Amazing graphic showing where on the court shots are taken now vs years ago.
https://twitter.com/kirkgoldsberry/status/1217109175894831105?s=20
https://twitter.com/kirkgoldsberry/status/1217109175894831105?s=20
WowAmazing graphic showing where on the court shots are taken now vs years ago.
https://twitter.com/kirkgoldsberry/status/1217109175894831105?s=20
It's ok. We're good.Wow
That is fascinating.
Mods, can you move this to the NBA forum
Agreed.Analytics has definitely changed baseball and I think most people think of baseball first when they think about analytics impacting the sport, but it’s had just a big, or maybe even bigger, impact in basketball.
Didn’t think we were allowed to discuss dots anymore.Interesting - what do the red versus orange dots indicate? Was trying to figure out from the post itself and comments below.
Hexagons then.Didn’t think we were allowed to discuss dots anymore.
One of these things is not like the others,The Knicks ($4.6 billion) Lakers ($4.4 billion) Warriors ($4.3 billion) Cowboys ($5.5 billion) Yankees ($4.6 billion)
For me, I think this has hurt basketball. Now, I don't watch NBA, but love college basketball. So I go in saying that, but I don't think analytics or the three point line hurt the game. But the two things combined do.Amazing graphic showing where on the court shots are taken now vs years ago.
https://twitter.com/kirkgoldsberry/status/1217109175894831105?s=20
I understand the atmosphere of the arenas and tournament style appeal of the college game — I love it too and watch a ton of it. But to like that game and not watch the nba at all baffles me. The game is so much better it’s almost preposterous. I will say I don’t watch much regular season nba as there are no stakes but the playoffs are about as good as it gets.For me, I think this has hurt basketball. Now, I don't watch NBA, but love college basketball. So I go in saying that, but I don't think analytics or the three point line hurt the game. But the two things combined do.
For me, it seems that college basketball is still more a team game, while NBA is more of 1 on 1 matchups. That's just my thoughts. As a kid, I was a huge Sixers fan. I probably stopped following NBA right around the time Barkley left the Sixers.I understand the atmosphere of the arenas and tournament style appeal of the college game — I love it too and watch a ton of it. But to like that game and not watch the nba at all baffles me. The game is so much better it’s almost preposterous. I will say I don’t watch much regular season nba as there are no stakes but the playoffs are about as good as it gets.
I agree that college basketball seems more of a team game in working the ball around. At the end of the day though, even in college, it seems very common that guys often give up shots in the paint or mid-range by kicking it out to an open guy for a three-point shotFor me, it seems that college basketball is still more a team game, while NBA is more of 1 on 1 matchups. That's just my thoughts. As a kid, I was a huge Sixers fan. I probably stopped following NBA right around the time Barkley left the Sixers.
Hmm. I would say there is only one prominent hero ball team now — the rockets, and they suck to watch. The Warriors probably played the prettiest team game in basketball history before Durant (and even with him) and the Raptors of last year and this year play incredible team ball. I doubt there has ever been a better time of ball sharing in nba history.For me, it seems that college basketball is still more a team game, while NBA is more of 1 on 1 matchups. That's just my thoughts. As a kid, I was a huge Sixers fan. I probably stopped following NBA right around the time Barkley left the Sixers.
Wondering what kind of career Kareem Jabbar would have if he was just coming into the league now. Jabbar did not run the court well and had no outside shot. NBA teams on offense do not want the middle clogged up anymore. The Piston could not give away 7ft Andre Drummond who plays an old style game.Amazing graphic showing where on the court shots are taken now vs years ago.
https://twitter.com/kirkgoldsberry/status/1217109175894831105?s=20
It very well could be. But by 2005, I was already out. And with the Warriors pretty much only losing about 20 games over a 4 year period, there really wasn't any drama to drag me back in of late.Hmm. I would say there is only one prominent hero ball team now — the rockets, and they suck to watch. The Warriors probably played the prettiest team game in basketball history before Durant (and even with him) and the Raptors of last year and this year play incredible team ball. I doubt there has ever been a better time of ball sharing in nba history.
I think the idea that the nba plays hero ball is more of a 2005 thing with guys like Carmelo.
Walton and Lanier would be dragging him up and down the court for 48 minutes.Wondering what kind of career Kareem Jabbar would have if he was just coming into the league now.
Oh I get it. My viewing has dropped too. I pretty much absorb all CFB but only the big nfl games (non-Bucs of course). Playoffs for NBA, Bolts for hockey and bandwagon the rays for baseball — haven’t watched a non-rays regular season game in probably 20 years and likely never will again. I got stuff to do now.It very well could be. But by 2005, I was already out. And with the Warriors pretty much only losing about 20 games over a 4 year period, there really wasn't any drama to drag me back in of late.
Honestly, as I've gotten older my sports viewing has declined across the board. Baseball is my big one and college basketball is a far second. After that, it drops off a cliff. I still get ESPN score updates for all of my teams, including the NBA teams, but unless the Sixers make it to the Finals, I probably won't watch a game ever again.
Disagree, but I know it is personal preference. I think analytics has created a better game. I think moving the three point line back would change the analytics a bit, and I wouldn't disagree with that. But, watching playoff games from the 80s on NBA TV where 2 3 point attempts are made all game, and people are getting clobbered in the lane isn't necessarily a better game.For me, I think this has hurt basketball. Now, I don't watch NBA, but love college basketball. So I go in saying that, but I don't think analytics or the three point line hurt the game. But the two things combined do.
I like both but college basketball is just way more exciting to me on every level. Obviously the players/skillsets are much greater on the NBA level but the effort and ball movement is better at the college level. It's not really close to me.I understand the atmosphere of the arenas and tournament style appeal of the college game — I love it too and watch a ton of it. But to like that game and not watch the nba at all baffles me. The game is so much better it’s almost preposterous. I will say I don’t watch much regular season nba as there are no stakes but the playoffs are about as good as it gets.
I’m sorry but the ball movement in college is just nowhere near as good as the nba. 2/3 of those games are just miserable offensive basketball.I like both but college basketball is just way more exciting to me on every level. Obviously the players/skillsets are much greater on the NBA level but the effort and ball movement is better at the college level. It's not really close to me.
I'm not saying every college basket game is a thing of beauty but overall the product is more fun to watch for me. We can agree to disagree about ball movement I guess.I’m sorry but the ball movement in college is just nowhere near as good as the nba. 2/3 of those games are just miserable offensive basketball.
I think ball movement creates open shots and it varies where those come from. Guys set up their movement and locations to maximize 3 pt opportunities because analytics says its better. If the three pt line was taken away then it wouldn't matter where the shots were coming from and my guess is that the shots would move closer to the basket as that increases the likelihood of making it. When you take out the extra point the make percentage becomes king because they are all the same. I would expect the shot chart to start creeping closer to the basket.Just say the 3 point line was taken away. Would that move shooting out some from the lane, or would that just mean more shots in underneath?
Not that I'm advocating getting rid of the 3 point line. Just wondering.
It's a tough thing to say because if Jabbar was just coming in now his game would be completely different. He was a good enough athlete that growing up in the AAU world his game would have been tailored differently. I would guess he would still be a top player but how he did it would be different.Wondering what kind of career Kareem Jabbar would have if he was just coming into the league now. Jabbar did not run the court well and had no outside shot. NBA teams on offense do not want the middle clogged up anymore. The Piston could not give away 7ft Andre Drummond who plays an old style game.
For me, it seems that college basketball is still more a team game, while NBA is more of 1 on 1 matchups. That's just my thoughts. As a kid, I was a huge Sixers fan. I probably stopped following NBA right around the time Barkley left the Sixers.
I agree that college basketball seems more of a team game in working the ball around. At the end of the day though, even in college, it seems very common that guys often give up shots in the paint or mid-range by kicking it out to an open guy for a three-point shot
Maybe I'm wrong though - would love to see a comparable chart for college.
Exactly. No one is trying to make college basketball more like the NFL. So why are they continually trying to make CBB more like the NBA. Stop it. ESPN and their people seem to be the driving force behind this movement and I hate them all for suggesting it.Now think about what this has done to basketball in 5th and 7th grade. They think they need to just shoot 3's as well. THe problem is most are not able to. They can barely heave it as hard as they can to hit the backboard. College is better than the NBA about not being so 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 pick and roll. They are different. I can't stand the people that want to change college into the NBA. IF you like the NBA watch the NBA, if you don't like college, don't watch college.
If there becomes a point that the make percentage increases enough to offset moving back X feet for an extra point then analytics will swing to the mid range jumper. It is all about maximizing your points. At some point it makes more sense to do that if the make percentage is high enough.Now the question is - do mid range jumpers become the new exploitable inefficiency? Mid ranger jumpers are bad because you only make 47% of them (or whatever) so your EV is below 1 point. And you are better off doing a layup or 3.
But that 47% assumes you are guarded. But teams are starting to switch up how they play defense - asking you to take those mid range jumpers. So can you adjust and exploit that?
That might make the game more interesting though. A hybrid of college basketball and NFL football could be the next huge sport!Exactly. No one is trying to make college basketball more like the NFL. So why are they continually trying to make CBB more like the NBA. Stop it. ESPN and their people seem to be the driving force behind this movement and I hate them all for suggesting it.
A good example of where the voice in my head was way ahead of what my fingers were typing.That might make the game more interesting though. A hybrid of college basketball and NFL football could be the next huge sport!
I''d assume you're right. The math says 3 point shots give teams the best chance.This is the direct result of analytics...baseball has similar trends with regards to roster building/defensive alignments. It's pretty cool.
Typically it is doing away with bunting, stealing, and just making contact. Essentially it says swing for the fences at all times as that leads to the most runs. Its a lot of the reasons why strikeouts are way up and most runs are scored through HR's. No more small ball. Earl Weaver was way ahead of the times (pitching, defense and the 3-run homer)…..I''d assume you're right. The math says 3 point shots give teams the best chance.
What are some of the specific changes in baseball you're talking about?
The shiftI''d assume you're right. The math says 3 point shots give teams the best chance.
What are some of the specific changes in baseball you're talking about?
Really - Wow - Check out the NHL playoffs..I understand the atmosphere of the arenas and tournament style appeal of the college game — I love it too and watch a ton of it. But to like that game and not watch the nba at all baffles me. The game is so much better it’s almost preposterous. I will say I don’t watch much regular season nba as there are no stakes but the playoffs are about as good as it gets.
Hockey is the best spectator sport there is...…….and playoff hockey is even more intense......Really - Wow - Check out the NHL playoffs..
I may have sent the wrong message.. I'm saying the NHL Playoffs are the best of our top 4 sports.. In my opinion the NBA is almost unwatchableHockey is the best spectator sport there is...…….and playoff hockey is even more intense......
I think we can get a couple more sports in this thread......cricket, curling, team handball?
I know.....I was agreeing with you. Maybe I sent the wrong message....hahahahaI may have sent the wrong message.. I'm saying the NHL Playoffs are the best of our top 4 sports.. In my opinion the NBA is almost unwatchable
i forget which podcast i heard it on, but along the lines of the "hero ball" and how it has changed the game, there was a pretty big change scouts and teams have seen with players and how they are being coached now. They focused mostly on middle and high school age programs, but they talked about how you can walk into a gym with most of these programs and all the kids are practicing 3's. they mentioned how there is a big drop off with FT shooting and percentage with those age groups, and all they are being coached to do is shoot 3'sHmm. I would say there is only one prominent hero ball team now — the rockets, and they suck to watch. The Warriors probably played the prettiest team game in basketball history before Durant (and even with him) and the Raptors of last year and this year play incredible team ball. I doubt there has ever been a better time of ball sharing in nba history.
I think the idea that the nba plays hero ball is more of a 2005 thing with guys like Carmelo.