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timschochet

The Democrats need to wake up! Update: And near the last second, THEY HAVE

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1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I think you are right if the Presidential nominee gets to choose his or her running mate.  But @KiddLattimer specified that the ticket would be from a "split convention."  In that scenario, the nominee might have to team up with one of the other candidates with a bunch of delegates just to get the nomination in the first place.

Sorry to disappoint all the political junkies who pray every night that they will one day get to see a brokered convention, but such a scenario would be an absolute disaster for the party. Can't find the link, but I think it was Ed Kilgore who wrote a piece in 2016 explaining how such a convention would actually work from a logistical point of view. Basically, it would take what has traditionally been a four-day infomercial and turn it into a divisive spectacle with no one really in charge and inevitable bruised feelings once a winner was declared.

What that means is this: Once a plurality leader emerges, there will be tremendous pressure for everyone to get on board with that person. Let's say you're a moderate who's incredibly skeptical of Bernie's chances. In what might otherwise be a 50/50 election, you think Bernie only has a 35% chance to win. But if you support a contested convention, with the goal of wresting the nomination away from him and giving it to Biden or Bloomberg, you're going to royally tick off all the Bernie supporters, and ensure that the eventual nominee's chances are way south of 35%.

Trump 2016 offers a perfect example. Lots of GOP power brokers assumed he was a goner. But they also recognized he was still their best bet relative to some cockamamie plot to unbind the delegates and engineer a Ted Cruz nomination. And they were right.

What's more, such a scenario is even less likely this year, when the entire party recognizes that the country faces an existential threat in Trump (even moreso than in 2016, when Trump was seen as a sure loser). The pressure to unify well in advance of the convention will be overwhelming.

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4 hours ago, timschochet said:

Then there’s the behavior of the Bernie supporters in 2016- 15-20% of them voted for Trump. Wilson calls them arsonists and I think that’s pretty accurate. Many others just stayed home. Some of the celebrities stated publicly that there would be no difference between Trump and Hillary- that includes Susan Sarandon who said that loudly outside of the convention to every tv camera she could find. Wonder if she still feels that way? 

Some important context here is that Sanders supporters voted for Hillary at the same rate Hillary supporters voted for Obama in 2008. In an election decided by 70k votes it’s easy to pin the loss on a number of groups, but Sanders supporters were not especially sore losers.

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37 minutes ago, zftcg said:

Not weighing into the "socialism" semantic debate, but one of my biggest pet peeves is people who complain about "I could care less". Hey, schmedrick, you're not actually confused when you hear that, because there is literally only one meaning to that phrase, and everyone knows it. You're just being super-pedantic in order to try to show off your supposed intelligence.

The point of language isn't to slavishly follow rules. The point is to be understood. Unless someone's language is confusing, I don't wanna hear any complaints about it.

[OK, rant over. Back to our regularly scheduled discussion.]

 

I reckon this is going to make you hate me but I have to disagree on this one. Of course I know what a person means when they say "I could care less." But its like nails on a chalkboard to me because it doesn't make any sense. They are literally saying something that is the opposite of what they are trying to convey.

Unless the person is a good friend, I won't correct them. But its very grating to hear someone say something that is nonsensical. 

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1 minute ago, zftcg said:

Sorry to disappoint all the political junkies who pray every night that they will one day get to see a brokered convention, but such a scenario would be an absolute disaster for the party. Can't find the link, but I think it was Ed Kilgore who wrote a piece in 2016 explaining how such a convention would actually work from a logistical point of view. Basically, it would take what has traditionally been a four-day infomercial and turn it into a divisive spectacle with no one really in charge and inevitable bruised feelings once a winner was declared.

What that means is this: Once a plurality leader emerges, there will be tremendous pressure for everyone to get on board with that person. Let's say you're a moderate who's incredibly skeptical of Bernie's chances. In what might otherwise be a 50/50 election, you think Bernie only has a 35% chance to win. But if you support a contested convention, with the goal of wresting the nomination away from him and giving it to Biden or Bloomberg, you're going to royally tick off all the Bernie supporters, and ensure that the eventual nominee's chances are way south of 35%.

Trump 2016 offers a perfect example. Lots of GOP power brokers assumed he was a goner. But they also recognized he was still their best bet relative to some cockamamie plot to unbind the delegates and engineer a Ted Cruz nomination. And they were right.

What's more, such a scenario is even less likely this year, when the entire party recognizes that the country faces an existential threat in Trump (even moreso than in 2016, when Trump was seen as a sure loser). The pressure to unify well in advance of the convention will be overwhelming.

I'm not completely convinced.  Hillary's 4 day infomercial was slickly produced, professional quality, had some engaging speakers, and nobody cared.  I think people would actually watch a contested convention.  I don't know for sure that eyeballs = votes, but I'm not entirely convinced that having a genuinely interesting convention with an outcome in doubt would doom the party.

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22 minutes ago, whoknew said:

 

I reckon this is going to make you hate me but I have to disagree on this one. Of course I know what a person means when they say "I could care less." But its like nails on a chalkboard to me because it doesn't make any sense. They are literally saying something that is the opposite of what they are trying to convey.

Is it like that for you every time someone is sarcastic?   That's no way to live. 

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3 minutes ago, whoknew said:

I reckon this is going to make you hate me but I have to disagree on this one. Of course I know what a person means when they say "I could care less." But its like nails on a chalkboard to me because it doesn't make any sense. They are literally saying something that is the opposite of what they are trying to convey.

Unless the person is a good friend, I won't correct them. But its very grating to hear someone say something that is nonsensical. 

Nah, I don't hate you. It's not the belief that bothers me, it's the smarmy way people always explain it, like "I'm going to let you in on a little secret that only I know." Did you ever have one of those math teachers (and they were always math teachers) who would say, "Can you go to the bathroom? I sure hope you are capable of doing so. The question is may you?" It's the exact same tone.

BTW, if it bothers you so much, just think of it as sarcasm. Does it bother you if someone says, "Fat chance"? Because that also means the exact opposite of what it sounds like. 

OK, rant really over this time.

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2 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Is it like that for you every time someone is sarcastic?   That's no way to live. 

Yes.

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5 hours ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

What term should I use if I want an expanded social safety net along the lines of what they have in most of Western Europe?

Try "Doesn't Work".

That's funny that you imply that's ALL that Sanders wants to do.  Socialists don't stop until they have all of your money.  

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5 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Try "Doesn't Work".

That's funny that you imply that's ALL that Sanders wants to do.  Socialists don't stop until they have all of your money.  

I'm not implying anything I'm just trying to understand your point of view.  I agree with the views that Bernie espouses.  You seem to think that there's also un underlying unstated agenda to "democratic socialists" that they don't speak openly about it.  I don't have a secret unstated agenda, I just want single payer health care and government subsidized child care and stuff like that.  If calling myself a democratic socialist implies I want something else, I want to use a different term that is more appropriate.  What is that term?

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13 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I'm not implying anything I'm just trying to understand your point of view.  I agree with the views that Bernie espouses.  You seem to think that there's also un underlying unstated agenda to "democratic socialists" that they don't speak openly about it.  I don't have a secret unstated agenda, I just want single payer health care and government subsidized child care and stuff like that.  If calling myself a democratic socialist implies I want something else, I want to use a different term that is more appropriate.  What is that term?

Again, Democratic Socialism is not a thing.  🙄

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21 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I'm not implying anything I'm just trying to understand your point of view.  I agree with the views that Bernie espouses.  You seem to think that there's also un underlying unstated agenda to "democratic socialists" that they don't speak openly about it.  I don't have a secret unstated agenda, I just want single payer health care and government subsidized child care and stuff like that.  If calling myself a democratic socialist implies I want something else, I want to use a different term that is more appropriate.  What is that term?

Compassionate capitalist?

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23 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I'm not implying anything I'm just trying to understand your point of view.  I agree with the views that Bernie espouses.  You seem to think that there's also un underlying unstated agenda to "democratic socialists" that they don't speak openly about it.  I don't have a secret unstated agenda, I just want single payer health care and government subsidized child care and stuff like that.  If calling myself a democratic socialist implies I want something else, I want to use a different term that is more appropriate.  What is that term?

"Social Democracy" is not to be confused with "Democratic Socialism." I think you want the first one.

You might also want the Nordic model.

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2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Done!

We have NUMEROUS safety nets and programs already.

Of course we do, but we could use more.

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2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Until everyone has no money?  

Why would everyone have no money?  I'm not proposing a tube that sucks money into outer space as one of the social safety nets.

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23 minutes ago, Dickies said:

Why would everyone have no money?  I'm not proposing a tube that sucks money into outer space as one of the social safety nets.

That's exactly what's being proposed in theory!

😁

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44 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

That's exactly what's being proposed in theory!

😁

No, it's not.  Weren't you the one getting upset by hyperbole?

When it comes to military spending I often hear that it creates jobs as a justification.  Why do think the government providing daycare services for working families, expanding our education system, or guaranteeing healthcare to all citizens would not do the same?  

The Republicans' own healthcare study showed universal healthcare would save us money.

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"Hell no I don't want my taxes raised to pay for healthcare!" <Pays $15,000 a year to Anthem/Aetna/whoever for them to immediately deny any claim until you call and contest it>

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2 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

Until everyone has no money?  

These programs have multipliers that return more money to the economy than they take out.   Unlike tax cuts for the rich and military spending (when unemployment is south of 12% or so) which simply sucks money out of the economy. 

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James Carville is mad about what the Democrats are debating and who they are supporting. 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/02/09/james_carville_has_an_intervention_for_democratic_party_the_idea_of_a_political_party_is_to_win_elections.html

While I agree with him supporting a candidate like Senator Bennet who is polling about 1% isn’t how you win elections. Don’t get me wrong, I like Bennet but he looks like someone who needs to drop out.

Edited by lazyike

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17 hours ago, The Commish said:
18 hours ago, parasaurolophus said:

Democratic socialism and socialism both call for public ownership of the means of production. 

Socialism does not call for an authoritarian form of government. Communism does. 

Telling people that democratic socialism and socialism are very different is basically is misleading. Especially when the most common resources to look up the terms and the website for the DSOA basically list the definitions as almost identical. 

The better explanation or counter argument to people bringing up venezuela or ussr would be to point out how those countries dont have collective ownership, not to say that socialism and democratic socialism are very different. 

Am I to assume then that you reject Bernie referring to himself as any type of socialist as well as reject the label when applied to the proposals of Bernie, Liz, AOC etc? :oldunsure: 

Bump....it seems like we're already down the "it's a transcript / not a transcript" rabbit hole with others in this thread, but you seem even keeled...just wanted to see if you agreed and we're on the same page here.  In your opinion, is it appropriate that Bernie is even labeling himself as he is given the definitions of the words.  FWIW, I agree that it's not appropriate as it's not really socialism is defined.

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15 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Bump....it seems like we're already down the "it's a transcript / not a transcript" rabbit hole with others in this thread, but you seem even keeled...just wanted to see if you agreed and we're on the same page here.  In your opinion, is it appropriate that Bernie is even labeling himself as he is given the definitions of the words.  FWIW, I agree that it's not appropriate as it's not really socialism is defined.

I apologize, i missed your post somehow. 

I reject it as a criticism for everybody that doesnt refer to themself as a socialist. 

But for Bernie, AOC, and Tlaib they declare it. They are adults. They know the darn well the meaning of the word there is a reason they picked it and have doubled down on it. 

AOC and Tlaib are even card carrying members of DSA. 

But if we want to get more specific i reject it as a criticism of things like medicare for all, food stamps, and minimum wages(to a point)

I do not reject it as a criticism of things like you dont make a billion dollars, you take a billion dollars...so lets wealth tax the heck out of you. 

 

 

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Looks like many Democrats are in fact waking up. 

Klobuchar is surging. Bloomberg has picked up heavy black support. Things are starting to happen. 

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Looks like many Democrats are in fact waking up. 

Klobuchar is surging. Bloomberg has picked up heavy black support. Things are starting to happen. 

In the end this will remind me of when the college all-stars used to play the Super Bowl champion. 

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19 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

In the end this will remind me of when the college all-stars used to play the Super Bowl champion. 

At the moment each of those all-stars are beating your Super Bowl champion nationally by an average of 8-9 points, and this comes after what was arguably Trump’s best week as President. Not good news for the “champion”. 

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Just now, timschochet said:

At the moment each of those all-stars are beating your Super Bowl champion nationally by an average of 8-9 points, and this comes after what was arguably Trump’s best week as President. Not good news for the “champion”. 

Hope is a wonderful thing.  I'm glad to see you have that.

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

Hope is a wonderful thing.  I'm glad to see you have that.

Hope is great, but math is better. 

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7 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Hope is great, but math is better. 

Where did that math get you in 2016?

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17 minutes ago, timschochet said:

At the moment each of those all-stars are beating your Super Bowl champion nationally by an average of 8-9 points, and this comes after what was arguably Trump’s best week as President. Not good news for the “champion”. 

You've declared about 8 candidates the future president already.  Not sure any of them even have a chance.  

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56 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

In the end this will remind me of when the college all-stars used to play the Super Bowl champion. 

The economy is doing well and the President should have an approval rating at over 60% but he is such a vindictive, nasty, mean, narcissist jerk his high water mark is about 49%. He just can’t shut up and get out his own way. Man, he survived the impeachment trial, he basically won. Just move on, talk about the good things that you have accomplished. 

I will never forget an elderly religious woman I visited with at a nursing home a couple years ago who was very pro-life who said she just couldn’t vote for Trump. “She said I vote the person not the policy”

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Democrats need to hammer Trump on this proposed budget. I’m not sure why any of them are talking about anything but that right now.

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Cutting the EPA by 25% during a period of dangerous climate change, cutting the CDC during a pandemic, taking money from Medicare, cutting public education and still expanding the national debt unless impossible economic growth happens.This should write itself for Democrats, but they don’t seem to have a grasp on what to do.

Edited by Ilov80s
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11 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Democrats need to hammer Trump on this proposed budget. I’m not sure why any of them are talking about anything but that right now.

Exactly. Let's cut things that help people but we need money to send people to Mars.

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:
1 hour ago, The Commish said:

Bump....it seems like we're already down the "it's a transcript / not a transcript" rabbit hole with others in this thread, but you seem even keeled...just wanted to see if you agreed and we're on the same page here.  In your opinion, is it appropriate that Bernie is even labeling himself as he is given the definitions of the words.  FWIW, I agree that it's not appropriate as it's not really socialism is defined.

I apologize, i missed your post somehow. 

I reject it as a criticism for everybody that doesnt refer to themself as a socialist. 

But for Bernie, AOC, and Tlaib they declare it. They are adults. They know the darn well the meaning of the word there is a reason they picked it and have doubled down on it. 

AOC and Tlaib are even card carrying members of DSA. 

But if we want to get more specific i reject it as a criticism of things like medicare for all, food stamps, and minimum wages(to a point)

I do not reject it as a criticism of things like you dont make a billion dollars, you take a billion dollars...so lets wealth tax the heck out of you. 

Fair enough....this is the rub you will continually run into.  I can't speak specifically to anyone other than Bernie though, but he's defined the term outside your stricter definitions.  I'm good with your definition, but you're going to have huge issues in communication here if you don't also push back on him identifying himself as such if the distinction isn't consistent.  I tend to agree with you over all these issues.  His proposals around M4A, food stamps, expanding public education etc AREN'T socialist.  It's probably best to make that clear in each post as well.  My :2cents: 

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6 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Cutting the EPA by 25% during a period of dangerous climate change, cutting the CDC during a pandemic, taking money from Medicare, cutting public education and still expanding the national debt unless impossible economic growth happens.This should write itself for Democrats, but they don’t seem to have a grasp on what to do.

:goodposting:

They are terrible at politics.....I don't know how that's possible.

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4 minutes ago, The Commish said:

:goodposting:

They are terrible at politics.....I don't know how that's possible.

The toughest part seems to be that the Dems have really wide views on policy and can’t agree at this point. I don’t think the GOP cares about policies, just winning. 

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20 minutes ago, Mile High said:

Exactly. Let's cut things that help people but we need money to send people to Mars.

The Olympus Mons Trump Tower will be yuuuge!....Bigger than the Mons itself.  

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1 hour ago, JohnnyU said:

Where did that math get you in 2016?

Here’s a bit of math for you regarding 2016 and today: there are 20,000 less registered Republicans in New Hampshire than in 2016. This follows a pattern in  nearly every other state: as Trump’s hold on the party increases, the overall number of Republicans shrink. Not a good sign for November. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Here’s a bit of math for you regarding 2016 and today: there are 20,000 less registered Republicans in New Hampshire than in 2016. This follows a pattern in  nearly every other state: as Trump’s hold on the party increases, the overall number of Republicans shrink. Not a good sign for November. 

https://www.governing.com/topics/politics/gov-voter-registration-governor-president-2020-republicans-democrats.html

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6 minutes ago, timschochet said:

The party is still shrinking. Sorry about that but it’s your fault. You chose Trump. Now you’ll have to live with being irrelevant for decades. 

Irrelevant? I wake up each day thankful for being alive. I don’t let politics consume my life like you do. And by the way, before you predict the demise of the Republican party, you may want to reflect on the train wreck going on with your party. You even started a thread about it. 

Edited by John Blutarsky

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14 minutes ago, The Commish said:

Fair enough....this is the rub you will continually run into.  I can't speak specifically to anyone other than Bernie though, but he's defined the term outside your stricter definitions.  I'm good with your definition, but you're going to have huge issues in communication here if you don't also push back on him identifying himself as such if the distinction isn't consistent.  I tend to agree with you over all these issues.  His proposals around M4A, food stamps, expanding public education etc AREN'T socialist.  It's probably best to make that clear in each post as well.  My :2cents: 

Damage control and talking out of both sides of his mouth. 

It isnt like Bernie is so unique that he needs his own newly defined label. I am waiting for people to start branding him as a democratic social independent. Well except on tuesdays when he is just a democrat. 

He picked democratic socialist for a reason. He tweets support for pretty much every labor union dispute that is active. I actually stopped following him on twitter because i got sick of seeing the we stand with joe bob's custodial workers and wont poop in any toilets they service until ownership agrees to give them a fair share of the profits! tweets

Not saying that labor union support makes somebody a socialist, but his super passionate pleas about pretty much every union ever and his loathing of the uber wealthy to me show his true colors and make his choice of labeling ring true not the post criticism redefining i am seeing. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

You've declared about 8 candidates the future president already.  Not sure any of them even have a chance.  

The democrats have decided that they will use the baseball strategy of sending out a starting pitcher but after just an inning or so they will rotate in relievers swapping back and forth from left wingers to centrists to keep them and everything else fresh.   

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