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Finland has a capitalist economy. Why are the Finns happier than the US? (1 Viewer)

gianmarco

Footballguy
Short but good read

Every four years, we hear a lot from presidential candidates about America's freedom. They love to use the word "freedom" as a shorthand explaining all the possibilities we enjoy as Americans: the freedom to do what you want in your private life, the freedom to raise your kids how you please, the freedom to start over fresh. America, they argue, is the freest place on earth, a land of liberty where nobody is encumbered or constrained by forces beyond their control.

It's a lyrical ideal — a story that has been passed down from the Founding Fathers.

But when you investigate our actual freedoms as Americans, that story begins to break down. How free can you truly be if, like four out of every 10 Americans, you don't have $400 in the bank to cover an emergency expense? Can you truly enjoy your freedom when you're not saving for retirement and your faith in the economy is eroding at a rapid clip?

The truth is that in the modern world, economic security is key to freedom. If you don't have sufficient savings or a growing earning potential or the ability to help lay a foundation for your children, you're not free. If you can't leave your job for an exciting new possibility or get out from under a mountain of debt, you're not free — you're stuck in a cycle of increasing poverty that forces you to be reliant on your employer for (a shrinking) salary and (if you're lucky) health insurance.

Many young progressives online interpret this breakdown of American freedom as a failure of capitalism, and it's easy to understand why. When you've been fed the idea of "free market" capitalism, in which a shrinking menagerie of trickle-down "winners" keep growing their wallets at the expense of the bottom 90% of the economy for your entire life, it's easy to blame the whole system for failing you.

But what most people don't realize is that the rules of economies aren't inviolable. They're not constant everywhere in the known universe like physics. An economy is a choice, and it's possible to choose a better "flavor" of capitalism — one which provides more freedom and opportunity and choice to everyone. 

In this week's episode of "Pitchfork Economics," Nick Hanauer and David Goldstein interview two experts about the most stable, safest, and best-governed nation in the world — a country that always ranks near the top of international surveys of individual wealth, lack of corruption, progressiveness, and social justice. That nation is Finland. 

And before critics roll out the "S" word, let's make it clear that while Finns enjoy an expansive social safety net, good pensions, and robust sick and family leave protections, their economy cannot be characterized in good faith as a socialist. Finland is a thoroughly capitalist nation: Some people make lots of money, and others make very little. But Finland has chosen a more inclusive form of capitalism that ensures that the wealthiest Finns pay their fair share in taxes while the poorest Finns don't suffer for lack of access to food, clothing, shelter, and medical care. In so doing, they've redefined what freedom means in the modern world.

In her brilliant and accessible book "The Nordic Theory of Everything," author Anu Partanen argues that Finland offers a blueprint to any nation interested in embracing a more compassionate capitalism, which she describes as the "Nordic theory of love." In a New York Times editorial titled "Finland Is a Capitalist Paradise," Partanen and her coauthor Trevor Corson take the argument even further, arguing that after one year living in Finland together, they have experienced "an increase in personal freedom" over the United States.

In Partanen's book, she claims that the economies in Nordic nations like Finland are "intentionally designed to take into account the specific challenges of modern life and give citizens as much logistical and financial independence as possible." Through universal healthcare, affordable childcare that's capped at $300 per month, free college, and copious paid vacations, the authors have enjoyed the freedom to live their lives unencumbered by worries about a sudden large expense destroying their lives.

The only question that matters is this: Which kind of freedom is most important to you? The freedom for corporations to avoid taxes by lobbying to change the tax code, or the freedom for you to start a new career in your 40s? The freedom to deregulate pollution or the freedom to take a paid vacation? When you decide that the goal of your economy is to create more happiness for everyone rather than to optimize shareholder value, it's amazing to see how your definition of freedom can change for the better.
 
i think this has been discussed before, and I believe the answer was small country with few immigrants.  I could be wrong.  I personally love the Scandinavian systems.  

ps - I believe it was Finland where a guy got a $100,000+ speeding ticket because they are proportional to salary, and I absolutely love that.  If you can afford a car that goes over 200, a $300 ticket probably doesn't mean much to you.  Forward thinking at it's finest over there.  Kudos to Finland. 

 
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Yes, not just Finland, but Sweden too, and a number of other countries, have been better at capitalism than the U.S. has been for a while now.

 
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Taxes aren't a problem(within reason) if you have politicians who use them wisely and efficiently.  Electing corrupt idiots is a far bigger problem than taxes. 
I'm just talking about the disparity of income in America and what taxation rates mean both tangibly and symbolically. Electing corrupt idiots is by far the bigger problem, but they're not idiots if people are voting themselves federal appropriations through them. In other words, it's the people's demands, not the deliverance, which is the key factor here. 

 
The population of Finland is about half the size of the Chicago Metro-Area. Or roughly the same size as Metro-Detroit at around 5.5 million.

Finland also wants very limited immigration. As of 2018, there are 402,601 foreigners people residing in Finland, which corresponds to around 7% of the population. Numerous polls indicate that the majority of the Finnish people want to keep limited immigration to the country in order to preserve regional laws and native cultural diversity.

Is limited immigration very little diversity the recipe for happiness for Finns? That sounds like ultra right wing conservatism.

 
The population of Finland is about half the size of the Chicago Metro-Area. Or roughly the same size as Metro-Detroit at around 5.5 million.

Finland also wants very limited immigration. As of 2018, there are 402,601 foreigners people residing in Finland, which corresponds to around 7% of the population. Numerous polls indicate that the majority of the Finnish people want to keep limited immigration to the country in order to preserve regional laws and native cultural diversity.

Is limited immigration very little diversity the recipe for happiness for Finns? That sounds like ultra right wing conservatism.
The homogeneity of the countries normally at question in these mental exercises is often much greater than that of America. And, as you point, often they have little immigration. 

 
The population of Finland is about half the size of the Chicago Metro-Area. Or roughly the same size as Metro-Detroit at around 5.5 million.

Finland also wants very limited immigration. As of 2018, there are 402,601 foreigners people residing in Finland, which corresponds to around 7% of the population. Numerous polls indicate that the majority of the Finnish people want to keep limited immigration to the country in order to preserve regional laws and native cultural diversity.

Is limited immigration very little diversity the recipe for happiness for Finns? That sounds like ultra right wing conservatism.
Now do the Swedes :popcorn:

 
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Yeah, as others have noted, Finnland and other Nordic countries are monocultures.  That isn't something that the US can emulate.

Edit: As a resident of the upper Midwest, I live in the part of the US that is most monocultural and probably the most Nordic.  Literally, "diversity" in this part of the country means that your town has a Lutheran church and a different kind of Lutheran church.  The rest of the US is completely unlike this and it's extremely noticeable whenever I travel anywhere.

 
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The homogeneity of the countries normally at question in these mental exercises is often much greater than that of America. And, as you point, often they have little immigration. 
 Finland's population is less than 2% of the USA and has way less diversity. Small population, more people with the same thought process, less political division.    That being the case it would be impossible for the USA to even remotely try to copy that.

 
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 Finland's population is less than 2% of the USA and has way less diversity. Less people, more people with the same thought process, less political division.    That being the case it would be impossible for the USA to even remotely try to copy that.
That's what the theory is. That in a diverse, pluralistic society like ours, it would be difficult to replicate the redistribution policies and safety nets of the Scandinavian countries. 

 
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That's what the theory is. That in a diverse, pluralistic society like ours, it would be difficult to replicate the redistribution policies and safety nets of the Scandinavian countries. 
One of the essays in the 1619 Project makes exactly this argument, that ethnic diversity undermines the ability to create a social safety net.  To be fair, the author imagines his thesis to be "white racism is to blame for our lack of a social safety net," but his article could just as easily be read as "multiculturalism is to blame for our lack of a social safety net."  I'm not sure those two theses are really distinct.

 
One of the essays in the 1619 Project makes exactly this argument, that ethnic diversity undermines the ability to create a social safety net.  To be fair, the author imagines his thesis to be "white racism is to blame for our lack of a social safety net," but his article could just as easily be read as "multiculturalism is to blame for our lack of a social safety net."  I'm not sure those two theses are really distinct.
I think it might be an a priori and a posteriori type of difference. That is, to say that a safety net is impossible because of multiculturalism is different than saying that white racism is to blame. One takes the multiculturalism as a given, given slavery and its attendant abolition and repatriation of citizens, the other takes multiculturalism as something to be remedied. 

 
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One of the essays in the 1619 Project makes exactly this argument, that ethnic diversity undermines the ability to create a social safety net.  To be fair, the author imagines his thesis to be "white racism is to blame for our lack of a social safety net," but his article could just as easily be read as "multiculturalism is to blame for our lack of a social safety net."  I'm not sure those two theses are really distinct.
Not by % but in terms of sheer numbers there are more low income white people and children in the USA that other groups. We have become jaded here...Not every white guy is a FBG.

Poverty affects children of all colors, contrary to stereotypes. The notion held by many Americans that poverty is not a white problem is simply false,” says Jane Knitzer, EdD, director of NCCP, a research center at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health. “The sooner all Americans realize these facts about poverty, the better chance we have of eradicating it.”

 
Not by % but in terms of sheer numbers there are more low income white people and children in the USA that other groups. We have become jaded here...Not every white guy is a FBG.

Poverty affects children of all colors, contrary to stereotypes. The notion held by many Americans that poverty is not a white problem is simply false,” says Jane Knitzer, EdD, director of NCCP, a research center at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health. “The sooner all Americans realize these facts about poverty, the better chance we have of eradicating it.”
I think you'd have a hard time swinging a cat and not hitting a policy analyst that wasn't abreast of this. Consider it Exhibit A in President Trump's election. 

 
The population of Finland is about half the size of the Chicago Metro-Area. Or roughly the same size as Metro-Detroit at around 5.5 million.

Finland also wants very limited immigration. As of 2018, there are 402,601 foreigners people residing in Finland, which corresponds to around 7% of the population. Numerous polls indicate that the majority of the Finnish people want to keep limited immigration to the country in order to preserve regional laws and native cultural diversity.

Is limited immigration very little diversity the recipe for happiness for Finns? That sounds like ultra right wing conservatism.
Okay.  So, since Detroit is only about 6% immigrant population, that explains why Detroit is so much happier than Finland?

 
Okay.  So, since Detroit is only about 6% immigrant population, that explains why Detroit is so much happier than Finland?
  Where does it say Detroit is happier?  That was a comparison in population not happiness ratio.

 
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 Finland's population is less than 2% of the USA and has way less diversity. Small population, more people with the same thought process, less political division.    That being the case it would be impossible for the USA to even remotely try to copy that.
We should be able to do things better than almost anyone else. If we can't, then it's another ***** in the armor of that whole "exceptionalism" belief.

 
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  Where does it say Detroit is happier?  That was a comparison in population not happiness ratio.
Oh. Sorry, I thought you were suggesting that Finland’s immigrant percentage relative to population was why it’s happier than the United States in some people’s views, and I was being tongue in cheek. 

 
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We have too much diversity to make better rules and become a better, happier country?

Yeah, not buying that one.
That's a strawmanned version of it.  

A stronger version of the argument is that big, heterogeneous countries where lots of people disagree on lots of stuff and parties have to work carefully to build loosely-connected coalitions will naturally be harder to govern that small, homogeneous countries with people who all share the same values and overall policy goals.  That argument doesn't seem remotely controversial to me.

 
We have too much diversity to make better rules and become a better, happier country?

Yeah, not buying that one.
Harder to get to consensus on what those better rules should be and how to get there when there is more diversity of opinions, values, and concerns.  And it applies to diversity in every sense - getting a group of people living in a city to agree on what's important and how things should work is easier than getting rural and urban groups to agree when their life experiences and needs can be greatly different.  Guns as an example, a rancher may need one to defend his livestock, while they are arguably unnecessary in cities.  Car culture vs mass transit, etc. etc.

We can do better no doubt, but we have more hurdles than Finland to be sure.

 
That's a strawmanned version of it.  

A stronger version of the argument is that big, heterogeneous countries where lots of people disagree on lots of stuff and parties have to work carefully to build loosely-connected coalitions will naturally be harder to govern that small, homogeneous countries with people who all share the same values and overall policy goals.  That argument doesn't seem remotely controversial to me.
What it is is a surrender to circumstances. Some of us are working to change those circumstances. Some of us use those circumstances to not try to improve things. "Can't" all too often segues into "won't." All we have to do is look around us and see the things that we've done that many said couldn't be done.

 
What it is is a surrender to circumstances. 
No it isn't.  It's a rejection of magical thinking.  

The US has lots of advantages over other countries.  We have a highly-educated population with a strong technological and industrial base.  We haven't had to fight a war on our soil in well over a century.  We have access to all sorts of natural resources.  And so on.  That said, there's really no denying that we're an objectively harder country to govern than some Nordic country that's roughly equivalent to the state of Minnesota.  This isn't a new development -- it's sort of what the Federalist Papers were about.  

 
No it isn't.  It's a rejection of magical thinking.  

The US has lots of advantages over other countries.  We have a highly-educated population with a strong technological and industrial base.  We haven't had to fight a war on our soil in well over a century.  We have access to all sorts of natural resources.  And so on.  That said, there's really no denying that we're an objectively harder country to govern than some Nordic country that's roughly equivalent to the state of Minnesota.  This isn't a new development -- it's sort of what the Federalist Papers were about.  
"We can do it" is indeed magical thinking for far too many of us, Ivan. Sorry if I won't go along with it.

 
No it isn't.  It's a rejection of magical thinking.  

The US has lots of advantages over other countries.  We have a highly-educated population with a strong technological and industrial base.  We haven't had to fight a war on our soil in well over a century.  We have access to all sorts of natural resources.  And so on.  That said, there's really no denying that we're an objectively harder country to govern than some Nordic country that's roughly equivalent to the state of Minnesota.  This isn't a new development -- it's sort of what the Federalist Papers were about.  
It was also a consideration one of the most interesting philosophers in the world, Jean Jacques Rousseau. His writings and his constitutions for both Corsica and Poland helped shape a lot of the Federalist Papers, especially the Anti-Federalist passages in local papers, pamphlets, etc., that caused the Federalists to have to back down a bit from monarchy and commerce and consider us a loose affiliation of states within which were where homogeneous sentiments could be met at a level less large than the federal corpus.  

But you know that. More to the point, it was treated as science as given from God to the liberal letters. It certainly posited axioms, but none that were too far from the breast of possibility. Not saying roadkill1292 is wrong to pursue his wont; it just seems like the social sciences are on the side of less diversity when it comes to sweeping changes like federal taxation redistribution for safety nets within the U.S. If anything, we should aspire to safety nets at the state level and see how those fare. 

 
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It was also a consideration one of the most interesting philosophers in the world, Jean Jacques Rousseau. His writings and his constitutions for both Corsica and Poland helped shape a lot of the Federalist Papers, especially the Anti-Federalist passages in local papers, pamphlets, etc., that caused the Federalists to have to back down a bit from monarchy and commerce and consider us a loose affiliation of states within which were where homogeneous sentiments could be met at a level less large than the federal corpus.  

But you know that. More to the point, it was treated as science as given from God to the liberal letters. It certainly posited axioms, but none that were too far from the breast of possibility. Not saying roadkill1292 is wrong to pursue his wont; it just seems like the social sciences are on the side of less diversity when it comes to sweeping changes like federal taxation redistribution for safety nets within the U.S. If anything, we should aspire to safety nets at the state level and see how those fare. 
Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that the US should be less diverse or less multicultural.  That's like arguing that we should have fewer mountains or fewer deserts.  It isn't up to us -- our multiculturalism is an exogenous variable that has benefits and drawbacks that we should be clear-eyed about.

 
I wish Democrats would more fully embrace this Nordic model instead of too often demonizing the wealthy and corporations.  It's clearly the way of the future.

 
Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that the US should be less diverse or less multicultural.  That's like arguing that we should have fewer mountains or fewer deserts.  It isn't up to us -- our multiculturalism is an exogenous variable that has benefits and drawbacks that we should be clear-eyed about.
Yeah, I didn't think you were arguing that. Neither was I, though that sentence is hardly emblematic. I think questions of diversity become tougher because of the sheer size and scope of the federal government and all whom it represents, whereas when done locally, differences are often woven into the culture and those coalitions of allies and common causes tend to have more expressive voices and run deeper in roots, lesser in numbers. 

 
No it isn't.  It's a rejection of magical thinking.  

The US has lots of advantages over other countries.  We have a highly-educated population with a strong technological and industrial base.  We haven't had to fight a war on our soil in well over a century.  We have access to all sorts of natural resources.  And so on.  That said, there's really no denying that we're an objectively harder country to govern than some Nordic country that's roughly equivalent to the state of Minnesota.  This isn't a new development -- it's sort of what the Federalist Papers were about.  
Ivan, sometimes you are way too logical for this place.

 
No it isn't.  It's a rejection of magical thinking.  

The US has lots of advantages over other countries.  We have a highly-educated population with a strong technological and industrial base.  We haven't had to fight a war on our soil in well over a century.  We have access to all sorts of natural resources.  And so on.  That said, there's really no denying that we're an objectively harder country to govern than some Nordic country that's roughly equivalent to the state of Minnesota.  This isn't a new development -- it's sort of what the Federalist Papers were about.  
Is Minnesota happier than the rest of the US? Plenty of Nordic influence there...

ETA: What about Iowa? Wyoming?

 
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That's a strawmanned version of it.  

A stronger version of the argument is that big, heterogeneous countries where lots of people disagree on lots of stuff and parties have to work carefully to build loosely-connected coalitions will naturally be harder to govern that small, homogeneous countries with people who all share the same values and overall policy goals.  That argument doesn't seem remotely controversial to me.
I guess I don't understand why being heterogeneous and multicultural makes a difference.  Minorities and immigrants don't seem to be the ones that are arguing against some of these reforms.  Those opposed seem to be the wealthy and powerful and those they influence.

 
Juxtatarot said:
I wish Democrats would more fully embrace this Nordic model instead of too often demonizing the wealthy and corporations.  It's clearly the way of the future.
I would like to raise taxes substantially on the richest Americans.  Is that an embrace of the Nordic model or is that demonizing the wealthy?

 
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I would like to raise taxes substantially on the richest Americans.  Is that an embrace of the Nordic model or is that demonizing the wealthy?
It could be either, neither or both.  From reading your posts over the years, I assume you would want to embrace the Nordic model.  However, if you threw in some shots about the rich being lying, cheating, stealing bastards while doing it, it would be both.

 
msommer said:
VOLCANIC ERUPTION HOT TAKE! IMMIGRATION PRECLUDES HAPPINESS!
Well the way I look at it is if Finland`s government and their people want to limit immigration to preserve their way of life it is up to them not us. I mean it is their country.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
That's a strawmanned version of it.  

A stronger version of the argument is that big, heterogeneous countries where lots of people disagree on lots of stuff and parties have to work carefully to build loosely-connected coalitions will naturally be harder to govern that small, homogeneous countries with people who all share the same values and overall policy goals.  That argument doesn't seem remotely controversial to me.
Is the suggestion that smaller populations with racial homogeneity means people disagree on less stuff?  Because I can bring you to my city counsel meeting in a very white town of 10,000 people sometime and we can disabuse you of that notion.

 
Over 20% of Canada’s population is foreign-born yet they have a solid welfare state with universal healthcare, a child allowance, and low levels of income inequality. The politics of welfare are easier when we trust each other, and sometimes we’re less trusting of people who aren’t like us—but we shouldn’t throw up our hands in defeat just because we’re a diverse country. We may never fully emulate Nordic social democracy, but we can still do a lot to improve people’s day to day lives. 

 

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