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Democrats Spending Time And Energy On Senate Trial (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

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To be super clear. I'm trying to understand here. This is not a comment on anyone or the topic. I'm trying to understand.

If I'm understanding right, most everyone, regardless of political leaning, expects Trump to survive the Senate trial and not be removed.

It'll be because the Republicans get to control the process and the vote will be along partisan lines. 

Right or wrong, that seems to be the practical reality. 

Is that fair to say?

If so, can the Anti Trump folks elaborate on why they're spending so much time and effort on this? Both maybe for the actual politicians but also for the regular citizens?

Is it a thing where you just do the right thing because it's the right thing? Like an attorney faithfully prosecuting a case he knows he will lose?

Is it more a thing where the hope is the process will cause damage to Trump and weaken his chances for re-election?

Other things?

I'm certainly not saying just play dead and let the "other" side do their thing. I'm just trying to understand how folks are seeing this and what they're hoping for. 

Thanks.

 
Is it a thing where you just do the right thing because it's the right thing? Like an attorney faithfully prosecuting a case he knows he will lose?
This is 100% my point of view.  You are right that I expect Trump to be acquitted along partisan lines, but I think it's important that Democrats do what they can to hold Trump accountable.  They're on the right side of history on this one IMO.

 
I’d say it’s mostly the two reasons you’ve already identified.  There also doesn’t seem to be much opportunity cost if any.  It’s not like they’re getting any legislation passed anyway.

 
This is 100% my point of view.  You are right that I expect Trump to be acquitted along partisan lines, but I think it's important that Democrats do what they can to hold Trump accountable.  They're on the right side of history on this one IMO.
:goodposting:

My thoughts exactly. 

 
This is 100% my point of view.  You are right that I expect Trump to be acquitted along partisan lines, but I think it's important that Democrats do what they can to hold Trump accountable.  They're on the right side of history on this one IMO.
Not just Trump but the Senators as well. Put them on record and force them to acquit Trump. Let their constituents see how the vote.

 
Say you’re the head coach of a below average college football team and next week you have to play Clemson or Alabama, one of the biggies, and you know you can’t play with that team, you know you’re going to get crushed. You still practice during the week, right? Still do all your drills, have a game plan, go out there and try to win. What else is there? 

 
Lawerence Tribe was on Anderson Cooper talking about how senators will be remembered by history. Even if the Senate successfully blocks witnesses, the truth will come out at some point. I would certainly want to be on the right side of history. 

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
I

Half a league, half a league,

Half a league onward,

All in the valley of Death

   Rode the six hundred.

“Forward, the Light Brigade!

Charge for the guns!” he said.

Into the valley of Death

   Rode the six hundred.

II

“Forward, the Light Brigade!”

Was there a man dismayed?

Not though the soldier knew

   Someone had blundered.

   Theirs not to make reply,

   Theirs not to reason why,

   Theirs but to do and die.

   Into the valley of Death

   Rode the six hundred.

III

Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon in front of them

   Volleyed and thundered;

Stormed at with shot and shell,

Boldly they rode and well,

Into the jaws of Death,

Into the mouth of hell

   Rode the six hundred.

IV

Flashed all their sabres bare,

Flashed as they turned in air

Sabring the gunners there,

Charging an army, while

   All the world wondered.

Plunged in the battery-smoke

Right through the line they broke;

Cossack and Russian

Reeled from the sabre stroke

   Shattered and sundered.

Then they rode back, but not

   Not the six hundred.

V

Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon behind them

   Volleyed and thundered;

Stormed at with shot and shell,

While horse and hero fell.

They that had fought so well

Came through the jaws of Death,

Back from the mouth of hell,

All that was left of them,

   Left of six hundred.

VI

When can their glory fade?

O the wild charge they made!

   All the world wondered.

Honour the charge they made!

Honour the Light Brigade,

   Noble six hundred!
Did they all die?

 
To be super clear. I'm trying to understand here. This is not a comment on anyone or the topic. I'm trying to understand.

If I'm understanding right, most everyone, regardless of political leaning, expects Trump to survive the Senate trial and not be removed.

It'll be because the Republicans get to control the process and the vote will be along partisan lines. 

Right or wrong, that seems to be the practical reality. 

Is that fair to say?

If so, can the Anti Trump folks elaborate on why they're spending so much time and effort on this? Both maybe for the actual politicians but also for the regular citizens?

Is it a thing where you just do the right thing because it's the right thing? Like an attorney faithfully prosecuting a case he knows he will lose?

Is it more a thing where the hope is the process will cause damage to Trump and weaken his chances for re-election?

Other things?

I'm certainly not saying just play dead and let the "other" side do their thing. I'm just trying to understand how folks are seeing this and what they're hoping for. 

Thanks.
Yes, because it’s the right thing to do. I keep hoping some republican senators search their consciences and vote accordingly. I’ll be amazed if there are no witnesses or evidence, and it goes along party lines for acquittal. And if it goes that way, yes, I would expect it should damage republicans in the next election as a result, but they seem to be banking on the idea that they can pummel the airwaves with their narrative loudly enough to keep public support. 

 
What are the Democrats doing for people in this country right now? Nothing, so they have no choice.
The Democratic Congress has passed over 400 bills that are sitting on Mitch McConnell's desk, 275 of those having bipartisan support, but McConnell refuses to bring them to a vote on the Senate floor, probably so that the Trump and GOP can keep calling them "Do Nothing Democrats". 

 
What are the Democrats doing for people in this country right now? Nothing, so they have no choice.
What legislation has McConnell unearthed from the tomb that is his desk in the past year and put forward? The Democrats are very flawed, but they're at least attempting to get the senate moving again.

 
To be super clear. I'm trying to understand here. This is not a comment on anyone or the topic. I'm trying to understand.

If I'm understanding right, most everyone, regardless of political leaning, expects Trump to survive the Senate trial and not be removed.

It'll be because the Republicans get to control the process and the vote will be along partisan lines. 

Right or wrong, that seems to be the practical reality. 

Is that fair to say?

If so, can the Anti Trump folks elaborate on why they're spending so much time and effort on this? Both maybe for the actual politicians but also for the regular citizens?

Is it a thing where you just do the right thing because it's the right thing? Like an attorney faithfully prosecuting a case he knows he will lose?

Is it more a thing where the hope is the process will cause damage to Trump and weaken his chances for re-election?

Other things?

I'm certainly not saying just play dead and let the "other" side do their thing. I'm just trying to understand how folks are seeing this and what they're hoping for. 

Thanks.
IMO the House chose to impeach over this impeachable offense over the myriad of other available impeachable offenses because it's an effort to cheat on the next election.  Most policy differences or profiteering can be undone by the next administration.  But the line got drawn here because the alternative remedy - the 2020 election - is in jeopardy because the President is trying to cheat in it.  

Let this one go, and you're saying it's OK if the President cheats in elections, and it's OK if the legislative branch is subservient to the executive branch, no longer co-equal.  So, gotta draw the line and impeach even if the other party is OK with cheating in elections and ceding power to the executive branch.    

 
This is 100% my point of view.  You are right that I expect Trump to be acquitted along partisan lines, but I think it's important that Democrats do what they can to hold Trump accountable.  They're on the right side of history on this one IMO.
I think theDemocrats are completely and obviously on the wrong side of history here.  They have submarined due process and used investigation as a means to cover up corruption.  They have investigated Trump for three years with no probable cause and have the audacity to launch an impeachment over the suggestion that somebody investigate a a Democrat for corruption that is plain to anybody with a lick of sense. One of the Articles of impeachment is to charge a high crime for raising executive privilege. It’s just absurd.  We have lived through the Clinton impeachment, a thousand Benghazi investigations, the Mueller fiasco...etc but this impeachment is the most partisan and wrong power grab in my lifetime.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
This is 100% my point of view.  You are right that I expect Trump to be acquitted along partisan lines, but I think it's important that Democrats do what they can to hold Trump accountable.  They're on the right side of history on this one IMO.
Bing.

Amused to Death said:
Not just Trump but the Senators as well. Put them on record and force them to acquit Trump. Let their constituents see how the vote.
Bang.

Drunken Cowboy said:
Lawerence Tribe was on Anderson Cooper talking about how senators will be remembered by history. Even if the Senate successfully blocks witnesses, the truth will come out at some point. I would certainly want to be on the right side of history. 
Boom.

 
The GOP brought impeachment accusations against Obama numerous times, knowing it was going nowhere. Seemed rather waste of time.   In this case, I think they are trying to extend the process to try and flip a few senators to allow witnesses and possibly to try and get some persuasion of public opinion for the election. 

 
Snorkelson said:
Yes, because it’s the right thing to do. I keep hoping some republican senators search their consciences and vote accordingly. I’ll be amazed if there are no witnesses or evidence, and it goes along party lines for acquittal. And if it goes that way, yes, I would expect it should damage republicans in the next election as a result, but they seem to be banking on the idea that they can pummel the airwaves with their narrative loudly enough to keep public support. 
Do you actually buy that the Democrats are doing this because it is "the right thing to do"? 

Also, politicians almost never vote with their conscience; they almost always vote based on self-interest and/or party lines, so I wouldn't expect the GOP to suddenly vote with their conscience.   

 
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Do you actually buy that the Democrats are doing this because it is "the right thing to do"? 

Also, politicians almost never vote with their conscience; they almost always vote based on self-interest and/or party lines, so I wouldn't expect the GOP to suddenly vote with their conscience.   
Impeachment is the right thing to do in this case.

By impeaching and bringing Trump’s confessed impeachable actions to trial, they are trying to push a few Senators to put their self-interest and party interest in conflict.  There’s a handful of GOP Senators whose seats are up for re-election and will have competitive races.  With an impeachment trial, they can put those Senators on record and decide if voting to not remove Trump is something worth losing their seat over.  If self-interest and party interest are in conflict, maybe their conscience breaks the tie.

 
it's the right thing to do, but they obviously want to make political hay with it by getting these guys on the record as not supporting a fair trial

 
Sam Quentin said:
I think theDemocrats are completely and obviously on the wrong side of history here.  They have submarined due process
"But due process!" will go onto the scrap heap of failed and forgotten Republican talking points, along with "Emails!", Benghazi!", "Kenya!", "terrorist fist bump!", "tan suit!" and dozens of other, ahem, false narratives.

 
Two reasons:

1. It is the right and proper thing to do;

2. Senators should have to go on record to fix this trial, and now they are forced to. That is also the right and proper thing to do. 

 
Several reasons:

A.  You can’t go down this path and then not go all in.  That would send the message you realized you were wrong and that’s it’s own disaster.

B.  Hope to drag Trump through the mud.  I’ve said it several times in several threads.  Schiff isn’t talking to the Senate.  He’s talking to voters.  They know how this ends.  They want the time to be used to hurt Trump as much as they can.

C.  They want to hurt the Republican Senators.  Everything they say is “The Senate is on trial.”  “If you acquit, you’re covering something up.”  They want to try to paint them into the corner and hope the voters remove them.

D.  With a different Senate, they can send new articles.  Multiple people have said they won’t stop if the Senate shoots this down.  If the Senate changes colors, they’ll try for another high crime or misdemeanor.

 
Drunken Cowboy said:
Lawerence Tribe was on Anderson Cooper talking about how senators will be remembered by history. Even if the Senate successfully blocks witnesses, the truth will come out at some point. I would certainly want to be on the right side of history. 
Bolton’s book will come out, the freedom of information act will see some of these documents released. Other witness will be interviewed and write books as well. All of the previous senate impeachment trials(15) have had witnesses testify. History will not treat Senate Republicans very kindly.  Democrats may be losing all these votes 53-47 but they are winning the argument when it comes to common sense. It doesn’t matter how many times White House lawyers repeat the same lies and talking points it does not make them facts. Adam Schiff is good, very good. To be fair the White House lawyers don’t have much to work with.

 
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Several reasons:

A.  You can’t go down this path and then not go all in.  That would send the message you realized you were wrong and that’s it’s own disaster.

B.  Hope to drag Trump through the mud.  I’ve said it several times in several threads.  Schiff isn’t talking to the Senate.  He’s talking to voters.  They know how this ends.  They want the time to be used to hurt Trump as much as they can.

C.  They want to hurt the Republican Senators.  Everything they say is “The Senate is on trial.”  “If you acquit, you’re covering something up.”  They want to try to paint them into the corner and hope the voters remove them.

D.  With a different Senate, they can send new articles.  Multiple people have said they won’t stop if the Senate shoots this down.  If the Senate changes colors, they’ll try for another high crime or misdemeanor.
If the Democrats pick up 3 or more seats in the Senate, Trump will lose in a landslide and it will be a moot point. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Is it a thing where you just do the right thing because it's the right thing? Like an attorney faithfully prosecuting a case he knows he will lose?

Is it more a thing where the hope is the process will cause damage to Trump and weaken his chances for re-election?
It's both, and I would guess the degree of which is prevalent varies from Senator to Senator.
Also, as mentioned above it's hard to see the downside from the Democratic perspective.
Polling is in favour of bringing witnesses and new evidence (even if some just mean Schiff and Biden)

And then it's up to the electorate to pass the verdict on either party ten months and a couple of weeks from now

 
IvanKaramazov said:
This is 100% my point of view.  You are right that I expect Trump to be acquitted along partisan lines, but I think it's important that Democrats do what they can to hold Trump accountable.  They're on the right side of history on this one IMO.
IMHO, it really does not show much principle in doing 'the right thing' when it is the other side.   If Democrats would have supported removing Clinton, that would have shown principle.  Clinton and Trump should have been/should be removed.  As is, there is no high road especially considering who the Dems nominated last time around.   I hope Trump does get removed out of principle. But if it does happen, it will be the Republicans who showed principle.  There should be little tolerance for abusing public positions.  

 
Do you actually buy that the Democrats are doing this because it is "the right thing to do"? 

Also, politicians almost never vote with their conscience; they almost always vote based on self-interest and/or party lines, so I wouldn't expect the GOP to suddenly vote with their conscience.   
I guess that depends on whose evidence you look at and agree with. Yes, I think Trump did all this stuff to help himself, and I think that, even if the republican controlled senate says beforehand that they will vote as a party to acquit, the right thing to do is put forth the mechanisms that would bring light to it. 

Let me be clear- I do not think this is simply to cast stones for re-election, although it will likely be used. What the president did was clear and egregious. His defense is “yeah but I can do whatever I want” - I just don’t see how so many people are ok with this. 

I’ll agree with your second point- most policy votes will be geared toward party affiliation or constituents voicing their opinion, but this is different. I mean, you can’t hear the evidence and then say “well, my voters love trump so “not guilty” even though he did it.” This is a trial, and I would hope they look at the case before them and  rule based on the facts, and do what they can to see all the facts before they rule. If they did that, force relevant documents to be produced, and at hear what the other people sitting in the administration  at the time have to say about it, etc and they acquit then so be it. At least we can see/hear from the people who were there.

If I were in court and had already been indicted by a grand jury and 1/2 the jury, before the trial starts says “we won’t hear any evidence that wasn’t presented  to the grand jury, and move to dismiss” everyone would be scratching their heads saying “the jury can’t do that.”

 
Id also like to point out that it’s absurd to say “let’s wait until the next election and see what the people say.” Imagine if we had a public vote for every conviction- it would not be good. You can’t count on every American to research and understand constitutional law, the evidence surrounding the case and what it means, etc. People are busy, ignorant, stupid, biased, liars, shady, greedy, all of these things. You’ll have groups disseminating misinformation, people who will shape the narrative to fit what outcome they want, people who won’t pay any attention, people who are incapable of understanding, and a defendant with the biggest soapbox to shout from. You’ll have people like Alan Dershowitz/Graham/McConnell- and all the dems who called Clinton’s impeachment an attack on the election, who will completely contradict their prior thoughts on constitutional law regarding impeachment based on who is in office. It’s disheartening.

 
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If I were a Senator I would drop all the partisan/hypocritical shaming and blaming and draft a speech along these lines....

During my lifetime we have witness the respect for and dignity for the office of the presidency substainially decline.  We have seen the IRS used to target political enemies.  We have seen the Lincoln Bedroom effectively rented out to gain funds for political campaigns.  We have seen questionable evidence used to help support a war.  We have seen a national emergency declared to finance a campaign promise which could not be advanced by Constitutional means.  We have seen countless acts of use of executive previledge to hide embarrassing political acts from being disclosed.   It is time to drop the partisan politics we have all been guilty of and say enough is enough.

Let us unite as a country.  Let us stand for the system of checks and balances our founding fathers in all of their vast wisdom put in our great Constitution.  Let us turn the page against the decades of partisan behavior and rhetoric which divides the country.  Let us drop our partisanship and  stand together against the abuse of power by our Presidents.  Let us join together and establish better expectations, transparency and accountability.  Let us restore the respect and dignity of the Oval Office.  Let us help heal the wounds and unite.  Let us execerise our Constitution duties and vote for restoring the principles of the country we all love.   

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Joe Bryant said:
Is it a thing where you just do the right thing because it's the right thing? Like an attorney faithfully prosecuting a case he knows he will lose?
This is 100% my point of view.  You are right that I expect Trump to be acquitted along partisan lines, but I think it's important that Democrats do what they can to hold Trump accountable.  They're on the right side of history on this one IMO.
Its the right thing to do exactly as IK said and it's the reason I (me, myself and I) want them to do it.  Is it why the Democrats are doing it?  I don't know.  The pessimist in me says they are doing this in an official capacity to document how low the bar should be set moving forward.  The pessimist in me says they are doing it to "win".  Personally, I think there are better ways to go about accomplishing that, but this is the path they've chosen and I do believe history will agree with them even if it doesn't produce the fruit of "winning" short term and we have Trump for another 4 years.  

 
Like many of you, we've been on this board for 20-25 years.  Since ol' yeller.  Really proud of the replies in this thread.  Holding ourselves and others accountable. Doing the right thing, especially when it's unpopular.  These are the times when character is revealed.  Thanks for keeping the faith guys. 

 
timschochet said:
Say you’re the head coach of a below average college football team and next week you have to play Clemson or Alabama, one of the biggies, and you know you can’t play with that team, you know you’re going to get crushed. You still practice during the week, right? Still do all your drills, have a game plan, go out there and try to win. What else is there? 
Money..Lots and lots of money

 
Sorry bu the whole "right side of history" thing makes me chuckle.    Emotional over rational.  Gets the democrats a lot these days.

This should have never gotten that far, censure him, move on.   There was never a question that the democrats would lose this, never.  

 
Sorry bu the whole "right side of history" thing makes me chuckle.    Emotional over rational.  Gets the democrats a lot these days.

This should have never gotten that far, censure him, move on.   There was never a question that the democrats would lose this, never.  
Not sure I understand this....you'd rather have emotional over rational?  The thing with history and that phrase is that it's a look back with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight devoid of the emotion that exists while living through the events.  Or to put it a better way, "history" in this case is an analysis of the events after the emotion has burned away :oldunsure:  

 
squistion said:
The Democratic Congress has passed over 400 bills that are sitting on Mitch McConnell's desk, 275 of those having bipartisan support, but McConnell refuses to bring them to a vote on the Senate floor, probably so that the Trump and GOP can keep calling them "Do Nothing Democrats". 
:own3d:

 
Not sure I understand this....you'd rather have emotional over rational?  The thing with history and that phrase is that it's a look back with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight devoid of the emotion that exists while living through the events.  Or to put it a better way, "history" in this case is an analysis of the events after the emotion has burned away :oldunsure:  
No.....Emotion drove this impeachment.  And it will fail. Not rational.

 
No.....Emotion drove this impeachment.  And it will fail. Not rational.
I get that this is one opinion of the day and a pretty good example of what I am talking about with history looking back at things vs perspective  in the here and now.  For example, impeachment has already been accomplished.  It's done.  History will always assert that Trump was impeached just like it asserts that Clinton was impeached.  Why?  Because it happened.  The "it will fail" part is certainly emotional at this point and will wither away with time.

 
No.....Emotion drove this impeachment.  And it will fail. Not rational.
Censure would be emotional...its a toothless thing.  His actions rose to a level higher than that.  And yes, pursuing those actions and finding out the truth is the right side of history.  Covering it up and putting fingers in the ears as the GOP is doing is not.

 
If the democrats hadn't spent time and energy on this the president probably wouldn't have tweeted that he was withholding evidence (no mention of whether exculpatory or incriminating)

 

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