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Have the Patriots been dethroned in the AFC? (1 Viewer)

elguapo07

Footballguy
Is this old news? KC is Dee Ford lining offsides from back to back AFC titles.  Throw in Lamar in Bal and Watson in Hou and I can see NE not making another SB for a while.  

 
Yes, they were dethroned this year :)   If I've ever learned anything about the Patriots, it is not to underestimate Bill Belichick and Brady.  Yes, Brady has lost some skills, but he can still chuck that dink and dunk all day long.  If they get the right personnel Brady could have another year where he could dink and dunk teams to death, like he has done in the recent past on his way to the being Super Bowl champion.  They were like little mites running around out there and frustrated anyone who played them.   I hope they are finished, but I won't be the one with the hammer driving that nail into their coffin. 

 
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If Brady leaves the Patriots are certainly done. If he comes back, they have as good a shot as anyone next year. There is no doubt in my mind that the only way Brady returns is if there is an upgrade in surrounding talent.

 
Yep and they know its over. Brady plays in LAC. Pat's tank for Trevor. Then they are back. Anything else and they are just ham & eggers. Gotta have the top tier franchise QB to be perrenial SB contenders

 
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Yep and they know its over. Brady plays in LAC. Pat's tank for Trevor. Then they are back. Anything else and they are just ham & eggers. Gotta have the top tier franchise QB to be perrenial SB contenders
Them getting Lawrence is about as possible as me going to the moon. 

 
Them getting Lawrence is about as possible as me going to the moon. 
It would take more than 11 guys getting injured for you to go to the Moon. Or one coach retiring.

It's not likely, but that offense isn't good. The defense could fall apart. Jets, bills and even the dolphins are rising. 

 
It would take more than 11 guys getting injured for you to go to the Moon. Or one coach retiring.

It's not likely, but that offense isn't good. The defense could fall apart. Jets, bills and even the dolphins are rising. 
Some other team would tank more than the Patriots.  No way teams will allow the Patriots to get Lawrence.

 
It would take more than 11 guys getting injured for you to go to the Moon. Or one coach retiring.

It's not likely, but that offense isn't good. The defense could fall apart. Jets, bills and even the dolphins are rising. 
Sam Howell may be just as good or better than Lawrence.  

 
It was a historic 20 year run for New England, breaking team records which will probably never be touched again in the NFL, but it's over now. Brady is quickly approaching the cliff, his play dropped off significantly last season. This is partly due to the failure of Belichick to replace Gronk, as well providing Brady with other meaningful weapons outside of White and Edelman. 

 
I mean, they aren't playing in the Super Bowl so by definition they have been dethroned. If you mean are they done as a team to beat, I'd say not yet.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Patriots were in the Super Bowl next year. They had a very banged up offense, especially the o-line down the stretch, and still should have an elite defense. Add a weapon or 2 in the passing game, and why can't New England contend? 

A lot needs to go right for them, but that is true of almost anybody. A lot needed to go right for KC this year. I'm not confident saying KC would have beaten the Ravens if they had faced them, or the Patriots for that matter. They had a very fortunate road. I personally think San Fran beats them by 10+ points. 

 
I personally think San Fran beats them by 10+ points. 
There's a dude up in Seattle who you can think of as Patrick Mahomes Lite. 

He doesn't have anything like Travis Kelce and the the speed demons that Mahomes has, and he gives San Fran all they can handle when they play.

Based on this comparable, I'll take KC-4.5.  I may be all wet, but I'm not as bold as SF-10.5.

 
NE didn't win this year, but that doesn't mean they are dead and buried and couldn't win next year. We just saw playoff games in each round of the playoffs where the QB for a winning team did not pass for 100 yards. The 49ers won yesterday throwing 8 passes. NE had the top defense this year (at least on paper) in both points and yards. They will still have BB. I don't see much of a drop off next season, with or without Brady. (At this point, a case can be made they would be better off without Brady.)

 
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NE didn't win this year, but that doesn't mean they are dead and buried and couldn't win next year. We just saw playoff games in each round of the playoffs where the QB for a winning team did not pass for 100 yards. The 49ers won yesterday throwing 8 passes. NE had the top defense this year (at least on paper) in both points and yards. They will still have BB. I don't see much of a drop off next see, with or without Brady. (At this point, a case can be made they would be better off without Brady.)
its over dave....best run ever....enjoy it... 

 
its over dave....best run ever....enjoy it... 
Riddle me this . . . other than Brady, NE had a completely different surrounding cast on their recent run compared to their initial run. Which part of building a team and managing the salary cap better than anyone else has BB suddenly now forgotten in all this time? NE lost 4 of their 5 losses this year by one possession. The league will still have plenty of young and inexperienced coaches and quarterbacks . . . which is who NE has feasted on for years. We'll have to see how things turn out, but IMO there is A LOT of wishful thinking going on if folks are thinking the Patriots will start having 5 or 6 win seasons moving forward.

 
Riddle me this . . . other than Brady, NE had a completely different surrounding cast on their recent run compared to their initial run. Which part of building a team and managing the salary cap better than anyone else has BB suddenly now forgotten in all this time? NE lost 4 of their 5 losses this year by one possession. The league will still have plenty of young and inexperienced coaches and quarterbacks . . . which is who NE has feasted on for years. We'll have to see how things turn out, but IMO there is A LOT of wishful thinking going on if folks are thinking the Patriots will start having 5 or 6 win seasons moving forward.
perfect combo of great coach and great qb....the replacement is playing in rhe superbowl this year.....odds of them getting another one????

as for the margin of loss? doesnt the whole league average out to 23 to 17 common score? its the nfl..a one score loss is still a loss

 
perfect combo of great coach and great qb....the replacement is playing in rhe superbowl this year.....odds of them getting another one????

as for the margin of loss? doesnt the whole league average out to 23 to 17 common score? its the nfl..a one score loss is still a loss
Which one of Garoppolo's 8 passes last week was the one that put the 49ers in the Super Bowl? He ended up on an all around great team. Put him on the Browns, Giants, Bengals, etc. and no one would be talking about Jimmy G.

 
and btw....brady isnt going anywhere....kraft will pay him whatever he wants....but they need gronk....no gronk no chance
How many SB's did NE win without Gronk? The answer is 4. So I am pretty sure they can win without Gronk.

Do people really think NE is just going to sit idly by and make NO CHANGES from this year to next? The Patriots have been the biggest amoeba in the league over the years, winning with receivers . . . or tight ends . . . or running backs catching the ball . . . or running the football  . . . or playing great defense. Brady or no Brady, they are still a playoff team. How another QB would handle the playoffs is an X factor.

I'm actually waiting for TB to be done so BB can prove he can win without him. They did go 14-6 with Cassel, Jimmy G, and Brissett starting (in 2008 and 2016). As I just mentioned, BB is not going to forget how to coach or manage the salary cap just because at some point Brady will not be in the locker room. 

 
How many SB's did NE win without Gronk? The answer is 4. So I am pretty sure they can win without Gronk.

Do people really think NE is just going to sit idly by and make NO CHANGES from this year to next? The Patriots have been the biggest amoeba in the league over the years, winning with receivers . . . or tight ends . . . or running backs catching the ball . . . or running the football  . . . or playing great defense. Brady or no Brady, they are still a playoff team. How another QB would handle the playoffs is an X factor.

I'm actually waiting for TB to be done so BB can prove he can win without him. They did go 14-6 with Cassel, Jimmy G, and Brissett starting (in 2008 and 2016). As I just mentioned, BB is not going to forget how to coach or manage the salary cap just because at some point Brady will not be in the locker room. 
that's all nice, I think BB career ends a lot like parcells, doing great with less, but never really getting the teams over the top and winning the superbowl.

And as far as one score games go...……..34-28, 28-24,  24-21, 32-29, 20-17 ……...5/6 superbowls won by one score or less, one of the luckiest GD teams of all time. 

Past gains do not guarantee future results, the mystic and the hex over the afc is over

 
I've got to say a great part of me wants to see this.

I'd also like to see Brady succeed elsewhere.
Sadly, I doubt this will be a fair fight (BB w/o Brady vs. Brady w/o BB). Brady is no longer in his prime and is much closer to a game manager and an average QB. Brady as a non-Patriot would need a killer defense and strong running game to win consistently. But no team at this point is going to be able to have to rely on Brady to win games as a main cog (that includes NE).

BB will still have the smarts and the savvy to confuse inexperienced coaches and QB's, and that alone should be enough to keep NE in the playoffs (and / or in double digit wins). The motivational speech is already writing itself . . . he will be able to squeeze every last drop of "no one thinks we can win without Tom" out of his team. And no matter who their QB eventually turns out to be, they will have different play calling options than with TB12.

 
There's a dude up in Seattle who you can think of as Patrick Mahomes Lite. 

He doesn't have anything like Travis Kelce and the the speed demons that Mahomes has, and he gives San Fran all they can handle when they play.

Based on this comparable, I'll take KC-4.5.  I may be all wet, but I'm not as bold as SF-10.5.
I think that is a pretty large oversimplification. Wilson and co. are more familiar with San Fran than anybody. The 49ers DC was from Seattle, in addition to facing them twice a year. The Chiefs face them once every 4 years, I don't expect Mahomes to be as good as Wilson at knowing coverages or where blitzers are coming from. I'd also put the Seahawks WR's up against the Chiefs WR's and call that a draw, both speed wise and overall talent wise. Don't forget the Seahawks had Josh Gordon for their win over San Fran. Seattle also had a much better running game with Carson/Penny at the time. 

On the other side, there is no reason the 49ers can't do the exact thing they have done the past 2 weeks on offense. Both the Packers, and especially the Vikings, have better defenses than the Chiefs do. 

The Chiefs have a shot, but they have to get up early. If they fall into a 10+ point hole again, like they have the last 2 games, I don't think they can fight out of it, because they are going from facing mediocre defenses, to the very best one in the league. If KC can get up early, and make it so Garoppolo has to have a big game, the Chiefs can win, but that requires beating that D and shutting down that run game early, and I'm not confident they can do either, let alone both.

 
I think that is a pretty large oversimplification. Wilson and co. are more familiar with San Fran than anybody. The 49ers DC was from Seattle, in addition to facing them twice a year. The Chiefs face them once every 4 years, I don't expect Mahomes to be as good as Wilson at knowing coverages or where blitzers are coming from. I'd also put the Seahawks WR's up against the Chiefs WR's and call that a draw, both speed wise and overall talent wise. Don't forget the Seahawks had Josh Gordon for their win over San Fran. Seattle also had a much better running game with Carson/Penny at the time. 

On the other side, there is no reason the 49ers can't do the exact thing they have done the past 2 weeks on offense. Both the Packers, and especially the Vikings, have better defenses than the Chiefs do. 

The Chiefs have a shot, but they have to get up early. If they fall into a 10+ point hole again, like they have the last 2 games, I don't think they can fight out of it, because they are going from facing mediocre defenses, to the very best one in the league. If KC can get up early, and make it so Garoppolo has to have a big game, the Chiefs can win, but that requires beating that D and shutting down that run game early, and I'm not confident they can do either, let alone both.
No way you can say that with a straight face

 
No way you can say that with a straight face
When Gordon was there, I'd argue Seattle had superior talent. Hill is better than anyone Seattle has, but Lockett and Metcalf are both better than Watkins, and Gordon was probably even with him. Hardman has speed, but he's nowhere near those guys yet. 

Lockett and Metcalf are both 4.3 guys. Gordon a 4.4 guy. Hill and Hardman are 4.3 guys, Watkins a 4.4 guy. Its arguable that both Gordon and Watkins no longer run quite as fast as they once did.

I'm failing to see what is so crazy about my statement.

 
When Gordon was there, I'd argue Seattle had superior talent. Hill is better than anyone Seattle has, but Lockett and Metcalf are both better than Watkins, and Gordon was probably even with him. Hardman has speed, but he's nowhere near those guys yet. 

Lockett and Metcalf are both 4.3 guys. Gordon a 4.4 guy. Hill and Hardman are 4.3 guys, Watkins a 4.4 guy. Its arguable that both Gordon and Watkins no longer run quite as fast as they once did.

I'm failing to see what is so crazy about my statement.
Josh Gordon hasn’t been good in years. This year he averaged less than 2.5 catches a game, so he’s more a non factor. KC also has Kelce, who’s likely better than anybody Seattle has. 

 
Bleacher Report: The New England Patriots' Dynasty Is Dead 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/324239-patriots-dynasty-is-dead

Date of Birth: February 3, 2002

Date of Death: January 10, 2010

It’s official: the Patriots’ dynasty is over.

...the team’s unprecedented run as a perennial Super Bowl contender has succumbed to its death.

...we can now say with absolute certainty that Belichick’s decision to ship off both Mike Vrabel and Richard Seymour was a big mistake on his part. Amidst all the off-season losses New England suffered over the last two years, it was foolish to think replacing key veterans with young talent would be a seamless transition, because it simply wasn’t.

...The Patriots quarterback desperately missed the services of Wes Welker, who ripped his knee apart and won’t likely be returning until the midway point of the 2010 season.

Without the nimble slot receiver, who caught 123 passes for 1,348 yards, it’s clearly not the same offense, and Brady looked surprisingly lost with no targets...

...the Patriots we knew in the 2000s will quickly fade into obscurity.  









 
I'm sure JimmyG shipment is now regretted by Kraft.  He forced it because Brady wanted it that way.  BB was livid.  I look for NE to attempt a big move in the draft to get their QB they are going to desperately need in the near future.
Do you really think the hoodie wants to develop a rookie qb? They don't have great draft position to move up and they'll lose more after the video taping again. I expect them to go with the young they have while really looking for a veteran qb to bring in. 

 
I'm sure JimmyG shipment is now regretted by Kraft.  He forced it because Brady wanted it that way.  BB was livid.  I look for NE to attempt a big move in the draft to get their QB they are going to desperately need in the near future.
Why?

They won another super bowl and barely lost another. You don't think other franchises would make that trade in a heartbeat?

That 2nd rounder netted:

- LB Christian Sam
- DB Joejuan Williams
- RB Damien Harris
- QB Jarrett Stidham
- 2020 fourth-round pick from Chicago
- 2020 sixth-round pick from Denver

Book is not closed on the trade.

And Stidham could be the guy after another year of seasoning.

 
Yep and they know its over. Brady plays in LAC. Pat's tank for Trevor. Then they are back. Anything else and they are just ham & eggers. Gotta have the top tier franchise QB to be perrenial SB contenders


The Chargers are my current fav. for the #1 pick. Rivers is gone and they are the worst team in that division.
These two statements are completely contradictory.  There is no way in hell that Brady goes to a team unless it has a legitimate chance at the Super Bowl.  That is all he is playing for now.  To show he can get there again.....whether that is with or without BB is yet to be seen.  I so no way that he goes to the Chargers because I don't believe they have any chance at the SB.....which you seem to agree with since you have them as your favorite for the #1 pick.

 
There's a dude up in Seattle who you can think of as Patrick Mahomes Lite. 
Interesting take. If someone wanted to make the argument that Wilson was 1.1 of all players in the NFL, I wouldn't blink. I'd take him number 1, calling him PM lite is silly. Furthermore, he gives the 49ers all they can handle bc they're division rivals, they always know each other very well. 

Oh, and this year he had Lockett/Metcalf/Carson (Gordon was also in the mix for a little)... I'd call that an extremely sound group of skilled players :shrug:  
 

ETA: The 49ers also went into the most difficult stadium to play with everything on the line and won the game to finish the 2019 regular season.

 
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I mean, they aren't playing in the Super Bowl so by definition they have been dethroned. If you mean are they done as a team to beat, I'd say not yet.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the Patriots were in the Super Bowl next year. They had a very banged up offense, especially the o-line down the stretch, and still should have an elite defense. Add a weapon or 2 in the passing game, and why can't New England contend? 

A lot needs to go right for them, but that is true of almost anybody. A lot needed to go right for KC this year. I'm not confident saying KC would have beaten the Ravens if they had faced them, or the Patriots for that matter. They had a very fortunate road. I personally think San Fran beats them by 10+ points. 
They had very little talent on the offensive side of the ball.  They had nobody that could get open when they needed a 3rd and 8.  No separation from any WR and it hurt them badly. 

I also don't think the defense was elite.  It was a good defense that kept them in games and gave them chances to win but that "elite" title was bolstered by the first half of the season where they played absolutely terrible offenses and had numbers on paper that were not equal to the actual play of the defense. 

 
 I'd also put the Seahawks WR's up against the Chiefs WR's and call that a draw, both speed wise and overall talent wise. 

:lol: .    No.

On the other side, there is no reason the 49ers can't do the exact thing they have done the past 2 weeks on offense. Both the Packers, and especially the Vikings, have better defenses than the Chiefs do. 

Maybe, but the Chiefs offense is far superior to either of those teams.  

The Chiefs have a shot, but they have to get up early. If they fall into a 10+ point hole again, like they have the last 2 games, I don't think they can fight out of it, because they are going from facing mediocre defenses, to the very best one in the league. If KC can get up early, and make it so Garoppolo has to have a big game, the Chiefs can win, but that requires beating that D and shutting down that run game early, and I'm not confident they can do either, let alone both.

The Chiefs have a shot because they are good.  People talked about "if they get down to the Titans that running game will prevent them from winning."  
This is the beauty of this game. It really is a strength vs strength match-up. That 1 point line looks right to me: this game is a toss-up.

 
I think maybe the torched has been passed....an outsider looking in could say KC is set up to take the lead here for a while....Mahomes is going to get paid, but something tells me he will work with the team and structure things so they are manageable (ala Brady) and they can keep guys like Hill and Kelce for as long as they can, while they also continue to reload him through the draft and free agency with speed and o line protection.....free agents will recognize whats going on and their may not be a bigger free agent draw/magnet in the league then Mahomes....let alone combining him with Reid...a chance to win it all every year for the next 12 years or more....a guy like Suggs agreeing to come when he initially said BAL or nobody is just an example....

 
Does BB buy low on a former 1st round draft pick still on his rookie contract who has recently fallen out of favor to bring in along with Stidham?   Could he do anything with Rosen or Trubusky?  

 
Does BB buy low on a former 1st round draft pick still on his rookie contract who has recently fallen out of favor to bring in along with Stidham?   Could he do anything with Rosen or Trubusky?  
I think it's more likely they like what they have with Stidham but know he needs another season or so.

If Brady is gone, I think it would be more likely they try to find a stop gap measure.

Hate to say it, but...gulp...I could see that stop gap being Andy Dalton.

 

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