is it not?  Do we enjoy violence to such a degree that we allow, even encourage, such tactics?  

I was not then speaking only to this one play.  You have read far more into it than I intended.  Perhaps my writing was incautious and invited that.  If so my mistake.  As for your question on violence, clearly yes we do love it, in football, in boxing, in hockey, in MMA, in our movies and T.V., books and art, and in society as a whole.  We also love condemning it, but we do love it.  What we object to is when it victimizes us directly.

 

Now there are some of a different bent. those who take the high road.  Moral leaders.  They have a difficult task, reigning in our ore or less inherent savagery, trying to cultivate our better angels. 

As for me, my better angel is a rapscallion who still has vices.

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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16 hours ago, efactor said:

When SF played the Ravens, SF was flagged for a late hit on Jackson as he going out of bounds.  Officials got together and they ended up picking up the flag because Jackson was still in bounds, but Harbaugh was going nuts.  You can't have a QB that plays like a RB and expect defenses to treat him like Brady or Brees.

But it is what it is, so if you are going to protect the QB, it has to be consistent.  

I had thought it was this kind of stuff was what killed the running-QB renaissance of 2012. There was a question of whether it was kosher for defenders to hit a running QB who had just pitched the ball to a trailing RB. The league (surprisingly in retrospect) made it legal for defenders to lay out QBs running option plays even if they had already pitched the ball.

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51 minutes ago, daveR said:

Are you forgetting that he was hit while he was already down on the ground, from behind, helmet first?  I know... he was "putting a hit" on the guy & "that's football".  On the other hand, this is the very definition of "unnecessary roughness", is it not?  Do we enjoy violence to such a degree that we allow, even encourage, such tactics?  

Wentz wasn't down, Clowney was in mid air and had no choice but to contact Wentz, and the whistle hadn't blown yet. But other than that . . .

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52 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Wentz wasn't down, Clowney was in mid air and had no choice but to contact Wentz, and the whistle hadn't blown yet. But other than that . . .

He was not “mid air”.  He was about 6 inches from hitting the ground when Clowney cheap shotted him.  Clowney could have pulled up or just pushed him to the ground. Instead he hit him with his helmet. 
 

 

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I've clearly missed the news alert.   How many games was Clowney suspended for the obvious cheap shot that he could have avoided if he simply chose to do so?

Edited by Dinkle Heimer

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16 minutes ago, Dinkle Heimer said:

I've clearly missed the news alert.   How many games was Clowney suspended for the obvious cheap shot that he could have avoided if he simply chose to do so?

Of course he won't get suspended, especially after the crew that missed the call comes out and immediately defends the call.  The NFL would have to admit the officiating crew was incompetent twice on one play.

Blatant cheap shot that he got away with.  It happens.

 

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It was already unfortunate that only a small portion of rabid NFL fans on this board can see the truth.  But now, we have the NFL high offices as part of the conspiracy?  Oh my.  It's like NFL's version of pizzagate, birth certificates, and QAnon all wrapped into one massive coverup.   Good thing we have our own Alex Jones. 

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14 minutes ago, Dinkle Heimer said:

It was already unfortunate that only a small portion of rabid NFL fans on this board can see the truth.  But now, we have the NFL high offices as part of the conspiracy?  

The NFL covering for inept officiating is hardly a "conspiracy".  Just smart business on their part since officiating has been under a lot of criticism this year.  They do it all the time.

I think it's unfortunate that homers can't call it for what it is, but that's to be expected as well.  

 

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On 1/6/2020 at 2:06 PM, Ministry of Pain said:

I felt robbed as an NFL fan yesterday in the last Wildcard game after so much fun watching all the other ones. I have heard a lot of talking heads on the radio and sports shows saying it was a dirty hit I've watched a few times and the bottom line is Clowney was leading with the crown of his helmet.  I'm not going to go as far as to say Clowney was trying to knock him out of the game but he was leading with the crown from behind and that's a major foul now in the NFL and has been for a few years now so I have to go by the current NFL rules which change depending on the wind direction. I could go on and on about how uncomfortable it is watching the end of most NFL games when they are close but I want to stay on topic here. 

Clowney led with the crown of his helmet, anyone who can watch that video and not agree with that premise might want to make an eye appointment with their doctor. I'm saying that because I am not trying to have a debate whether it was clean or dirty, the facts are the facts and just because the referee didn't call it doesn't mean it didn't occur, video evidence overwhelmingly backs those who say he led with the crown.

Doesn't Goodell have an obligation to suspend Clowney? He knocked out one of the 32 most important players in the NFL and it hurts the brand or shield which is Goodell's only concern most of the time. Vote your conscience. 

Yes and this isn't me being biased this is more about the NFL not being consistent on its rules. The Eagles had a game in ATL where Wentz dove for the goal line and converted a 2 but the NFL ruled him down for diving and "giving himself up" yet on the play he gets hurt he's just a runner? Also Goodell was at the game the NFL independent DRs also missed the head to head contact. Big V the RT is also standing in a good view with a ref and puts up his hands like did you see that where's the flag? I also met Jerimiah Trotter a few weeks ago and have talked to a few other players former and current in my area. A few former ones have said the NFL doesn't care about calling these rules on non important players but the refs better dam well have a flag thrown when Brady. Rodgers, Mahomes etc get hit. You also have many players calling the rules for safety absolute bull####. It's just CYA's to cover for the lawsuits and to add more offense for the causal fan, the degenerate gamblers and and fantasy players to get more points. If the NFL really cares about player safety they'd have implemented the college targeting rule. You get flagged, it's viewed and if it's upheld as targeting or reviewed to it the defending player is ejected from the game. I'd also like to see suspensions implemented. This is the 2nd straight year Clowney has tried to take out an Eagles QB. He didn't do himself any favors mocking the fans after the game with his comments either. 

I'm not as made about my teams QB getting cheap shot as I am the overall inconsistency on these "safety Rules" not being called. My cousin from Philly lives in Sea and he also said some SEA fans are turned off by CLowney's dirty play and want him gone. I think Clowny should at the very least be fine but a suspension sends message to the rest of the league that #### like that isn't tolerated 

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On 1/6/2020 at 2:21 PM, Ministry of Pain said:

What did I write that isn't true? Most talking heads today think Clowney got away with a dirty hit but Goodell has suspended guys that didn't even get flagged so this not unprecedented. And I'm merely saying that it's not really up for debate what he did. I'm not going after any Seattle fans who have been fairly quiet about it, I'm not trying to get inside Clowney's head, I'm simply saying that it's pretty black and white. Since that's the case, Goodell needs to step in and do something immediately. 

Also there is a signature campaign actively happening in Philly right now, I expect there to be something out of the NFL offices by tomorrow. Or I guess they could just say nothing and hide behind their desks.  

Mike Periera the former NFL Ref VP even called it dirty. 

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On 1/6/2020 at 2:36 PM, Warhogs said:

I will add that as the topic is written and I am commissioner the last thing I want to do is suspend star players from playoff games. A fine is probably in order. I would maybe suspend him a game if it was the regular season. I would not suspend him from a playoff game.

Shouldn't matter if he's a star or not. If a suspension is warranted it should be given. No preferential treatment given. 

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1 hour ago, efactor said:

The NFL would have to admit the officiating crew was incompetent

 

 

Weird.  The NFL has suspended players for multiple games before when no foul was called on the field.  I guess the NFL didn't care about admitting mistakes then, but they can't force themselves to in this particular blatant cheap shot instance. 

 

This makes Clowney-Gate even more special.  It's like extra cheese on your comet pizza man.  The truth is out there yo. 

Edited by Dinkle Heimer

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3 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

  As for your question on violence, clearly yes we do love it, in football, in boxing, in hockey, in MMA, in our movies and T.V., books and art, and in society as a whole.  We also love condemn it, but we do love it.  What we object to is when it victimizes us directly.

 

 

If it was in our backyard everyday, I would think our outlook would be different. Some in other parts of the world live it everyday and would embrace a game where love is the ultimate goal. Winning then would mean something truly different I'm sure. 

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It didn't look dirty to me. I think it's hard for people to realize how fast the play happens and how you're expecting an adjustment mid-air by he or Wentz.

The other thing is, I though McCown played well, far better than I expected. He almost got them there. I've seen a ton of Eagles fans pretending they don't have street free agents at WR and "shouldn't" have made it to that game but for exceptional coaching and smart QB play.  I know they're a spirited fan base, but this anger isn't warranted. Once they cool down, in March maybe, they're going to think as I and be like "wow we got there with those receivers." Maybe the draft and some WR prospect will get them excited like "we got there with those WRs, imagine with this gem added in the draft?" Just give it time. A playoff loss stings. It's not because of McCown's play or the hit by Clowney.

And as masterful as their end of game calls were last year, I thought the play calls were real questionable when McCown had to score. 

As far as suspension, I have always been a proponent that the one that concussed the other should miss as much time. (Also deliberately taking out a knee- if the world sees it on tv...it happened)  I think this is how they change the game not by adding a zillion different interpretations that make the QB or defenseless WR seem untouchable. Add that rule and whatever has to be coached or adjusted will happen. That one game where Juju got hurt and Rudolph got hit. We all talked of Rudolph and Myles, but there were so many cheap shot injuries in that game. Oh I could think of a few games this year that were just filthy dirty. Can you imagine if several players had to sit the next week or two? 

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I am very against results based discipline.  Just because a guy gets hurt does not mean it's a dirty play, and conversely there are many dirty plays which result in no injuries.

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2 hours ago, efactor said:

He was not “mid air”.  He was about 6 inches from hitting the ground when Clowney cheap shotted him.  Clowney could have pulled up or just pushed him to the ground. Instead he hit him with his helmet. 
 

 

Clowney didn't have to dip his head to ensure head-to-head contact either.   

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11 hours ago, daveR said:

Are you forgetting that he was hit while he was already down on the ground, from behind, helmet first?  I know... he was "putting a hit" on the guy & "that's football".  On the other hand, this is the very definition of "unnecessary roughness", is it not?  Do we enjoy violence to such a degree that we allow, even encourage, such tactics?  

Not to mention, the "tackle" initiated by Clowney was directly toward the ground (where Wentz was, unless he miraculously were to sprout wings and head for the end zone).

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12 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Wentz wasn't down, Clowney was in mid air and had no choice but to contact Wentz, and the whistle hadn't blown yet. But other than that . . .

Both Wentz's knees were on the ground before Clowney drilled him helmet-to-helmet.  The play was over.  There was nothing to be gained by Clowney except hurting the player.

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The NFL fines for everything and didn’t for this. Tells us everything we need to know.

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3 hours ago, daveR said:

Both Wentz's knees were on the ground before Clowney drilled him helmet-to-helmet.  The play was over.  There was nothing to be gained by Clowney except hurting the player.

The beauty of this is, we have the video evidence -- we know this isn't true. He doesn't "drill him" helmet to helmet, his shoulder hits first, and he starts his tackle while Wentz is still lunging. As the poster said above, NFL throws fines at everything now and with how high profile this hit was, if there was anything even slightly off about the hit it would have been fined. It wasn't, enough said, case closed.

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On 1/9/2020 at 5:32 PM, Hooper31 said:

I don't believe the slide rule for quarterbacks applies in this case, but I would be in favor of that rule going away. I think QBs are milking it too often waiting until the very last moment to slide and putting defensive players in unfair situations. I remember Flacco doing this a few years ago and getting absolutely destroyed. IMO it was largely his own fault. 

Trust me on this: as someone who watched almost every game Flacco played with Baltimore, his slides were not trying to bait guys into penalties. He was just horrible at it. 

Ever see the Lord Of The Rings movies?

SPOILER ALERT!

You know the part when the Dark Tower collapses after the Ring is destroyed? That's Flacco trying to slide.

What he WAS good at, for whatever reason, was throwing the ball in such a way to draw an abundance of DPI calls.

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6 hours ago, SEA425 said:

The beauty of this is, we have the video evidence -- we know this isn't true. He doesn't "drill him" helmet to helmet, his shoulder hits first, and he starts his tackle while Wentz is still lunging. As the poster said above, NFL throws fines at everything now and with how high profile this hit was, if there was anything even slightly off about the hit it would have been fined. It wasn't, enough said, case closed.

You need to review your "video evidence".  Maybe some still shots (pics) would help.  Both knees were on the ground prior to Clowney's hit. "Lunging" at that point is irrelevant. 

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24 minutes ago, daveR said:

You need to review your "video evidence".  Maybe some still shots (pics) would help.  Both knees were on the ground prior to Clowney's hit. "Lunging" at that point is irrelevant. 

The bolded is the problem. The game isn't played frame-by-frame or in slo-mo

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1 hour ago, daveR said:

You need to review your "video evidence".  Maybe some still shots (pics) would help.  Both knees were on the ground prior to Clowney's hit. "Lunging" at that point is irrelevant. 

Lmao still shots

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17 minutes ago, jasvic said:

So we're clear.

This is a penalty and a fine.

This is perfectly legal.

All in the name of player safety?

You are aware that it is a penalty to make a block running toward and facing your own goal line, right? That's in the rule book.
And any play shown in super slow motion and zoomed in to fill the entire scream will exaggerate the perception of the outcome.

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3 hours ago, daveR said:

You need to review your "video evidence".  Maybe some still shots (pics) would help.  Both knees were on the ground prior to Clowney's hit. "Lunging" at that point is irrelevant. 

Both players started diving at the same time. Wentz wasn't down yet.

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25 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

You are aware that it is a penalty to make a block running toward and facing your own goal line, right? That's in the rule book.
And any play shown in super slow motion and zoomed in to fill the entire scream will exaggerate the perception of the outcome.

No it isn’t.

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On 1/6/2020 at 2:06 PM, Ministry of Pain said:

Clowney led with the crown of his helmet, anyone who can watch that video and not agree with that premise might want to make an eye appointment with their doctor. I'm saying that because I am not trying to have a debate whether it was clean or dirty, the facts are the facts and just because the referee didn't call it doesn't mean it didn't occur, video evidence overwhelmingly backs those who say he led with the crown.

 

Nothing has changed from the OP I posted.  Won't be the first time the NFL doesn't do the right thing. They covered up Bengals-Gate earlier so this is nothing new. 

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6 hours ago, daveR said:

You need to review your "video evidence".  Maybe some still shots (pics) would help.  Both knees were on the ground prior to Clowney's hit. "Lunging" at that point is irrelevant. 

Nope

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1 hour ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Nothing has changed from the OP I posted.  Won't be the first time the NFL doesn't do the right thing. They covered up Bengals-Gate earlier so this is nothing new. 

If the hit don't fit you must acquit. -Roger Goodell

Case Closed. 

Get well, Carson. See you next season.

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4 minutes ago, The General said:

If the hit don't fit you must acquit. -Roger Goodell

Case Closed. 

Get well, Carson. See you next season.

We were never debating if it was a dirty hit or not, NFL actually suspending him was not a measuring stick either, it was clear on the replay. This was more about if you would suspend Clowney and apparently a lot of folks would. 50% think he shouldn't be suspended and another 50% think he should...or at least want bananas in their pancakes. 

People want it both ways and I have been super relaxed on laying into Wentz but I would encourage my QBs not to hold their heads on the sidelines if it can at all be helped because once you do that you're begging for concussion protocol. 

I don't want to go down this path too far but either it was a colossal hit and a cheap shot driving his head into the ground or it was a love tap but it can't be both. Either Wentz wasn't as hurt as he appeared to be or he Clowney got away with murder in a playoff game. Now, since there was a concussion and he was taken out of the game, IMHO that alone should ahve been an auto-suspension for the next playoff game, especially to a QB which are protected  like endangered species in the NFL. 

But again there is no debate there was a cheap shot involved and it was done in a way to not attract too much attention, many didn't know until the replay but that didn't make it any less of a dirty hit. 

Enough media and ex-officials have said it was a dirty hit, I was more curious what the outcry would be if we could suspend Clowney and many do feel a suspension is warranted. 

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3 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

We were never debating if it was a dirty hit or not, NFL actually suspending him was not a measuring stick either, it was clear on the replay. This was more about if you would suspend Clowney and apparently a lot of folks would. 50% think he shouldn't be suspended and another 50% think he should...or at least want bananas in their pancakes. 

People want it both ways and I have been super relaxed on laying into Wentz but I would encourage my QBs not to hold their heads on the sidelines if it can at all be helped because once you do that you're begging for concussion protocol. 

I don't want to go down this path too far but either it was a colossal hit and a cheap shot driving his head into the ground or it was a love tap but it can't be both. Either Wentz wasn't as hurt as he appeared to be or he Clowney got away with murder in a playoff game. Now, since there was a concussion and he was taken out of the game, IMHO that alone should ahve been an auto-suspension for the next playoff game, especially to a QB which are protected  like endangered species in the NFL. 

But again there is no debate there was a cheap shot involved and it was done in a way to not attract too much attention, many didn't know until the replay but that didn't make it any less of a dirty hit. 

Enough media and ex-officials have said it was a dirty hit, I was more curious what the outcry would be if we could suspend Clowney and many do feel a suspension is warranted. 

It can be called what NFL said: A football play.

Only Clowny knows if it was dirty. Rest is conjecture, sports talk radio, and hot takes.

 

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28 minutes ago, The General said:

If the hit don't fit you must acquit. -Roger Goodell

Case Closed. 

Get well, Carson. See you next season.

This.  The ham-handed embellishments in this thread were humorous; now they are verified.

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4 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

You are aware that it is a penalty to make a block running toward and facing your own goal line, right? That's in the rule book.
And any play shown in super slow motion and zoomed in to fill the entire scream will exaggerate the perception of the outcome.

Well aware, but if you think that was worthy of a fine and a head shot that took a QB out of a game wasn't, not sure what else there is to say.

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2 hours ago, Dinkle Heimer said:

This.  The ham-handed embellishments in this thread were humorous; now they are verified.

Yep, total disconnect from reality, literally watching a video of the hit and ignoring what actually happened on the play. Amazes me how wrong people can be. 

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So, I understand that the NFL is a violent game.  Putting a hit on somebody is part of it.  This is one of those instances.  It was violent and unnecessary, but "that's football". I get it.  Some fans get into it & some don't.  

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15 hours ago, SEA425 said:

https://streamable.com/fzb9z

Now, if Clowney's hit looked like this, people might have a point. Way worse hit, where is the outrage? Oh Lamar didn't get hurt, so no one is going to say anything. 

Seriously, not a peep. 

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15 hours ago, SEA425 said:

https://streamable.com/fzb9z

Now, if Clowney's hit looked like this, people might have a point. Way worse hit, where is the outrage? Oh Lamar didn't get hurt, so no one is going to say anything. 

Didn't watch the game. Should have also been 15 at least. We'll see if he gets fined. 

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8 minutes ago, Insein said:

Didn't watch the game. Should have also been 15 at least. We'll see if he gets fined. 

Ejection, suspension, disgusting, etc etc. 

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