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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (1 Viewer)

 OTB's COACHING CRITERIA 

🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈

i will weigh Xs and Os as heavily as Ws/Ls ... i wanna see innovation, adaptation, matriculation - an indelible stamp that raises certain leaders of men (or boys, NCAA) above the fray. 

NOTE: HAVING THE BEST TEAM DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN YOU WERE THE BEST COACH. 

(see Barry Switzer in Dallas, e.g.)

how did a coach change a franchise, a program, a city, a fanbase?

how well did he extract the absolute last ounce of fight and talent outta his charges?

what kind of mark did he leave on his players?  what is his legacy among his own fraternity?

these are most important to me, and will carry as much clout as titles and wins and records set. 

all eras will be judged accordingly - the great thing about a pigskin coach is that there is no denying HIS stamp on the teams he piloted, whether it was leather helmets or tinted visors. 

the head coach is more vital here than in any of the other 3 majors - a great crew to sift through, i will be just/fair/opinionated/true to the integrity of the guidelines laid before you all. 

🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈🏈

 
All right everybody, the long awaited moment is finally here! I'm going to catch up on my picks! Again! On an unrelated note, I'm being very careful about what I post elsewhere, so hopefully I can finish on time with everyone else. Buckle up and settle in here we go!(they'll be in order, but I forgot the numbers, that can be fixed later)

Greatest NFL Moment- Megatron's 329 yard game vs Dallas

Greatest Super Bowl- SB XLI- Manning and Dungy break through

Greatest NCAAF Coach- Lou Holtz

Greatest NCAAB Men's player- Larry Johnson

Greatest NCAAB team- 91-92 Michigan(The Fab Five)

Greatest NHL Coach- Pat Burns

Greatest boxer(non-heavyweight)-Carlos de Leon

Greatest soccer player- David Beckham

Greatest track and field athlete- Richard Fosbury

Greatest men's ice skater- Johnny Weir

Greatest soccer team- 2006 Italy

Greatest women's tennis player-Anna Kournikova

Greatest soccer goalie-David Seaman

Greatest Jockey-Frankie Dettori

Greatest women's basketball player-Rebecca Lobo

Greatest women's golfer- Amy Alcott

Greatest women's track and field athlete- Jenn Suhr

All Around greatest athlete- Joe Thomas

 
It is not a category I am grading, but a huge miss in the NBA Moments category is the Cavs coming back from down 3-1 to beat the 73 win Warriors.  It was the most incredible/improbable thing I've seen in the NBA in my lifetime.  

 
Guys,

I regret to inform you all that I will not be able to judge the categories I was penciled in to judge. I just don't have the time nor the wherewithal right now to do so. I have no idea what to say other than that I regret it.

Best,

RA

 
Prospective Judges

These are up for grabs:

NHL 

35. Greatest offensive player  

36. Greatest defensive player (non goalie) 

37. Greatest goalie 

38. Greatest team 

39. Greatest coach
 

Pa’lante 

 
BobbyLayne said:
Prospective Judges

These are up for grabs:

NHL 

35. Greatest offensive player  

36. Greatest defensive player (non goalie) 

37. Greatest goalie 

38. Greatest team 

39. Greatest coach
 

Pa’lante 
Click to expand...
I know I said I would judge any leftover categories, and I will. But you really don’t want this. My knowledge of the NHL is limited to Wayne Gretzky, Slapshot, and that Warren Zevon song in which he yells “Hit Somebody!” 

 
timschochet said:
I know I said I would judge any leftover categories, and I will. But you really don’t want this. My knowledge of the NHL is limited to Wayne Gretzky, Slapshot, and that Warren Zevon song in which he yells “Hit Somebody!” 
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I’d volunteer but then we’d be here until the vaccine comes out

 
timschochet said:
I know I said I would judge any leftover categories, and I will. But you really don’t want this. My knowledge of the NHL is limited to Wayne Gretzky, Slapshot, and that Warren Zevon song in which he yells “Hit Somebody!” 
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I gave up 3 yesterday.  I have no problem doing the NHL.   I have a great knowledge of the history of hockey.

Rock I think also had NFL secondary.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
I gave up 3 yesterday.  I have no problem doing the NHL.   I have a great knowledge of the history of hockey.

Rock I think also had NFL secondary.
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i'll take secondary. gave Zow "baseball teams", so i got room. watched a lot of hockey til i left Boston, almost none since and that's 40 yrs, so you dont want my help on NHL

 
Long Ball Larry said:
Round 60 - greatest baseball moment 

THE FLIP

https://www.mlb.com/news/flip-play-in-oakland-iconic-moment-in-derek-jeters-career/c-79619840

With the Yankees down 2-0 in the playoff series, jeter comes out of nowhere with a creative play more at home in basketball or a jazz performance and just makes the perfect play at the perfect time to turn the momentum and spark the Yankees ws run
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Greatest Baseball Moment and Flip - the first thing that popped into my mind was Ozzie Smith doing a flip to start every regular season as he ran onto the field.

 
Possible Baseball moment missed?

Jim Bouton's "Ball Four."

It changed the way all sports books were written forever.  All sports books before them in all sports were basically glorifications of a particular athlete or athletes like the book Wikiid mentioned. Biographies and the like. Very fluffy.

This was the first sports book ever that went in to the daily lives of MLB baseball teams and players of the 1969 Seattle Pilots and Houston Astros after a late season trade.  Stories were told about their daily adventures, which also included stories of the Yankees when Bouton pitched for them in the early '60's.  Contract issues, players of the day taking greenies, stories about wives and beaver shooting, etc.   It changed the way all sports books have been written since then,

I was 11 when the book came out.  I read it every summer for like five years. Had my copy until ten years ago when we moved.   I saw last week it was the 50th anniversary of the book. So I bought it for my kindle and read it last week.  Was so awesome to read it again.  Realized a lot of my sense of humor, and even several "schtick" lines I've used since then to this day were from that book (and a revisit to Carlin's AM/FM I heard in 1971 also). The new version also had 10, 20, and 30 year later additions.

If you have never read it, I highly recommend it. It's like $9.99 on Kindle.

 
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OK - let's knock out the animal cat first...

MEN'S SPORTS - GREATEST HORSE

I don't know if that "Men's Sports" appellation is what caused no one to take a filly or mare, and it's very odd that only Frankel should represent flat racers from outside the USA, but here we go. Unlike human sport, we don't grow, train thoroughbreds better now than we ever did. There are still 50+ year-old speed records at almost every major racetrack.  Half the magic of them is the timelessness, that, while the equine heart is probably the greatest organ in nature next to the human brain, the structure which gives horses the greatest speed over a distance of ground is too fragile to test cardiovascular fitness without breaking down. As a registered breeder, i took a great study of genetic history and hope to have given that its proper weight here. History, comtemporaneity were given what place i could, but brilliance was weighted with accomplishment and ahead of public imagination, because it is so greatly a point of the sport. Thoroughbred contests would be much better if we did it the old way (start training them at their 3yo summers for a peak at 5 & 6) but it was felt that brilliance - the ability to show precocity as well as thoroughgoingness - was what would most advance the breed. The classics had substantial weight as a result. #s 13 thru 8 were extraordinarily close. Aaaaand, we're off - 

#16, 1 point - Mr Prospector: If it had been the most influential post-war stallion, Northern Dancer  (who was also a Derby winner, greatest Canadian-bred racehiorse of all time, etc) who'd been this gimmick play, several points would have been gained. Alas...

#15, 2 pts - Red Rum. I love the jumps, been to many meets in Ireland & Maryland. Fact is, though, the Russell Baze Principle is at play against other thoroughbreds. Steeplechase competitors are drawn from horses too thinly talented to handle the flats under 2 miles. And, like Mr Prospector, Red Rum isn't the consensus greatest 'in his limited category.

#14, 3 pts - Seabiscuit. Great story, famous horse, but not in a league with the others. No classic contention, no repeat victories, which one looks for in older racehorses. The match-race win over War Admiral is not enough to overcome lack of classic heft or thorough dominance.

#13, 4 pts - Cigar. Love me some geldings. Secretariat's late-blooming classmate, the giant Forego, may be the 2nd most-brilliant racehorse i've ever seen and i could bore you all day with stories of turf-specialist and one-time highest earner John Henry, the most-human horse (with a Jordanesque presence & ego) i ever seen, who i got to know up close because a friend owned a competitor. One reason besides structural soundness to argue for later racing is the amount of personality as a racing factor there is with older aniscules. Nonetheless, their marks upon the sport are lesser, plain & simple. I was personally astounded by Cigar's annus mirabilis, but every horse ranked above him here who werent major Triple Crown factors are a foreigner and another gelding with the most awesome achievement in the history of the sport. Plus, Cigar was utterly undistinguished in two racing seasons before he found himself.

#12, 5 pts - Whirlaway. Three factors in ranking this Triple Crown winner below others. 1) Won his Triple Crown during the war years, when the sport was reputed to be less-well contested 2) The modern thoroughbred is descended from three stallions. One of them is the direct-line sire of 99.9% of today's racehorses. One's influence is almost extinct, the last has no major-country representatives and is rarely seen in the first 6 gens of any modern horse. Whirlaway was the last great hope of that line and its loss is his shame. 3) My uncle Dominic was a jockey and said he wasnt a great horse.

#11, 6 pts - Native Dancer. One misstep in a 22-race classic career - a head loss for the Roses - and a truly foundational sire. Can't rate the Gray Ghost lower, but can't rate him higher.

Top Ten after i feed the peeps

 
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wikkidpissah said:
OK - let's knock out the animal cat first...

MEN'S SPORTS - GREATEST HORSE

I don't know if that "Men's Sports" appellation is what caused no one to take a filly or mare, and it's very odd that only Frankel should represent flat racers from outside the USA, but here we go. Unlike human sport, we don't grow, train thoroughbreds better now than we ever did. There are still 50+ year-old speed records at almost every major racetrack.  Half the magic of them is the timelessness, that, while the equine heart is probably the greatest organ in nature next to the human brain, the structure which gives horses the greatest speed over a distance of ground is too fragile to test cardiovascular fitness without breaking down. As a registered breeder, i took a great study of genetic history and hope to have given that its proper weight here. History, comtemporaneity were given what place i could, but brilliance was weighted with accomplishment and ahead of public imagination, because it is so greatly a point of the sport. Thoroughbred contests would be much better if we did it the old way (start training them at their 3yo summers for a peak at 5 & 6) but it was felt that brilliance - the ability to show precocity as well as thoroughgoingness - was what would most advance the breed. The classics had substantial weight as a result. #s 13 thru 8 were extraordinarily close. Aaaaand, we're off - 

#16, 1 point - Mr Prospector: If it had been the most influential post-war stallion, Northern Dancer  (who was also a Derby winner, greatest Canadian-bred racehiorse of all time, etc) who'd been this gimmick play, several points would have been gained. Alas...

#15, 2 pts - Red Rum. I love the jumps, been to many meets in Ireland & Maryland. Fact is, though, the Russell Baze Principle is at play against other thoroughbreds. Steeplechase competitors are drawn from horses too thinly talented to handle the flats under 2 miles. And, like Mr Prospector, Red Rum isn't the consensus greatest 'in his limited category.

#14, 3 pts - Seabiscuit. Great story, famous horse, but not in a league with the others. No repeat victories, which one looks for in older racehorses. The match-race win over War Admiral is not enough to overcome lack of classic heft or thorough dominance.

#13, 4 pts - Cigar. Love me some geldings. Secretariat's late-blooming classmate, the giant Forego, may be the 2nd most-brilliant racehorse i've ever seen and i could bore you all day with stories of turf-specialist and one-time highest earner John Henry, the most-human horse (with a Jordanesque presence & ego) i ever seen, who i got to know up close because a friend owned a competitor. One reason besides structural soundness to argue for later racing is the amount of personality as a racing factor there is with older aniscules. Nonetheless, their marks upon the sport are lesser, plain & simple. I was personally astounded by Cigar's annus mirabilis, but every horse ranked above him here who werent major Triple Crown factors are a foreigner and another gelding with the most awesome achievement in the history of the sport. Plus, Cigar was utterly undistinguished in two racing seasons before he found himself.

#12, 5 pts - Whirlaway. Three factors in ranking this Triple Crown winner below others. 1) Won his Triple Crown during the war years, when the sport was reputed to be less-well contested 2) The modern thoroughbred is descended from three stallions. One of them is the direct-line sire of 99.9% of today's racehorses. One's influence is almost extinct, the last has no major-country representatives and is rarely seen in the first 6 gens of any modern horse. Whirlaway was the last great hope of that line and its loss is his shame. 3) My uncle Dominic was a jockey and said he wasnt a great horse.

#11, 6 pts - Native Dancer. One misstep in a 22-race classic career - a head loss for the Roses - and a truly foundational sire. Can't rate the Gray Ghost lower, but can't rate him higher.

Top Ten after i feed the peeps
Click to expand...
Sweet.  I am in the top 10!

 
Gally said:
Sweet.  I am in the top 10!
Click to expand...
Me too! Which is fantasic given that I drafted my horse in the 56th round... 

Some interesting points: 

1. I nearly took Whirlaway in the mid-rounds. But I just had a feeling that Uncle Dominic wouldn't approve. 

2. This should hopefully make up for the point-loss I'll get with the Baze pick. 

3. When I researched this category (the horse categories were definitely my weakest going into this), the rankings on the net were allllll over the place. More so than the other categories. So, really felt like a crapshoot. 

4. I have a feeling this analysis is going to be super fun when each of these categories roll in...

 
Zow said:
Me too! Which is fantasic given that I drafted my horse in the 56th round... 

Some interesting points: 

1. I nearly took Whirlaway in the mid-rounds. But I just had a feeling that Uncle Dominic wouldn't approve. 

2. This should hopefully make up for the point-loss I'll get with the Baze pick. 

3. When I researched this category (the horse categories were definitely my weakest going into this), the rankings on the net were allllll over the place. More so than the other categories. So, really felt like a crapshoot. 

4. I have a feeling this analysis is going to be super fun when each of these categories roll in...
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I have never done any of these drafts.  With as much fun as the actual draft has been, I think the roll out of the categories is going to be great fun.

 
wikkidpissah said:
you will put it to the group if you disagree with my ranking or, better, step in if there's disagreement or i wont continue
Click to expand...
I think I somewhat agree with you. When I do my rankings I do intend to make a suggestion of where my pick would go. Perhaps, Tim, try to seek some group consensus?

 
wikkidpissah said:
you will put it to the group if you disagree with my ranking or, better, step in if there's disagreement or i wont continue
Click to expand...
I was going to bring this up with Tim in a PM.  I think we should submit our list to Tim in a PM, with our ranking in them.  And if he disagrees, hash it out in a PM.  I know you know horses better than anyone here. You and OTB.    I've always been pretty objective.  What do you think of this @timschochet

 
Jagov said:
Thanks for putting the energy into the eval and write up! I think you short changed Red Rum and steeplechase but I am biased  :)
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i was disappointed to downgrade Red Rum (even Arkle wouldnt have gained you more than a point) because is a great sport, but chasers chase because they cant sprint and flat racers dont sprint because they cant jump

 
wikkidpissah said:
you will put it to the group if you disagree with my ranking or, better, step in if there's disagreement or i wont continue
Click to expand...


Zow said:
I think I somewhat agree with you. When I do my rankings I do intend to make a suggestion of where my pick would go. Perhaps, Tim, try to seek some group consensus?
Click to expand...
I think Tim's  "ranking" of your pick should fall within the confines of your evaluation criteria otherwise it isn't consistent.  Tim should have some idea as to what each judge is using to rank so that he can try and be in the same mindset.  A discussion of the judge's criteria, thoughts, etc should factor into Tim's ranking, IMO.

 
#16, 1 point - Mr Prospector: If it had been the most influential post-war stallion, Northern Dancer  (who was also a Derby winner, greatest Canadian-bred racehiorse of all time, etc) who'd been this gimmick play, several points would have been gained. Alas...
Click to expand...

What if I told you that I read that Mr. Prospector was named that because he could mine DEEP in to any mare......if you know what I mean.*

*Pics not available upon request

 
JUDGING ANNOUNCEMENT - GREATEST FEMALE TRACK & FIELD ATHLETE (58)

This category is now complete and will start to gather my attention once the swimmy babe category is finalized.

This will probably be a challenge as we have a mixed bunch here. Sprinters … Jumpers … Vaulters … Long Distance runners … Multi Event gals. Need to find a way to properly compare apples to oranges. 

My own selection in this category (Grete Waitz) will be included in my evaluation & judging process. I will NOT include her in my final rankings that I provide. @timschochet will rank her where he sees fit. I will provide him my eval data if he desires to see/use it.

Matters that I will be using to perform the judging include, but may not be limited to ...

  • Olympic performance
  • World Championship performance
  • Performance in other tournaments (Pan Am Games, Euros, Goodwill Games, etc)
  • Length of Career
  • Broadness of Career
  • WRs Broken
  • Awards (Athlete of the Year, etc)
  • Social Impact
  • Fingernail Style & Length
Feel free to chime in with things that you feel need to be considered. I may or may not include them.

 
Jagov said:
JUDGING ANNOUNCEMENT - GREATEST FEMALE TRACK & FIELD ATHLETE (58)

This category is now complete and will start to gather my attention once the swimmy babe category is finalized.

This will probably be a challenge as we have a mixed bunch here. Sprinters … Jumpers … Vaulters … Long Distance runners … Multi Event gals. Need to find a way to properly compare apples to oranges. 

My own selection in this category (Grete Waitz) will be included in my evaluation & judging process. I will NOT include her in my final rankings that I provide. @timschochet will rank her where he sees fit. I will provide him my eval data if he desires to see/use it.

Matters that I will be using to perform the judging include, but may not be limited to ...

  • Olympic performance
  • World Championship performance
  • Performance in other tournaments (Pan Am Games, Euros, Goodwill Games, etc)
  • Length of Career
  • Broadness of Career
  • WRs Broken
  • Awards (Athlete of the Year, etc)
  • Social Impact
  • Fingernail Style & Length
Feel free to chime in with things that you feel need to be considered. I may or may not include them.
Click to expand...
Does that include length of time held or just quantity of records broken?

 
Gally said:
Does that include length of time held or just quantity of records broken?
Click to expand...
Certainly the quantity and I will do my best to incorporate the time held component. Data that I can find on the innerwebs could be a limiting factor. I do not plan on diving into paper archives for this exercise.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
Sarcastic will be the name of the first racing horse I buy.
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My grandfather owned a racehorse at Hollywood Park in partnership with the actor Norman Fell (Mr. Roper). They were related by marriage and both belonged to Brentwood Country Club. The horse was named “Norman Fell”. So when I was 12 my family was invited to the first race. I remember it was a posh affair, my grandfather rented out a box, there was a spread and I met Norman Fell (the actor not the horse). I also got to meet the trainer and the jockey. Exciting day until the race. Norman Fell came in last place. I think he raced 3 more times and came in last or second to last each time before my Grandpa sold him. Or got rid of him. 

 
timschochet said:
My grandfather owned a racehorse at Hollywood Park in partnership with the actor Norman Fell (Mr. Roper). They were related by marriage and both belonged to Brentwood Country Club. The horse was named “Norman Fell”. So when I was 12 my family was invited to the first race. I remember it was a posh affair, my grandfather rented out a box, there was a spread and I met Norman Fell (the actor not the horse). I also got to meet the trainer and the jockey. Exciting day until the race. Norman Fell came in last place. I think he raced 3 more times and came in last or second to last each time before my Grandpa sold him. Or got rid of him. 
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better than waking up with it's head in his lap  :D

 
timschochet said:
My grandfather owned a racehorse at Hollywood Park in partnership with the actor Norman Fell (Mr. Roper). They were related by marriage and both belonged to Brentwood Country Club. The horse was named “Norman Fell”. So when I was 12 my family was invited to the first race. I remember it was a posh affair, my grandfather rented out a box, there was a spread and I met Norman Fell (the actor not the horse). I also got to meet the trainer and the jockey. Exciting day until the race. Norman Fell came in last place. I think he raced 3 more times and came in last or second to last each time before my Grandpa sold him. Or got rid of him. 
Click to expand...
That's pretty cool.

My only cool horse racing story....  I played them a lot at SA, HP and Del Mar when I was in college.  I got really good at reading The Daily racing Form and hitting exactas where a favorite would win and a 15 or 20-1 horse would finish second.  Hit like 25 of them one year.

Anyways, I got married in Feb 1984.  Wife spent the last two weeks up In Mill Vally (NoCal) where we were to be married. All my frat friends and co- workers at LB Houlihans  decided we should have a pre-bachelor party at SA on a Friday.  I spent all Thursday night after my bartending shift pounding beers and LI Ice teas and went over every race and made all my selections for the next day.   We partied something fierce on the infield at SA on Friday. I literally had to stagger to the betting booths to make my wagers and was so glad I did all my prep the night before.

I hit just about every race.  Winners, like 3-4 exactas.  On the Pick 6, I hit the first five races.  A couple of 8/10-1 in there, the rest faves.  For Pick 6 race #6, I had the clear favorite, NO FLAK.   We figured i might win around $2500-3000.  That was a lot of money back then in 1984.   Our gang was going absolutely nuts hoping I could pull this off.  NO FLAK was BY FAR the strongest closing horse on the card that day. I felt pretty confident.   He started out well, raced true to form, was in first,  all the way to the 3/4 mark at the final turn, and DIED AND FINISHED LAST.  I think I won $88 for the Consolation pool.  :bag: :deadhorse:

 
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