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timschochet

2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft- Judges are amazing except for evaluating my picks!

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38 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

Current Judge Rankings

1. Jagov

2-6.  PENDING

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DEAD TO ME. Jayrod

 

 

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My only significant disagreement with a judge- and it’s not a criticism as much as it is a disagreement- is with @Jayrod. When he evaluated Moses Malone, he dinged him for only 1 championship. When he ranked Bill Russell, he credited him for 11 championships. 

I just don’t believe that championships should have a lot of significance in terms of evaluating individual players on team sports. You can’t help your teammates. How would Moses Malone have performed on a Celtics team filled with stars against lesser competition? How would Bill Russell have done on a mediocre Rockets team for most of his career? It’s simply not fair to look at rings, IMO. 

That being said, I have no problem with Jayrod’s overall ranking of either guy. I probably would have them close to or at the same positions. But I disagree with using championships as an important barometer. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, timschochet said:

My only significant disagreement with a judge- and it’s not a criticism as much as it is a disagreement- is with @Jayrod. When he evaluated Moses Malone, he dinged him for only 1 championship. When he ranked Bill Russell, he credited him for 11 championships. 

I just don’t believe that championships should have a lot of significance in terms of evaluating individual players on team sports. You can’t help your teammates. How would Moses Malone have performed on a Celtics team filled with stars against lesser competition? How would Bill Russell have done on a mediocre Rockets team for most of his career? It’s simply not fair to look at rings, IMO. 

That being said, I have no problem with Jayrod’s overall ranking of either guy. I probably would have them close to or at the same positions. But I disagree with using championships as an important barometer. 

Sometimes rings matter.

Give Ewing two rings in his two trips to the finals (even if he was hurt in the 99 finals), and he's higher on the list. 

Heck, give him just one - if Starks hits that 3 in 94's game six, he's higher. 

Edited by jwb

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11 hours ago, Jayrod said:

Here are your super official NBA-CENTERS Category Rankings

 

#5 (12 pts) - Shaquille O'Neal - The Diesel was a force to be reckoned with throughout his long and successful career.  He is still the most physically dominant player the world has ever seen at 7-1 and pushing 300 lbs throughout his career.  4 rings, an MVP and 14 all-NBA teams make him one of the most decorated as well.  On top of all that, I think he is hilarious and love his work on TNT's broadcasts. 

#4 (13 pts) - Tim Duncan - let the controversy begin.  First of all, is he even a center?  It is debatable, but my Magic 8 ball said "Sings point to yes" so we will run with it.  However, I do believe he had a slight advantage being considered a forward for a time because that allowed for more spots on All-NBA teams, All-star games and All-Defensive teams.  I wasn't going to put anyone above the next tier guys anyway and even if I discount 25% of his accolades, he still finishes over Shaq.  That aside, let me point out some things about one of my all time favorite NBA players.  He has 5 rings and 15 each of all-NBA teams, all-star teams and all-defensive teams.  His longevity of success is second to none in the history of the league and he was dominant for parts of 3 decades.  And for the record (although I'm not judging the category) I have him as the #3 forward.

 

Because of the bolded and that he went head to head with Shaq I would have flip flopped these two for this ranking.  You can't go wrong with either and at this slight debate it comes to personal preference.  I may just be bitter because Shaq is my first negative value pick (I picked him as #4 center)…...hahhaaha.    But I do believe Shaq is the #4 Center and Duncan should be a forward.  What I am really kicking myself is that I didn't take Duncan as a forward to make sure they were ranked accordingly...hahhaha

 

Great job all around though.  Nice write ups and every ranking has a thought behind it. 

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23 minutes ago, jwb said:

Sometimes rings matter.

Give Ewing two rings in his two trips to the finals (even if he was hurt in the 99 finals), and he's higher on the list. 

Heck, give him just one - if Starks hits that 3 in 94's game six, he's higher. 

I don’t think they should matter. 

Terry Bradshaw got one point; Dan Marino got what, 11? I’ve got no problem with that, do you? 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don’t think they should matter. 

Terry Bradshaw got one point; Dan Marino got what, 11? I’ve got no problem with that, do you? 

oh goodness no - I'm just saying sometimes it elevates people (and sometimes it doesn't). I don't think hard and fast rules apply, either way. That's all. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

My only significant disagreement with a judge- and it’s not a criticism as much as it is a disagreement- is with @Jayrod. When he evaluated Moses Malone, he dinged him for only 1 championship. When he ranked Bill Russell, he credited him for 11 championships. 

I just don’t believe that championships should have a lot of significance in terms of evaluating individual players on team sports. You can’t help your teammates. How would Moses Malone have performed on a Celtics team filled with stars against lesser competition? How would Bill Russell have done on a mediocre Rockets team for most of his career? It’s simply not fair to look at rings, IMO. 

That being said, I have no problem with Jayrod’s overall ranking of either guy. I probably would have them close to or at the same positions. But I disagree with using championships as an important barometer. 

i don't want to take away from the rankings right now,  but at some point I will add some more deep dive thoughts on the nba stuff and i definitely think that Russell should get the lion's share of the credit for those championships.  

I agree that it is often far too simplistic of an analysis, but Russell was such the driving force on those teams that he gets the credit.  When you look at the on/off numbers, the success with different team compositions, and the fact that most of those "hall-of-famers" got into the hall well after their careers ended (e.g. they probably got more credit for the rings than they should have), Russell is the ####

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, timschochet said:
54 minutes ago, jwb said:

Sometimes rings matter.

I don’t think they should matter. 

Terry Bradshaw got one point; Dan Marino got what, 11? I’ve got no problem with that, do you?

The poster boy for this in the NFL was Sonny Jurgensen, basically the Dan Marino of the 1960s and close to a forgotten figure in NFL lore.

Jurgensen was rostered on only one NFL title team: as the back-up quarterback to Norm Van Brocklin on the 1960 Eagles. Until his final year in the league at age 40 (1974), he never played in a post-season game. He missed the entire 1972 Redskins playoff run to the Super Bowl due to injury. When Jurgensen did finally get into a playoff game vs. the Rams in 1974, it was merely in a relief role to Billy Kilmer.

Anyway. When I was a kid reading sports books from the 1970s & early 80s, Jurgensen was considered a hands-down top-several NFL QB of all time. Jurgensen retired with a lifetime passer rating of 82.6, the highest career number ever before the 1978 defensive rules that opened up the passing game. He also logged over 32,000 yards passing and 255 TDs in an era when 2,500-yard seasons and 20-passing-TD seasons were huge. The lack of post-season accomplishments didn't matter -- Jurgensen was consistently named right alongside Johnny Unitas (then a consensus #1), Van Brocklin, Otto Graham, Bart Starr, Fran Tarkenton, Sammy Baugh, Len Dawson, and Sid Luckman.

Fast forward forty years. Jurgensen doesn't even get drafted into our list of all-time top 16 NFL QBs -- and I'm not sure anyone even considered him. Ten of the QBs we've drafted started their careers well after Jurgensen retired. And Bradshaw and Staubach were still young players with their titles in front of them when Jurgensen hung it up. Maybe out of the top 20 is Jurgensen's rightful place these days, I'm not sure. It's just kind of jarring (just a little) to think about how much a top-10 list can turn over in one's lifetime.

Then again ... it has been 40-something years. Maybe we were likewise giving short shrift to pioneer QBs of the 1920s & 30s like Jim Conzleman, Paddy Driscoll, Dutch Clark and Arnie Herber by not keeping them on the Great QB lists of the 70s.

Edited by Doug B

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As far as including rings in my analysis, they were given a 0.5 multiplier, while MVPs were given a 3x and advanced stats a 2x.  In other words, rings helped, but not a whole lot.

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Round - Pick - Order Drafted - Ranking - Points - Value

  • 1 - Michael Jordan - 1, 1, 16, 0
  • 11 - Peyton Manning - 3, 3, 14, 0
  • 17 - Forrest Gregg - 3, 3, 14, 0
  • 30 - Al MacInnis - 10, 6, 11, 4
  • 40 - Krisztina Egerszegi - 10, 5, 12, 5
  • 41 - Willis Reed - 12, 9, 8, 3
  • 42- 1932 Yankees - 13, 7, 10, 6
  • 49 - Benny Leonard - 14, 13, 4, 1
  • 57 - Mr Prospector - 16, 16, 1, 0

Through 9 picks - No negative value picks, 4 picks on the nose and 4 picking up multiple values points with picks moving up 3, 4, 5 and 6 pts respectively.  I think my luck will run out soon though.

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43 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don’t think they should matter. 

Terry Bradshaw got one point; Dan Marino got what, 11? I’ve got no problem with that, do you? 

To me rings are definitely a good tiebreaker but should not push someone up or down much.

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2 hours ago, Long Ball Larry said:

 

:lmao:

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8 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Round - Pick - Order Drafted - Ranking - Points - Value

  • 1 - Michael Jordan - 1, 1, 16, 0
  • 11 - Peyton Manning - 3, 3, 14, 0
  • 17 - Forrest Gregg - 3, 3, 14, 0
  • 30 - Al MacInnis - 10, 6, 11, 4
  • 40 - Krisztina Egerszegi - 10, 5, 12, 5
  • 41 - Willis Reed - 12, 9, 8, 3
  • 42- 1932 Yankees - 13, 7, 10, 6
  • 49 - Benny Leonard - 14, 13, 4, 1
  • 57 - Mr Prospector - 16, 16, 1, 0

Through 9 picks - No negative value picks, 4 picks on the nose and 4 picking up multiple values points with picks moving up 3, 4, 5 and 6 pts respectively.  I think my luck will run out soon though.

You forgot your tennis player.  10 picks have been awarded (and soccer player that is part way through).

 

Here is where I am at:

  • 7th Round - Shaq O'Neal - 4, 5, 12, -1
  • 15th Round - Tracy Caulkins - 3, 8, 9, -5
  • 23 - Manny Pacquiao - 6, 3, 14, +3
  • 38 - Citation, 8, 6, 11, +2
  • 41 - Sammy Baugh, 13, 11, 6, +2
  • 47 - Scott Niedermayer, 15, 8, 9, +7
  • 52 - Roy Emerson, 15, 15, 2, 0
  • 53 - Art Shell 15, 12, 5, +3
  • 54 - 1907 Cubs, 15, 6, 11, +9
  • 59 - James Harden, 16, 10, 7, +6

 

I am loving my late picks but losing value on my early picks.  Two negatives and that his Shaq and Caulkins (who didn't fair as well as I thought she should, got dinged pretty hard I think for boycott of 1980 Olympics).  Happy overall though.

 

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4 minutes ago, Gally said:

You forgot your tennis player.  10 picks have been awarded (and soccer player that is part way through).

 

Here is where I am at:

  • 7th Round - Shaq O'Neal - 4, 5, 12, -1
  • 15th Round - Tracy Caulkins - 3, 8, 9, -5
  • 23 - Manny Pacquiao - 6, 3, 14, +3
  • 38 - Citation, 8, 6, 11, +2
  • 41 - Sammy Baugh, 13, 11, 6, +2
  • 47 - Scott Niedermayer, 15, 8, 9, +7
  • 52 - Roy Emerson, 15, 15, 2, 0
  • 53 - Art Shell 15, 12, 5, +3
  • 54 - 1907 Cubs, 15, 6, 11, +9
  • 59 - James Harden, 16, 10, 7, +6

 

I am loving my late picks but losing value on my early picks.  Two negatives and that his Shaq and Caulkins (who didn't fair as well as I thought she should, got dinged pretty hard I think for boycott of 1980 Olympics).  Happy overall though.

 

Pretty sure tennis picks haven't been completed, and as you mentioned soccer.

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And Gally, you are definitely doing really well based on where you've picked.  Those are some huge value points.

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59 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I don’t think they should matter. 

Terry Bradshaw got one point; Dan Marino got what, 11? I’ve got no problem with that, do you? 

It's weird to be judging soccer and hearing comments like this.  Perhaps because the competition has so historically been scattered, there's really no better way to judge it.  I've seen Maradona.  I know he was a great player.  But he might not even be on this list, much less in competition for the top spot if he had been properly red carded against England.  

And World Cups are way flukier than most "championships."  

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5 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Pretty sure tennis picks haven't been completed, and as you mentioned soccer.

Well, my mens tennis player is done....hahhaha. I got screwed with my Emerson pick.  Should have been top 5 easy (j/k @BobbyLayne hahaha)

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I don’t think they should matter. 

Terry Bradshaw got one point; Dan Marino got what, 11? I’ve got no problem with that, do you? 

How does that perspective influence Brady and Montana? Their entire ranking is based on those rings. 

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Posted (edited)

Rings for the NBA are more important than any team sport IMO because one player can have such a bigger impact in basketball than pretty much any other team sport. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

How does that perspective influence Brady and Montana? Their entire ranking is based on those rings. 

I tend to agree with this - even before I picked Manning in this draft I've always maintained I think he's the best QB I've ever seen play.  To many that seems silly but it's just how I feel.  I think if you swap Brady and Manning over the years then their ring count would also get flipped.  And that's not to take away from Brady at all.  I have zero problem with him being ranked first.  I think a more interesting argument is with someone who never won like Marino.  I think his ranking goes up a decent amount in most peoples mind if you put 2 rings in his resume.

ETA - I should point out I don't agree with "entire ranking" - but a good part of it

Edited by AAABatteries
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40 minutes ago, Gally said:

You forgot your tennis player.  10 picks have been awarded (and soccer player that is part way through).

 

Here is where I am at:

  • 7th Round - Shaq O'Neal - 4, 5, 12, -1
  • 15th Round - Tracy Caulkins - 3, 8, 9, -5
  • 23 - Manny Pacquiao - 6, 3, 14, +3
  • 38 - Citation, 8, 6, 11, +2
  • 41 - Sammy Baugh, 13, 11, 6, +2
  • 47 - Scott Niedermayer, 15, 8, 9, +7
  • 52 - Roy Emerson, 15, 15, 2, 0
  • 53 - Art Shell 15, 12, 5, +3
  • 54 - 1907 Cubs, 15, 6, 11, +9
  • 59 - James Harden, 16, 10, 7, +6

 

I am loving my late picks but losing value on my early picks.  Two negatives and that his Shaq and Caulkins (who didn't fair as well as I thought she should, got dinged pretty hard I think for boycott of 1980 Olympics).  Happy overall though.

 

Shaq just got Duncan'd.  However, Harden was a huge get at that stage.

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3 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Shaq just got Duncan'd.  However, Harden was a huge get at that stage.

yep.  I thought about taking Duncan right after I took Shaq to block him from being used as a Center.  Bad drafting by me....hahaha

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5 hours ago, Zow said:

Meh, I'm tied with you and not terribly worried. Gotta remember we will have some top guys. We've only hit one category so far where I expected to have a top 3. 

Both you and Larry have excellent points. I didn't do myself any favors getting sent to the penalty box a few times, and it's far from over.

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1 hour ago, AAABatteries said:

I tend to agree with this - even before I picked Manning in this draft I've always maintained I think he's the best QB I've ever seen play.  To many that seems silly but it's just how I feel.  I think if you swap Brady and Manning over the years then their ring count would also get flipped.  And that's not to take away from Brady at all.  I have zero problem with him being ranked first.  I think a more interesting argument is with someone who never won like Marino.  I think his ranking goes up a decent amount in most peoples mind if you put 2 rings in his resume.

ETA - I should point out I don't agree with "entire ranking" - but a good part of it

I think the judge made nearly these same comments. ;)

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Current Points relative to Draft Spot

1.11	Secratariat	16	16	0
14.06	Doug Harvey	13	5	-8
27.11	Otto Graham	7	12	5
31.11	1986  Mets	8	7	-1
36.06	Katinka Hosszu	9	15	6
38.06	Jason Kidd	3	6	3
44.06	Ron Yary	4	4	0
50.06	Carlos Monzon	2	7	5
52.06	Artis Gilmore	2	1	-1

total of +9

Harvey hurts and I think is a bit underrated here if you read hockey historians, but Hosszu and Monzon were great grabs considering that I never even heard of the former and barely knew about the latter.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

How does that perspective influence Brady and Montana? Their entire ranking is based on those rings. 

Set the single season touchdown record (record has since been broken)

Currently second to brees for regular season career yards and touchdowns

Currently first in regular plus postseason career yards and touchdowns 

3 time league MVP

Most regular season wins by a starting QB (219 and counting)

NFL record 17 division titles 

NFL record 30 playoff wins. Montana was second with 16.

Set the consecutive wins records -single season, and across seasons - in different years 

Led the highest scoring offense in NFL history in 2007 (record has since been broken)

Has been to 13 AFC championship games in 18 seasons, winning 9

Has never had a losing season

Has never had a .500 season 

Has only missed the playoffs once - and led the NFL in passing touchdowns that year

Helped Moss set the single season receiving touchdown record - their first year playing together

Helped Gronk set the single season receiving touchdown record for tight ends

Has thrown a touchdown to an NFL record 77 different receivers

None of that includes his nfl records that include 6 superbowl wins, 9 appearances, 41 playoff games, most yards in a superbowl, biggest superbowl comeback, most superbowl comebacks, most playoff comebacks, most superbowl MVP's but those are cool records too. 

Edited by bostonfred
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6 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Set the single season touchdown record (record has since been broken)

Currently second to brees for regular season career yards and touchdowns

Currently first in regular plus postseason career yards and touchdowns 

3 time league MVP

Most regular season wins by a starting QB (219 and counting)

NFL record 17 division titles 

NFL record 30 playoff wins. Montana was second with 16.

Set the consecutive wins records -single season, and across seasons - in different years 

Led the highest scoring offense in NFL history in 2007 (record has since been broken)

Has been to 13 AFC championship games in 18 seasons, winning 9

Has never had a losing season

Has never had a .500 season 

Has only missed the playoffs once - and led the NFL in passing touchdowns that year

Helped Moss set the single season receiving touchdown record - their first year playing together

Helped Gronk set the single season receiving touchdown record for tight ends

Has thrown a touchdown to an NFL record 77 different receivers

None of that includes his nfl records that include 6 superbowl wins, 9 appearances, 41 playoff games, most yards in a superbowl, biggest superbowl comeback, most superbowl comebacks, most playoff comebacks, most superbowl MVP's but those are cool records too. 

I am not arguing how good he is. Just if he didn’t have all the rings, would he be seen as the clear GOAT or more like Brees and Marino? 

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Greetings draft nerds.  The poster formerly known as scoobygang has texted me to let me know he has been banned for saying naughty things about our beloved President.  You will have to find a new soccer judge.  I still think he should rate higher than Woz on the list of best judges though.

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4 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Greetings draft nerds.  The poster formerly known as scoobygang has texted me to let me know he has been banned for saying naughty things about our beloved President.  You will have to find a new soccer judge.  I still think he should rate higher than Woz on the list of best judges though.

Well if this isn’t the microcosm of this draft, I don’t know what is! 

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12 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I am not arguing how good he is. Just if he didn’t have all the rings, would he be seen as the clear GOAT or more like Brees and Marino? 

If you take away rings do you still consider his 30 playoff wins that are more than 2nd and 3rd place combined?  Because if we ignore rings, that's the most success you can have. 

If you take away playoff performance altogether would you consider that he's the all time winningest quarterback with 219 regular season wins?  Because if we ignore postseason, that's the most success you can have. 

If you take all winning out of the equation and take away postseason success, superbowl appearances, superbowl comebacks, superbowl rings, superbowl mvps and every single thing a quarterback is expected to do except accumulate statistics, sure, brees manning and Marino would be considered on a similar level and he would still be in the conversation as GOAT with 3 league MVPs and spots at the top of all of the career and single season leaderboards. 

The rings are the consequence of his greatness, not the reason for it.

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2 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

If you take away rings do you still consider his 30 playoff wins that are more than 2nd and 3rd place combined?  Because if we ignore rings, that's the most success you can have. 

If you take away playoff performance altogether would you consider that he's the all time winningest quarterback with 219 regular season wins?  Because if we ignore postseason, that's the most success you can have. 

If you take all winning out of the equation and take away postseason success, superbowl appearances, superbowl comebacks, superbowl rings, superbowl mvps and every single thing a quarterback is expected to do except accumulate statistics, sure, brees manning and Marino would be considered on a similar level and he would still be in the conversation as GOAT with 3 league MVPs and spots at the top of all of the career and single season leaderboards. 

The rings are the consequence of his greatness, not the reason for it.

I know what you are saying. No arguments of his success and skill. 

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11 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Greetings draft nerds.  The poster formerly known as scoobygang has texted me to let me know he has been banned for saying naughty things about our beloved President.  You will have to find a new soccer judge.  I still think he should rate higher than Woz on the list of best judges though.

Tell him to make a new account and use the alias like everyone else 

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2 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

How does that perspective influence Brady and Montana? Their entire ranking is based on those rings. 

This seemed like an argument of his success or skill but it sounds like you've changed your mind. Admirable. 

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Just now, bostonfred said:

This seemed like an argument of his success or skill but it sounds like you've changed your mind. Admirable. 

You made great points and it’s not worth a long argument. Maybe Montana is the better example of the influence of rings. Either way, I’m not at all disputing the rankings and I’m happy my guy Brees got what I consider the proper love.  

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29 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Greetings draft nerds.  The poster formerly known as scoobygang has texted me to let me know he has been banned for saying naughty things about our beloved President.  You will have to find a new soccer judge.  I still think he should rate higher than Woz on the list of best judges though.

#### that noise.

Send him the list and have him send you the writeups.

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22 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Tell him to make a new account and use the alias like everyone else 

 

4 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

#### that noise.

Send him the list and have him send you the writeups.

Yeah sorry I’m just a messenger I’m not spending any more time on this than I already have.  He’s smart enough to have considered these options but he said he was out.  Maybe he just doesn’t like you people.

Anyway, just go into the giant soccer thread and ask one of those guys to do it.  :shrug:

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36 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Greetings draft nerds.  The poster formerly known as scoobygang has texted me to let me know he has been banned for saying naughty things about our beloved President.  You will have to find a new soccer judge.  I still think he should rate higher than Woz on the list of best judges though.

I have a feeling this may hurt my pick's ranking.

I would be happy to do the not-so-heavy lifting of posting scooby's writeups if he is willing to still do them and send to me via email.  @fatguyinalittlecoat - let me know.

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28 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

 

Yeah sorry I’m just a messenger I’m not spending any more time on this than I already have.  He’s smart enough to have considered these options but he said he was out.  Maybe he just doesn’t like you people.

Anyway, just go into the giant soccer thread and ask one of those guys to do it.  :shrug:

I was just kidding around 

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Posted (edited)

Greatest Men’s Tennis players

Tier 3

10. (7 points) Andre Agassi 8 GS, 3 Davis Cups, Olympic Gold medal

870–274 (76.0%), 60 ATP Titles (10th in Open era tennis.)  2nd player after Laver to win an Open era career GS, 1 of 5. 1st to win 4 Australians, since surpassed by Novak and Roger. 1st to win Golden Slam (matched by Nadal.) Only man to win the Super Slam (ATP Tour WC.) 1st male to win a GS on 3 surfaces (hard, clay, grass.) 17 ATP Masters Series 1000 events, 4th behind the Big Three. Last American to win at Roland Garros (1999) and Sydney (2003.) World #1 in 1995 and 1999. Sixth all-time in ATP earnings, behind only the Big Four and Sampras.

Notable Rivalries:

Sampras (14-20); the best server of all time versus the best returner of all time. Ranked #12, Pete beat Andre (#4) in straight sets at the 1990 US Open. Agassi beat Sampras in straight sets at the 1992 French. Great 5-set match at the 1993 quarters at Wimbledon. Agassi won 3 of 5 finals in 1995 when they won 3/4 of the GS. After his 3 year slump, Agassi regained #1 in 1999, losing to Sampras at Wimbledon but prevailing at the French and US Opens. Andre won a memorable 5-setter at the 2000 Australian semis. At the 2001 US Open quarters, Pete won in four sets, a great match with no service breaks in 52 games: 6-7 (7), 7-6 (2), 7-6 (2), 7-6 (5). Their last meeting was at the 2002 US Open finals, with Sampras winning his 14th and last GS. One of the best rivalries of the Open era.

Michael Chang (15-7) was a defensive minded baseliner, and their entertaining matches often featured long rallies. Best match was the 5-setter at the 1994 US Open, with Andre coming out on top in a high quality match. Chang won in straight sets at the 1996 Australian and US Opens. Shockingly, Agassi admitted in his biography he lost the former on purpose because he didn’t want to face Becker in the Finals.

Becker (10-4) win their first three meetings, Agassi 10 of the last 11. In memorable 1995 semi-finals, Boris won in 4 sets at Wimbledon and Andre prevailed in 4 sets at Flushing Meadow.

Patrick Rafter (10-5) Andre led 8-2 on his best surface, hard courts, Patrick won their only match on clay, and they split 4 matches at Wimbledon. The highlight was a pair of 5 set matches in 2000 and 2001.

Federer (3-8) Roger, 11 years younger, lost the first three times he played Andre, then never again. Roger won a (2-day) 5-set quarterfinal at the 2004 US Open, and the 4 set 2005 US Open finals, Agassi’s last GS final.

Agassi lost his first 6 to Lendl, including 2 US Open semis, the won their last 2. Won his last 5 matches with Edberg (6-3.)

I didn’t care for young, wig-wearing, manufactured-rebel-image Andre. I didn’t know he was a meth head until his biography came out. But reinvigorated, bald Andre with the legendary training regimen and clean lifestyle was fantastic.

He skipped the Australian his first 8 years, but it became his best event, including a 3-year run (2001-2003) in his 30s, a record 26-match win streak, 48-5 overall. He declined 3 Wimbledon invitations at age 18-20 - BECAUSE HE DIDN’T WANT TO WEAR ALL WHITE - but broke through with his first GS in 1992 after 3 GS finals losses. He was the first unseeded player to win the US Open (1994.) Completed the career GS at the 1999 French, cemented his legacy with a second US Open and re-ascension to #1 that fall. Uber talented teenager who at times lacked focus, he not only revamped his bratty image but made an authentic transformation into to a true role model and humanitarian. From 1999-2005, one of the finest grinders ever seen, winning through fitness, grit, crafty point construction and sheer force of will.

Tied for 6th all-time in GS wins, 5th in GS matches won. Outside the top ten in GS winning %. Legendary 20 year run, but lacks the consistency that would have pushed him higher. Great athlete and one of my favorite players.

9. (8 points) Jimmy Connors 8 GS

Record 109 singles titles, #1 160 consecutive weeks (1974-77) and 268 weeks overall. The former was the record for 30+ years until Federer came along. YE top ten 16 straight years (1973-88.) SF or better at 14 of his 22 US Open appearances; never lost before the semi-finals 1974-85, winning on five occasions (1974 on grass, 1976 on clay and in 1978, 1982-83 on hard courts.) First man since Bill Tilden in the 20s with 5 straight US Open finals, first player with 3 US Open wins since Fred Perry in the 30s. One of six players to win 3 GS events in a season (Laver 1969, Mats Wilander 1988, Federer 2004, 2006-07, Nadal 2010 and Djokovic in 2011 & 2015.) Still holds the records for most grass-court match wins at Wimbledon (107) and US Open match wins (98.) Won his first tournament in 1972, his last in 1989, record 1274 matches overall (Fed is closing in with 1242.) Went 99-4 (96.1%) in 1974, with 15 tournament wins and 3 GS (he was barred from the French Open over ATP litigation.)

Won 8 of his first 12 VS Borg (8-15 overall) and 12/20 starting out against McEnroe (14-20.) Connors won a 4th of July Wimbledon final over Johnny Mac over 5 sets in 1982, one of 3 wins in 9 GS matches against him.

Connors also had significant rivalries against Nastase, early in his career, and later with Ivan Lendl. “I had true rivalries,” said Connors. “Not only did I want to beat my opponent, but I didn't want to let him up, either. I had a rivalry with Mac, Lendl, Borg. Everybody knew there was tension between us, on court and off. That's what's really ingrained in my mind: 'This is real. This isn't a soft rivalry.' There were no hugs and kisses.”

Troubled by a deteriorated left wrist in 1990, he dropped to No. 936 in the FedEx ATP Rankings before undergoing surgery. He returned in 1991 to play 14 tournaments, climaxing in his 14th US Open semi-final, where he celebrated his 39th birthday with a tumultuous fourth-round victory over Aaron Krickstein, soaring from 2-5 in the fifth set to win 3-6, 7-6(8), 1-6, 6-3, 7-6(4). Connors, who won 10 of 11 matches on his birthday at the US Open, famously remarked at 6-6 in the decider, “This is what they paid for. This is what they want.” He then continued his magical run by battling back from a set and a break down against Paul Haarhuis, but lost to Jim Courier, becoming the oldest semi-finalist since 39-year-old Ken Rosewall lost the title match to none other than Connors himself 17 years before. He was subsequently named as the ATP Comeback Player of the Year for 1991.

“If you took the 10 greatest moments or points in US Open history, six or seven of them would be his, and three or four would be at the 1991 Open,” said McEnroe. Highlights of the Krickstein match are reshown each year at Flushing Meadows, venue of the US Open, and it cemented Connors’ reputation as the people’s champion in New York.

McEnroe on Connors
"One of the things I respected about Connors was that one second he would be spewing a four-letter word, the next second he would do something that had people falling off the aisles. Yet he never seemed to lose his concentration."

Connors on Connors
"Tennis was never work for me; tennis was fun. And the tougher the battle, and the longer the match, the more fun I had."

Journalist Graeme Agars on Connors
Connors was the ultimate showman on court, delivering not only a fierce, never-give-an-inch playing performance, but he also knew better than most how to get a crowd involved in a match and how to perform on ‘stage’.

One of the most entertaining players the game has ever known. Weak forehand, average service game, not known for coming to the net often, but one of best two-handed backhands ever seen. Smaller than most of his rivals, bigger heart than anyone, great tactician. Kind of jerky, but that’s part of the charm with Jimbo.

The longevity and competitiveness are impressive, but he never won the French (SF 4 times) and only played the Australian twice. He also rather selfishly (& needlessly IMO) fought with the ATP, skipping Roland Garros four more years after his 1974 ban, and often took the fall series and YE championships off. Only played one Davis Cup & he was rude af to everyone (stayed at different hotel, wouldn’t practice or come to team dinners, et al.) He was a PITA for everyone - other players, coaches, hapless linesmen, tour officials, vulgar beyond belief, and fed off the energy of the crowd - negative or positive. Like many who adopted NYC as their town, he did it his way.

8. (9 points) John McEnroe 7 GS, 5 Davis Cups

YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS. BEHIND LENDL? ARE YOU MAD?

77 Singles titles, 78 doubles (Open era record for combined titles but WDGAF.) 3-time ATP player of the Year 1981, 1983, 1984. 4 US Open and 3 Wimbledon titles, excelled at YE culmination events with a record 8 titles (+ a record 7 nobody cares doubles.) 170 overall weeks at #1, 7th best (in ascending order: Nadal, Lendl, Connors, Djokovic, Sampras, Federer.) Career 881–198 (81.6%), won all of his majors 1979-84, twice achieving a double. His 1984 season of 82-3 (96.4%) remains the ATP record.

Queens bred, true New Yorker. One of the best tennis commentators of all time. As an 18 year old amateur he got into the 1977 Wimbledon through the qualifier tournament, and made it all the way to the Semis before losing to Connors. It remains the best performance by an amateur or a qualifier in Open era GS tennis. Turning pro in late 1978, he was a semifinalist at the US Open, then win five YE events, winning the Masters Grand Prix with a straight sets win over Ashe. He finished the year #4.

For the next four years he battled Borg for supremacy. At 20 in 1979, he was the youngest US Open champion since Pancho Gonzales. He beat Borg at the WTC Finals, his 10th Singles title of the Year (now #3.)

In 1980 Borg won his 5th straight Wimbledon in a 5 set marathon over McEnroe that many considered the best Wimbledon finals on record. He beat Björn in 5 sets at the US Open, and finished the year #2.

The next year the British tabloids dubbed him “Superbrat” after several match tirades. On July 4, he ended Borg’s 41-match winning streak on grass  McEnroe again beat Borg in 4 sets at the US Open, his 3rd straight at Flushing Meadow. Named AP Athlete of the Year, the first since Budge in 1938, he would remain year end #1 through 1984.

1982-83 saw several finals and more tour success, but only his 4th straight final at the ‘83 Wimbledon resulted in a GS title.

Then came his ethereal 1984 campaign, with 13 titles, 2 GS, and a 42-match win streak to begin the year. That ended with a 5 set loss to Lendl at Roland Garros after winning the first two sets - the most bitter defeat of his career. For the second straight year he dropped only one set at Wimbledon, routing Connors in the Final. He beat Connors in a 5 setter at Flushing and took Lendl out in straight sets for his 7th and last Grand Slam. His combined record VS Connors & Lendl (#2 & #3) was 11-1. He withdrew from the last major of the season (Australian) due to a wrist injury.

Laver remembers a young McEnroe’s innate ability to play the right shot. “I was very impressed with the way he covered the court, his volleying ability and where to hit the ball at the right time. He just knew what to do when he was a junior and when he hit the Open ranks, that he had to adjust very quickly as pros hit the ball harder. He got to No. 1 aged 21, so it was a transition, but he was ready for it. He had all the strokes, but he had the game already, he just needed to speed it up. When you come from the juniors it takes time to understand the different speeds of strokes and what works. McEnroe was already doing that as a junior, so it was a great asset. He did so many different things well, including how he hit his heavily spun serve, which was a big weapon. He always seemed to be one stroke ahead of everybody and came up with different strokes.”

McEnroe fell off quickly, reaching only one GS finals (straight sets loss to Lendl), and took a 6 month sabbatical in 1986, burned out from the stress of high level play. He won tournaments after he came back, had a few deep runs at GS events, won another WCT Final, but never again reached the heights of his early 80s starburst. His last entry in the top ten was late 1990. He retired in 1992, the #20 player in the world.

Rivalries:

Borg played McEnroe 14 times on tour 1978-81, splitting 7-7. Mac has the edge in Finals 5-4 and GS Finals 3-1. After his second straight GS loss of ‘81, at Louis Armstrong Stadium, Björn walked off before the ceremony and retired shortly thereafter.

Connors faces Johnny Mac 34 times 1977-1991, with McEnroe holding a 20-14 advantage, 6-3 at GS events, 7-7 in all finals. One of the most contentious, embittered rivalries in tennis history. McEnroe was prone to temperamental outbursts laced with profanity. The difference between the two is John has self-awareness and can laugh at himself. He always understood he was part of something larger than himself. Connors is Pete Rose with a racquet, never relinquishing an inch.

Lendl played McEnroe 36 times on the ATP Tour 1980-1992, with Ivan ahead 7-3 in GS matches and 21-15 overall. In all finals, John leads 10-7. They also played 27 invitational matches with Lendl leading 16-11.

McEnroe was married to actress Tatum O’Neal 1986-94 and rocker Patty Smyth since 1997.

Childhood friend and former doubles partner Mary Carillo says, “He was not just a remarkable No. 1, but also a glistening tennis player. He is intellectually curious about a lot of things. If he could have been any kind of artist, he would have been a musician. If he’d chosen any sport to be great in, it would have been basketball. He landed on tennis and he did justice to that.”

7. (10 points) Ivan Lendl 8 GS 1 Davis Cup

1068-242 (81.5%), 94 titles, 270 weeks at #1, record 11 GS runner up finishes, and 7 year end titles.

Lendl pioneered a new style of tennis; his game was built around his forehand, hit hard with heavy topspin, and his success is cited as a primary influence in popularizing the currently common playing style of aggressive baseline power tennis.

There was a progressive arc to Ivan Lendl’s career. He won often when he hit the scene but kept losing GS Finals. Once he got a knack for it, his consistency was phenomenal. He played a game wholly unfamiliar to his peers.

Born in Czechoslovakia to parents who were ranked players, he won the junior French and junior Wimbledon, and was the #1 amateur when he turned pro in late 1978. In 1980 he won 7 titles, 3 in succession on 3 different surfaces. He led Czechoslovakia to its first Davis Cup win. The following year he won 10 events, including his first Masters Grand Prix. Relocated to the United States, he won 15 of 23 events in 1982, with a 44-match win streak. He won all 10 WCT events he entered, twice beating McEnroe in straights sets finals, including Masters Grand Prix to end the year. He won another 7 titles in 1983, but still hadn’t broken through with a Grand Slam even though he was the leading money winner. He lost in 5 sets to Borg in the 1981 French, the 1982 US Open to Connors, and was runner up at both hard court GS Finals in 1983 (AO & US.)

In 1984, having split with his homeland’s government, he bought a home in Greenwich, CT. He came from 2 sets down in the finals at the French Open to beat McEnroe to claim his first major. The American beat him in straight sets at the US Open and the Volvo Masters. He lost the 1985 French to Wilander but claimed his first of three straight US Open crowns in September, dominating McEnroe in 3 sets. This began a run of a record 8 straight US Open finals. He won in straight sets at the WCT Finals and the year end Masters GP over Becker.

He added two more French Opens and two more Masters GP in 1986 & 1987, as well as two more US Opens. From 1985-87, his match winning percentage exceeded 90%, and five times he topped 90%, still a record. (Fed matches his streak of 3 years 2004-06.) He reached ten straight semifinals, a record for 19 years until Roger topped it. ATP Player of the Year 1985-87.

He opened 1989 with his first Australian, and successfully defended it in 1990. He won 10/17 events in the final year of the decade, but from that point forward his goal was his first Wimbledon crown. Between 1993-89 he was a SF 4 times and lost two and Finals.

In 1990 he switched to a larger head racket, skipped the French, won the Queen’s Club in grass, taking out McEnrie and Becker in the SF and F. Reaching the SF for the 7th time, he lost to Edberg at Wimbledon. He again skipped the French in 1991 but lost in the 3R, and Wimbledon remained elusive. His Australian Final loss to Becker that last year was his last GS finals.

Lendl was well known for his meticulous and intensive training and physical conditioning regime, and his scientific approach to preparation and playing. As part of his preparations for the US Open, he hired the same workers who laid the hardcourt surfaces at Flushing Meadows each year to install an exact copy in the grounds of his home in Greenwich.

He retired in 1994, his place in history secure.

Hos playing style was similar to Björn Borg’s heavy top spin, but Lendl’s forehand was flatter with tighter spin. Originally he relied on a slice backhand but saw better results in majors once he developed a top spin. His court coverage was very good. His high toss serve was powerful but inconsistent. His one weakness was his net game, and grass courts tended to neutralize his powerful control and dictating of points from the baseline. Very tough mentally.

He became a permanent resident in 1987 and a US Citizen in 1992. An avid golfer after retirement, he spent much of his time managing the golf careers of his 5 daughters.

His rivalry with McEnroe is documented above. Suffice to say Johnny Mac dominated the early 80s and Ivan was the king from 1985 on.

Hw played a record 5 GS Finals VS Wilander, with Mats edging him 3-2. Overall Lendl leads 15-7.

LAST TWO TIERS

Should be obvious where this is headed, there’s not much suspense beyond the order.

Tier 2 will be the three players we used to debate which was the greatest. I think I know the order but still researching it.

Tier 1 will be the three players who are the greasiest to ever step into the court. Honestly, I don’t know where it’s going to end up.

Edited by BobbyLayne
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Greetings draft nerds.  The poster formerly known as scoobygang has texted me to let me know he has been banned for saying naughty things about our beloved President.  You will have to find a new soccer judge.  I still think he should rate higher than Woz on the list of best judges though.

It’s just a week, right? Could maybe put Soccer in a holding pattern for now, he’s been doing a great job.

Edited by BobbyLayne

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12 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Tier 1 will be the three players who are the greasiest to ever step into the court. Honestly, I don’t know where it’s going to end up.

Greasiest?

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50 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

Yeah sorry I’m just a messenger I’m not spending any more time on this than I already have.  He’s smart enough to have considered these options but he said he was out.  Maybe he just doesn’t like you people.

Anyway, just go into the giant soccer thread and ask one of those guys to do it.  :shrug:

There’s a downside to Hippling...

@timschochet Flop would be a good choice

:2cents:

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

Greasiest?

Definitely applies to one of them.

 

ETA - hopefully that doesn't across as offensive - the one in question is just very sweaty.

Edited by AAABatteries

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6 minutes ago, Mister CIA said:

I'd like to judge the lady swimmers.

Please, we need a rejudging there lol 

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My HW boxing rankings will be next week, won't get to it this weekend. The weather is going to be too nice. 

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1 minute ago, Ilov80s said:

Please, we need a rejudging there lol 

I won't knock the judge, but I don't see anything wrong with being a novelty.  Alex Honnald is a novelty too, but still awesome.  Hmmm, wonder how Honnald would have fared if he was slected as greatest athlete of all-time?

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2 minutes ago, Mister CIA said:

I won't knock the judge, but I don't see anything wrong with being a novelty.  Alex Honnald is a novelty too, but still awesome.  Hmmm, wonder how Honnald would have fared if he was slected as greatest athlete of all-time?

I agree that she didn't really have a long career of swimming highlights but she did accomplish some really wild things that none of the other swimmers drafted would have even attempted. I guess being just about the only person to ever do something isn't as impressive as doing something thousands have done before but just a hundreth of a second faster. 

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2 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Tell him to make a new account and use the alias like everyone else 

what do you mean...Tolstoy was my....friend :unsure:

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Posted (edited)

my large sample size of the the 7 drunk golfers i had a drink with this afternoon agree that Hakeem should be ahead of Duncan and Shaq.  I will take my 2 points in any form....

Edited by joffer

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