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Government Response To The Coronavirus (6 Viewers)

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timschochet said:
One point the Australian article makes: no matter what the cost we need to block all travel in and out of the United States until a vaccine is found. Trade only, no people. 

This goes against everything I believe in, naturally but it may indeed be necessary. We’re talking about shutting off this country for a year possibly two. All other countries will likely do the same. The long term effects are incalculable.

Any thoughts about this? 
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A simple 14-21 day quarantine should be sufficient. 

 
The other option is to come up with a quicker test. We can make everyone coming here take the test and refuse entry to anyone that fails. Of course it would mean a lot of bureaucracy and delays but it might be better than simply keeping every one out. 

It would also mean, and I hate to say this, finishing Trump’s wall. It might have to be built after all. 

 
SoBeDad said:
What about blood tests that detect exposure? 
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If we can rapidly test for that and have proof that you can't get reinfected/be a carrier travel all you want. Basically, a complete global shutdown isn't feasible or necessary but monitoring all travel is.

 
timschochet said:
The other option is to come up with a quicker test. We can make everyone coming here take the test and refuse entry to anyone that fails. Of course it would mean a lot of bureaucracy and delays but it might be better than simply keeping every one out. 

It would also mean, and I hate to say this, finishing Trump’s wall. It might have to be built after all. 
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Mexico has reported 405 cases and 5 deaths.  Maybe Mexico will pay for the wall after all.

 
timschochet said:
Right. But what will be realistic? Not how long but under what conditions? 

There’s a bit of logic I’m not getting here. Let’s say we all hunker down and shut down our economy until we flatten the curve and the existing contagion dies out. Fine. But if we then go back to normal, what’s to keep the virus from coming right back again? 

That’s the part I don’t understand. 
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It will likely come back again. Unlike this time if our immediate response is more appropriate then we should not need to repeat what we are doing right now. At least not to these levels anyway. The problem is expecting us to learn from these mistakes. 

 
Some Las Vegas resorts/casinos showing room availability starting April 17th. (30 day city shutdown goes through April 16th) Other properties starting to to say they'll be opening back up May 1st. Not sure anyone else here will care about that as much as I do, but as a resident of Las Vegas, when the day does come it's gonna be like Christmas, New Years, and the 4th of July all rolled in one. Can't wait to see my city re-open.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Some Las Vegas resorts/casinos showing room availability starting April 17th. (30 day city shutdown goes through April 16th) Other properties starting to to say they'll be opening back up May 1st. Not sure anyone else here will care about that as much as I do, but as a resident of Las Vegas, when the day does come it's gonna be like Christmas, New Years, and the 4th of July all rolled in one. Can't wait to see my city re-open.
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Understand the feeling- but let’s be honest. They can put whatever date they want but until people are comfortable (which means this situation is resolved somehow) you’re not going to get people to come. 

 
timschochet said:
Understand the feeling- but let’s be honest. They can put whatever date they want but until people are comfortable (which means this situation is resolved somehow) you’re not going to get people to come. 
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I can't show any proof of how I know that they're coming, but living here and hearing about the amount of people just waiting for official word that they can book their flights and rooms, I can tell you, it's going to be packed here once everything re-opens. I just booked a room today at the Venetian in June for my friends and I.

I guess the most convincing proof I can give you is all the conventions which cancelled  during the initial days of the pandemic are now rushing to book new dates. People love Vegas and this shutdown is just building pent up demand.

 
timschochet said:
Well I strongly disagree with you about ALL of this.

A really bad flu season doesn’t result in a complete lack of hospital beds and ventilators. Not sure what you’re looking at here. This virus is overwhelming our medical system. 
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Haven't read anything about a complete lack of hospital beds or ventilators in the u.s. Our medical system has yet to be overrun but there are a lot of warnings from a lot of people about it. 

 
Agree with MrA. I think plenty will still go...just as plenty we’re reluctant to stay home and still are reluctant.

Its why rhetoric pushing us towards normalcy without support of the medical community is wrong and dangerous.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
So no, liberals who keep poo pooing the drug, it hasn't stopped working. And no, conservatives asking for recalls of Governors who placed restrictions on chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, they're not keeping it from Covid-19 patients to spite Trump.
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I haven't see any data to suggest that it's just liberals who are "poo pooing" the drug. So it seems weird for your analogy to be based on that false premise.

(But if you were using "liberal" as a synonym for "people who treat the President's hyperbole with skepticism", then I apologize.)

 
timschochet said:
The other option is to come up with a quicker test. We can make everyone coming here take the test and refuse entry to anyone that fails. Of course it would mean a lot of bureaucracy and delays but it might be better than simply keeping every one out. 

It would also mean, and I hate to say this, finishing Trump’s wall. It might have to be built after all. 
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Huh?

 
[scooter] said:
I haven't see any data to suggest that it's just liberals who are "poo pooing" the drug. So it seems weird for your analogy to be based on that false premise.
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I have - repeatedly. And like I said, I've seen an equal number of conservatives behave that way as well. Why you have a hard time believing that people act inappropriately partisan or that one side is immune to it at times like - well, that's on you. I'm not trying to change your beliefs and honestly don't think it's possible with many people on either side.

So no, it's not weird. I can't pour out of my mind everything I've read and witnessed. As doggedly as I tried in the past 7 days to share information, the pessimists weren't swayed an inch and thankfully the optimists didn't lose any hope. Like I said above, people are going to believe what they want to believe. And they're going to seek out the info that goes along with their beliefs in the places they're comfortable looking. I've read 100's of articles, studies, journals, and papers on these drugs in the past week. And I've read 1000's of reactions to them. It's not surprising that you haven't seen the same evidence of this behavior that I have. And it wouldn't be surprising if you don't share my same optimism. There's one difference between our comments though. I readily acknowledge the bad behavior coming from both sides.

 
bostonfred said:
What actions has he taken to handle the crisis that you support?  I honestly don't know what you think he's doing well - can you explain? 
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Agreed.  He's in an extremely difficult position as a leader of this country.  Maybe an impossible position.  But he's done nothing to inspire confidence that we will get through this.  

 
timschochet said:
Trump is right about one thing: at some point we do have to get back to some form of “normal.” Easter sounds like way too soon. But it’s going to have to happen sometime long before we have a vaccine (which is at least a year away.) How are we going to manage that? 
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With more medical supplies and a lot of people who have gotten the virus and are past it.  As well as hopefully more effective methods of fighting it.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Some Las Vegas resorts/casinos showing room availability starting April 17th. (30 day city shutdown goes through April 16th) Other properties starting to to say they'll be opening back up May 1st. Not sure anyone else here will care about that as much as I do, but as a resident of Las Vegas, when the day does come it's gonna be like Christmas, New Years, and the 4th of July all rolled in one. Can't wait to see my city re-open.
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I just found out that we have our first confirmed case in my small town. She was in Vegas a couple weeks ago for a conference. 

 
Mr Anonymous said:
[scooter] said:
I haven't see any data to suggest that it's just liberals who are "poo pooing" the drug. So it seems weird for your analogy to be based on that false premise.
Click to expand...
I have - repeatedly. And like I said, I've seen an equal number of conservatives behave that way as well.
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Then why bother with the conservative vs. liberal analogy in the first place?

If an equal number of conservatives and liberals are poo-pooing the drug, then it's not a conservative-vs-liberal scenario. At all.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
I have - repeatedly. And like I said, I've seen an equal number of conservatives behave that way as well. Why you have a hard time believing that people act inappropriately partisan or that one side is immune to it at times like - well, that's on you. I'm not trying to change your beliefs and honestly don't think it's possible with many people on either side.

So no, it's not weird. I can't pour out of my mind everything I've read and witnessed. As doggedly as I tried in the past 7 days to share information, the pessimists weren't swayed an inch and thankfully the optimists didn't lose any hope. Like I said above, people are going to believe what they want to believe. And they're going to seek out the info that goes along with their beliefs in the places they're comfortable looking. I've read 100's of articles, studies, journals, and papers on these drugs in the past week. And I've read 1000's of reactions to them. It's not surprising that you haven't seen the same evidence of this behavior that I have. And it wouldn't be surprising if you don't share my same optimism. There's one difference between our comments though. I readily acknowledge the bad behavior coming from both sides.
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In short, you’ve misrepresented the extant research, which amplified by others doing the same thing is how pseudoscience thrives and causes harm:  Build unsubstantiated/disproportionate optimism based on anecdotes and opinions, while stashing away or others deliberately avoiding and hiding evidence that is contrary to what is being peddled.  The emerging consensus is that what anecdotal “evidence” exists in support for hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine is a combination of placebo, flimsy theory, and spurious correlation.  
 

And for those who have a political stake in promoting these drugs, it has provided a convenient distraction and talking point to turn attention away from inconvenient realities, like failed testing regimen, overburdened hospitals, lack of federal support for supplies, and the deaths of those who suffered because the president failed to act.  
 

It is for that reason, this is the last I will engage in this topic, but I think it needs to be pointed out this discussion of this class of drugs is the stuff of charlatans and pseudoscience, nothing more. 

 
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Unemployment numbers going to be grim tomorrow.  Perhaps 10%.

Can only wonder he damage that could have been averted by an earlier, swift, coherent response that we had a 2 month head start and a playbook literally titled “Playbook” the president never bothered to read.

 
Wow. Entire world pulling one way, same message, same sacrifice, same buy in.  

But not Trump’s America.   Nope, it is heading down an icy road with no guardrails and followers are cheering all the way off the cliff.  

Disaster on the horizon.  

 
While doctors wait in vain for N95 masks, a bipartisan group of 130 lawmakers made their real priorities clear when they issued a call for a massive buildup of F-35 jets. “Full funding is needed for the delivery of new weapons and critical capabilities necessary to keep the F-35 ahead of our adversaries,” the lawmakers wrote in a March 19 letter to the Pentagon, demanding 98 new stealth fighters at a cost of $94 million each.

If anything has been more elusive than protective masks—and less functional than the accident-prone F-35—it is America’s coronavirus testing system. Testing kits were magically provided to entire NBA teams and A-list celebrities with symptoms, but ask any average American in need where they plan to get screened, and you’re almost certain to draw a blank. As Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, confessed in testimony to Congress,“The idea of anybody getting [tested] easily the way people in other countries are doing it, we are not set up for that. Do I think we should be? Yes. But we are not.”

Inside China, an already effective coronavirus screening regimen is likely to improve thanks to an innovative test that can be administered in airports, and that produces results in just 40 minutes. The creator of the groundbreaking test, Weihong Tan, was a professor at the University of Florida’s cancer research lab until last year, when the Department of Justice targeted him with a McCarthy-style investigation. Accused by a Cold War-crazed U.S. government of failing to disclose Chinese funding for his department, he returned to Hunan University, where he found ample government support for his lifesaving research.
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The new Cold War with China has cost lives against coronavirus

 
cobalt_27 said:
In short, you’ve misrepresented the extant research, which amplified by others doing the same thing is how pseudoscience thrives and causes harm:  Build unsubstantiated/disproportionate optimism based on anecdotes and opinions, while stashing away or others deliberately avoiding and hiding evidence that is contrary to what is being peddled.  The emerging consensus is that what anecdotal “evidence” exists in support for hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine is a combination of placebo, flimsy theory, and spurious correlation.  
 

And for those who have a political stake in promoting these drugs, it has provided a convenient distraction and talking point to turn attention away from inconvenient realities, like failed testing regimen, overburdened hospitals, lack of federal support for supplies, and the deaths of those who suffered because the president failed to act.  
 

It is for that reason, this is the last I will engage in this topic, but I think it needs to be pointed out this discussion of this class of drugs is the stuff of charlatans and pseudoscience, nothing more. 
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Not to mention there are real people that depend on hydroxychloroquine in order to survive today.  Spreading rumors about them at the presidential level has led to hoarding and bad behavior to the extent it is hard for people that need that drug to get it.  I bear no ill will towards @Mr Anonymous about that, his information helped us order a refill for my wife early on.  In fact, it is the type of info I love from my fellow  FBGs

Seeing this type of rumor parroted by the president is very harmful though.  If this is a real help to COVID-19, it is another example of where we need the federal gov't to facilitate production.

 
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Slapdash said:
Not to mention there are real people that depend on hydroxychloroquine in order to survive today.  Spreading rumors about them at the presidential level has led to hoarding and bad behavior to the extent it is hard for people that need that drug to get it.  I bear no ill will towards @Mr Anonymous about that, his information helped us order a refill for my wife early on. 

Seeing this type of rumor parroted by the president is very harmful though.  If this is a real help to COVID-19, it is another example of where we need the federal gov't to facilitate production.
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Collateral damage to the system when the presidents spouts bull#### and his supporters go the lab and repeat the behavior.

 
bostonfred said:
What actions has he taken to handle the crisis that you support?  I honestly don't know what you think he's doing well - can you explain? 
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Not over reacting.  Providing a balance between the economi impact and the health impact.  We can't save every life.  The US is probably going to lose on the order of 100,000 people.  Our medical system is going to be stressed to the max.  But we can't socially isolate 300,000,000 people indefinitely.  We must allow as much normal activity while still taking precautions.  

 
timschochet said:
One point the Australian article makes: no matter what the cost we need to block all travel in and out of the United States until a vaccine is found. Trade only, no people. 

This goes against everything I believe in, naturally but it may indeed be necessary. We’re talking about shutting off this country for a year possibly two. All other countries will likely do the same. The long term effects are incalculable.

Any thoughts about this? 
Click to expand...
We are the place that will have had it the worst. We are not even trying to stop spread, just slow it down. Most Americans will have had COVID, by mid summer. That even assumes we are getting better at social distancing. If not by Mid April. 

 
jon_mx said:
Not over reacting.  Providing a balance between the economi impact and the health impact.  We can't save every life.  The US is probably going to lose on the order of 100,000 people.  Our medical system is going to be stressed to the max.  But we can't socially isolate 300,000,000 people indefinitely.  We must allow as much normal activity while still taking precautions.  
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I don't think you named anything he actually did when explaining what you think he did right.  Like not a single thing.  

 
jon_mx said:
Not over reacting.  Providing a balance between the economi impact and the health impact.  We can't save every life.  The US is probably going to lose on the order of 100,000 people.  Our medical system is going to be stressed to the max.  But we can't socially isolate 300,000,000 people indefinitely.  We must allow as much normal activity while still taking precautions.  
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Literally no other country on earth is taking this approach.  None.  

 
jon_mx said:
Not over reacting.  Providing a balance between the economi impact and the health impact.  We can't save every life.  The US is probably going to lose on the order of 100,000 people.  Our medical system is going to be stressed to the max.  But we can't socially isolate 300,000,000 people indefinitely.  We must allow as much normal activity while still taking precautions.  
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How are you coming up with 100k? With your approach there is no way there aren't at least 1 million deaths. I would put the number at 4 million. 

 
Drunken Cowboy said:
How are you coming up with 100k? With your approach there is no way there aren't at least 1 million deaths. I would put the number at 4 million. 
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You would also be participating in the type of inaccurate fear mongering that Dr. Birx called out and shot down this afternoon. 

 
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timschochet said:
Where are you getting this? I haven’t read this anywhere. 
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There are certainly more cases than have been confirmed via testing. I would put the number at about 300k. We are something like 9 or 10 doubling periods from getting to the point where the majority of the population has COVID. 

We have been doubling every 2-3 days. That puts us there in Mid April. 

One of the press conferences mentioned a goal of 8 day doubling time for flattening the curve. That puts us at 2-3 months away.

 
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