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Government Response To The Coronavirus (3 Viewers)

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When you say "proven to work" if you are only using one statistic to support that then it cannot be argued. I will counter that the lockdowns were proven to destroy millions of businesses, jobs, families and lives as well.    I refuse to go with the "if we save one life" reasoning for this.

If you are vulnerable, stay home.  If you are terrified, stay home.  Wear masks when you go out.  Social distance.  All the things we have been asked to do.  
This is the crux of the issue - people ARE NOT DOING THIS.  I'm fine with saying we need to stay open IF governors would make state wide mandates on masks in public and fine people that aren't.  For places where it's currently hotspots more drastic measures are appropriate but they won't even set rules and enforce them to get us to wear we don't have to consider it.

ETA - obviously some people aren't - I'm talking about everyone collectively.

 
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This is the crux of the issue - people ARE NOT DOING THIS.  I'm fine with saying we need to stay open IF governors would make state wide mandates on masks in public and fine people that aren't.  For places where it's currently hotspots more drastic measures are appropriate but they won't even set rules and enforce them to get us to wear we don't have to consider it.
Well closing the economy in my opinion isn't the right fix.  

 
timschochet said:
No it isn’t. Disneyworld in Florida apparently is but California isn’t that stupid. Downtown Disney (outside stores and shops) are open. 
Shanghai Disney is open and Paris Disney will open next week. But COVID-19 is not circulating in those regions, like it is in Florida.  I'm not sure if DiSantis could shut down Disney World even if he wanted to, short of some emergency order,  but he wants it to open. This could backfire if the opening causes local cases to rise even faster, and the Orlando area has to go back to phase 1. 

 
Check out how South Korea handled it. That's what we should have done. We could still do that too, though it wouldn't correct damage that's already occurred. It'd probably get us back to normal more quickly.

 
Check out how South Korea handled it. That's what we should have done. We could still do that too, though it wouldn't correct damage that's already occurred. It'd probably get us back to normal more quickly.
Think we never really had the chance to follow SK since our govt. messed up testing so much.  Why we can't be like Italy on the other hand is mind-blowing to me.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

 
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Shanghai Disney is open and Paris Disney will open next week. But COVID-19 is not circulating in those regions, like it is in Florida.  I'm not sure if DiSantis could shut down Disney World even if he wanted to, short of some emergency order,  but he wants it to open. This could backfire if the opening causes local cases to rise even faster, and the Orlando area has to go back to phase 1. 
DeSantos could, just like Newsome. You don’t have to directly shut them down you just make their path to reopening impossible.  Newsom is single-handedly doing that for Disneyland in Cali. 

 
Honestly, I'm so disgusted by our governmental response (local, state, and federal) as well as by certain segments of our population that I'm not sure I want to live in America any more, as painful as it is to consider.  Honestly starting to contemplate a transfer to Germany.  The opportunity presented itself a couple of years ago to change departments within my company and moving over there... that becomes more and more attractive every day.

 
If you are vulnerable, stay home.  If you are terrified, stay home.  Wear masks when you go out.  Social distance.  All the things we have been asked to do.  
Are you in favor of creating actual laws in those areas where people have been "asked" to do this yet aren't?  If you don't want to shut things down, then you are left to focus on how to make sure individuals are doing what is necessary to stop the spread.  Knowing that and knowing that MANY aren't doing what they are being asked, what's the next logical step in getting them to comply in your view?

 
Are you in favor of creating actual laws in those areas where people have been "asked" to do this yet aren't?  If you don't want to shut things down, then you are left to focus on how to make sure individuals are doing what is necessary to stop the spread.  Knowing that and knowing that MANY aren't doing what they are being asked, what's the next logical step in getting them to comply in your view?
I am absolutely fine with fines for people not wearing masks.  If that is what the people want, then I am on board 100% with that.

 
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Green Balloons said:
Yeah, I don't get what's so hilarious about 135,000 dead Americans and millions of people that got really ill.  He's a sick person, man.
@tonydead has said some incomprehensible things in this thread, and others. He spent the last few months encouraging people not to wear masks (he seems to have walked away from that, thankfully.) He has celebrated big crowds and mocked social distancing. His defense of Trump at times is to the point of absurdity; I think he has me on ignore because of our previous disagreements on that subject so he probably won’t read this unless someone responds. 

On the other hand he sometimes offers very insightful, thoughtful commentary, as he did yesterday in the thread about schools. He’s normally no troll, and a pretty smart dude. I can’t explain his shtick on this subject. I don’t get it. 

 
Are you in favor of creating actual laws in those areas where people have been "asked" to do this yet aren't?  If you don't want to shut things down, then you are left to focus on how to make sure individuals are doing what is necessary to stop the spread.  Knowing that and knowing that MANY aren't doing what they are being asked, what's the next logical step in getting them to comply in your view?
I am absolutely fine with fines for people not wearing masks.  If that is what the people want, then I am on board 100% with that.
Sadly, that seems to be the next step.  People simply aren't doing what is necessary to get us out of this.  I have ZERO confidence the next step will ever be taken, especially here in Florida, but in my view that's what's necessary if they aren't going to start shutting parts of the economy down again.

 
@tonydead has said some incomprehensible things in this thread, and others. He spent the last few months encouraging people not to wear masks (he seems to have walked away from that, thankfully.) He has celebrated big crowds and mocked social distancing. His defense of Trump at times is to the point of absurdity; I think he has me on ignore because of our previous disagreements on that subject so he probably won’t read this unless someone responds. 

On the other hand he sometimes offers very insightful, thoughtful commentary, as he did yesterday in the thread about schools. He’s normally no troll, and a pretty smart dude. I can’t explain his shtick on this subject. I don’t get it. 
I suspect there are many reasons why you're put on ignore Tim.  Your continued  "I am smarter than everyone else here" attitude might be it.

 
Sadly, that seems to be the next step.  People simply aren't doing what is necessary to get us out of this.  I have ZERO confidence the next step will ever be taken, especially here in Florida, but in my view that's what's necessary if they aren't going to start shutting parts of the economy down again.
It's not sad.  I know the seatbelt thing can be overdone but I do think it's a good comparison.  People were furious the government had the audacity to tell Americans what they can do in the privacy of their cars.  That's almost forgotten about now.  Heck they even do seat belt enforcement zones.  It's now the law.

If the people want masks to be mandatory, and our lawmakers act on what their constituents want, then it will be a law.  

 
It's not sad.  I know the seatbelt thing can be overdone but I do think it's a good comparison.  People were furious the government had the audacity to tell Americans what they can do in the privacy of their cars.  That's almost forgotten about now.  Heck they even do seat belt enforcement zones.  It's now the law.

If the people want masks to be mandatory, and our lawmakers act on what their constituents want, then it will be a law.  
Of course it is, at least in my view.  The sad part being we have to create laws for people to be considerate of others.  We can't be unselfish enough to be bothered to be kind towards others.  That's the sad part.  I view seatbelts in a completely different light for more reasons than I care to type out here, but the top two being 1.....wearing a mask is clearly temporary.  I am unaware of people wanting mask wearing to be ongoing beyond the pandemic.  2....not wearing seatbelts impacts you directly, not someone else.

 
Of course it is, at least in my view.  The sad part being we have to create laws for people to be considerate of others.  We can't be unselfish enough to be bothered to be kind towards others.  That's the sad part.  I view seatbelts in a completely different light for more reasons than I care to type out here, but the top two being 1.....wearing a mask is clearly temporary.  I am unaware of people wanting mask wearing to be ongoing beyond the pandemic.  2....not wearing seatbelts impacts you directly, not someone else.
Well you cant change where we are.  You can be sad about it or you can also accept it as a part and parcel for an extremely diverse nation with a strong belief in personal freedom.  That's part of the deal.  

 
Well you cant change where we are.  You can be sad about it or you can also accept it as a part and parcel for an extremely diverse nation with a strong belief in personal freedom.  That's part of the deal.  
I accept where we are and I think its sad.  It's not either/or :shrug:

And this is about "personal freedom" as much as not being allowed to walk around naked in public or having to have on a shirt and shoes to go into places.  That is to say, it has virtually nothing to do with "personal freedom".  It's all political bull####.  Reality is, whatever the message was at the beginning from our political "leaders" the tribe would have fallen in line...probably never thought twice about it, but that's not what happened and now we have what we have.  And the BEST argument against what I say here is "Well, 6 months ago the 'professionals' said I didn't have to wear a mask".  That's true, but the fact remains the person saying that is picking and choosing when to listen to the 'professionals' as they have been saying for the months since that people need to be wearing masks.  That 'logic' rings hollow at this point.

 
I accept where we are and I think its sad.  It's not either/or :shrug:

And this is about "personal freedom" as much as not being allowed to walk around naked in public or having to have on a shirt and shoes to go into places.  That is to say, it has virtually nothing to do with "personal freedom".  It's all political bull####.  Reality is, whatever the message was at the beginning from our political "leaders" the tribe would have fallen in line...probably never thought twice about it, but that's not what happened and now we have what we have.  And the BEST argument against what I say here is "Well, 6 months ago the 'professionals' said I didn't have to wear a mask".  That's true, but the fact remains the person saying that is picking and choosing when to listen to the 'professionals' as they have been saying for the months since that people need to be wearing masks.  That 'logic' rings hollow at this point.
Yeah well again you're wrong on that completely.  You can try to blame the President all you want, but that wouldn't have fixed this.

 
Well you cant change where we are.  You can be sad about it or you can also accept it as a part and parcel for an extremely diverse nation with a strong belief in personal freedom.  That's part of the deal.  
If we are going to maintain that society, and protect those freedoms, then we have to allow both it and them to be interfered with from time to time in the name of security, which includes public health. And that means federal, top down enforcement.  

 
If we are going to maintain that society, and protect those freedoms, then we have to allow both it and them to be interfered with from time to time in the name of security, which includes public health. And that means federal, top down enforcement.  
No no it doesn't.  You think so, but you're wrong.  However we have been through that enough times.

The federal governent isnt going to make a federal mask law, nor should they.  

 
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Which state was it that passed a mask law but excluded government buildings? 
You guys do understand that many times these things are done, not because they don't believe it exists or is real but rather than it isn't nearly as severe as it's being presented as...Right?

 
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Yeah well again you're wrong on that completely.  You can try to blame the President all you want, but that wouldn't have fixed this.
I didn't even bring up the President...you did, but continue pretending you have all the answers as if you're some sort of oracle that knows all the possible outcomes of every single scenario....good shtick :lol:  

Reality is...your preferred way of handling this thing is winning out...so we get to see how your way unfolds.  So far so good right?

 
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Posted in another thread.

So if we agree with the federal approach of letting the states determine their course of action, why is the federal approach now forcing schools to open?   Shouldn't the states determine this
Yeah that was discussed to the hilt in the other thread. 

 
Well you cant change where we are.  You can be sad about it or you can also accept it as a part and parcel for an extremely diverse nation with a strong belief in personal freedom.  That's part of the deal.  
No, this is the ideal of the ignorant and misinformed. It has been shown time, and time, and time, again that your personal freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose. Mask wearing is no different. Non-smoking areas are no different. Not yelling "fire" in a crowded space is no different. Not dumping waste into the water supply is no different. Food handling is no different. Not taking dangerous items on a plane is no different. Those that think that wearing a mask, for the safety of themselves and fellow citizens, is some sort of political power grab or that it is some sort of infringement on their personal freedom literally don't know what they are talking about and are completely blind to the hundreds of laws, statutes, institutions, and TBH cultural norms, that reinforce this idea in both in concept and practice. In fact, they are absolutely stupid to resist this because, if they really thought (which I am assuming they do) that this isn't legal, well... you don't want to have it taken to courts and proven to be legal because then it can be implemented and enforced much more easily. It is sad that people literally can't be bothered to wear a mask and equally, if not more sad, that they think it is some attack on their inalienable rights. They really should all be ashamed of their actions but their ignorance convinces them they are some sort of patriot instead.

 
No, this is the ideal of the ignorant and misinformed. It has been shown time, and time, and time, again that your personal freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose. Mask wearing is no different. Non-smoking areas are no different. Not yelling "fire" in a crowded space is no different. Not dumping waste into the water supply is no different. Food handling is no different. Not taking dangerous items on a plane is no different. Those that think that wearing a mask, for the safety of themselves and fellow citizens, is some sort of political power grab or that it is some sort of infringement on their personal freedom literally don't know what they are talking about and are completely blind to the hundreds of laws, statutes, institutions, and TBH cultural norms, that reinforce this idea in both in concept and practice. In fact, they are absolutely stupid to resist this because, if they really thought (which I am assuming they do) that this isn't legal, well... you don't want to have it taken to courts and proven to be legal because then it can be implemented and enforced much more easily. It is sad that people literally can't be bothered to wear a mask and equally, if not more sad, that they think it is some attack on their inalienable rights. They really should all be ashamed of their actions but their ignorance convinces them they are some sort of patriot instead.
Ugh.   I'm not sure who you are arguing with here.  People think what they think...You don't agree..Fine, good, wonderful.  Doesn't change the thoughts that they have.  

 
Ugh.   I'm not sure who you are arguing with here.  People think what they think...You don't agree..Fine, good, wonderful.  Doesn't change the thoughts that they have.  
That's true - people think what they think.  People also think the earth is flat, or vaccines make you autistic.  

 
That's true - people think what they think.  People also think the earth is flat, or vaccines make you autistic.  
EXACTLY.....I mean you may not agree with what they think, but in this country they have every right to think it.  Getting pissed because Americans have a belief in personal freedoms seems like a big fat waste of energy

 
so it seems.  It's really too bad that our citizens are so immature and self-centered that this is required.
Well crying about it wont buy you a loaf of bread.

I mean I HATE there has to be a law against someone stealing my car..Yet there it is.

 
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Well crying about it wont buy you a loaf of bread.

I mean I HATE there has to be a law against someone stealing my car..Yet there it is.
it seems that one particular party, the one with presidential veto power by coincidence, is very much opposed to masks.  Yet, they seem to still have much support.  Frankly, I don't know if that's more about the party or their supporters.

 
Well you cant change where we are.  You can be sad about it or you can also accept it as a part and parcel for an extremely diverse nation with a strong belief in personal freedom.  That's part of the deal.  
I hear ya.. it's all about US culture. What was the saying? "Ask not what you can do for your country, do whatever the heck you want to assert a destructive freedom"? Something like that.

 
James Buchanan is pretty close. 
Buchanan made bad choices but in truth he had no easy choices. Neither did Herbert Hoover, the other candidate. 
Trump had some easy choices early on: advise a national shut down, invoke the Defense Production Act. Then later on all he had to do was let the public health experts lead and get the heck out of the way. 

 
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