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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (1 Viewer)

NFL Greatest Defensive Linemen Rankings

Having already done the offensive linemen, I was able to use the similar process for the category on this one.

Criteria:
I randomly write down the players names. I have no clue as to the order they were drafted.
*Awards - 12 max.    2 pts for each Player Of the Year (POY), NFL100, League MVP, 1st Team All decade.  1 pt fpr 2nd Team All Decade.
*All Pro Years (AP) - 12 max.   Relative ranking of all involved with #1 getting 12 pts.
*Pro Bowl years (PB) -  5 max.   Same as above with a max of 5 pts.  40% of AP that I used before.
*Approximate Value (weighted) - 10 pt max.   This is a career total number done by FBref.com.  Relatively ranked...
*Approximate Value (AV10) #of 10+ seasons - 10pt max.   FBref.com assigns a Relative Value to all NFL players each year. High is around 20.  A 10 or higher is a solid year. This is the relative rank of the number of AV10 seasons a player had in his career.   Rewards consistent solid effort over a few great years.
*Internet Ranking Lists - 3pts max each.   Found three solid lists.  Used only the Top16 from each list.  Relatively ranked.

Possible Players Missing - Buck Buchanon, Howie Long



1 PT -  Joe Klecko.    11.75 pts.     Must have been our token Jets fan that picked this one.  I'm too embarrassed to look to see who drafted him.  His six PB(4) and AP(2) are barely more than half of anyone else on the list. I think his only award was the trophy for finishing 6th place in 8th Grade Pop Warner. By far the lowest Value scores on the list also.


2 PTS -  Chris Doleman.     22.74 pts.    Only two 1990 2nd Teams and two PB hurt Doleman. He was in the middle of a cluster of eight players in AV scores, but wasn't on any of the three Net Lists.


3 PTS - Julius Peppers.    28.76 pts.   9 PB and only 3 AP.  On only 1 of 3 Net Lists.   Two 1st teams and a 2nd.   Mostly at the bottom in many cats with the group of 8-9 that are pretty similar.   Lack of AP was the major thing here.


4 PTS - Warren Sapp.      30.64 pts.   7PB and 4 AP to barely edge Peppers.   Had a POY that Peppers did not, which helped him overcome being a fraction under Peppers on AV scores.  Two 1st and one 2nd team also.


5 PTS -  Aaron Donald.     30.79 pts.    Has two POY awards.   6PB and 5 AP in six seasons.   His AV scores are ok with only six years.  He was 6th on one of the Net lists which pushed him ahead of Sapp, which is the right call.


6 PTS -  JJ Watt.      31.09 pts.       Has three POY awards.  Injuries over the years have hurt for sure.   5 PB and 5 AP.   AP weighted was higher than Donald's to create the edge here. Was 7th on one net list.    These last three are so close, but I like the order of them.


7 PTS -   Michael Strahan.    32.26 pts.      Has a POY, 1st and 2nd team.   7PB and 4 AP.    AP Weighted was 5th at 121.  (Watt 98).  Nine AV10+ seasons was 4th on the list.  Was on two Net lists and 9th and 10th.


8 PTS -  John Randle.    32.73 pts.    Two 1st teams and first to have a NFL100.    7PB and 6AP to edge Strahan.    Was on all three Net lists.   The extra AP's were just enough to have him slide past Strahan.


9 PTS -  Deacon Jones.   34.87 pts.     8PB and 5AP.   Had 3rd lowest AVWeighted score and only five AP10+ seasons.   Historians and Net Lists love him though. All in the Top 6 despite numbers that just don't match the rest.


10 PTS -  Merlin Olsen.     38.50 pts.    14 PB and 5 AP.    Had eight AV10+ seasons.   Also in the Top 6 of the three Net lists.


11 PTS -  Gino Marchetti.     39.53 pts.     11 PB and 7 AP in 57 less games than Jonathan Garvey.   He had eight AV10+ seasons also,   Was #7 on each of the Net lists, but did more than Merlin did.


12 PTS - Bob Lilly.    39.55 pts.    Had 11PB and 7 AP also.    His AV scores were just slightly higher than Gino's  Had one more 1st team than Gino.   This one was a close one!


13 PTS - Mean Joe Greene.    40.54 pts.     Had two POY.   10PB and 4AP.    Was 4th or 5th on the each of the Net lists.   The two POY to Lilly's none of that type pushed him a point ahead of Lilly.


14 PTS - Alan Page.    44.68 pts.    9PB and 6AP.     AV Wighted of 135 of 3rd highest.   His 10 AV10+ seasons was also 3rd.   5th/3rd/5th on the Net lists.


The Top TWO players were clearly 1/2 in this Category.


15 PTS -  Bruce Smith.   59.36 pts.     15 pts better than Page!!     Had the most games played at 279.   11PB and 8AP(1stT).     had 147 AV career points, clearly #2 here.Tied for the high in AV10+ seasons with 13.   That means he was a Top 10 NFL player 13 times.  That's insane.   Was 2nd/2nd/1st on the three net lists.


16 PTS -  Reggie White.   60.02 pts.      It's amazing these two were so, so close, despite being so, so far ahead of the rest of the field.   13PB(1st) and 8AP(1stT) edged Smith a tad.   His 157 Career AV is one point behind all-time NFL defensive leader and 6th for any player.  Had 13 AV10+ seasons also like Smith.    Was 1st/1st/2nd on the three Net lists.

 

 
Standings after Jagov's ratings of Women's Track and Field -

 

1 --AAABatteries--165

2 --Ilov80s--151

3 --tuffnutt--146

4 --Gally--145

5 --otb_lifer--143

6 --Zow--142

7 --higgins--141

8 --timschochet--140

9 --joffer--139

10 -Getzlaf15--136

11 -Jagov--134

12 -jwb--133

13 -DougB--122

14 -Long Ball Larry--118

15 -wikkidpissah--111

16 -Kal El--110

 
Standings after Getzlaf15's rankings of NFL Defensive Linemen - 

 

1 --AAABatteries--169

2 --Ilov80s--164

3 --tuffnutt--160

4 --Gally--155

5 --otb_lifer--155

6 --Zow--153

7 --Getzlaf15--151

8 --timschochet--146

9 --higgins--143

10 -joffer--142

11 -Jagov--139

12 -jwb--134

13 -DougB--131

14 -Long Ball Larry--126

15 -Kal El--126

16 -wikkidpissah--118

 
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I screwed up with defensive linemen in retrospect. I shoulda gone more recent with Bruce Smith over Deacon Jones. Jones is one of those "eye test" guys that was always touted on broadcasts when I was coming up as a kid. Used to always hear about all the sacks Jones had BUT that sacks weren't counted back then so one knew for sure. Kind of a mysterious thing ... "Rack up all the sacks you want, Gastineau -- Deacon had more! (We think)"

 
Getzlaf15 said:
NFL Greatest Defensive Linemen Rankings

1 PT -  Joe Klecko.    11.75 pts.     Must have been our token Jets fan that picked this one.  I'm too embarrassed to look to see who drafted him.  His six PB(4) and AP(2) are barely more than half of anyone else on the list. I think his only award was the trophy for finishing 6th place in 8th Grade Pop Warner. By far the lowest Value scores on the list also.
Click to expand...
guilty.

Well, it was fun to lead this thing for a few categories, but I've sunk like a stone. 2nd 1 I've taken.

 
Category 54. (continued; Tier 1 & 2)

Greatest Women’s Tennis Player
 

Tier 2

“00/00” (love/love)

6. (11 points) Billie Jean King                        

12 Grand Slams (18 Finals)

8 Grand Slams in the Open era

695–155 (81.76%) match record

129 Titles

67 titles in the Open era (7th)

#1 six years (prior to computer rankings)

5’4”

Founded the WTA. Iconic figure, championed the tour, gender equality, fought for equal prize money.

Billie Jean King has come to personify women’s equality in sports thanks to her famous "Battle of the Sexes" win against Bobby Riggs in 1973, immortalized in countless retrospectives, books and Hollywood films.

Her track record outside of that match more than stands on its own. Not only did she win 12 Grand Slam titles in singles, but she took home the career Grand Slam, winning all four majors.

Billie Jean King has done more for women’s tennis than any other player. She helped establish the WTA in 1973, gave women’s tennis notoriety when she defeated Bobby Riggs in the battle of the sexes and has served as a mentor for many top players including the Williams’ sisters.

Won 17 titles in 1971, 3rd highest total. If you based her complete accomplishments on what she has done for tennis beyond the court, she would be number one. In addition to helping create the WTA Tour she also was a champion for equal pay for the women’s tour. She won the career Grand Slam.

In 1972, she was the joint winner, with John Wooden, of the Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Yearaward and was one of the Time Persons of the Year in 1975. She has also received the Presidential Medal of Freedom. In 2006 the USTA National Tennis Center in NYC was renamed in her honor.

King won the US Open in 1972 but received US $15,000 less than the men's champion Ilie Năstase. She stated that she would not play the next year if the prize money were not equal. In 1973, the US Open became the first major tournament to offer equal prize money for men and women. Today, all the grand slam events have equal prize money.

King won a record 20 career titles at Wimbledon – six in singles, 10 in women's doubles, and four in mixed doubles. Overall she has 39 Grand Slam titles in Singles, Doubles, and Mixed, 3rd behind Court and Navratilova. 

King played 51 Grand Slam singles events from 1959 through 1983, reaching at least the semifinals in 27 and at least the quarterfinals in 40 of her attempts. King was the runner-up in six Grand Slam singles events.

An indicator of her mental toughness in Grand Slam singles tournaments was her 11–2 career record in deuce third sets, i.e., third sets that were tied 5–5 before being resolved. From 1971-75 she reached a GS 7 final times in 12 attempts, and won every finals, 6 by straight sets. Between 1966-75, King ended the season ranked #1 six times.

She is the oldest female to win a WTA event (39 years, 7 months, 23 days.)

The Grand Dame of Tennis, the women’s game would not be not be where it is without her.

______________________________

5. (12 points) Chris Evert         

18 Grand Slam (34 Finals)

157 titles (2nd)

1309–146 (89.97%) 2nd most

#1 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1980, 1981

5’10”

"Chrissie" was the signature star of 1970s tennis, a time when the game was exploding in popularity in the United States. Evert gave American fans an incredible champion to cheer for as she won 157 titles and 18 Grand Slams. She won a record 7 French Opens and 6 US Opens

Many of her records remain unbroken. She made 34 Grand Slam finals, a record no woman or man has equaled since. She won at least one GS for 13 consecutive years. Evert's career winning percentage in singles matches of 89.97% (1309–146) is the highest in the history of Open Era tennis, for men or women. On clay courts, her career winning percentage in singles matches of 94.55% (382–22) remains a WTA record.

She reached the semifinals or better 52 of the 56 Grand Slams she played, including the semifinals or better of 34 consecutive Grand Slams entered from the 1971 US Open through the 1983 French Open.

She won 16 tournaments in 1974 (100-7 match record, including 55 straight.) and the Channel Slam. A year later she repeated at Roland Garros and won the first of 4 straight US Opens. She added a Wimbledon crown in 1976, and Sports Illustrated named her Sportsman of the Year - the first woman to solely be chosen, and one of four tennis players (Ashe, King, & Serena.) In 1977 & 1978 she went 126-7, winning 18/25 tournaments, including the last US Open at Forest Hills (clay) and the first st Flushing Meadow (hardcourt.) A good all surface platter, she won 125 straight clay matches over 5-1/2 years 1973-79. She had another clay court streak of 64 matches, included the 1979-80 titles at the French.

Evert was one of the first true sex symbols of the WTA. Chrissy was America’s Sweetheart. As a competitor, few were as mentally tough. She was known as the Ice Queen. Her 260 weeks at #1 ranks 4th behind only Serena, Graf and Navratilova. Her 18 Slam Titles in the Open Era, tie her for 3rd with Navratilova.

Her rivalry with Navratilova is the greatest in the history of women’s tennis. “Martina and Chrissy” met an astounding 80 times during their careers with Navratilova holding a 43-37 advantage, including a 10-4 head-to-head record in Grand Slam finals. The rivalry lasted 15 years, a feat that may not be matched. She won each of the Grand Slam titles at least twice and the Year End Championship 4 times. Evert’s 9 Slam Titles in the 1970’s ranked 1st and 9 in the 1980’s ranked second.

Off the court, Evert had many highly publicized romances. She has also gone for athletes. She dated Jimmy Connors in the 1970’s eventually married British Tennis Star John Lloyd and then divorced him and married US Ski Olympian Andy Mill, the father of her sons. In recent years she married and then divorced Golf legend Greg Norman.

______________________________

Tier 1  

“OH MY!”

4. (13 points) Margaret Court 

24 Grand Slams (29 Finals)

11 Open era Grand Slams (12 Finals)

1970 Calendar Year Grand Slam

1,177-106 (91.74%) match record 

593–56 (91.37%) best % of the Open era

192 titles

92 Open era titles (4th)

5’9”

The 1960s and 1970s saw the peak of Australian tennis with Margaret Court and Rod Laver, whose names are commemorated on two of the Australian Open show courts today.

By the numbers, however, Court surpassed even Laver’s achievements, winning a record 24 Grand Slam singles titles.

Some declare Court as the greatest player that ever played. She has 24 career Grand Slam singles titles, but 13 of those titles were before the Open Era.

She also won 11 of those titles at her home country Australian Open. She was the first woman during the open era to win a grand slam, sweeping  the four titles in 1970. She lost only five times in a grand slam final, only once in the Open era.

24 overall Grand Slam singles titles, 19 doubles and 19 mixed; holds all-time records for most Grand Slam singles titles (24), mixed doubles titles (19) and total titles (62.) In four years, 1962, 65, 69 and 73, she won three of the four Grand Slams; only Wimbledon eluded her in 1962, 69 and 73, and Roland Garros in 1965. She also shares the Open era record for most Grand Slam singles titles as a mother (3) with Kim Clijsters.

She win 12 GS Singles titles as an Amateur, retired for two years, and then won 12 GS Singles titles as an Open era professional. She won 21 titles in 1970, and 18 in both 1969 & 1973. Those are the top 3 spots for most in one season. She is the 5th oldest player to win in the WTA, her last coming at 34 in 1976.

_____________________________

3. (14 points) Steffi Graf

22 Grand Slams (31 Finals)

1988 Golden Slam (4 majors + Olympic Gold)

107 titles (3rd)

900–115 (88.7%) 3rd most

#1 1987-1990, 1993-1996

5’9”

Steffi Graf’s dominance transcended all surfaces more than any other player in the modern era. She was the only woman to win each Grand Slam at least four times, and in perhaps an even more unique achievement, she collected the "Golden Slam" in 1988, winning each of the four majors and the Olympic gold medal in the same year.

Her accomplishment is even more impressive considering that she is the only women’s player to accomplish that goal on three different surfaces (clay, grass and hard court.)

She and Margaret Court are the only players, male or female, to win three Grand Slam tournaments in a calendar year five times (1988, 1989, 1993, 1995 and 1996).

She holds the women’s record of 377 weeks total and 186 consecutive weeks ranked No. 1 on the WTA Tour. She is the only player to win each of the four Grand Slam titles at least four times. From the 1987 French through the 1990 French, Graf advanced to 13 consecutive major finals, winning 9 of them. She finished the year ranked No. 1 a record eight times.  

Graf has 3 of the longest match win streaks in history: 45 in 1987 (7th), 46 in 1988 (6th), and 66 in 1989-90 (2nd.)

Her 17 year GS 89.67% (278-32) match winning percentage is a record; she is the only player to have a 100.00% record three times (1987, 1996-96.)

In the 1988 French Open Final, she scored a double bagel (6-0, 6-0) as her opponent scored only 13 points in 12 games. At 32 minutes it is the quickest GS final ever. She reached 13 consecutive GS Finals and had 3 seasons in which she reached all 4 in the same calendar year.

Her 22 slams ranks third all-time, second only to Serena in the Open era. The only criticism Graf could receive is that at the height of her career her main rival missed significant time. The two-and-a-half years that Monica Seles missed after getting stabbed helped keep Graf at the top.

______________________________

2. (15 points) Martina Navratilova

18 GS (32 Finals)

167 titles (1st)

1,442–219 (86.8%) 1st matches won

5’8”

Martina Navratilova boasted perhaps the greatest serve-and-volley game that women’s tennis has ever seen. It helped her win a record 9 Wimbledon singles titles and helped her to the record for both total singles and doubles titles in the Open Era.

An incredible athlete with unparalleled longevity, Navratilova won the U.S. Open in mixed doubles in 2006, just a month shy of her 50th birthday. She played on the WTA for 32 seasons. 

Navratilova was the first true serve and volley player on the women’s side. She holds too many Grand Slam and WTA records to count. Included in that is a streak of six straight Grand Slam singles titles from Wimbledon in 1983 through the 1984 US Open. She finished the year ranked number one seven times, a total only topped by Steffi Graf. Her 332 weeks and 156 consecutive weeks at number one are also a total only topped by Graf. About the only thing missing from her career was that she never completed the Grand Slam in a calendar year final. She won 4 consecutive GS from Wimbledon 1983 through 1984.

She won 16 titles in 1975, tied for 4th best all time, and 15 in 1982 (T6th.) She has five of the ten longest winning streaks during the open era (3 of the top 5.). Her record 74 match winning streak still stands today.

She won 18 Grand Slam singles titles, 31 major women's doubles titles (an all-time record), and 10 major mixed doubles titles, for a combined total of 59 major titles, marking the Open Era record for the most Grand Slam titles won by one player, male or female. She reached the Wimbledonsingles final 12 times, including for nine consecutive years from 1982 through 1990, and won the women's singles title at Wimbledon a record nine times (surpassing Helen Wills Moody's eight Wimbledon titles), including a run of six consecutive titles, widely regarded as the best performance by any professional player at a major event. She and Billie Jean King each won 20 combined Wimbledon titles, an all-time record. Navratilova is also one of just three women ever to have accomplished a Career Grand Slam in women's singles and doubles, and mixed doubles, called the career "Grand Slam Boxed Set"; consisting of every senior Grand Slam title, a distinction she shares only with two others, Margaret Court and Doris Hart.

______________________________      
 
 

1. (16 points) Serena Williams   

23 Grand Slams (33 Finals)

twice won the Serena Slam (4 straight)

834–144 (85.3%)

73 titles

5’9” 175 lbs

No. 1 in singles on eight separate occasions between 2002 and 2017

When Venus Williams first came onto the scene, her father, Richard, warned the tennis world that her younger sister, Serena, was even better. He was right.

Serena's power game, anchored by a devastating serve, is without equal in the history of the women’s game. No one could put away matches in as dominant a fashion, and her 23 Grand Slam titles are an Open Era record.

5th in titles and matches won, 3rd in weeks as #1 (319), tied with Graf for consecutive weeks (186.) She won each major at least 3 times. With her sister Venus she has won 14 Doubles GS and 3 Gold Medals. She was also the Singles Gold Medalist at the London Games. She and Venus won 4 straight GS Doubles 2009-10.

She is also the most recent player to have won a Surface Slam - title on each surface: hard, clay and grass - in one calendar year. (2015). For her career she has a record 13 hardcourt HS, 7 on grass, and 3 on clay.

The arrival of the Williams sisters has been credited with ushering in a new era of power and athleticism on the women's professional tennis tour.

Williams is primarily a baseline player, and her game is built around taking immediate control of rallies with her powerful and consistent serve, return of serve, and forceful groundstrokes from both her forehand and backhand swings. Williams's forehand is considered to be among the most powerful shots in the women's game, as is her double-handed backhand. Williams strikes her backhand groundstroke using an open stance, and uses the same open stance for her forehand. Williams's aggressive play, a "high risk" style, is balanced in part by her serve, which most say is the greatest in women's tennis history.

She deserves her status as a global icon. And the greatest women's tennis player of all time.

_________________________
 

Greatest Women’s Tennis Player

1. (16 points) Serena Williams   
2. (15 points) Martina Navratilova   
3. (14 points) Steffi Graf   
4. (13 points)  Margaret Court

5. (12 points) Chris Evert   
6. (11 points) Billie Jean King

7. (10 points) Monica Seles   
8. (9 points) Venus Williams    
9. (8 points) Evonne Goolagong Cawley

10. (7 points) Justine Henin   
11. (6 points) Martina Hingis   
12. (5 points) Maureen Connelly

13. (4 points) Helen Wills Moody   
14. (3 points) Althea Gibson  
15. (2 points) Maria Sharapova  
16. (1 point) Anna Kournikova

 
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Standings after BobbyLayne's rankins of Women's Tennis - 

 

1 --tuffnutt--176

2 --AAABatteries--173

3 --Ilov80s--172

4 --otb_lifer--170

5 --Gally--166

6 --Getzlaf15--163

7 --Zow--162

8 --Jagov--152

9 --timschochet--151

10 -higgins--146

11 -joffer--144

12 -DougB--143

13 -jwb--141

14 -Long Ball Larry--140

15 -Kal El--127

16 -wikkidpissah--124

 
BobbyLayne said:
Greatest Women’s Tennis Player

1. (16 points) Serena Williams   
2. (15 points) Martina Navratilova   
3. (14 points) Steffi Graf   
4. (13 points)  Margaret Court

5. (12 points) Chris Evert   
6. (11 points) Billie Jean King

7. (10 points) Monica Seles   
8. (9 points) Venus Williams    
9. (8 points) Evonne Goolagong Cawley

10. (7 points) Justine Henin   
11. (6 points) Martina Hingis   
12. (5 points) Maureen Connelly

13. (4 points) Helen Wills Moody   
14. (3 points) Althea Gibson  
15. (2 points) Maria Sharapova  
16. (1 point) Anna Kournikova
Click to expand...
Coincidentally the top 7 were drafted in the exact order of the scoring.   Maybe we drafters do know something or @BobbyLayne has taught us well.

 
  • Smile
Reactions: Zow
Uruk-Hai said:
Men's CBB Coaches (Part Three)

15 pts - Dean Smith. He should have more rings - he blew the 1977 title by going 4 Corners when he had all of the momentum and he had a better team in 1981 than Indiana, plus one of those mid/late 80s teams was better than everyone else.. But, my God, could that man coach. He could be petty (he called the cops on NC State about their cheating to get David Thompson - out of jealousy and spite, not virtue), but he was probably one of the most overall decent men to coach the game. There's a reason almost everyone - including many rivals - loved him. He won a crapload of games in an incredibly difficult conference and national slate. He deserves all of his accolades.
Click to expand...
"Coach Dean Smith was responsible for reporting NC State to the NCAA because David Thompson – who was already committed to play at NC State – participated in an informal pick-up basketball game on State's campus that included assistant basketball coach, Eddie Biedenbach."  Dean couldn't stand the fact that Thompson chose State over UNC, so he chose the petty route to turn State into the NCAA for a pick-up game. Dean did a lot of sketchy things that made the other ACC coaches mad. He was a great coach though.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
Standings after BobbyLayne's rankins of Women's Tennis - 

 

1 --tuffnutt--176

2 --AAABatteries--173

3 --Ilov80s--172

4 --otb_lifer--170

5 --Gally--166

6 --Getzlaf15--163

7 --Zow--162

8 --Jagov--152

9 --timschochet--151

10 -higgins--146

11 -joffer--144

12 -DougB--143

13 -jwb--141

14 -Long Ball Larry--140

15 -Kal El--127

16 -wikkidpissah--124
Click to expand...
And you just passed me...

 
Got slammed at work the last couple of days. WRs are nearly don’t. Should be tomorrow. 

 
joffer said:
no hawt factor :(
Click to expand...
The internet was oddly specific about Kournikova and a few others, but way low (IMO) on Serena. I bumped her up 20; she always had baby fat. She’s the only player I’ve ever seen who could win a grand slam while playing herself into shape over the fortnight. She was definitely pushing 185 sometimes.

Serena Williams 175   
Martina Navratilova 145   
Steffi Graf 141   
Margaret Court 149

Chris Evert 126    
Billie Jean King 134

Monica Seles 134   
Venus Williams 165   
Evonne Goolagong Cawley 130

Justine Henin 126    
Martina Hingis 130    
Maureen Connolly 120

Helen Wills Moody 150   
Althea Gibson 150    
Maria Sharapova 130    
Anna Kournikova 123

 
BobbyLayne said:
The internet was oddly specific about Kournikova and a few others, but way low (IMO) on Serena. I bumped her up 20; she always had baby fat. She’s the only player I’ve ever seen who could win a grand slam while playing herself into shape over the fortnight. She was definitely pushing 185 sometimes.

Serena Williams 175   
Martina Navratilova 145   
Steffi Graf 141   
Margaret Court 149

Chris Evert 126    
Billie Jean King 134

Monica Seles 134   
Venus Williams 165   
Evonne Goolagong Cawley 130

Justine Henin 126    
Martina Hingis 130    
Maureen Connolly 120

Helen Wills Moody 150   
Althea Gibson 150    
Maria Sharapova 130    
Anna Kournikova 123
Click to expand...
Stefi’s shnozz had to hurt a little

 
Greatest wide receiver analysis and rankings

Preamble: After Rice, I found this category really difficult to rank. Looking at other rankings on the net suggested the same. Older guys like Warfield and Largent were all over the place. Modern guys weren’t in any sort of consistent order.  Longevity versus sheer dominance was difficult to weight. Probably 25ish or so guys could have comprised the top 16 (as you’ll see in my notable omissions). For me, tiers three through six were just interchangeable. Three was near impossible and I’d like to give them each 13 points but not sure that I can. I did take a peak before posting these rankings and was glad to see that the way I ranked them wasn’t drastically different in the draft order. So, while there can be valid disagreements, the impact of these rankings seem relatively vanilla in the scope of this draft.

Criteria:

1.       Awards (significant weight) –All-Pros cannot be overlooked. I did consider them. I also considered the NFL top 100 and the top 10 list they came out with as I thought such is an “award.” Consider pro-bowls as well but not as heavily. 

2.       Statistics (some weight) and eye test (some weight) – I think statistics mean more for a WR than a lot more of the positions. WRs aren’t as impactful as say o-line and QB, and inversely they probably aren’t to blame for wins and losses. So, I did yard at receptions, yards, and TDs as the metric. Nonetheless, though, I've had the benefit of seeing a good number of these guys and felt confident that I could judge on the eye test as well. 

3.       Longevity (some weight) – it matters. Guys like Fitzgerald, Brown, Carter, and Bruce did it really for a long time.  But were they as talented and as good of an option as Moss or Owens in a single game or season? Probably not, but this somehow must be weighed out.

4.       Entertaining and inspirational play (less weight) – Generally to be used as a tiebreaker, I am going to give slight consideration to just how ####### awesome the guy was to watch.

5.       Like with QBs, I did consult with FBG’s own Chase Stuart who did a deep dive and an advanced analysis back in 2013. Yes, that was seven years ago, but that really only impacts Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson. And they’re the heyday of my football watching so I feel like I have a nice handle on them.  Here’s his methodology: http://www.footballperspective.com/the-greatest-wide-receivers-ever-version-2-0-part-i-methodology/

Very surprising omissions: Andre Johnson (dominance + stats combination) and Steve Smith (stats + eye test/competitiveness). Both were in Stuart’s top ten. Both were in my top 15.  Andre Reed was on a heck of a lot of internet lists. I agree with him not being drafted but was surprised that he wasn’t. Finally, both Raymond Berry and Elroy Hirsch made the top ten WRS for the NFL 100 team and weren’t drafted.

Somewhat surprising omissions: Jimmy Smith, Bob Hayes, James Lofton, Torry Holt (surprisingly great numbers), Reggie Wayne, Lynn Swann, Stallworth, Herman Moore, Rod Smith, and Hines Ward (his numbers are better than you think in addition to him being an all-around badass). Man, there have been a lot of really good receivers.

Note: my pick was Cris Carter. I took him 11th and that’s right around where I have him.  

Tier One (best there ever will be):

1.      (16 pts)  Jerry Rice – could easily have been the first overall pick in this entire draft (I think he was fifth?). Going to keep it short because he’s far and away the leader in stats and has the championships to back it up. I can’t see there ever being a better WR.

Tier Two (legend and innovator):

2.      (15 pts) Don Hutson – Giving him his own tier because I don’t think people realize just how good he was (I know I didn’t until this draft). He played in an era where teams just didn’t pass much and, if you take that into account, he blows away his peers. He’s a clear second in Stuart’s rankings. He was the first and only receiver inducted into the inaugural HOF class. He deserves this ranking.

Tier Three (These guys all were sooooo good – and, admittedly, they could be in any order here)

3.       (14 points) Randy Moss – Eye-test wise he’s the best and most dangerous receivers I’ve ever seen.  Given that I am a huge Vikings fan and was 15 when he was drafted, he gave me some incredible experiences. His stats are nearly identical to Owens and, frankly, I think he sort of checked out his last year in Minnesota and when he was in Oakland. Should this be held against him or for him in analyzing in terms of “greatness”? While I get the flip-side argument, I’m rolling with the latter and ranking Moss top of this tier because, for one game, he’s my choice over anybody but Rice to be great in a given moment.

4.      (13 pts) Terrell Owens – His stats, compared to Moss’s are crazy close. Yards are near the same. Moss has a slight edge in TDS, and Owens has 5 first-team all-pros to Moss’s 4. TO looks like he was sculpted by the deity of your choosing to come to Earth and play football. I still vividly remember his 20 catch game (Rice’s last game – TO was on my fantasy team!) and that catch he made against Dallas in the playoffs. He was really good for a really long well and, even with the off the field antics, he should be remembered as one of the greatest to play behind Rice.

5.      (12 pts) Marvin Harrison – Best pure route runner I’ve ever seen next to Rice. Not built like Moss or Owens, and had the benefit of Peyton Manning throwing to him for 83% of his receptions, Harrison was more consistent and put up similar aggregate stats. And, unlike Moss or Owens, you never really heard from him unless you happened to be messing around his nightclub (and then you heard from his gun). I rank him third in this tier for three reasons: 1) I’m choosing the other two if I needed one play, one game, or one season; 2) Manning did make Harrison better than he probably was; and 3) Harrison ranked last in first-team all-pro seasons with 3.  I’d have no problem with anybody ranking him three, though (Stuart did), and, frankly, if I could tie points for this tier I would. 

Tier Four (Greats before my time):

6.      (11 pts)  Lance Alworth – The best WR of the AFL, he holds about every record for the league. Stuart also ranks him sixth. He’s a member of the NFL 100 top ten team. Obviously, he played in an era where passing wasn’t as prevalent, but his number nearly shake out to the tier three guys. Not bad for a guy named “Bambi.”

7.       (10 pts) Steve Largent – When he retired he held the record for receptions, receiving yards, and touchdowns. He was the first player to 100 TDs and set a consecutive game with a catch streak at 177. Oddly, he only won one all-pro but he was about as steady as it got in the 70s and 80s.

Tier Five (if only)

8.       (9 pts) Larry Fitzgerald – If only he had an even slightly above-average QB throwing him the ball. Larry is an interesting opportunity to rank because I have actually had direct interactions with him. But, focusing solely on the field, he’s done it well for a long time. I personally witnessed this during the 2011 and 2012 seasons where I attended the majority of the Cardinals home games. Despite such things as a Max Hall, a Ryan Lindley (note: actually a very cool dude – I’ve played golf with him), a John Skelton, and the well-knowns Brian Hoyer and Derek Anderson throwing him the ball during those games and the team being overall pretty bad, it was quite clear being there that Fitzgerald was the best player on the field (seriously underrated blocker). Other “notables” throughout his career are Brian St. Pierre, Rich Bartel, Kevin Kolb, Shaun King, Tim Rattay, Josh Rosen, John Navarre, and the underachieving Sam Bradford, Mike Glennon, and Blaine Gabbert. Kurt Warner was great (and Fitz’s numbers reflected such). Leinart wasn’t terrible but he wasn’t good. Kyler looks great, but Fitzgerald is getting him at the tail end of his career. Nonetheless, going into his 17th season, Fitz powers through and continues to produce at a high level. He’ll retire soon ranking second in receptions and receiving yards to Rice. Oddly, he’s only got one all-pro season, but I don’t think anybody on this list has done better with less around him than Fitz.

9.       (8 pts) Calvin Johnson – If only he played longer. Playing less than a decade, Megatron racked up several incredibly high-quality seasons (including 3 APs), passes every eye-test for a receiver (right up there with Owens and Moss in terms of pure talent and ability), and had 6 seasons being in the top ten of the league in the majority of the statistical categories. He was clearly on pace to pass up some of the guys ahead of him on the list. But, pace is not the same as actual longevity. I can’t justify him any higher even though if I’m starting a team and told to pick four WRs he’s likely one of those four. His overall talent gets him ahead of this next tier.

Tier Six (The Reliables)

10.   (7 pts) Cris Carter – All he does is… pretty much everything. Hands. Sidelines. Touchdowns. Yards. Receptions. Talk smack. If I had to teach a kid how to play, he’s my WR. Twice all-pro, years of solid play, I have him the top of the tier although an argument could be made for the next two guys. But he’s my favorite player ever so…

11.   (6 pts) Michael Irvin – Irvin ranks 7th ever in Stuart’s rankings (best in the tier) and he was certainly a winner. However, he only had one AP and five pro-bowls – which is somewhat low for this list. Also played less seasons than several ahead of him, too. And, he is surprisingly ranked relatively low on some lists with the allegation that he was “lucky” to play in one of the best offenses the league has seen.

12.   (5 pts) Tim Brown – Never an AP, Brown nonetheless made nine pro-bowls and finished top ten all-time in all the major receiving categories (receptions, yards, and TDs). Longevity and reliability were definitely his strongest attributes and he played at a high, reliable level for a long time. He was also a quality returner. Stuart ranks him 11th. I think 12th is about right.

Tier Seven (Really good, but maybe not great)

13.   (4 pts) Paul Warfield – NFL 100 has him in their top ten, which makes him top of this tier.  Stuart has him 16th. At first glance, his numbers are very underwhelming (except his average yards per catch which was greater than 20), but when you factor in that he played in super run-heavy offenses and factor in opportunity he stacks up to some of the best. Plus, per Tanier, he’s apparently a favorite of the football purists: “Criticizing Warfield in any way is about the worst thing a football historian can ever do. I once compared a more contemporary receiver – it may have been Michael Irvin -- on a message board devoted to pro football history, and was promptly pummeled into submission with a barrage of pish-poshes. No one can ever be compared to Paul Warfield. It should be noted that this particular site was the stomping ground for some spectacularly anti-stat thinkers, so Warfield was a patron saint to them: the receiver too amazing to do anything banal like catch passes.”  Hopefully, all you purists on here don’t come too hard after me but 13th seems reasonable for a guy whose numbers don’t overwhelm. He’s also probably the only guy in this tier that I’d have taken over my very surprising omissions (Andre Johnson, Hirsch, Steve Smith, and Raymond Berry).

14.   (3 pts) Don Maynard – I admit I struggled with Maynard. His numbers, like Warfield, underwhelm for a judge like me who didn’t even know who this guy was until my mid-20s as he played so long ago. His best days were in the AFL and he didn’t really make any all-time lists. However, everything I read about him suggests he was possibly the best WR of his era and he was a stalwart for the Jets in his years there. I had him ranked anywhere between 12 and 16.

15.   (2 pts) Isaac Bruce – He ranks fifth in all-time receiving yards and he was certainly quite good for a long time. Stuart actually has him two notches ahead of Maynard. Oddly though, Bruce has no AP teams and only four pro-bowls despite having very, very good seasons in 1995 and 1999. He was instrumental in a Super Bowl win.

16.   (1 pt) Art Monk – He does have an all-pro season but only made three pro-bowls and his stats at retirement were pretty quickly surpassed. Stuart ranks him the lowest (36) (Maynard was second to last at 28) of the receivers selected. I would note that something like 2/3 of his catches went for first-downs, and he undoubtedly made some big plays for the Redskins during his time and he won three Super Bowls, but his overall statistics just don’t match up to the other guys drafted and he played during a time where his opportunities weren’t as stunted as some of the guys ranked ahead of him who played in eras where passing wasn’t much of a thing. I tossed around ranking him 15th since he has an AP to Bruce’s zero, but I’ve seen film and games of both guys and Bruce just seemed a touch better and Bruce’s stats grade out better as well.

 
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Standings after Zow's rankings of NFL WR's-


 

1 --tuffnutt--190

2 --Ilov80s--187

3 --AAABatteries--183

4 --otb_lifer--182

5 --Gally--174

6 --Zow--169

7 --Jagov--168

8 --Getzlaf15--165

9 --higgins--157

10 -timschochet--152

11 -DougB--152

12 -joffer--149

13 -jwb--144

14 -Long Ball Larry--144

15 -wikkidpissah--137

16 -Kal El--133

 
Sorry I haven’t been around here much, been preoccupied. The judges are doing a great job except for all the low scores I’m getting. That’s fake news. 
if there are any categories left over at the end to judge I’ll do it. You guys don’t want that. 

 
I'll be wading thru dismounts, dive rolls, front tucks and saltos the next few days with the gymnastic gals. After that I can pick up another category if needed.

 
timschochet said:
Sorry I haven’t been around here much, been preoccupied. The judges are doing a great job except for all the low scores I’m getting. That’s fake news. 
if there are any categories left over at the end to judge I’ll do it. You guys don’t want that. 
Click to expand...
:lmao:  Sorry, Tim. It's not intentional and I promise I'm not looking at drafters when doing my rankings (and I only snuck a peak at where WRs were drafted after I ranked them). 

 
Number of players by score for my roster (I have had no 15, 13, 4, 3, or 1 pt getters):

16 pts - 1 (Phil Jackson, Rd 2)

14 - 1 (Pacquiao, 23)

12 - 1 (Shaq O'Neal, 7)

11 - 4 (BJ King 23, Durant 26, Citation 38, 1907 Cubs 54) - great values here

10 - 1 (Merlin Olsen, 21)

9 - 4 (Caulkins 15, Ott 34, Niedermeyer 47, Radcliffe 49)

8 - 2 (Calvin Johnson 27, Glover 45)

7 - 1 (James Harden 59)

6 - 2 (Baugh 41, Boeheim 42)

5 - 1 (Art Shell, 53)

2 - 1 (Roy "I was robbed" Emerson, 52)

Hopefully my early picks hit as expected.  I was really only disappointed in Calvin Johnson as I thought his ability (and class) should have put him ahead of a few and made him around 5 or 6.  He got dinged for longevity but still played 9 years at an elite level.  It's picking nits but I think his athleticism and ability is top 5 all time.  I understand the longevity factor but was hoping it wouldn't hurt too much.

 
Gally said:
Hopefully my early picks hit as expected.  I was really only disappointed in Calvin Johnson as I thought his ability (and class) should have put him ahead of a few and made him around 5 or 6.  He got dinged for longevity but still played 9 years at an elite level.  It's picking nits but I think his athleticism and ability is top 5 all time.  I understand the longevity factor but was hoping it wouldn't hurt too much.
Click to expand...
:violin:

 
Gally said:
Number of players by score for my roster (I have had no 15, 13, 4, 3, or 1 pt getters):

16 pts - 1 (Phil Jackson, Rd 2)

14 - 1 (Pacquiao, 23)

12 - 1 (Shaq O'Neal, 7)

11 - 4 (BJ King 23, Durant 26, Citation 38, 1907 Cubs 54) - great values here

10 - 1 (Merlin Olsen, 21)

9 - 4 (Caulkins 15, Ott 34, Niedermeyer 47, Radcliffe 49)

8 - 2 (Calvin Johnson 27, Glover 45)

7 - 1 (James Harden 59)

6 - 2 (Baugh 41, Boeheim 42)

5 - 1 (Art Shell, 53)

2 - 1 (Roy "I was robbed" Emerson, 52)

Hopefully my early picks hit as expected.  I was really only disappointed in Calvin Johnson as I thought his ability (and class) should have put him ahead of a few and made him around 5 or 6.  He got dinged for longevity but still played 9 years at an elite level.  It's picking nits but I think his athleticism and ability is top 5 all time.  I understand the longevity factor but was hoping it wouldn't hurt too much.
Click to expand...
I believe the judge said he was top 4 in ability and would take him on his roster of 4 wideouts. ;)  

But, yeah, when I was weighing him out it really was the longevity factor that kept him down. It also probably kept him out of the top ten WRs for the NFL top 100. I even read an article which made the case for him being top ten ever (which is why I don't think I was harsh at all ranking him at nine) but the article itself was based on what he was projected to have accomplished if he played longer. I just couldn't put him ahead of guys like Fitz or Harrison (and especially Moss and Owens - probably Calvin's pure talent comparison) when they did it just as good but for longer and, in Fitz's case, with really much weaker QB play. I suppose I could see an argument for flip-flopping tiers 4 and 5 but I rewarded the guys who played in a more difficult era to put up big stats (and those guys still did put up the big stats). 

 
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Zow said:
I believe the judge said he was top 4 in ability and would take him on his roster of 4 wideouts. ;)  

But, yeah, when I was weighing him out it really was the longevity factor that kept him down. It also probably kept him out of the top ten WRs for the NFL top 100. I even read an article which made the case for him being top ten ever (which is why I don't think I was harsh at all ranking him at nine) but the article itself was based on what he was projected to have accomplished if he played longer. I just couldn't put him ahead of guys like Fitz or Harrison (and especially Moss and Owens - probably Calvin's pure talent comparison) when they did it just as good but for longer and, in Fitz's case, with really much weaker QB play. I suppose I could see an argument for flip-flopping tiers 4 and 5 but I rewarded the guys who played in a more difficult era to put up big stats (and those guys still did put up the big stats). 
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This is where I would have done different.  I just think Fitz and Calvin are better WR's (eye test) than the older guys.  Just more physically gifted while still being quality people.    Which shows where I took him.  I took him with Largent and Alworth still available.  I thought about both those guys but for me Calvin was better.  Overall great job in a difficult category as they are all real close.  It just came down to personal preference......but you were wrong (hahahah)

 
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I am getting hammered on middle round selections.

  • 4 pts - Maldini, Pollack
  • 2 pts - Red Rum, Fetisov & Allen
The others are sort of where I thought they'd be. Only real pleasant surprise is the 39 Yanks with 15 pts.

 
Ordering the CBB teams is giving me nightmares. It's worse than the coaches, who at least had careers to judge. I cannot find a way to rank the teams that isn't full of contradictions. I've just about resigned myself to pissing 15 drafters off, since that's gonna happen anyway.

 
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