culdeus
Footballguy
Nah, some hackers basically engineered motion cameras to watch signs and they would enter the play results and over time it would indicate what the signs were. I'll have to dig these out, youtube is blocked at work.
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How Far Is Too Far? Astros Cheating Scandal Ends In Firings, Disarray, Disgust (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter rockaction
- Start date
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Best hit I ever had in high school was from a stolen sign.
Never played in college though.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yes, but stealing sings, writ large, has been part of the verboten unwritten rules, if I'm not mistaken.
The General
Footballguy
But they wrote this one down. Kind of like Roids they were fine with it, then they weren’t. It’s good to be the ones who weren’t caught - Mike Piazza, Bagwell, etc.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
The Duff Man
Footballguy
When are they connecting the Pats to this?
`I got the idea from Bill!`
`I got the idea from Bill!`
The General
Footballguy
I’d say also be a little more subtle. Setting up a monitor in the hallway leading to the dugout? Come on man
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Not nearly far enough based on what happened to the Braves.
And the owner should have gotten a year ban if the GM did
And the owner should have gotten a year ban if the GM did
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
There was an edict against this in 2017 after the Red Sox apple watch incident and it continued, but it pertained specifically to the in game acquisition and application of the technology. So its very much apples to oranges based on observable information you can decode and decipher. No one is getting a year ban if you can pick up a sign, see a guy tipping pitches or you relay location from second base.
EYLive
Footballguy
Of what? Nobody remembers those disgraced cheaters.Works for me. World Champions, baby.
It says a lot about someone that supports trashy team that resorts to cheating.
rockaction
Footballguy
I do feel bad for the Dodgers. Two teams swept up in scandal and defeated by both with utterly -- at the very least -- nebulous moral and ethical circumstances surrounding their victories. 108 don't sound so great right now.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, that's big news. I don't feel too badly for Cora, but this is going to really get him in terms of time and distance and future employment. He had the golden goose with those jobs. Now he's just a cheater to most people.
cosjobs
Footballguy
I am an Astros fan, but certainly not an apologist
Today I read/heard:
Cora taught the Astros how to steal signs on this level
Yankees, Boston, Dodgers all were proficient at it
Luhnow received written directives from the league in '17 regarding the use of electronics to steal signs. Evidently due to bad feelings between him and the other management, he never forwarded them the rule changed (??!!!?)
So in 2017 it was not illegal and possibly in 2018 word was not given to managers/players at the discretion of Luhnow.
Seems crazy
Also, if Cora was so good at it, where did he learn it before going to the Astros?
Today I read/heard:
Cora taught the Astros how to steal signs on this level
Yankees, Boston, Dodgers all were proficient at it
Luhnow received written directives from the league in '17 regarding the use of electronics to steal signs. Evidently due to bad feelings between him and the other management, he never forwarded them the rule changed (??!!!?)
So in 2017 it was not illegal and possibly in 2018 word was not given to managers/players at the discretion of Luhnow.
Seems crazy
Also, if Cora was so good at it, where did he learn it before going to the Astros?
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
cosjobs
Footballguy
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
this was announced at the time of the Apple watch stuff.. sox got a slap on the wrist, believe this was Sept/August 2017. Zero tolerance going forward.
cosjobs
Footballguy
I just noticed you were only referring to one bolded sentence, I thought you meant the entire post
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Yes...
As for who taught Cora, looking back, I think this probably became a "thing" in 2014-ish when they put the video replay apparatus in the dugouts.
Thats one thing that should happen immediately to all teams, that process should be put in the press box in full view of everyone, if there's a replay, buzz down. Or god forbid, get rid of it all together and save the challenge only for the most egregious plays that you can see were brutal with the naked eye. It would lend much better flow to the game and add to pace of play.
But all that stuff for all teams needs to go away, as should iPads in the dugout
Capella
Footballguy
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
I agree... if he can't cheat, what's he got? Cora was a destestable presence to me but he at least exited with some dignity ahead of the storm. I think Hinch is also disqualified from future employment but mainly for his awful handling of things after exiting
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Too bad he got rocked at home in Game 7.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
I'm not saying it's everyday by any means. But it still happens. The unwritten rules in baseball are some of the dumbest things in any sport.
Side note: The guys running in from the bullpen so they can stand around when benches clear is hands down the dumbest thing in any sport every conceived in mankind. Baseball could eliminate that so easily just like hockey did. But they don't. Because baseball likes this stupid stuff. They like that an ump can see a guy miss second base and not say anything because no one asked him. They like that they have a stat that shows how good a catcher is a fooling an umpire. They love all of this stuff that made baseball America's pastime back in the 1800's. The only reason they ever make changes is when it comes from within. And even then, it has to come from within AND have the support of the fans. i.e. Running into the catcher, which was one of the most exciting plays in all of baseball. Sure it was out of place and dangerous, but there was nothing more exciting to see if the catcher could hold onto the ball after getting plowed into by a human running at full speed. Baseball is like any other sport.
matttyl
Footballguy
So last night after the kid's asleep and the house quiets down a bit I sit down in my recliner and start intently reading this thread to try to give myself perspective in a historical sense to all of this. At best I'm a casual baseball fan. Watched my "hometown" Nats a lot this year with their run, and will take my son to his first MLB game this upcoming season - will be the first game for me in years. I really want to know if I should feel "better" about the Nats winning this past year over these "cheaters" or not.
After a few minutes of intent reading, my wife asks what I'm looking at. I tell her "I'm reading a bit into this Houston Astros sign stealing deal." We have a few minute discussion about it where she looks interested, but confused. She said she'd heard a bit about it on the radio or news - but didn't understand why it was such a big deal. She had apparently thought the entire thing was about Astros players/personnel taking physical signs off the walls of the dugouts or clubhouses and had no idea how that would have given them any competitive advantage.
God I love her.
After a few minutes of intent reading, my wife asks what I'm looking at. I tell her "I'm reading a bit into this Houston Astros sign stealing deal." We have a few minute discussion about it where she looks interested, but confused. She said she'd heard a bit about it on the radio or news - but didn't understand why it was such a big deal. She had apparently thought the entire thing was about Astros players/personnel taking physical signs off the walls of the dugouts or clubhouses and had no idea how that would have given them any competitive advantage.
God I love her.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
You should feel really good about your Nats winning as the report stated that the Astros stopped their sign stealing in early 2018.
GregR
Footballguy
Astros fan. Agree with not sure how to feel going forward. Decades ago baseball dropped back into that level of sport that it pretty much took a playoff run to make it worth paying a lot of attention to. But I loved what the championship did for the city. There were some rough times back then with severe oil price drops heavily impacting one of our main industries here. And it had been 20 years since our last major sports championship, so for a lot of people it was the first one they'd seen.
Sucks that the Astros did this to take that luster from the memories. I'll still cheer for them as it's the city's team, but they need to do it right going forward, and not just for the threat of punishment.
Sucks that the Astros did this to take that luster from the memories. I'll still cheer for them as it's the city's team, but they need to do it right going forward, and not just for the threat of punishment.
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First off.....I don't have a dog in the fight. I am not a fan of any of the teams involved.
All teams steal signs. It's not as crucial of a factor as many are making it into. Many teams did the same thing as the Sox and Astros. The rule to ban cameras went into play after the 2017 season. They continued to utilize it so they get punished. It doesn't change the fabric of the game. It was just a different method of sign stealing. The act itself (sign stealing) isn't cheating......it was just deemed the method (cameras) used to accomplish it was not allowed.
JamesonSkittles
Footballguy
Beltran steps down as Mets manager.
All teams steal signs. It is not cheating. I think that is where this is getting blown way out of proportion. It is part of the game....masking your signs and ensuring teams don't steal them is necessary. Methods to steal signs have evolved over time. After the 2017 season MLB said don't use cameras. The act isn't cheating....the method was just disallowed. I know it is splitting hairs but my point is that it doesn't change the fabric of the game...…..and it is still very difficult to hit a pitch even if you know that it is offspeed vs a fastball.
rockaction
Footballguy
Here baseball though they had their goldem goose -- Latinos and Puerto Ricans that could bridge the average white fan to the average Latino player as manager and then some. It probably had to be laughing all the way to the good will bank.
And then, this. They were on the same team, involved in stealing signs and making the wins...umseemly.
Oof.
EYLive
Footballguy
If you do things that have been disallowed to gain an advantage, it's cheating. Stealing signs without the aid of camera technology, on the other hand, is allowed (as far as I know) and is just common gamesmanship.
culdeus
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Beltran was on the 2017 Astros team and was named as one of the "architects" of the system. So it put him in a weird situation. He WAS a player at the time, so he was granted immunity. So while he wasn't going to be suspended, it was still going to be something that was the main focus of the press.culdeus said:
Tom Hagen
Footballguy
There is also a question of whether or not he lied to Mets management about his role. It would be hard to trust a manager that lied about something like this in the interview process.
belljr
Footballguy
Long time baseball guy.... my random .02 fwiw
Yes, sign stealing is a "part of the game". Figuring out if pitchers are tipping pitches also part of the game. And if you dont think its not a HUGE advantage to know when an offspeed pitch is coming vs a fastball, then I will disagree. The timing alone is a huge advantage if I know I can sit back and look away etc etc.
That being said a live feed from a center field camera is so far over the line it's terrible imo. If your guy is on second base and figure it out so be it, if you guys did film study and know if the pitcher nods his head 2 times for a breaking pitch, great. If you have a signal in the dugout for a pitch thats coming (whether it be trashcans, whistles,etc) I dont even have a problem with that.
But a LIVE feed on the catcher to tip every pitch is absolutely terrible. It has no business being in the game, and the fact the teams felt this was "acceptable" is disgusting imo.
Yes, sign stealing is a "part of the game". Figuring out if pitchers are tipping pitches also part of the game. And if you dont think its not a HUGE advantage to know when an offspeed pitch is coming vs a fastball, then I will disagree. The timing alone is a huge advantage if I know I can sit back and look away etc etc.
That being said a live feed from a center field camera is so far over the line it's terrible imo. If your guy is on second base and figure it out so be it, if you guys did film study and know if the pitcher nods his head 2 times for a breaking pitch, great. If you have a signal in the dugout for a pitch thats coming (whether it be trashcans, whistles,etc) I dont even have a problem with that.
But a LIVE feed on the catcher to tip every pitch is absolutely terrible. It has no business being in the game, and the fact the teams felt this was "acceptable" is disgusting imo.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Nice backtrack jessica mendoza.
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
I like the fact that there is a villain in baseball again. It used to be the Yankees, but they haven't really been the Evil Empire of late. All the players seemed to be friends and playing Fortnite together. I think sports are better when you have a team that you can root against. Especially if they're good. I would suspect that if the Astros make the playoffs this season, viewership will go up with so many people "hate watching" the games.
It is bad but it is also easily preventable if you were suspicious it was happening. There shouldn't be a live stream for every pitch for sure and there are now rules against it and teams are being punished for it (as they should be) But knowing what pitch is coming has been happening since baseball started. It didn't change the fabric/integrity of the game. Pitch stealing has always been there. This method is too much and is being punished as it should be. My problem with the reaction is that it is being made out to be the worst thing in the history of the world. It's just being way overblown.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
This guy gets it. Sort of like the Cowboys or Alabama, good enough but where most people are happy when they lose.
-fish-
Footballguy
Thus his request for a Yu Garbage jersey. He has previously stated that he just sucked in that series and sign stealing didn't matter the way he pitched.
That Altuve walk off video holding his jersey and then running into the clubhouse to change is the smoking gun. This story is a lot closer to the beginning than the end. The astros and red Sox will wind up vacating their WS titles, and players will eat season long suspensions.
