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OPI Call On George Kittle In Super Bowl - Correct?

Was The OPI Call On George Kittle In Super Bowl Correct?  

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29 minutes ago, Tool said:

Not trying to pick a fight with those arguing for the penalty not to have been called but 1) as can see by poll results, the consensus which seems to be generally non-partisan is heavily tilted towards the call being correct and 2) This would've  been most likely a 3 point swing; I mean no one knows how the game would've played out but it was far from a game changing play.

Whatever was called on the Kittle play, whatever the call was on the field was going to stand on video review. IMO, it's not clearly OPI and it's not clearly NOT OPI. That's what happens sometimes when a ref sees something in the moment, in real time, as the play is happening. This play could have gone either way. SF fans can't argue whether Kittle pushed off . . . the debatable part is if he pushed off enough to draw a flag. Anyone that watches a fair amount of football has seen flags thrown for less . . . and plays where nothing was called for way worse.

But that one play is not what changed the game (yes, I know . . . who knows if the game would have played out the same). That play didn't cause the Niners to stumble in the 4th quarter. IMO, there were plenty of other reasons SF didn't end up winning the game . . . and this play was pretty far down the list.

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25 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Whatever was called on the Kittle play, whatever the call was on the field was going to stand on video review. IMO, it's not clearly OPI and it's not clearly NOT OPI. That's what happens sometimes when a ref sees something in the moment, in real time, as the play is happening. This play could have gone either way. SF fans can't argue whether Kittle pushed off . . . the debatable part is if he pushed off enough to draw a flag. Anyone that watches a fair amount of football has seen flags thrown for less . . . and plays where nothing was called for way worse.

But that one play is not what changed the game (yes, I know . . . who knows if the game would have played out the same). That play didn't cause the Niners to stumble in the 4th quarter. IMO, there were plenty of other reasons SF didn't end up winning the game . . . and this play was pretty far down the list.

Anarchy....value your opinion....but I guess I just don’t see how people can think that it was not OPI.....it was textbook officiating 101...but then again, so was the Rudolph play....so I guess that is kind of at the heart of the discussion here because now we know how there can be some inconsistencies in officiating since we all saw the same views of the play in here......yet we have some inconsistencies in here.....although I really feel a lot of the inconsistencies in here can be attributed to people “seeing” the play with their heart and fandom and how they would have “liked” to see the call go or not go.....but officials do not look at things through team colored glasses......officials won’t last very long if they do things like letting the Rudolph play affect how they call the Kittle play...they got it wrong on the Rudolph play.....but they got it right here...

KC fans (which I am one of) say it was obvious.....SF fans deep down know it was pretty obvious and by the letter of the rule should have been called, but they will dig deep to try and justify it “not” being called by comparing it to other things that weren’t called somewhere else.....I think even the most die hard SF fan will admit it was OPI, and I get the frustration....but if the only justification is “well they didn’t call it on Rudolph” or something like that ....that is pretty much weak sauce and something they need to get over.....

thats why I asked @efactor to give some other examples.....besides the Sanders play that he said there were more of....but haven’t heard back yet....because I think they got it right on the Kittle play but missed the Sanders one.....I don’t remember any others that were “much worse”....because I think he just spewed that out there with emotion and for affect but very little to back it up.....(but I was also super drunk so that could be a factor if I don’t remember some other “much worse” ones)....

Edited by Stinkin Ref
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3 hours ago, Yenrub said:

I’m sure Mike would have had a few catches, but he definitely wouldn’t be in the HOF

Mike takes the heat for it, but they all did it back then.  It's a constant arms race that adjusts to the way they call it......any slight advantage you can get without getting flagged

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1 minute ago, Stinkin Ref said:

Anarchy....value your opinion....but I guess I just don’t see how people can think that it was not OPI.....it was textbook officiating 101...but then again, so was the Rudolph play....so I guess that is kind of at the heart of the discussion here because now we know how there can be some inconsistencies in officiating since we all saw the same views of the play in here......yet we have some inconsistencies in here.....although I really feel a lot of the inconsistencies in here can be attributed to people “seeing” the play with their heart and fandom and how they would have “liked” to see the call go or not go.....but officials do not look at things through team colored glasses......officials won’t last very long if they do things like letting the Rudolph play affect how they call the Kittle play...

KC fans (which I am one of) say it was obvious.....SF fans deep down know it was pretty obvious and by the letter of the rule should have been called, but they will dig deep to try and justify it “not” being called by comparing it to other things that weren’t called somewhere else.....I think even the most die hard SF fan will admit it was OPI, and I get the frustration....but if the only justification is “well they didn’t call it on Rudolph” that is pretty much weak sauce and something they need to get over.....

I had zero rooting interest in either team. To me both the Kittle and Rudolph plays should have been called for OPI for pushing off (as outlined in the rules). However, I can see a case that based on the way individual games are called, that COULD factor into the decision to throw a flag or not. That's where the whole "letting them play" or "playoff officiating" enters into the discussion. 

But looking at JUST THAT PLAY in a vacuum, that was OPI. And looking JUST AT THE PLAY with Rudolph, that also was OPI. Yet one was called, and one was not. But if I were a ref, I would have called both plays DPI no matter what the situation, no matter at what point of the season, no matter what else was called in the game, and even if it was the last play of the game.

I struggle more basketball officiating (since my son plays). Not sure how a total mauling goes uncalled under the basket while a touch foul 60 feet from the basket on an innocent bump that did not have any bearing on possession of the ball gets called, seemingly every time.

In any event, congrats to all the Chiefs fans. 50 years is a long time to wait for a title. I am glad Reid finally won a ring after 21 years as a head coach (ignoring the year he won as an assistant in GB).

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2 hours ago, Tool said:

Not trying to pick a fight with those arguing for the penalty not to have been called but 1) as can see by poll results, the consensus which seems to be generally non-partisan is heavily tilted towards the call being correct and 2) This would've  been most likely a 3 point swing; I mean no one knows how the game would've played out but it was far from a game changing play.

I never said it was "game" changing, just that it shouldn't have been called IMO. Nobody knows how the game would have played out had they not called it of course.  The topic of the thread is was it OPI or not.

But to say it was "far" from game changing is debatable.  Unless Gould shanked a short one, it's at least 3 points and they had enough time to run a quick pass to try for a TD.  Definitely a big play in what ended up being a close game. Assuming they kicked a field goal and then the 2nd half played out exactly the same way (it wouldn't have but for the sake of argument), its a one point game there instead of a 4 point game.   

Anyway, I also have no issue with people having the opinion it was the right call.  But it sure wasn't a slam dunk penalty and some are acting like it was.

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37 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

so you're implying more people were rooting against sf? do you have a reason for this? any proof?

Yes, I have hired an outside company and they have substantial "proof" that a majority of people who took this poll were anti SF.  We investigated every vote and looked into their rooting interest for the game.  The poll is declared INVALID!  Case close and money well spent!

Or you could just say it was a very small sample size.  Not saying people were rooting against SF, but the vibe seems to be more people who weren't KC/SF homers were rooting for KC.  Andy Reid and Mahomes are likable guys.  To use a casual poll in a thread as "proof" the call was correct is kind of nonsensical.  I would think that being an educated man of medicine, you could grasp that.  Unless your title is only honorary, then it make sense that you couldn't. 

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45 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

can you give 1st half examples to backup this claim and support its correctness? 

Do your homework and look at all the plays were PI could have been called on both sides.  There are several throughout the game.  Not sure why you are only focusing on the first half.  The point is they let a lot of stuff go the whole game.  9 penalties total, only three of which were not offside, false starts or illegal formation, which are generally non debatable.  Of course they also didn't call an obvious offside and there were several false starts not called (again on both sides), so I guess some of the pre snap penalties are actually debatable or just incompetence.

OPI against SF, PI against SF and a holding call on a kickoff against KC.  Very few penalties, which I like.  OPI was not enough to draw a flag when you are letting them play.  

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17 hours ago, efactor said:

Well, not enough to call a penalty when they let much worse go the whole game.

@efactor....you are the one who said the above.....and since the Kittle play was before the half was over......we are simply asking that you give examples and show "your" work.....not tell other people to do their homework and look at all the plays.....by your quote you obviously have some, so please tell us besides the Sanders play which ones they were......you are dodging giving examples after making a statement....if you got caught saying something that you can't support that is fine.....own it and move on.....or else give examples of "much worse the whole game"...which up to that point means first half....

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45 minutes ago, efactor said:

Do your homework and look at all the plays were PI could have been called on both sides.  There are several throughout the game.  Not sure why you are only focusing on the first half.  The point is they let a lot of stuff go the whole game.  9 penalties total, only three of which were not offside, false starts or illegal formation, which are generally non debatable.  Of course they also didn't call an obvious offside and there were several false starts not called (again on both sides), so I guess some of the pre snap penalties are actually debatable or just incompetence.

OPI against SF, PI against SF and a holding call on a kickoff against KC.  Very few penalties, which I like.  OPI was not enough to draw a flag when you are letting them play.  

ok...I looked.... I didn't see any....please tell me which ones I missed...otherwise you are just writing checks you can't cash and it ends up sounding like whining by a losing fan....

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43 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

Ah yes, when you've run out of arguements question my degree. Since you implied a question, let me say the degree is very real. Which is why I'm asking the question I am asking. While this isnt a peer reviewed double blind study, it's a poll. It's silly to assume just because people voted Yes to the call that they were rooting for KC. I could easily flip it and say it's obvious to me that most of these poll respondents must have been logical SF fans because SF was the under dog and most people without a vested interest root for the under dog. I know, crazy of me to put logical and SF in the same sentence. Equally crazy: saying most people were rooting for KC. 

I would like to see proof. A copy of your degree will suffice

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It was OPI. It was called. Other stuff wasn't. Hill's knee was down at the 40 when he juked Sherman out of his jock. 

Kpassagnon wasn't offsides...Person rocked. Neither was called. Jimmy getting pushed OB to avoid a Mahomes-lile play was legit. Good no call.

Sanders probably should have had DPI.

Both QBs took unnecessary shots to the head by hands, helmets, etc.

Stuff gets missed. Whistles get swallowed (like on the Delay of Game call). Judgments are made.

In the end, it was a well-played game, and no one call or non-call could be deemed a game changer. 

Just enjoy it for the entertaining matchup that it was!

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3 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Whatever was called on the Kittle play, whatever the call was on the field was going to stand on video review. IMO, it's not clearly OPI and it's not clearly NOT OPI. That's what happens sometimes when a ref sees something in the moment, in real time, as the play is happening. This play could have gone either way. SF fans can't argue whether Kittle pushed off . . . the debatable part is if he pushed off enough to draw a flag. Anyone that watches a fair amount of football has seen flags thrown for less . . . and plays where nothing was called for way worse.

But that one play is not what changed the game (yes, I know . . . who knows if the game would have played out the same). That play didn't cause the Niners to stumble in the 4th quarter. IMO, there were plenty of other reasons SF didn't end up winning the game . . . and this play was pretty far down the list.

100% agree.  I personally hate the NFL reviewing PI calls.  It's been a huge failure.  

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3 hours ago, SEA425 said:

Not surprised efactor is the one in here showing his rear end. 

Huh

I just chimed in on a thread specifically about one call,  expressing my opinion.  I was told by two different people that my OPINION was wrong, because the call was so obvious.  If the call was so obvious, whey did the leader of this site start a thread on it?  

Not sure how that equates to showing my "rear end" 😕

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3 hours ago, Stinkin Ref said:

ok...I looked.... I didn't see any....please tell me which ones I missed...otherwise you are just writing checks you can't cash and it ends up sounding like whining by a losing fan....

Look again 

Also look at the original post on the subject.  Not whining about anything.  Just expressed my opinion that the contact didn't warrant a flag when the league has not been calling that penalty.  Never said it cost them the game.  

You sound like a democrat now.  I want your opinion as long as you agree with me! 

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2 hours ago, ILUVBEER99 said:

100% agree.  I personally hate the NFL reviewing PI calls.  It's been a huge failure.  

I agree with this too.  

Slows the game down and it has to be a mugging for them to overturn. Terrible to review PI. 

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4 hours ago, efactor said:

Look again 

Also look at the original post on the subject.  Not whining about anything.  Just expressed my opinion that the contact didn't warrant a flag when the league has not been calling that penalty.  Never said it cost them the game.  

You sound like a democrat now.  I want your opinion as long as you agree with me! 

I didn’t see any....please tell me which ones I missed....you said there were some that were much worse before the Kittle play...which ones were they.....?

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Based on the rules and how the refs called PI this year, it's the correct call.  But it's close.  I could easily see that penalty not called.  

I think we're only talking about it because it likely took 3 points off the board for SF.

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24 minutes ago, fightingillini said:

Based on the rules and how the refs called PI this year, it's the correct call.  But it's close.  I could easily see that penalty not called.  

I think we're only talking about it because it likely took 3 points off the board for SF.

Here's the thing . . . if the refs DON'T call it OPI, then we would have the same thread in reverse. There would be a thread on if the OPI Non-Call On George Kittle In Super Bowl Was Correct. That's the nature of individual rules interpretation by each official. I think it would be interesting if they started having cameras on the heads of officials. That way we could actually see exactly what the refs saw. I am sure plays look entirely different from the playing field in real time than they do from high above with 22 cameras, multiple angles, and super slo-mo to see the play over and over on replay.

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https://twitter.com/i/status/1224137389842386944

Defender started hooking kittle's arm a little earlier in the route.  It was marginal and could have gone either way. Because of the contact throughout the play, I'd say no call.  A case could be made for defensive holding/DPI as well.

 

We had the two elite TE's facing off.  Should we go back and review all of their routes and see how many times we have penalties on their plays? How many other plays should be called back?

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On 2/5/2020 at 9:06 AM, Anarchy99 said:

Here's the thing . . . if the refs DON'T call it OPI, then we would have the same thread in reverse. There would be a thread on if the OPI Non-Call On George Kittle In Super Bowl Was Correct. That's the nature of individual rules interpretation by each official. I think it would be interesting if they started having cameras on the heads of officials. That way we could actually see exactly what the refs saw. I am sure plays look entirely different from the playing field in real time than they do from high above with 22 cameras, multiple angles, and super slo-mo to see the play over and over on replay.

:goodposting:

this x100....

1. we most definitely would be whistling the opposite tune if it wasn't called and led to points....same complaint different direction

2. I started officiating sports in 1993....then when my kids got older I also started watching from the bleachers.....it made me realize why fans yell sometimes.....you see a different game from 30 rows up above at mid court then you do from 10 feet away from a play....it was kind of weird...you are like "how can they make that call".....but I have also been 10 feet away and know exactly "why I made that call"....

3. while all the camera angles pretty much give you every look a ref might have.....officials like in the Kittle play are focused in at live speed.....they are trained to look for things....and one of the biggest ones is to look for advantage/disadvantage......if something happens but  the players were able to play through it with no real advantage in either direction they will often "pass" on the call....but if they see a "key" (which in this case is an arm extended and pushing off creating space) it almost an automatic....because as we all know....at full speed, it doesn't take much to displace somebody and gain a huge advantage.....think on a rebound when a guy jumps in the air, the slightest little push from the other guy can send that jumper under the basket allowing the second guy to get the rebound....

Kittle gained an advantage....he felt he needed to create the space.....if he didn't want a penalty he shouldn't have extended his arm and pushed off...he thought he could get away with it, and sometimes they do (Rudolph).....but this time he didn't....

Edited by Stinkin Ref

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32 minutes ago, Drunken knight said:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1224137389842386944

Defender started hooking kittle's arm a little earlier in the route.  It was marginal and could have gone either way. Because of the contact throughout the play, I'd say no call.  A case could be made for defensive holding/DPI as well.

 

We had the two elite TE's facing off.  Should we go back and review all of their routes and see how many times we have penalties on their plays? How many other plays should be called back?

lol.....if you noticed when the defender "started hooking his arm" early in the route it is because Kittle put it there.....he put it out towards the defenders mid section and was already trying to use it to create space.....why is he putting his arm back towards the defender...?.......then he pushes off again.....this actually almost helps those who agree with the call....lol.....Kittle actually initiates whatever contact there is....no holding or DPI

Edited by Stinkin Ref

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1 hour ago, Stinkin Ref said:

lol.....if you noticed when the defender "started hooking his arm" early in the route it is because Kittle put it there.....he put it out towards the defenders mid section and was already trying to use it to create space.....why is he putting his arm back towards the defender...?.......then he pushes off again.....this actually almost helps those who agree with the call....lol.....Kittle actually initiates whatever contact there is....no holding or DPI

I saw that a little bit differently than yourself.  I thought the initial contact was virtually simultaneous, with the defender immediately starting to grab, slowing down kittle. To me, the grab seemed more egregious than the actions taken by kittle.

My bigger point is that I believe this exists with almost every pass play and was a curious time to call it. 

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1 hour ago, Drunken knight said:

I saw that a little bit differently than yourself.  I thought the initial contact was virtually simultaneous, with the defender immediately starting to grab, slowing down kittle. To me, the grab seemed more egregious than the actions taken by kittle.

My bigger point is that I believe this exists with almost every pass play and was a curious time to call it. 

why is Kittle putting his arm backward into the mid section of the defender......?....when he is running away from him in the opposite direction...?.....it wasn't like the defender was grabbing his arm and pulling it back....Kittle puts it back and creates that initial contact...if he doesn't put it back there and just keeps running his route forward there is no contact.....

I'll answer.....to create space both times.....which he ended up doing....Kittle would even probably tell you this....

Edited by Stinkin Ref
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9 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

why is Kittle putting him arm backward into the mid section of the defender......?....when he is running away from him in the opposite direction...?.....it wasn't like the defender was grabbing his arm and pulling it back....Kittle puts it back and creates that initial contact...if he doesn't put it back there and just keeps running his route forward there is no contact.....

I'll answer.....to create space both times.....which he ended up doing....Kittle would even probably tell you this....

I saw the initial contact akin to a defender in basketball putting a hand on an offensive player to get a feel for where the player is. We see this on every pass play.

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5 minutes ago, Drunken knight said:

I saw the initial contact akin to a defender in basketball putting a hand on an offensive player to get a feel for where the player is. We see this on every pass play.

if you want to call the initial contact "hand fighting" that you see on every play...ok maybe.....but don't then call it more "egregious" on the defender when Kittle is the one sticking it back there and initiating it "to get a feel".....the second push off was the big one anyway....and its a no brainer

to be honest.....he would have been better off just slowing down and letting Sorenson run into him as the ball is arriving....

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42 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

if you want to call the initial contact "hand fighting" that you see on every play...ok maybe.....but don't then call it more "egregious" on the defender when Kittle is the one sticking it back there and initiating it "to get a feel"

 

grabbing and hooking is certainly more egregious than "hand fighting" 

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4 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Here's the thing . . . if the refs DON'T call it OPI, then we would have the same thread in reverse. There would be a thread on if the OPI Non-Call On George Kittle In Super Bowl Was Correct. That's the nature of individual rules interpretation by each official. I think it would be interesting if they started having cameras on the heads of officials. That way we could actually see exactly what the refs saw. I am sure plays look entirely different from the playing field in real time than they do from high above with 22 cameras, multiple angles, and super slo-mo to see the play over and over on replay.

That's fair.  We're seeing it from the high camera, and from that angle it's pretty clear that Kittle pushed off to create some separation.  Definitely could be harder to see that on the field at a a certain angle.

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13 minutes ago, Drunken knight said:

grabbing and hooking is certainly more egregious than "hand fighting" 

omg.....ok....so even though Kittle has to go out of his way to stick his hand behind him "to only get a basketball feel" and create the contact/hand fighting and opportunity to get "grabbed and hooked" (those are your words, I would not call it grabbing and hooking)......that doesn't matter.....since he is "only getting a basketball feel"..... that doesn't count for anything....lol....

Kittle literally creates the initial contact by sticking his arm into Sorensons gut, then Sorenson puts his arm on top of Kitttles backwards outstretched arm that is in his gut to kind of knock it off of him.....they separate and then Kittle goes back in for seconds/leftovers and pushes off on the shoulder which ultimately draws the flag....

Kittle created the contact both times on that play.....and had to go out of his way (backwards) to do it....you can't even really argue that.....

 

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The Kyle Rudolph non-call in New Orleans and the George Kittle OPI call in the Super Bowl were (basically) the same type of play.  NFL officiating just isn't consistent.

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39 minutes ago, trader jake said:

The Kyle Rudolph non-call in New Orleans and the George Kittle OPI call in the Super Bowl were (basically) the same type of play.  NFL officiating just isn't consistent.

I haven't officiated football but I've officiated basketball and I'll tell you this: The idea that officiating can ever be consistent comes from people who've never tried it.

Pass interference is a lot like block/charge in basketball. You have to make a call in the moment. You only have the viewing angle you have, you have to make the call in real time, and the rules are intentionally fuzzy (some contact is allowed). Very clearly, there are plays of the Kittle OPI nature which aren't called. There are other plays which are less egregious which are called, especially against the defense. The fact that officiating is inconsistent is baked into the game; you just have to deal with it.

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1 hour ago, CalBear said:

I haven't officiated football but I've officiated basketball and I'll tell you this: The idea that officiating can ever be consistent comes from people who've never tried it.

Pass interference is a lot like block/charge in basketball. You have to make a call in the moment. You only have the viewing angle you have, you have to make the call in real time, and the rules are intentionally fuzzy (some contact is allowed). Very clearly, there are plays of the Kittle OPI nature which aren't called. There are other plays which are less egregious which are called, especially against the defense. The fact that officiating is inconsistent is baked into the game; you just have to deal with it.

To go way off on a tangent, my son plays HS basketball and was involved in 5 blocking / charging plays in the same game this week and IMO they got them all wrong. The first one he was driving and got blatantly shoved in the back and pushed into the defender. But the ref was screened out of the play and only saw the defender getting run into. Should have been free throws for fouled in the act of shooting, but it was called an offensive foul. The second one he again drove to the basket and the defender started flopping before he even got there. He made the lay up (which was waived off) but took another charge. Except he shuffled his feet before he ran into the kid and it should have been a travel.

On defense, he had a play where he stood motionless with his arms straight up and the kid on offense elbowed him in the head as he tried to jump over him. They called that one a block. The fourth one he was on defense again and there was definitely a foul, but instead of a block they called it a reach in. It should have been an And One, but they waived off the basket and called it a foul before the shot and ball out of bounds.

IMO, the last one was the clearest cut textbook definition of charging. He drove into the lane with three defenders in the paint and rammed right into them with seconds to go in the game. The ball went in and they called a block and he made the free throw and his team won the game because of it. But to me, that one was the easiest call to make and they called the opposite.

I have no interest in being a referee and believe it is a thankless job, but when the same refs tend to miss the same play multiple times in the same game it gets tough to watch.

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4 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

FWIW I was shocked Rudolph's OPI wasnt reviewed. Everyone was celebrating and shaking hands while I'm waiting for the refs to say its under review.... never happened. 

ETA- I know all scoring plays are reviewed, but I am not certain on if those reviews include review for challengeable penalties or just did he catch the ball and have 2 feet down

If I remember correctly, the NFL said the play was looked at in the box and they said there wasn't enough to go to a full review.  The play was "reviewed" even if it wasn't sent down for review.  I am not sure the difference or if it matters but it was looked at by the replay official and deemed not egregious enough to need additional review.

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I don't think pass interference is a judgement call.  I think it's pretty clear what is and what isn't.  Send me any play you question and I'll give you the answer.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I think it's a matter of what angles officials have and what they can see from the field in real time.

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36 minutes ago, zed2283 said:

I don't think pass interference is a judgement call.  I think it's pretty clear what is and what isn't.  Send me any play you question and I'll give you the answer.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I think it's a matter of what angles officials have and what they can see from the field in real time.

Sure, by letter of the law it is not a judgement call.  However, in reality it is treated as a judgement call on whether or not an advantage was gained either way before the ball arrives.

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1 hour ago, Gally said:

Sure, by letter of the law it is not a judgement call.  However, in reality it is treated as a judgement call on whether or not an advantage was gained either way before the ball arrives.

The angle matters a lot. Note that on this call, the ref is on the inside of the play and Kittle is pushing off with his inside arm; he's looking right at it. If the ref were on the other side of the play where he has to see through both bodies and the arms in between, it probably wouldn't get called. 

It's similar to the Darrell Jackson play from Super Bowl XL; the ref was standing right behind him, he pushed off with the back hand, and it got called. That play was even less of a push than Kittle's but it was even more visible.

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19 hours ago, trader jake said:

The Kyle Rudolph non-call in New Orleans and the George Kittle OPI call in the Super Bowl were (basically) the same type of play.  NFL officiating just isn't consistent.

Maybe the officials learned from that play.  Do we want consistency or improvement?

Different officials have different lines for penalties to cross.  We try thru film to be consistent but in our group meetings we could play some of these interference plays and half the room will have foul and half will have no foul.

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17 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

To go way off on a tangent, my son plays HS basketball and was involved in 5 blocking / charging plays in the same game this week and IMO they got them all wrong. The first one he was driving and got blatantly shoved in the back and pushed into the defender. But the ref was screened out of the play and only saw the defender getting run into. Should have been free throws for fouled in the act of shooting, but it was called an offensive foul. The second one he again drove to the basket and the defender started flopping before he even got there. He made the lay up (which was waived off) but took another charge. Except he shuffled his feet before he ran into the kid and it should have been a travel.

On defense, he had a play where he stood motionless with his arms straight up and the kid on offense elbowed him in the head as he tried to jump over him. They called that one a block. The fourth one he was on defense again and there was definitely a foul, but instead of a block they called it a reach in. It should have been an And One, but they waived off the basket and called it a foul before the shot and ball out of bounds.

IMO, the last one was the clearest cut textbook definition of charging. He drove into the lane with three defenders in the paint and rammed right into them with seconds to go in the game. The ball went in and they called a block and he made the free throw and his team won the game because of it. But to me, that one was the easiest call to make and they called the opposite.

I have no interest in being a referee and believe it is a thankless job, but when the same refs tend to miss the same play multiple times in the same game it gets tough to watch.

Some areas have such an official shortage that these could be 1st year officials.  Guess what, they will be inconsistent. 

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23 minutes ago, brettdj said:

Some areas have such an official shortage that these could be 1st year officials.  Guess what, they will be inconsistent. 

That would make sense if that was the case. Not where we live. All the refs have been doing it for years. All in their 50’s and 60’s. My wife asked me the other day why are the refs all ancient and don’t they ever use younger refs. My biggest basketball officiating pet peeve will always be tons of contact under the basket = play on. But a player grazes someone or gets a fingertip on a guy 60 feet from the basket that had no impact on possession or the play = insta foul call. 

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On 2/6/2020 at 12:29 PM, CalBear said:

I haven't officiated football but I've officiated basketball and I'll tell you this: The idea that officiating can ever be consistent comes from people who've never tried it.

Pass interference is a lot like block/charge in basketball. You have to make a call in the moment. You only have the viewing angle you have, you have to make the call in real time, and the rules are intentionally fuzzy (some contact is allowed). Very clearly, there are plays of the Kittle OPI nature which aren't called. There are other plays which are less egregious which are called, especially against the defense. The fact that officiating is inconsistent is baked into the game; you just have to deal with it.

Agree in general, but an offensive player holding off a defender with their arm is about as cut and dried as it gets.  So, which way is it?  Same with hits to the quarterback's head.  The officials call it one way all season long...then abandon it altogether in the Super Bowl?  Okay.  Same with the catch rule in the Philly/NE Super Bowl a few years ago.  It's not a lack of officiating experience by on-line voices...it's ineptitude by the NFL.

 

5 hours ago, brettdj said:

Maybe the officials learned from that play.  Do we want consistency or improvement?

Different officials have different lines for penalties to cross.  We try thru film to be consistent but in our group meetings we could play some of these interference plays and half the room will have foul and half will have no foul.

It's not an either or decision.  The NFL should strive for both.  Too often they seem complacent.  Which is why upstart leagues like the AAF and XFL are great for NFL fans.  They drive innovation and push the NFL to make meaningful changes to their rulebook.

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the thing that keeps going over some of your heads maybe... refs are not robots and "NFL should xyz" means next to nothing without officiating being done by robots. When you go to work, is everyone at your workplace top notch performers? I'd guess no. In most places it's the top 10% carrying everyone else in terms of productivity. same here. and NFL has strived to improve, but that means more rules that they can't enforce. it's like tax laws. what's the point of having a million tax laws if it can't be uniformly enforced?

at this point it's a dead horse situation. no one on this thread is wrong and i sincerely mean that. and i for one hope people can accept these inconsistencies as part of the game because i'm not sure I care for a sporting world, in any sport, where these judgement calls are completely eliminated. That's called Madden.

i mean, what else would we talk about if things like this never happened?

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