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James Daulton

Government Response To The Coronavirus

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

People have been calling it the "Wuhan coronavirus" for months.  It was in the title of the thread in the FFA until it got changed recently.

Yep. SJW signal went off...

 

10 hours ago, NorvilleBarnes said:

West Nile, Marburg, Spanish Flu.... But hey, maybe you guys are right, maybe Trump is calling it Wuhan Virus for the sole purpose of unfairly blaming China. 

The thing that seems funny to me is that there are so many things to legitimately criticize Trump for, people are going after the name "Wuhan Virus"?

 Not just viruses either. Even Lyme disease is named after a place. 

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9 minutes ago, KPD said:

So to be clear, you want a rosy future in which everyone catches this, gets immune to it, and life goes on.

I don't think the "panic" is killing people yet.  And go ask people in Italy if it is a great idea for everyone to get this thing, I'm sure they are on board with your plan.

Current count in Italy: 9,172 confirmed cases, 463 deaths.  5% fatality rate

Go ahead and tell us how Italy's population is old, etc.  Sure that's true, but we have a lot of elderly people here in the US too.

Wishing that this disease will spread like wildfire across the country is reckless imo.  And how exactly would it save lives?  The less people that get the disease, the fewer people will die from it.  Simple math.

Two types of people spread the sub-1% garbage.  Diehard trump supporters and extreme optimists.  Tim is in that second category.  
 

A good trait but you have to look at reality.  The death rate thing isn’t even an argument anymore.  Yes with extremely good medical care and a younger population, it’s possible to get sub 1%. 
 

But if this becomes a pandemic inside a country, death rates will soar as doctors have to make tough calls on who gets the ventilators/ICU.  We see that happening in Italy right now, we saw it happen in China, and we think it’s happening in Iran. (Who knows what’s really happening there)

 

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4 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Yep. SJW signal went off...

 

 Not just viruses either. Even Lyme disease is named after a place. 

I disagree. There's a reason Tucker and the GOP are now adding Chinese behind it. Nobody has called it the Wuhan virus for over a month.

Do we know why it was called the Spanish flu? Because I'm pretty sure 30mm people (or whatever) that died from it weren't all Spaniards.

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Charlie Kirk just tweeted this - 

"Now, more than ever, we need the wall With China Virus spreading across the globe, the US stands a chance if we can control of our borders President Trump is making it happen I explain why this matters & SO MUCH MORE!"

--

And Trump retweeted with this message - 

"Going up fast. We need the Wall more than ever!"

--

But its purely coincidence that everyone is now calling it the Chinese virus. 🙄

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Posted (edited)

I mean it is obvious that a wall is needed to stop the virus from spreading.  if only China had some kind of "great wall" then it would have never spread.

They are so lucky that so many people are lazy

Edited by hammerva
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18 minutes ago, KPD said:

So to be clear, you want a rosy future in which everyone catches this, gets immune to it, and life goes on.

I don't think the "panic" is killing people yet.  And go ask people in Italy if it is a great idea for everyone to get this thing, I'm sure they are on board with your plan.

Current count in Italy: 9,172 confirmed cases, 463 deaths.  5% fatality rate

Go ahead and tell us how Italy's population is old, etc.  Sure that's true, but we have a lot of elderly people here in the US too.

Wishing that this disease will spread like wildfire across the country is reckless imo.  And how exactly would it save lives?  The less people that get the disease, the fewer people will die from it.  Simple math.

I don’t want to keep arguing this point, mostly because some very smart people around here offered some counterarguments which caused me to reconsider my position. To answer your question, I believed that removing the panic would save lives because the current attention to this one virus is threatening to overwhelm hospitals and our entire medical system. 

I want to find a way to stem the panic. I thought a good way to do that would be for more people to catch mild cases of the disease and quickly recover. Whether you agree with that or not, it’s not a “reckless” position because I have no specific plan to make that happen; there isn’t one. But it may not be the best way to stem the panic; I have no idea. We need to find some way to do it, because shutting down schools and businesses until this miraculously goes away is untenable. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

I don’t want to keep arguing this point, mostly because some very smart people around here offered some counterarguments which caused me to reconsider my position. To answer your question, I believed that removing the panic would save lives because the current attention to this one virus is threatening to overwhelm hospitals and our entire medical system. 

I want to find a way to stem the panic. I thought a good way to do that would be for more people to catch mild cases of the disease and quickly recover. Whether you agree with that or not, it’s not a “reckless” position because I have no specific plan to make that happen; there isn’t one. But it may not be the best way to stem the panic; I have no idea. We need to find some way to do it, because shutting down schools and businesses until this miraculously goes away is untenable. 

Well, it might seem untenable right now.  but looking at Italy where they have no choice to do so, keeping them all open and filled with people is untenable.  Smoothing out and limiting transmission so as to not overwhelm the healthcare system is the only way to bring the fatality rate down as much as we can.   Read the Italian doctor's real life experience posted above.  That's what we are looking forward to if we just keep going business as usual until the spread is out of control.

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5 minutes ago, hammerva said:

I mean it is obvious that a wall is needed to stop the virus from spreading.  if only China had some kind of "great wall" then it would have never spread.

They are so lucky that so many people are lazy

This is just lazy, you can do better. 

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15 minutes ago, shader said:

Two types of people spread the sub-1% garbage.  Diehard trump supporters and extreme optimists.  Tim is in that second category.  
 

A good trait but you have to look at reality.  The death rate thing isn’t even an argument anymore.  Yes with extremely good medical care and a younger population, it’s possible to get sub 1%. 
 

 

 

I don’t see how you can possibly make this assertion. The under 1% is a suspicion, nothing more, but in fact there is no way to know, not for several years, unless we test a large sample of the population which no country has come close to doing. Even South Korea which has tested the most people is not testing people with mild symptoms because most of those folks figure they just have a cold. 

 

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There is no panic here..  yet.

When there is, you will know it and then it will be too late.  You'll have to hope no one you love needs critical medical attention because they might not be able to get it.

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It's not that bad the flu is much worse the Democrats and the fake news media are just overhyping this to bring down "Trump" l mean we have the flu all the time and the stock market doesn't behave this way and anyway it's not my fault it started in China we need the wall to keep out the virus from Mexico.

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26 minutes ago, shader said:

Two types of people spread the sub-1% garbage.  Diehard trump supporters and extreme optimists.  Tim is in that second category.  
 

A good trait but you have to look at reality.  The death rate thing isn’t even an argument anymore.  Yes with extremely good medical care and a younger population, it’s possible to get sub 1%. 
 

But if this becomes a pandemic inside a country, death rates will soar as doctors have to make tough calls on who gets the ventilators/ICU.  We see that happening in Italy right now, we saw it happen in China, and we think it’s happening in Iran. (Who knows what’s really happening there)

 

I was listening to Sirius XM which has a station dedicated to the pandemic 24/7.  Yesterday they had two virologists that disagree pretty strongly with you.   They both said that when all is said and done the likely fatality numbers will be sub 1%.

Now don't hate on me, that is what they were saying and they seemed to know what they were talking about.

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Just now, Godsbrother said:

I was listening to Sirius XM which has a station dedicated to the pandemic 24/7.  Yesterday they had two virologists that disagree pretty strongly with you.   They both said that when all is said and done the likely fatality numbers will be sub 1%.

Now don't hate on me, that is what they were saying and they seemed to know what they were talking about.

If enough people get it, 1% could still mean many thousands of deaths.  I'm not sure that the rate is even the most important number right now.

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The ignorance and propaganda is working. I’ve had numerous students tell me we need to stop letting Asian people in the country and maybe remove the ones already here.

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1 minute ago, Ilov80s said:

The ignorance and propaganda is working. I’ve had numerous students tell me we need to stop letting Asian people in the country and maybe remove the ones already here.

Next step now seems to be spreading lies about Obama and H1N1

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20 minutes ago, McBokonon said:

It's not that bad the flu is much worse the Democrats and the fake news media are just overhyping this to bring down "Trump" l mean we have the flu all the time and the stock market doesn't behave this way and anyway it's not my fault it started in China we need the wall to keep out the virus from Mexico.

THIS IS NOT THE FLU. 

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2 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

The ignorance and propaganda is working. I’ve had numerous students tell me we need to stop letting Asian people in the country and maybe remove the ones already here.

Well it is okay but apparently all of the Asians are going to Mexico first so the wall will take care of that

 

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17 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don’t want to keep arguing this point, mostly because some very smart people around here offered some counterarguments which caused me to reconsider my position. To answer your question, I believed that removing the panic would save lives because the current attention to this one virus is threatening to overwhelm hospitals and our entire medical system. 

I want to find a way to stem the panic. I thought a good way to do that would be for more people to catch mild cases of the disease and quickly recover. Whether you agree with that or not, it’s not a “reckless” position because I have no specific plan to make that happen; there isn’t one. But it may not be the best way to stem the panic; I have no idea. We need to find some way to do it, because shutting down schools and businesses until this miraculously goes away is untenable. 

The problem is the attitude of ‘preventing panic’. What we need to be doing is taking the needed steps to make sure that the panic isn’t justified. With my health and age, I’m unlikely to get a severe case or even know that I got it. However, I work as a pharmacist near a retirement community and could expose them to it if I get a mild case. It is reckless to hope that more people catch a mild case and recover because they can still spread it. Lessening the panic is not worth that risk.

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21 minutes ago, McBokonon said:

It's not that bad the flu is much worse the Democrats and the fake news media are just overhyping this to bring down "Trump" l mean we have the flu all the time and the stock market doesn't behave this way and anyway it's not my fault it started in China we need the wall to keep out the virus from Mexico.

Oh wait I didn't understand the sarcasm. Tough these days. Sorry bout that. 

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1 minute ago, Jackstraw said:

THIS IS NOT THE FLU. 

I don't think he was being serious.  Although I am sure there are others on here that will copy this and use it now

 

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Just now, Juxtatarot said:

Payroll tax cut.  Good idea? Bad idea?

 

Why not just have the Fed fire up the printers and send everyone an unlimited debit card?  You think there is a run on toilet paper now, just wait.

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5 minutes ago, joffer said:

Reading twitter about this is absurd. 

They arent trying to kill immigrants with smallpox blankets, they probably realized it is a bad idea to give people that literally do everything they can to stall this process a perfect excuse to stall the process with a sign in the courthouse that says stay home if you feel sick. 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Payroll tax cut.  Good idea? Bad idea?

 

Not sure but its weird the only policy objective they ever truly wanted is the exact policy solution they want. In an election year when they're on the ropes. 

How about guaranteed sick leave? How about a public option for health care? how about restoring the funding for all the public healthcare infrastructure you removed. There are a myriad of policy options but this is the one they come up with. If that was the first tax cut they had proposed I'd be doing cartwheels. We have a trillion dollar deficit that is likely to expand greatly given the current situation. Then lets thorw a couple hundred million or more on top of that.....PER YEAR. It's ridiculous.

It's unsustainable. And it will be used as ammunition down the line as ammunition to shred the already weak public safety net.  

Edited by Jackstraw
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2 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Payroll tax cut.  Good idea? Bad idea?

 

The virus is indifferent to tax cuts. 

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1 minute ago, huthut said:

The virus is indifferent to tax cuts. 

Yes this does nothing for the pandemic and not sure it does much to ease fears on wall street or consumers.   Seems like an odd response to the crisis but what do I know?

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9 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Reading twitter about this is absurd. 

They arent trying to kill immigrants with smallpox blankets, they probably realized it is a bad idea to give people that literally do everything they can to stall this process a perfect excuse to stall the process with a sign in the courthouse that says stay home if you feel sick. 

 

That's not very smart reasoning, though, is it? It seems like it'd be more important not to spread the coronavirus than to make sure some immigrants are kicked out immediately.

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2 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Yes this does nothing for the pandemic and not sure it does much to ease fears on wall street or consumers.   Seems like an odd response to the crisis but what do I know?

The stated purpose I heard was to help people pay for insurance/co-pays for coronavirus. Instead of actually helping people with government funded healthcare or paid sick leave. The announced tax cuts however have had the completely unintended consequence of the Dow Jones bouncing back somewhat. Totally unintended.

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4 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Reading twitter about this is absurd. 

They arent trying to kill immigrants with smallpox blankets, they probably realized it is a bad idea to give people that literally do everything they can to stall this process a perfect excuse to stall the process with a sign in the courthouse that says stay home if you feel sick. 

 

That’s a really strange way to look at public education of a spreading disease. If they are showing symptoms, they shouldn’t be in a courtroom illegal, legal or the staff working the cases. There is no good reason for taking down these educational signs unless they are inaccurate. The fact that you jump to the conclusion that they’re going to use it as a way to delay deportation is disgusting.

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4 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:
7 minutes ago, huthut said:

The virus is indifferent to tax cuts. 

Yes this does nothing for the pandemic

With a little bit extra in their pockets people can get out more.   Maybe travel a bit.  Fill up arenas.  Etc.

(I hope everyone is rolling their eyes right about now.)

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Just now, whoknew said:

That's not very smart reasoning, though, is it? It seems like it'd be more important not to spread the coronavirus than to make sure some immigrants are kicked out immediately.

You are presuming that the signs are the only to prevent the spread. 

But i mean i guess nothing bad ever happens once warning labels started being printed. 

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Just now, parasaurolophus said:

You are presuming that the signs are the only to prevent the spread. 

But i mean i guess nothing bad ever happens once warning labels started being printed. 

Ok I'm confused now.

Yes I assumed that the posters were put up to inform the public, help stop the spread, etc. Basic public health reasons.

What is your point? That there was a nefarious reason to put them up? 

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1 minute ago, whoknew said:

Ok I'm confused now.

Yes I assumed that the posters were put up to inform the public, help stop the spread, etc. Basic public health reasons.

What is your point? That there was a nefarious reason to put them up? 

 I forgot the word way in my first sentence. 

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5 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

That’s a really strange way to look at public education of a spreading disease. If they are showing symptoms, they shouldn’t be in a courtroom illegal, legal or the staff working the cases. There is no good reason for taking down these educational signs unless they are inaccurate. The fact that you jump to the conclusion that they’re going to use it as a way to delay deportation is disgusting.

Blah blah. Virtue signal blah blah. 

Courtrooms the only places they get their info? 

Its also like you have never heard of lawyers. 

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1 minute ago, parasaurolophus said:

You are presuming that the signs are the only to prevent the spread. 

But i mean i guess nothing bad ever happens once warning labels started being printed. 

Public education is a huge factor in containing the spread of a virus. It’s especially important in the immigrant community because they are often around high risk groups and often don’t have information readily available in the native language. But no it’s definitely more important that we deport them as quickly as possible. These signs clearly are just to give them an excuse to not show up in court.

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22 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Payroll tax cut.  Good idea? Bad idea?

 

(1) What specific tax-uses are being de-funded?

(2) Does that de-funding serve a previous intent re: entitlements?

(3) Would those who suffer job loss/interrupted pay receive any relief at all? 

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2 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

 I forgot the word way in my first sentence. 

 

This is a really weird stance to take.

I admit that when I first read that article, I didn't understand why they would do that. It doesn't make sense to me. 

But I guess your point of view is what they were thinking? "The hell with helping to spread awareness and slowing the spread of a bad disease. Some tiny percentage of immigrants may use this as an excuse to delay a hearing."

I admit that thought never occurred to me. But I should know by now not to underestimate this administration.

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3 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Blah blah. Virtue signal blah blah. 

Courtrooms the only places they get their info? 

Its also like you have never heard of lawyers. 

This is a horrible look for you. We’re talking about public education posters about a spreading virus.

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I don’t want to keep arguing this point, mostly because some very smart people around here offered some counterarguments which caused me to reconsider my position.

I wish there were more of this around here.

 

Also, Mortality Rate and Fatality Rate are different things. I think some people are talking past each other here.  Depending on the context, "death rate" could mean either, or something different.

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14 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Blah blah. Virtue signal blah blah. 

Courtrooms the only places they get their info? 

Its also like you have never heard of lawyers. 

Man, this is just sad.

Sad that people can have such hatred and disregard for people they've never even met.

All you need is Love.

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39 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Payroll tax cut.  Good idea? Bad idea?

Not great, but some fiscal stimulus is a good idea (and tax cuts will be inevitable in a GOP-designed stimulus package). Obviously, it only helps people who are still working. It's also pretty slow -- ideally we should be pushing out help as fast as possible, and a payroll tax cut only gives people a tiny boost every two weeks. Higher-income workers are going to benefit more than low-income workers as well.  That said, if we're going to do a tax cut, payroll is probably the way to go. 

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Governor has declared a state of emergency for Florida. I know what that means for a hurricane not sure what it means for this though.

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1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If enough people get it, 1% could still mean many thousands of deaths.  I'm not sure that the rate is even the most important number right now.

A 1% death rate could still mean over a million deaths in the US alone.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Godsbrother said:

I was listening to Sirius XM which has a station dedicated to the pandemic 24/7.  Yesterday they had two virologists that disagree pretty strongly with you.   They both said that when all is said and done the likely fatality numbers will be sub 1%.

Now don't hate on me, that is what they were saying and they seemed to know what they were talking about.

The reason they may end up being wrong is that they can't predict the future.

It is VERY CLEAR, both through statistical analysis of Italy and China, and from the WHO themselves, that the fatality numbers will rise when healthcare is poor.  Read the doctor's words that Saints posted above.

Now if every country locks down, goes into quarantine, stops the spread and this virus never really grips the world, then yes those virologists could be right.

But if this virus takes off and overwhelms the medical facilities in the world, there's absolutely no way that the death rate will be sub 1%.

 

 

Edited by shader
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

If enough people get it, 1% could still mean many thousands of deaths.  I'm not sure that the rate is even the most important number right now.

It's not the most important number right now, I agree.  But Trump said sub-1% and now that number is being thrown around despite evidence to the contrary....makes you wonder 

Edited by shader

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Here's a 2011 analysis from Moody's -- they found payroll tax cuts to be more effective than other kinds of tax cuts but less effective than most spending measures. 

Fiscal multiplier (dollar change in GDP per dollar spent)

Refundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate 1.22
Nonrefundable Lump-Sum Tax Rebate 1.01

Spending Increases
Temporary Increase in Food Stamps 1.71
Temporary Federal Financing of Work-Share Programs 1.64
Extending Unemployment Insurance Benefits 1.55
Increased Infrastructure Spending 1.44
General Aid to State Governments 1.34
Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP) 1.13

Permanent Tax Cuts
Extend Alternative Minimum Tax Patch 0.53
Make Dividend and Capital Gains Tax Cuts Permanent 0.39
Make Bush Income Tax Cuts Permanent 0.35
Cut in Corporate Tax Rate 0.32

Temporary Tax Cuts
Child Tax Credit, ARRA parameters 1.38
Payroll Tax Holiday for Employees 1.27
Earned Income Tax Credit, ARRA parameters 1.24
Job Tax Credit 1.20
Making Work Pay 1.19
Payroll Tax Holiday for Employers 1.05
Across-the-Board Tax Cut 0.98
Housing Tax Credit 0.82
Accelerated Depreciation 0.29
Loss Carryback 0.25

 

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1 hour ago, parasaurolophus said:

Blah blah. Virtue signal blah blah. 

Courtrooms the only places they get their info? 

Its also like you have never heard of lawyers. 

What’s the opposite of virtue signaling?

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