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*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (15 Viewers)

TheWinz said:
I was actually on a different train of thought.  I was starting with a house, but was working towards a place like a grocery store.  Does the store have the right to physically deny access to someone not wearing a mask?  For example, can a grocery store hire a bouncer?
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Had to go to the bank a few days ago and there was a security officer outside making sure everyone was wearing a mask on entry. No clue if he would bounce someone who refused.

 
TheWinz said:
I was actually on a different train of thought.  I was starting with a house, but was working towards a place like a grocery store.  Does the store have the right to physically deny access to someone not wearing a mask?  For example, can a grocery store hire a bouncer?
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Sure, just like they can refuse you access if you are not wearing a shirt, shoes etc., It's private property

 
Judge Smails said:
I sent my doctor a note about my shock that one person in the entire office was wearing a mask besides me.  He sent me a long winded first note, then sent a second note saying he talked about it with his nurse practitioner and they are all wearing masks from now unless a patient specifically requests he doesn’t.
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Strange that it took a concerned patient to make them aware of the benefits of wearing a mask. I'm not sure why any patient would want their doc to not wear a mask. The AMA, AHA and ANA all recommend masks. 

https://www.ophthalmologytimes.com/view/ama-aha-ana-issue-open-letter-urging-americans-to-wear-masks-to-slow-spread-of-coronavirus

 
Penguin said:
Sure, just like they can refuse you access if you are not wearing a shirt, shoes etc., It's private property
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OK, so if a grocery store bouncer denies access to a non-mask wearer, and the person tries to push past the bouncer, the bouncer then has the right to defend himself, and use force to deny access?  Please just say yes so I can move on to my next point  :D

 
Thanx for saying Yes.  Onto my next point...

A person wears a mask into the store, then takes it off once they are in.  Does the bouncer have the same right to use force to remove the person?  Or, once in the store, is it only law enforcement officers who can remove the individual?

 
TheWinz said:
Thanx for saying Yes.  Onto my next point...

A person wears a mask into the store, then takes it off once they are in.  Does the bouncer have the same right to use force to remove the person?  Or, once in the store, is it only law enforcement officers who can remove the individual?
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To be honest, from a legal stand point I don't know, but, if I was working security and someone violated the stores rules of entry I'd engage local law enforcement, I'd rather them engage the person rather than myself. If a private property store has a sign up stating that no one can enter the store without wearing a mask how is that different than if they have the typical "No shoes, no shirt, no service" sign up? It's private property, they can make up whatever entry rules they want.

 
Continuing the thought process...

Do I, as a masked shopper, have the right to abandon my cart of frozen goods and leave the store if an unmasked customer is allowed to enter?

 
Now, to be honest, in my opinion that would be rather drastic. You can still try and be mostly can keep a safe distance from the jackalope that's not wearing a mask, but I can't persecute anyone that chooses to leave

 
Penguin said:
Yes, even if some would view it as rude or irresponsible.
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Kind of my end point.  I would surely do this if I was having a bad day, and it was a big chain store.  I couldn't do it to a mom & pop type store though.  I'd feel like a #####.

 
Penguin said:
Now, to be honest, in my opinion that would be rather drastic. You can still try and be mostly can keep a safe distance from the jackalope that's not wearing a mask, but I can't persecute anyone that chooses to leave
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The whole point is to get these establishments to enforce their own rules.  If a place like WalMart can spend a few bucks to have a person at the front denying access, do it.

 
The Commish said:
Yeah.... not a chance in hell i take a vaccine that they come up with in a matter of months much less my kids. Not going to happen. 
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What specifically are you concerned about? What timeframe for development would make you comfortable accepting the vaccine for yourself and your family?

 
All this talk reminds me of a game we used to play as kids.  It was called "Air".  The game started when your older brother crowded around you, and said the word "air", which meant he wasn't touching you, therefore you couldn't touch him.  He would eventually have you wedged into a corner without ever having actually touched you, and when you finally touched him, he would kick your ###.

 
I agree, but there's a few issues with that. You could have a $10 an hour "Security Guard" at the Walmart entrance and some jackalope comes in without a mask and pulls a gun on the poor guy when he's told he needs to wear a mask. "Security Gurads" are not trained or paid to risk their lives as law enforcement are.

 
Penguin said:
I agree, but there's a few issues with that. You could have a $10 an hour "Security Guard" at the Walmart entrance and some jackalope comes in without a mask and pulls a gun on the poor guy when he's told he needs to wear a mask. "Security Gurads" are not trained or paid to risk their lives as law enforcement are.
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Prior to all this COVID crap, nearly every nightclub in the USA had a bouncer.  Many of these people are out of work.

As for law enforcement, I think it's quite clear they are not going to respond to calls of mask non-compliance, unless a physical altercation has taken place.  Establishments are gonna be on their own.

 
TheWinz said:
Prior to all this COVID crap, nearly every nightclub in the USA had a bouncer.  Many of these people are out of work.

As for law enforcement, I think it's quite clear they are not going to respond to calls of mask non-compliance, unless a physical altercation has taken place.  Establishments are gonna be on their own.
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I agree with this as well. I just don't know of how far "store security" can go in enforcing store policies, in fact some are State mandated policies right now.

 
Chemical X said:
after 9/11, this country was together. 
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People always say this but was all that togetherness actually a good thing?  I mean, everyone decided together to get into two long expensive bloody wars, and we decided together to pass the Patriot Act.  And together we all agreed that we would henceforth engage in an elaborate security ritual at the airport to provide some illusion of safety.  Maybe it would have been better if we weren’t so together and there had been a bigger group of people saying “ummm, hey let’s not do that.

I recognize that the above could be taken the wrong way with respect to COVID. With this one we should probably stick together.

 
Let’s just look at this broadly and break it down.

COVID Exposure Risk = Virus Present x Distance x Time

Virus Present = Community Prevalence x Virus Cells Emitted

Distance = Physical Distance x Mitigating factors

How do you decrease community prevalence? You stay locked down with true restrictions long enough to kill the spread and get it down to manageable levels.

How do you decrease the virus cells emitted. The simplest is wearing a mask. It won’t stop everything but it will restrict a lot. Also can be decreased by avoiding actions that create large droplets like coughing, sneezing, breathing hard, yelling and singing. You also need to restrict asymptomatic/pre-symptomatic exposure and that can only be done with extensive testing, contract tracing and quarantine.

Physical distancing is not only the 6 feet but simply not being near other people if you don’t need to.

Mitigating factors to the distance can be airflow, the size of the room, airflow restrictions, indoors vs outdoors.

Time is simply just time. Spend enough time around someone and it won’t matter what precautions you take, your risk will increase. Masks will limit the particles emitted but if you spend a lot of time with them, those little amounts pile up.
 

Likewise physical distancing decreases in effectiveness over time - staying 6 feet apart for 5 minutes isn’t the same as staying 6 feet apart for 3 hours. The mitigating factor of being outside will also decrease the longer you’re out.

Simple rules to live by to stop the spread:

*Stay away long enough to lower the community prevalence.

*Wear a mask to restrict the virus particle freely going into the air.

*Keep your distance from others when you need to be out

*Limit the time you do anything, no matter the restrictions taken. 

*Avoid activities that cause excessive droplet production in public. 

But the biggest thing to remember is that we are dependent on everyone else doing it. Outside of never leaving the house, we can only restrict our personal risk as much as the rest of the herd is willing to play along. We can’t continue to live in a society where the only way we can slow down and contain the spread of the virus is with shutdowns. That will lead to us continually getting hit hard not only physically but also socially and economically.

 
We have a mask mandate currently. Our store (grocery/pharmacy) isn’t actively enforcing it. Right now I don’t have a problem with it. Compliance is probably 90-95%. When one of the rare people comes in without, I’m not going to stop them. It’s like herd immunity, you don’t need 100% compliance for it to be effective. Now if that percentage starts to drop, I might be getting on the manager to enforce it. At this point the conflict isn’t worth it.

 
Penguin said:
If friends, family, neighbors etc. have different fundamental views regarding wearing masks, social distancing etc., maybe you shouldn't congregate together for the immediate future
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This is increasingly becoming a difficult issue.

My best friend is getting married. I hate it, but there is zero chance I'm going. My parents also thankfully declined, he's like another son to them, so it's very hard. Trying to do the right thing, I just can't, in good conscience, participate. Trying to get that across without sounding like I'm judging the decision to do this. Even though I obviously don't think it's a good idea.

Then of course my sister, who thinks this is all way overblown is going. That's fine, but she's also the sort of emotional hot head that will lose her ever loving mind if my parents were to ask her to stay away for couple of weeks afterwards. I can't see them having it in them to ask her to stay away. I can't say that I won't get drunk and ask this of her, which will lead to her going ballistic. 

Anyway, this obviously all puts a strain on a lot of relationships. 

 
CR69 said:
I get that. 

Personally, months ago I accepted the possibility that this would be our new normal for a couple of years. Instead of thinking about how this sucks or how I wish we could go on vacation, I've spent my time figuring out how to make the best of it. We've bought more board games, started learning DnD, reading Harry Potter as a family, etc. I think we've actually become much closer as a family during this because we've chosen to focus on what we can do instead of what we're missing. 
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I think this is it. It’s a realization I had this weekend. The chairman at my company basically delivered a message that said it’s a dangerous mentality to assume this is going to go back to normal, like after a snow day. We should accept and even embrace this as a new normal, and a lot is going to change. Basically we are never going back to how things were before. 
 

Depressing in some ways, but there are some silver linings I guess (we’re not likely to have business travel like we used to; I won’t have to commute every day like I used to; and maybe I’ll even work from home more often than not). 
 

But I think the first step is just accepting these truths and then moving forward. 

 
Terminalxylem said:
What specifically are you concerned about? What timeframe for development would make you comfortable accepting the vaccine for yourself and your family?
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The standard times it takes.  From a logic perspective, it doesn't pass the sniff test if the normal time is say 2 years (making these numbers up by the way) to do all the analysis, data collecting, observation, safety, etc then all of a sudden we can somehow do that in a matter of months?  I just don't trust our drug companies knowing that the first one to market is going to get a HUGE pay day (larger than normal).

 
TheWinz said:
I was actually on a different train of thought.  I was starting with a house, but was working towards a place like a grocery store.  Does the store have the right to physically deny access to someone not wearing a mask?  For example, can a grocery store hire a bouncer?
Click to expand...
I don't see why not.  Wearing a mask isn't all that different from requiring a shirt or shoes and that is damn near everywhere.  This is why I've never understood the "rights" angle to this whole thing....it isn't a "right" or a "freedom" not to wear a mask.

 
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TheWinz said:
Thanx for saying Yes.  Onto my next point...

A person wears a mask into the store, then takes it off once they are in.  Does the bouncer have the same right to use force to remove the person?  Or, once in the store, is it only law enforcement officers who can remove the individual?
Click to expand...
Sure....it's still a private establishment.  However, IMO, it would be foolish to attempt to resolve this with private "security" in areas where there are ordinances against it...call the cops.

 
pollardsvision said:
This is increasingly becoming a difficult issue.

My best friend is getting married. I hate it, but there is zero chance I'm going. My parents also thankfully declined, he's like another son to them, so it's very hard. Trying to do the right thing, I just can't, in good conscience, participate. Trying to get that across without sounding like I'm judging the decision to do this. Even though I obviously don't think it's a good idea.

Then of course my sister, who thinks this is all way overblown is going. That's fine, but she's also the sort of emotional hot head that will lose her ever loving mind if my parents were to ask her to stay away for couple of weeks afterwards. I can't see them having it in them to ask her to stay away. I can't say that I won't get drunk and ask this of her, which will lead to her going ballistic. 

Anyway, this obviously all puts a strain on a lot of relationships. 
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My son decided to wed in the middle of the initial wave in a small ceremony outside under a Gazebo about 5 hours away from where I live. My wife and I didn't go. Both of her parents were there with there spouses but they lived locally. He and his new wife seemed to take it in stride. My thought there is, people can get upset if they want, but for me, it beats being dead. So...

 
The Commish said:
I don't see why not.  Wearing a mask isn't all that different from requiring a shirt or shoes and that is damn near everywhere.  This is why I've never understood the "rights" angle to this whole thing....it isn't a "right" or a "freedom" not to wear a mask.
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Exactly.  This is a "responsibility" issue.  I have the right to drive a vehicle, but if I get decide to get plastered, I have the responsibility to turn my keys over.

I work in food service.  I have to wear gloves when handling food to help prevent the potential spread of bacteria into the food.  They aren't always comfortable and tend to dry out my skin.  But I wear them for the guest's piece of mind/safety.  I'm pretty sure that the non-mask wearers would be the first people to go ballistic if I handled their food bare-handed in front of them.  Same principle.

I have a type-1 diabetic son that lives with me.  This virus has a high potential to be dangerous to him if I bring it home.  It really burns me up when people approach me without a mask, especially if they take the attitude of this isn't a big deal, muh rights, it's hot, it's uncomfortable, etc....

 
@Mr. Ham interested in an update on how the garden turned out. You took a fair amount of heat for the prep work you put in when this kicked off and decided to go into personal lockdown way before the curve. Curious how it's all working out 5-6 months in? TIA

 
pollardsvision said:
This is increasingly becoming a difficult issue.

My best friend is getting married. I hate it, but there is zero chance I'm going. My parents also thankfully declined, he's like another son to them, so it's very hard. Trying to do the right thing, I just can't, in good conscience, participate. Trying to get that across without sounding like I'm judging the decision to do this. Even though I obviously don't think it's a good idea.

Then of course my sister, who thinks this is all way overblown is going. That's fine, but she's also the sort of emotional hot head that will lose her ever loving mind if my parents were to ask her to stay away for couple of weeks afterwards. I can't see them having it in them to ask her to stay away. I can't say that I won't get drunk and ask this of her, which will lead to her going ballistic. 

Anyway, this obviously all puts a strain on a lot of relationships. 
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I hear you. It's tough.

My wife and I are going to a wedding in October.  To top it off, my wife is the maid of honor so she has to plan the bachelorette party and help out with the actual wedding arrangements.  Plus we have to consider flying up there and if we have to quarantine there or home when we get back.

It's such a cluster #### to have a wedding over the next 6 months.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
People always say this but was all that togetherness actually a good thing?  I mean, everyone decided together to get into two long expensive bloody wars, and we decided together to pass the Patriot Act.  And together we all agreed that we would henceforth engage in an elaborate security ritual at the airport to provide some illusion of safety.  Maybe it would have been better if we weren’t so together and there had been a bigger group of people saying “ummm, hey let’s not do that.

I recognize that the above could be taken the wrong way with respect to COVID. With this one we should probably stick together.
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working at a bank, i don’t disagree.  we gave up a lot of privacy.

 
TheWinz said:
Hypothetical

A friend is in your house, when they decide to tell you they are against masks.  They proceed to remove their mask and you demand they put it back on or get out.  They refuse to do either, so you call law enforcement, who say they ain't coming for such a trivial thing.  What do you do? 
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I show him the pee on his jeans graphic. Well i mean i show him. 

 
Sunday numbers (which are always quite lower)

Deaths in the 21 "Outbreak States"

(CA, TX, FL, AZ, GA, NC, LA, OH, TN, SC, AL, WA, WI, MS, UT, MO, AK, NV, OK, KS, NM)

July 12: 288 deaths

Last three Sundays: (122,133,288)

7-day average in deaths

6/28: 278

6/29: 304

6/30: 310

7/1: 305

7/2: 316

7/3: 321

7/4: 302

7/5: 304

7/6: 317

7/7: 340

7/8: 361

7/9: 391

7/10: 421

7/11: 474

7/12: 496

 
Mr. Ham said:
Second Infections?
Click to expand...


Even if we accept this scenario on face value, that doctor has made all kinds of ridiculous leaps with virtually no evidence.  Kiss herd immunity goodbye, vaccines will be useless,  oh and this thing is like dengue fever it's going to be worse the second time you get it.  Sample size of one.  Very scary if true, but I'm going to want a little more evidence before I buy into this one.  

 
Contact tracing is ramping up in Florida, finally, but it doesn't work well when there are too many cases to trace.

There should be a major effort to focus on schools, with virus sequencing, at least in a few school districts. Then we'll have better answers. 

 
Willy said:
Even if we accept this scenario on face value, that doctor has made all kinds of ridiculous leaps with virtually no evidence.  Kiss herd immunity goodbye, vaccines will be useless,  oh and this thing is like dengue fever it's going to be worse the second time you get it.  Sample size of one.  Very scary if true, but I'm going to want a little more evidence before I buy into this one.  
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Yep, not to mention with the unreliability of the testing, it is very possible that any second infection is just a first infection after a false positive. 

 
Battersbox said:
Doug B said:
This is a good point, too -- the continuing mystery concerning how COVID Patient A, 103o fever and coughing up lungs, can spread practically no virus to others ... while COVID Patient B can be totally asymptomatic, feel nothing, and yet be a continuing smokestack of viruses as he breathes calmly.
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This write-up attempts to address this.

https://medium.com/@vernunftundrichtigkeit/coronavirus-why-everyone-was-wrong-fce6db5ba809
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I'm just getting started on that article, but the opening paragraphs sure are provocative:

Why everyone was wrong

The coronavirus is slowly retreating. What actually happened in the past few weeks? The experts have missed basic connections. The immune response against the virus is much stronger than we thought.

By Beda M Stadler

This is not an accusation, but a ruthless taking stock [of the current situation]. I could slap myself, because I looked at Sars-CoV2- way too long with panic. I am also somewhat annoyed with many of my immunology colleagues who so far have left the discussion about Covid-19 to virologist and epidemiologist. I feel it is time to criticise some of the main and completely wrong public statements about this virus.

Firstly, it was wrong to claim that this virus was novel. Secondly, It was even more wrong to claim that the population would not already have some immunity against this virus. Thirdly, it was the crowning of stupidity to claim that someone could have Covid-19 without any symptoms at all or even to pass the disease along without showing any symptoms whatsoever.
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Whoever posted the article to Medium tacked on this caveat -- basically making clear that the perspective in this article does not come from a U.S.-based source with U.S.-specific assumptions:

The original article was published in the Swiss magazine Weltwoche (World Week) on June 10th. The author, Beda M Stadler is the former director of the Institute for Immunology at the University of Bern, a biologist and professor emeritus. Stadler is an important medical professional in Switzerland, he also likes to use provoking language, which should not deter you from the extremely important points he makes.

This article is about Switzerland and it does not suggest that the situation is exactly the same globally. I am advocating for local measures according to local situations. And I advocate for looking at real data rather than abstract models. I also suggest to read to the end, because Stadler makes crucial points about testing for Sars-CoV-2.
Click to expand...

 
shader said:
Mr. Ham said:
Second Infections?
Click to expand...
This would really surprise me.  I wonder if there's any chance that faulty testing gave a false positive the first time, and he truly got covid the 2nd time?
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So far as I'm aware, this can happen with other viral infections, too , because individual persons differ in 'quality' of immune response -- some small portion of people won't develop effective antibodies, or sufficiently-robust antibodies. The outstanding question is how frequently this happens with COVID-19 : is it one person in five, or one in fifty thousand?

 
shader said:
Sunday numbers (which are always quite lower)

Deaths in the 21 "Outbreak States"

(CA, TX, FL, AZ, GA, NC, LA, OH, TN, SC, AL, WA, WI, MS, UT, MO, AK, NV, OK, KS, NM)

July 12: 288 deaths

Last three Sundays: (122,133,288)

7-day average in deaths

6/28: 278

6/29: 304

6/30: 310

7/1: 305

7/2: 316

7/3: 321

7/4: 302

7/5: 304

7/6: 317

7/7: 340

7/8: 361

7/9: 391

7/10: 421

7/11: 474

7/12: 496
Click to expand...
Since you include Kansas in these numbers, here is what's really going on in this state. Kansas recorded their first death on March 11th. We've had 284 total deaths from then until July 8th, which is the last date the state of Kansas updated their site. A large majority of those were early nursing home deaths in a couple of areas here. 

Since about May 16th, the most we have had in a day is 4. We are somewhere between 0 and 4 a day. 

As far as cases go, yes we saw a spike when things started opening up again, but from what I can tell deaths haven't followed that spike. 

 
SoBeDad said:
Contact tracing is ramping up in Florida, finally, but it doesn't work well when there are too many cases to trace.

There should be a major effort to focus on schools, with virus sequencing, at least in a few school districts. Then we'll have better answers. 
Click to expand...
We could have the best contact tracing in the world.  If we don't act on the data we collect, it's a pointless waste of funds.  :shrug:  

 
ChiefD said:
Since you include Kansas in these numbers, here is what's really going on in this state. Kansas recorded their first death on March 11th. We've had 284 total deaths from then until July 8th, which is the last date the state of Kansas updated their site. A large majority of those were early nursing home deaths in a couple of areas here. 

Since about May 16th, the most we have had in a day is 4. We are somewhere between 0 and 4 a day. 

As far as cases go, yes we saw a spike when things started opening up again, but from what I can tell deaths haven't followed that spike. 
Click to expand...
I included Kansas because cases are spiking

 
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