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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (2 Viewers)

Men's CBB Coaches (Part Three)

14 pts - Jim Calhoun. I'm kinda shocked he's this high myself. But, the more I thought about it, the more I'd want him coaching my team over the guys behind him on this list. He had it all. He recruited well (though he stole Rudy Gay from Maryland & forever earned my hatred), his game plans were always strong, and he was a great bench coach.

15 pts - Dean Smith. He should have more rings - he blew the 1977 title by going 4 Corners when he had all of the momentum and he had a better team in 1981 than Indiana, plus one of those mid/late 80s teams was better than everyone else.. But, my God, could that man coach. He could be petty (he called the cops on NC State about their cheating to get David Thompson - out of jealousy and spite, not virtue), but he was probably one of the most overall decent men to coach the game. There's a reason almost everyone - including many rivals - loved him. He won a crapload of games in an incredibly difficult conference and national slate. He deserves all of his accolades.

16 pts - Coach K. I'm not looking up how to spell his last name. I hate him. He's the best.

 
Standings After Uruk-Hai correctly ranked Men's BB Coaches - 

 

1 --AAABatteries--126.  :eek:

2 --jwb--111

3 --higgins--111

4 --Gally--110

5 --otb_lifer--108

6 --Zow--107

7 --Ilov80s--105

8 --wikkidpissah--102

9 --joffer--101

10 -Jagov--100

11 -tuffnutt--99

12 -Getzlaf15--98

13 -timschochet--97

14 -Long Ball Larry--92

15 -Kal El--85

16 -DougB--80

 
Gally said:
True but if I was choosing a coach for my kid it would be Wooden by a large margin.  That is why I would have him as #1
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Fair enough. I think the other three were better, but...............

I mean, we're talking immortals at this point - right?

 
AAABatteries said:
Several of my top picks have been judged already  -  I have some small numbers coming up for sure.  I’ll take it though!
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No matter what you were in the top spot at some point.  They can't take that away from you.  Years from now regardless of how this turns out you can sit in the garden and reminisce about the time you were in the top spot of the Greatest of All Time Sports Draft.....

 
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What was the reasoning behind splitting up greatest baseball player, greatest outfielder, and greatest infielder? Am I supposed to judge infielder by their fielding ability, or is Ozzie Smith a terrible pick?

 
Dungeon Master said:
What was the reasoning behind splitting up greatest baseball player, greatest outfielder, and greatest infielder? Am I supposed to judge infielder by their fielding ability, or is Ozzie Smith a terrible pick?
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terrible pick.   Judge off and defense

Creates some drafting strategy?

 
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Reactions: Zow
Dungeon Master said:
What was the reasoning behind splitting up greatest baseball player, greatest outfielder, and greatest infielder? Am I supposed to judge infielder by their fielding ability, or is Ozzie Smith a terrible pick?
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outfielders werent judged by their fielding. i would say general impact, thereby allowing one to more greatly consider fielding without requiring that they do so

 
Dungeon Master said:
What was the reasoning behind splitting up greatest baseball player, greatest outfielder, and greatest infielder? Am I supposed to judge infielder by their fielding ability, or is Ozzie Smith a terrible pick?
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Terrible pick. Career .262 hitter... hit over .300 exactly 1 time. At least he had some pop.. oh wait .328 slugging %

 
Was hoping to see Tris in the top three but stoked with the Calhoun ranking. I had him fifth so score!

 
If the CAT was just SS, then it would be somewhat of a factor.  CAT is INF and that includes 1B, so very little should be given to D.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
If the CAT was just SS, then it would be somewhat of a factor.  CAT is INF and that includes 1B, so very little should be given to D.
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Shouldn't that be up to the judge?  As long as they are consistent with the value.  Defense is part of the game and should have some factor into the evaluation.  

 
Uruk-Hai said:
Men's CBB Coaches (Part Three)

14 pts - Jim Calhoun. I'm kinda shocked he's this high myself. But, the more I thought about it, the more I'd want him coaching my team over the guys behind him on this list. He had it all. He recruited well (though he stole Rudy Gay from Maryland & forever earned my hatred), his game plans were always strong, and he was a great bench coach.

15 pts - Dean Smith. He should have more rings - he blew the 1977 title by going 4 Corners when he had all of the momentum and he had a better team in 1981 than Indiana, plus one of those mid/late 80s teams was better than everyone else.. But, my God, could that man coach. He could be petty (he called the cops on NC State about their cheating to get David Thompson - out of jealousy and spite, not virtue), but he was probably one of the most overall decent men to coach the game. There's a reason almost everyone - including many rivals - loved him. He won a crapload of games in an incredibly difficult conference and national slate. He deserves all of his accolades.

16 pts - Coach K. I'm not looking up how to spell his last name. I hate him. He's the best.
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Dean Smith did the least with the most.

 
As I'm getting ready to drop my coaches analysis, I wanted to note that I don't just use a statistical analysis and let it decide for me.  I use it to get a general ranking order and then I adjusted up or down based upon my personal thoughts on the players (and soon to be coaches and teams).  There is definitely some subjectivity to my rankings, as I feel every good ranking should have...but it is easier to get things organized with some stats, which can also lead me to places I wouldn't have gone mentally with some players. My personal experience/memory is too easily influenced and incomplete to trust it alone.  Plus for anything pre-late-80's, I can only rely on replays and articles I've read.  I believe objective analysis is necessary to provide a framework for rankings, and then go from there.

 
@Jayrod That is generally how I am dealing with the female track & field category at the moment. Using the cold, hard data to arrive at some kind of initial ranking.

Turns out to be quite a piece of work for the T&F category. There are Olympics, Outdoor & Indoor World Championships, Outdoor & Indoor Euros, Pan Am Games, Commonwealth Games, Goodwill Games, Hypos, etc, etc. Add to that the diverse nature of the category (sprinters, jumpers, vaulters, middle/long distance runners), the different eras they competed in & the various awards available and you get a university level research project to properly judge this thing. And I know I'll probably upset at least one person with the results!! Still, a worthwhile exercise. Time consuming as hell, but worth doing well. 

 
Jagov said:
@Jayrod That is generally how I am dealing with the female track & field category at the moment. Using the cold, hard data to arrive at some kind of initial ranking.

Turns out to be quite a piece of work for the T&F category. There are Olympics, Outdoor & Indoor World Championships, Outdoor & Indoor Euros, Pan Am Games, Commonwealth Games, Goodwill Games, Hypos, etc, etc. Add to that the diverse nature of the category (sprinters, jumpers, vaulters, middle/long distance runners), the different eras they competed in & the various awards available and you get a university level research project to properly judge this thing. And I know I'll probably upset at least one person with the results!! Still, a worthwhile exercise. Time consuming as hell, but worth doing well. 
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As long as its not me you are good to go.

 
I've gotten through 4/16 MMA fighters. The top guys are getting more thorough write-ups, so it should speed up somewhat the rest of the way.

 
I'm working on NCAA F Defensive players.   There is very, very little info out there.  Not much in the way of any stats.  Players played 1-3 years at their schools.  So multiple All American doesn't really have an edge because a guy was so good he got drafted after one year?  Found only two ranking lists worth anything.   If anyone has anything, let me know.  Will probably just read everyone's wiki entry during college period and assign that a number to go with the few other things I have.    

 
No scores for almost a full day.  The anticipation is starting to be like waiting for Christmas morning.....I just hope I don't end up with coal in my stocking

 
Here are your super official NBA-COACHES Category Rankings

My objective criteria included rings, Coach of the Year awards, Win%, Total wins, Post-season appearances, PS Win% and online rankings.  Don't know that I really overly weighted or discounted any category as I think it takes a number of factors to determine success as a coach.  Longevity, regular season success and post season success are all factors of equal value, IMO and general perception among the pundits helps with all of this.  I also through in a little bit of subjectivity from their strategies, innovations and general impact on the league.

Top coaches not selected - Rudy Tomjanovich, Rick Adelman and George Karl.  Not sure if they would have finished above anyone in the draft or not as they were right around that 12-20 range in most online rankings I read.

As always, from bottom to top:

Tier 4 - The really good (but not quite great)

#16 (1 pt) - Tommy Heinsohn - Coached for only 8 years, all with Boston and Red Auerbach as the GM.  Won two rings with 3 HOF's and did win one COY award.  His total wins ranked #15 on this list and he was never ranked above #20 on any of the all-time lists I found online and had the fewest postseason appearances with six.  Basically he had a short career with a good team for a great franchise.  He performed well, but few coaches have been set up as well so it wasn't enough to get him out of the cellar here.

#15 (2 pts) - Bill Fitch - 2x COY and 1 win shy of 1,000 total wins for his career for five different franchises.  Won a ring with the Bird led Celtics in 1981.  Ranked as high as 12th by one pundit.  However, he is the only guy on this list whose career regular season win percentage is below .500 (.460) and had a losing season 14 out of 25 years.  I liked his longevity, postseason and COY awards, but that win percentage was a huge detractor.  I just don't see how a guy can be considered an all time great if he was generally unsuccessful for most of his career.

#14 (3 pts) - KC Jones - Won two rings (both with Bird-led Boston....I'm seeing a trend here).  However, he never had one losing season in 9 full seasons as an NBA head coach and made the playoffs every year.  He was fired 36 games into the 91-92 season by Seattle with a .500 record (who eventually were coached by George Karl and made the playoffs with 47 wins).  Definitely worthy to be selected, but still not good enough to get out of this tier.

#13 (4 pts) - Billy Cunningham - He coached for only 8 years, all with Philly.  He won one ring with 4 HOF's and no COY awards.  However, those 8 years were stellar, with postseason appearances every year (including 3 finals appearances) and he posted the 2nd best regular season win% and the 3rd best playoff win% on this list.  And this was mostly in an era of the Bird-Celtics and the Magic-Lakers.  The only thing that really kept him so low on the list was the shortened nature of his tenure.

Tier 3 - The almost or sometimes greats

#12 (5 pts) - John Kundla   - He was the coach of the first dynasty in the NBA.  Coached Mikan and the Minneapolis Lakers to 4 out of the first 5 NBA titles.  He had 10 NBA seasons and one BAA season (the precursor to the NBA) where he won that title.  Over those 10 years,  he made the playoffs 9 times and has the 2nd highest postseason win% on this list.  He was also known as a players coach and developed the position of power forward by pairing Vern Mikkelsen with Mikan down low.  Before the guys at the top of this list came along, it was Big John followed by everyone else.  However, I just can't justify putting a guy that coached against such limited competition with a stacked team in such an early era any higher.

#11 (6 pts) - Dr. Jack Ramsay - If this contest were about which coach was the most impressive human, Ramsay would probably win it hands down.  The man was beloved and had a career in basketball that spanned well beyond the NBA.  But his NBA career is worthy of many accolades as well.  He won a title with Portland and finished his career with 16 postseason appearances in 20 full seasons (he resigned in 1988 from the Pacers after starting out 0-7).  He was fanatical about his players being in shape and he was overly emotional with wins and losses, but was regarded as an innovator and master motivator.  His numbers aren't as high as some of the guys below him, but his impact across the NBA was a great one and he retired from coaching with 908 total wins.

#10 (7 pts) - Red Holzman - He won one COY and two titles with the Knicks.  I am too young to have seen those teams play, but I am somewhat fascinated by the Reed-Frazier led Knicks teams and their slew of HOFers.  He was the first to utilize pressure defense for the entire game and one of the first to use film for scouting and study with his coaching staff and players.  He was also known for how well he handled the pressure of NYC (the mecca of basketball).  Those Knicks were a cultural phenomenon, a basketball revelation and a big part of NBA history and Red was at the helm.

#9 (8 pts) - Jerry Sloan - 20 postseason appearances in 26 seasons including a streak of 15 straight.  He ran the pick and roll before it was cool and was known as one of the meanest, toughest SOB's to coach in the league.  He never won a COY or a title (thanks to MJ), but amassed 1,319 total wins and had a career regular season win% over 600.  He may have been a red ### and never got to the top, but the length of his career combined with consistent success makes him a top 10 coach of all time.

#8 (9 pts) - Lenny Wilkens - He has the 2nd most regular season wins and the 2nd most total wins in NBA history and had 20 postseason appearances in 32 seasons. He won a title with Seattle and won a COY award.  He was a master at crafting teams that performed better than the sum of their parts and he never coached a HOF player in their prime.  While we can speculate what he may have done with more talent, what he did do with what he had was great enough to be firmly placed inside the top ten of all time.

#7 (10 pts) - Don Nelson - Nellie is the true mastermind behind today's "small ball" and inventor of the "point forward".  He also is the clubhouse leader in regular season wins and won 3 COY awards (although no titles).  He had 18 playoff appearances in 31 years but never made the finals.  However, his 8th seeded Warriors squad upset the #1 seed Mavericks in 2007, which is one of the most memorable upsets in NBA history.  He also has been reportedly smoking pot since he retired, which is irrelevant to this analysis but notable nonetheless.

#6 (11 pts) - Larry Brown - LB easily leads this list in number of coaching stops in his career and led eight different NBA teams into the postseason.  His career was tumultuous and not without controversies but the numbers do not lie, he could coach.  He coached the AI-Philly team to the Finals in 2001 and then led the Pistons to back to back finals in 2004 & 2005, winning it in 2004.  He had 18 total postseason appearances in 27 seasons, had 100 postseason wins and 1,098 regular season wins.  He was in the top 8 of every online list and is the only coach to win both an NCAA title and an NBA title.  He may have been a nomad, but it seems as though he thrived in change and embraced multiple styles throughout his coaching career, but always emphasized simplicity and "playing the right way".

#5 (12 pts) - Chuck Daly - This is probably the one coach who got the most benefit of subjective treatment.  Sure he won 2 titles, made the playoffs in 12 out of 13 full seasons and had regular season and playoff win%s of nearly 600.  But he was also one of the most gifted communicators and collaborators in NBA history.  He turned the offensive minded, fast breaking (and losing) Pistons into the defense first Bad Boys.  He made Dennis Rodman a DPOY.  He coached the Dream Team and received rave reviews from the team's stars for his coaching and managing style.  And, oh yeah, he had style the whole time.  Tailored suits, perfect hair and all he did was win.  His total win numbers are lower than most of the coaches around him in these rankings, but he also didn't get his first head coaching job until age 51.  What he did with the time he did have was remarkable and worthy of this spot.

Tier 2 - The truly great ones

#4 (13 pts) - Pat Riley - The hair was what I remembered most about Riley watching him coach the Lakers when I was a kid.  I didn't know I was watching a master of strategy and motivation.  Showtime basketball predated Riley, but he brought the defense up to a level that won them four championships.  He led the Knicks to the Finals in 1994 where they lost to the Rockets and finally won a 5th ring in 2006 with the Wade/Shaq led Heat.  He coached great defense throughout his career and made the playoffs in 21 of his 24 seasons as a head coach.  The longevity and variation of styles with which he won is remarkable and he is one of the few NBA people to have had great success at multiple levels of the NBA (player, coach and executive).

#3 (14 pts) - Red Auerbach - His NBA coaching career began with the Tri-City Blackhawks in 1949 where his team went 28-29.  The next year he joined the Boston Celtics and that was his lone losing season in 17 seasons of coaching in the NBA.  At the end of that 17 years, he stepped back from coaching after raising up their 8th consecutive NBA championship banner and 9th in 10 years.  He emphasized teamwork and took a personalized approach to each player.  He is also credited with helping to break the color barrier in the NBA by drafting the first black player and then by utilizing the first all-black starting five.  For almost 40 years, he was considered the greatest coach of all time.  Most pundits still rank him as #2, but the landscape of the NBA was not as difficult to navigate in the 1950's and 60's as it has been for the past 20 years.

#2 (15 pts) - Gregg Popovich - A player's coach who is more demanding of his players than almost any other coach.  He is almost as renown as a wine and food critic as he is a basketball coach.  If there is one coach on this list I'd most like to have a conversation with, it is Pop.  But all that complexity aside, all he does is win.  He has more total wins than anyone in NBA history and more postseason appearances as well.  5 rings, 3 COY awards, a record 22 straight postseason appearances and he still isn't done.  Most lists have him as #3 behind Red, but I don't see it.  The only thing Red has over Pop is rings, and as I mentioned earlier, his era was much simpler than the NBA of the past 20 years.  No one has embraced the international players as well as Popovich and his shift from the slow grind out defensive battles of his early years to the beautiful ball movement of these later seasons was revolutionary to the game.  Rumors abound of his eminent retirement and he was about to have only his second losing season in 24 years before this season was cut off.  He is 71, so who knows, but I hope the ride doesn't end here.

Tier 1 - the GOAT

#1 (16 pts) - Phil Jackson - I thought it would be closer than it was but after my research it really wasn't close, hence the one man tier.  Sure he coached the greatest player of all time in MJ, but so did a couple of other guys.  He also wasn't Kobe's only coach or Shaq's.  But he went 20/20 in postseason appearances and won 11 titles.  He won his only coach of the year award during the record setting season in 95-96.  He has the highest win% in both regular season and postseason and was the unanimous #1 in every list I found online.  Few coaches have had the kind of talent to work with that Phil had, but none were able to match his success.  The Zen-master is truly the GOAT of NBA coaches.

 
Standings after Jayrod's rankings of NBA Coaches - 

 

1 --AAABatteries--135

2 --Gally--126

3 --higgins--125

4 --jwb--119

5 --otb_lifer--114

6 --Zow--112

7 --timschochet--112

8 --Getzlaf15--111

9 --tuffnutt--109

10 -Ilov80s--107

11 -Jagov--107

12 -joffer--105

13 -wikkidpissah--103

14 -Long Ball Larry--103

15 -Kal El--97

16 -DougB--83

 
I had hoped to get through both the coaches and teams write ups today, but I got interrupted about five times today trying to get it done.

I'm going to be out of pocket for a few days, so the NBA teams rankings will have to wait until after Wednesday at least.

Good luck and good night.

 
Ok, here's the rankings for NCAA F Defensive players.

The judging process for each category can get quite interesting.  We've all commented on how easy or hard they can be, but it's interesting that you'll be searching for something that actually makes ####### sense and then you find it.  Sometimes, it takes awhile to find it. LOL.     

That was the case here when I read each wiki page and then went into detail behind what each award means.  So guys that won the Lombardi Award for being the best player at ANY position got a tad more credit than the Bednarik/Nagurski, best D player awards, and the Hendricks, Butkus, Outland, specific D position awards.

Had a couple decent ranking lists that helped.  Even took a look at the result of ones career, their NFL Draft Order position.  That just helped give the overall impact that player had for his career.


1 PT - Pat Fitzgerald.    Northwestern.   Fitzgerald starred at linebacker for the Wildcats in the mid-1990s, helping to lead the team to a 10–1 regular season record in 1995 and a berth in the 1996 Rose Bowl.   He did win Bednarik and Nagueski twice, but I could not get past the fact that he was not drafted.  He was signed as a free agent by the Dallas Cowboys, who released him after just two pre-season games.


2 PTS -  Sam Huff.   West Virginia.  He started at guard as a sophomore and tackle the next two years, after winning a letter as a backup guard during his freshman season. He was a four-year letterman and helped lead West Virginia to a combined four-year mark of 31-7 and a berth in the Sugar Bowl.  Was All American once.  No major awards.  Drafted 30th.


3 PTS - Brian Bosworth.  Oklahoma. A strong-side inside linebacker throughout his college career, Bosworth was known for raising his level of play in big games. He was regarded as a great tackler, although he was occasionally criticized for tackling too high. The winner of the first two Butkus Awards as the nation's top college linebacker, he remains the only player ever to have won the accolade more than once.   Drafted 28th.


4 PTS - David Pollack.   Georgia.   For three consecutive seasons, he was recognized as a first-team All-Southeastern Conference (SEC) selection and a first-team All-American (2002, 2003, 2004)—twice as an NCAA consensus first-team honoree, having received the first-team selections of a majority of All-America selector organizations in 2002 and 2004. He is only the second player in Bulldogs team history to earn first-team All-American honors in three seasons.  Lombardi and Bednarik winner in 2004.  Drafted 17th.

5 PTS -  Jack Tatum.  Ohio St.  Tatum was a first-team All-Big Ten in 1968, 1969 and 1970. In his final two seasons he was a unanimous All-American.  Rated him slightly ahead of Pollack for being on the lists I had while Poolack was not on them.   Drafted 19th   


6 PTS -  Terrell Suggs.   Arizona St.   He set an NCAA single-season record with 24 sacks in 2002.  Lombardi and Nagurski winner 2002.  Drafted 10th. 


7 PTS - Lavar Arrington.  Pittsburgh.   Arrington received several honors during his college career, including the Chuck Bednarik Award, **** Butkus Award, and Lambert Award in 1999. He was an All-Big-Ten selection, a first-team All-American in 1998, and a consensus first-team All-American in 1999. Arrington finished ninth in balloting for the 1999 Heisman Trophy.   Drafted 2nd.


8 PTS - Rich Glover.   Nebraska.   Lombardi and Outland Winner 1972.   Only the second player so far to be on both ranking lists (that each had at least 50 players), but was only drafted #69.


9 PTS - Bubba Smith.   Michigan St.    Two All-Americans, but no major awards. Drafted 1st.


10 PTS - Randy White.    Maryland.     During his sophomore season, new head coach Jerry Claiborne moved Randy to defensive end (from FB), noting that he had the skill to be "one of the best five linemen in the U.S." The move was a natural fit, as by his senior year, he was, as Claiborne put it, "as fast as some of the offensive backs I had coached." In that senior year (1974), he won numerous awards and honors, including the Outland Trophy, the Lombardi Award.   Drafted 2nd.  


11 PTS - Ndamukong Suh.    Nebraska.    As a college senior, Suh became one of the most decorated players in college football history. He won numerous awards including the Associated Press College Football Player of the Year Award, Bronko Nagurski Trophy, Chuck Bednarik Award, Lombardi Award, and Outland Trophy, and was recognized as a unanimous All-American.     Drafted 2nd.  


12 PTS - Tommy Nobis.     Texas.    Nobis is one of college football's all-time greatest linebackers. In his tenure with the Texas Longhorns (1963–1965) he averaged nearly 20 tackles a game and, as the only sophomore starter, was an important participant on the Longhorns' 1963 national championship team, which defeated #2 Navy led by Heisman Trophy winner Roger Staubach in the Cotton Bowl.    Maxwell Award 1965.  Was also a 2-way player.   Drafted 1st.


13 PTS - Leroy Selmon, Jr.     Oklahoma.    Selmon was named a consensus All-American in 1974 and 1975.  Lombardi 1975.   Drafted 1st.


14 PTS - Bronko Nagurski.     Minnesota.    Two-way player.   They didn't have awards win he played!!   Did sinish 14th and 24th on the lists I had.   Dominating force when he played.


15 PTS - Hugh Green.    Pittsbugh.   Dominated all four years he played.  53 sacks.  In 1980, Green won the Walter Camp Award, the Maxwell Award, the Lombardi Award and was the Sporting News Player of the Year, the UPI Player of the Year and finished second in the Heisman Trophy balloting, losing to running back George Rogers 


16 PTS - Charles Woodson.    Michigan.     Woodson, a "two-way player" who played both offense and defense, won the Heisman Trophy in the same year. To date, he is the only primarily defensive player to win the Heisman, and he is the most recent player to win the Heisman who was not either a running back or quarterback. He became the starter after the second game of his freshman season and played in 34 straight games. In addition to playing cornerback, he returned punts and occasionally played as a wide receiver.

 
Standings after Getzlaf15's rankings of NCAA F Defensive Players


 

1 --AAABatteries--145

2 --Gally--134

3 --higgins--130

4 --otb_lifer--126

5 --Zow--126

6 --timschochet--125

7 --Ilov80s--123

8 --jwb--122

9 --tuffnutt--120

10 -Getzlaf15--117

11 -joffer--112

12 -Jagov--111

13 -Kal El--106

14 -wikkidpissah--105

15 -Long Ball Larry--104

16 -DougB--98

 
Question:   would anyone mind if I made my final selections (8, I believe)?

I don't believe any of my remaining picks have been judged yet -- if they were, or will be by the time I make them, my pick can obviously be ignored.

TIA

 
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