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Citizens United (overturned) or Term Limits - which would benefit our country more? (1 Viewer)

More valuable to the health of our country?

  • Citizens United (overturned)

    Votes: 39 54.9%
  • Term Limits for Congress/Senate

    Votes: 32 45.1%

  • Total voters
    71

JAA

Footballguy
First, does anyone believe either of these should not be changed?

Second, please vote on which you would rather have changed in our country.

I believe if we could get both of these changed our country would make a tremendous positive change.  That said, im torn on which I would choose first.  I guess it would be term limits as that would make it harder for Big Business to interfere, but ultimately we need both to help get money out of politics.

 
Term limits are a bad idea

A 2006 report from the National Conference of State Legislatures examined states that imposed term limits on their state lawmakers. It found that term limits tend to increase the influence of lobbyists and lead to a “decline in civility” that “reduced legislators’ willingness and ability to compromise and engage in consensus building.”

Term-limited lawmakers, the NCSL explained, “have less time to get to know and trust one another” and “are less collegial and less likely to bond with their peers, particularly those from across the aisle.”

They also aren’t experienced enough to develop the knowledge and legislative skills they need to govern effectively. Term-limited lawmakers cannot spend enough time learning how the legislature works or mastering difficult policy issues. They also can’t rely on senior colleagues to give them this information because there are no senior colleagues.

This problem “forces term-limited legislators to rely on lobbyists for information.” Lobbyists, unlike term-limited lawmakers, are able to spend years mastering legislative process and building institutional memory about reoccurring policy debates. Indeed, in a term-limited legislature, such lobbyists may be the only place lawmakers can turn to for this information. That gives those lobbyists a disproportionate influence over policy.
 
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Not sure why term limits makes sense. Maybe for the Senate since that’s only a 100 people and the terms are longer. My counter to term limits is that it could give more power to lobbyists since they would be the ones with the most experience in Washington and could bully young politicians even more. 

 
Exactly. I think about my job. It honestly took like 8 years before I felt like I finally hit my prime and really had a full grasp on everything. Why would we force people out who have experience and savy? 
Because they are set in their ways and keep new ideas out of the debate.  Also, they have a huge head start in funding their re-election campaigns.

 
Based on the two options, I'd say that overturning Citizens United would be better for the health of the country.

I don't think term limits will change anything. Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi would just spend their terms grooming their apprentices, and the cycle would continue ad infinitum.

 
Because they are set in their ways and keep new ideas out of the debate.  Also, they have a huge head start in funding their re-election campaigns.
People don’t have to vote for them. If they want new ideas, they can vote for someone else. Senators are almost overwhelmingly liked by their constituents. 

 
All for term limits.

Serve your 4-8 years (8 if you get re-elected)......go back into the work force. It is not a job....it is serving your country. That has gotten lost. Career politicians are the blight on our country. It would go a long way to getting things done. I have always pounded the table that we should have term limits in congress and the senate. 

 
This is really weird.  Im not saying it didnt happen, or the report is #fakenews, however I find that in jobs, for me and for those I hire, folks must have the skill of quickly assimilating into the team dynamic.  If someone told me 6 years was not enough time to groom a teammate and get a tremendous amount of work done I would laugh at the notion.

 
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Based on the two options, I'd say that overturning Citizens United would be better for the health of the country.

I don't think term limits will change anything. Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi would just spend their terms grooming their apprentices, and the cycle would continue ad infinitum.
I dont think its that easy.  Think about corporations who lose a CEO/president.  More often than not the replacement is not a good choice.  If it was that easy for apprentices to perform well, it would happen in the private sector infinitum.

 
I dont think its that easy.  Think about corporations who lose a CEO/president.  More often than not the replacement is not a good choice.  If it was that easy for apprentices to perform well, it would happen in the private sector infinitum.
Isn’t that the argument for why term limits are bad as well?

 
All for term limits.

Serve your 4-8 years (8 if you get re-elected)......go back into the work force. It is not a job....it is serving your country. That has gotten lost. Career politicians are the blight on our country. It would go a long way to getting things done. I have always pounded the table that we should have term limits in congress and the senate. 
That’s fine but it means the more senior, well connected and well informed people in DC will be lobbyists. 

 
That’s fine but it means the more senior, well connected and well informed people in DC will be lobbyists. 
I dont know if I completely agree with that.  Also, once CU is overturned, why would it matter?

 
The President has an incredible amount of power as there’s only one. There are 535 members of Congress. 
I hear you and understand your point, I guess I just dont see it your way.  I believe in term limits for politicians unilaterally.

 
Citizens United was rightly decided.  If the first amendment protects anything, it protects the right of a film distributor to market their film about why people shouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton.  

Term limits are a terrible idea that actually increases the power of lobbyists.
Yea I agree. And I don't understand what "overturning Citizens United" would mean. 

Which part do people want to overturn? 

 
Citizens United was rightly decided.  If the first amendment protects anything, it protects the right of a film distributor to market their film about why people shouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton.  

Term limits are a terrible idea that actually increases the power of lobbyists.
Corporations may make political contributions.  Get that out.

 
Based on the two options, I'd say that overturning Citizens United would be better for the health of the country.

I don't think term limits will change anything. Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi would just spend their terms grooming their apprentices, and the cycle would continue ad infinitum.
I dont think its that easy.  Think about corporations who lose a CEO/president.  More often than not the replacement is not a good choice.  If it was that easy for apprentices to perform well, it would happen in the private sector infinitum.
I'm skeptical that the majority of replacement CEOs are bad choices.

Nonetheless, a bad CEO can be easily judged by tangible things (such as profits and stock price), and a really bad CEO doesn't need to be "judged" at all (because the company goes bankrupt and the problem resolves itself). The same can't be said of politicians, because a politician who is bad for one group of people, is often good for a different group of people.

As a case study, look at Florida's 1st Congressional district. It's very red -- in the past 5 presidential elections, it has voted for Republicans at a 69% rate. The previous Representative (Republican Jeff Miller) averaged 73% of the vote in his last 7 elections. Then he retired. His replacement is Matt Gaetz, who is widely considered to be an embarrassment to his party. And yet Gaetz still managed to get 67% of the vote in his last election. He'll never be voted out of office, no matter how many DUIs he gets. If term limits forced Gaetz to retire, then Republicans could just submit one of his drinking buddies as his replacement, and the cycle of disingenuousness would continue unabated.

 
I dont know if I completely agree with that.  Also, once CU is overturned, why would it matter?
My understanding is that Citizens United isn’t the big deal that some people think it is. Overturning it would do little to curtail the influence of big money in politics: http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/the-big-idea/2018/5/7/17325486/citizens-united-money-politics-dark-money-vouchers-primaries

Citizens didn’t upend our campaign finance system. It was a logical next step, given past court decisions.

Let’s put the hated decision into context. The inundation of elections with private cash is not the result of Citizens but rather was facilitated by the 1976 decision Buckley v. Valeo. That case established the legal framework sanctioning billions of dollars of independent private campaign spending. In it, the Court ruled that limits on campaign donations — direct donations to candidates — are constitutional but said it was unconstitutional to limit non-donation expenditures, such as independently funded advertisements.

Such independent spending — which cannot be coordinated with candidates, according to the Court — was protected under the First Amendment as not just speech but political speech. The idea is that money is a necessary instrument for supporting a political candidate, whether it’s paying for yard signs or taking out an ad in the newspaper.

Not unreasonably, the Court ruled that limitations on independent expenditures would constitute limitations on one’s ability to support a candidate through any number of media. Placing a dollar limit on such expenditures would arbitrarily prevent certain kinds of campaign support simply by the fact of how expensive they are.

Our inability to trace campaign donations to their source — the dark money issue — is the result of the lack of federal regulations to make disclosure mandatory. And such regulations are legal; the Court said as much in Citizens, with eight of nine justices agreeing on that point! The only thing standing in the way of transparency is congressional stonewalling. In 2010, Republican senators defeated a disclosure law 59 to 39, which would have made it more difficult for donors to use legal loopholes to hide their identities.

Citizens simply has not had the seismic legal impact that many think. Since Buckley protected money as speech, the only question was whether corporations were legitimate speakers. It may surprise some to hear, but the Court had already answered this question in 1978. In First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti, the Supreme Court recognized a corporate right to free speech, concluding that the value of speech in the course of political debate does not depend on the identity of the speaker. Citizens simply followed the precedent of these two cases.

So when liberals intone that “corporations aren’t people,” thinking they are making a knock-down argument against Citizens, they miss the point. Citizens did not make corporations persons. And corporations do not need to be persons to receive First Amendment protections. Citizens upheld the liberty, provided by Bellotti, of corporations to speak, and they speak under the rules provided by Buckley.
 
That said, I still voted for Citizens United in this poll. Overturning it wouldn’t do much at all while term limits would be actively harmful.

 
Corporations may make political contributions.  Get that out.
Let's start with in-kind contributions made by corporations.  Specifically, the New York Times corporation, which publicly encouraged people to vote for Warren or Klobuchar.  We should give the Trump administration the ability to regulate this sort of thing, and then we'll talk about how to handle other forms of corporate political activity.

 
Term limits & congressional pay raises have always been the two stoopitest, most feckless issues in the political domain. They used to be how i identified lightweights & neophytes before so many identifiers popped up in the wake of viewpoint media

 
I’ve been swayed by this forum on term limits. I still don’t think congressman or senator should be a career, but I understand the influence by lobbyists argument.  I’m not sure what the answer is.

 
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May be a spinoff here...but the thought of a presidential term being one 6 year term and thats it.  No running for re-election basically months into office.  You get 6 years (to span over different sessions of congress) and thats it.  I think it would save a ton of mess (and probably money people are spending in ridiculous amounts on these campaigns.

 
Censorship is bad, especially of political speech. (Citizens United was about speech, not campaign contributions.) The undue influence of money in politics is a real problem, and we should be trying to come up with constitutionally valid solutions to it. But not solutions that require repealing any part of the First Amendment, IMO.

Term limits are complicated. There are good arguments against them (as well as commonly stated bad arguments against them). I lean toward favoring them because Jeff Flake (a stand-in for legislators who aren’t running for reelection) is less bad than Mitch McConnell (a stand-in for legislators who’ve accumulated an bundance of power through seniority).

 
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We are missing each other.  Have you read the links I have provided or are you being snarky?
I haven't read any links. I've read the majority opinion and the dissent numerous times in the past. I have a negative Pavlovian reaction whenever somebody seems to suggest that the case was about corporate campaign contributions (or that it says corporations are people, or money is speech...).

 
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I haven't read any links. I've read the majority opinion and the dissent numerous times in the past. I have a negative Pavlovian reaction whenever somebody seems to suggest that the case was about corporate campaign contributions (or that it says corporations are people, or money is speech...).
So this is my rub, that's what happened.  You are welcome to believe the bolded isnt the case with CU, however it is.  Corporations are infact people who can now make unlimited political contributions.  If we want an amendment instead of reversing CU, or overall campaign finance reform, Im OK with that.  However, corporations are currently people.  That is wrong IMHO.

 
So this is my rub, that's what happened.  You are welcome to believe the bolded isnt the case with CU, however it is.  Corporations are infact people who can now make unlimited political contributions.  If we want an amendment instead of reversing CU, or overall campaign finance reform, Im OK with that.  However, corporations are currently people.  That is wrong IMHO.
Can you quote the part of Citizens United that says or depends on the idea that corporations are people, or that money is speech? They don't exist.

Corporations are legal persons in the sense that they can sue and be sued. That is not controversial in the slightest. Beyond that, whether corporations are people has nothing to do with Citizens United.

Money is obviously not speech in the eyes of the Citizens United court. That's why Citizens United did not strike down the complete ban on monetary contributions by corporations to the campaigns of political candidates. If money were speech, such a ban would be unconstitutional.

 
Can you quote the part of Citizens United that says or depends on the idea that corporations are people, or that money is speech? They don't exist.

Corporations are legal persons in the sense that they can sue and be sued. That is not controversial in the slightest. Beyond that, whether corporations are people has nothing to do with Citizens United.

Money is obviously not speech in the eyes of the Citizens United court. That's why Citizens United did not strike down the complete ban on monetary contributions by corporations to the campaigns of political candidates. If money were speech, such a ban would be unconstitutional.
This sounds like if I were ever to have attempted briefing that case, I'd be lost on the holding. I don't doubt your claims; they seem confusing enough to have made quite the piecemeal decision.

 
Can you quote the part of Citizens United that says or depends on the idea that corporations are people, or that money is speech? They don't exist.

Corporations are legal persons in the sense that they can sue and be sued. That is not controversial in the slightest. Beyond that, whether corporations are people has nothing to do with Citizens United.

Money is obviously not speech in the eyes of the Citizens United court. That's why Citizens United did not strike down the complete ban on monetary contributions by corporations to the campaigns of political candidates. If money were speech, such a ban would be unconstitutional.
https://represent.us/action/citizens-united-2-2/

What is Citizens United?

“Citizens United” is shorthand for a landmark 2010 Supreme Court case – Citizens United v. FEC – that changed the face of campaign finance and money in politics in the United States.

Citizens United overturned certain long-standing restrictions on political fundraising and spending – transforming the entire political landscape of the country.

Most notably, Citizens United granted corporations, nonprofits, and unions unlimited political spending power.
Should I find more?

 
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What do you think of mods manipulating board software to censor the speech of posters in a political forum?

For those who stay out of the pinned threads, yes that actually happened here.

A mod manipulated the Invision software to change a specific phrase about Trump to deranged rant.
Not the right thread for this.

 
did the CU decision change what a corporation could give to a PAC?
Yes, both directly and even more so, indirectly.  Shortly after Citizen United, the D.C. Circuit decided Speechnow v. FEC, which was the decision that made SuperPACs legal.  The Speechnow court believed that Citizens United dictated the result in that case.  

 
Yes, both directly and even more so, indirectly.  Shortly after Citizen United, the D.C. Circuit decided Speechnow v. FEC, which was the decision that made SuperPACs legal.  The Speechnow court believed that Citizens United dictated the result in that case.  
Thanks. Helped me find this Wiki entry:

On September 18, 2009, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia ruled in Emily's List v. FEC.[1]The case's main impact was to invalidate certain rules of the Federal Election Commission (FEC) as to what constituted a “solicitation” by a federally registered PAC, the proceeds of which were subject to reporting under federal regulation. However, Emily's List forms a critical book-end to a year (short a day) of critical change to the financing of American political campaigns. At the other book end, 364 days later, lies Advisory Opinion Request (AOR) 2010-20 (NDPAC) on which the Commissioners deadlocked, and in which Emily's List once again plays a role.

Between these book ends lies a seminal ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States, Citizens United v. FEC[2]and a second ruling from the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, SpeechNOW.org v. FEC[3]that applied the Supreme Court's ruling in Citizens United. Following these cases came two contentious FEC Advisory Opinions (AOs) applying these rulings to campaign finance regulations, AO 2010-09 (Club for Growth) and AO 2010-11 (Commonsense Ten).

At issue is who can spend money, in what manner, and up to what limits. Some 5000 regular Political Action Committees (PACs), about 2/3 of which are “connected” to a corporation, union, or trade/membership association, are registered with the FEC and make direct contributions to candidates. There are more thousands of trade and member associations, unions and corporate interests, and an ever-growing stream of individual contributors and players in this marketplace of political ideas that may make direct or independent expenditures that support or oppose candidates. Changes to the campaign finance landscape affect each of these political participants, and continually alter the balance of influence amongst them.
 
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I'm good with term limits but an option of coming back after a term out of office. Maybe the next person can do a better job and if they can't you can get re-elected. If you fail miserably you are gone unless you got a bunch of idiots voting you in.

 
I'm good with term limits but an option of coming back after a term out of office. Maybe the next person can do a better job and if they can't you can get re-elected. If you fail miserably you are gone unless you got a bunch of idiots voting you in.
I could maybe be convinced of term limits for Senate- maybe. It’s ridiculous for the House though. I also hate that it’s an attack on the freedom and will of the voters. If 90% of the people want John Doe as their Rep, they shouldn’t be prevented from it just because of how long he’s served.

 
I could maybe be convinced of term limits for Senate- maybe. It’s ridiculous for the House though. I also hate that it’s an attack on the freedom and will of the voters. If 90% of the people want John Doe as their Rep, they shouldn’t be prevented from it just because of how long he’s served.
Yeah, it's a huge problem. Some of these people try their best, then there's useless people that do nothing for the country yet have convinced their voters to keep electing them. Maxine, McConnell, etc. Both sides have a lot of useless losers that continue to get elected.

 
Presidential term limits still seem like a good idea, right?

Once a President is in office, he could hypothetically use his powers improperly to tip the scale in favor of his own reelection; and the longer he remains in office, the more cumulative things he can do in that regard. It's not hard to envision how a lack of term limits would be very helpful to an aspiring dictator.

 
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Presidential term limits still seem like a good idea, right?

Once a President is in office, he could hypothetically use his powers improperly to tip the scale in favor of his own reelection; and the longer he remains in office, the more cumulative things he can do in that regard. It's not hard to envision how a lack of term limits would be very helpful to an aspiring dictator.
 A must. 

 

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