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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (1 Viewer)

Uruk-Hai said:
Ordering the CBB teams is giving me nightmares. It's worse than the coaches, who at least had careers to judge. I cannot find a way to rank the teams that isn't full of contradictions. I've just about resigned myself to pissing 15 drafters off, since that's gonna happen anyway.
I suggest doing it by the way that the best NFL teams should be ranked - just keep it simple and go by best record. 

 
Category 55.

Greatest Women’s Golfer

Honorable Mention:

Inbee Park has a career Grand Slam, 7 Majors, youngest US Open winner, Olympic Gold Medal, #1 on four occasions, 2x Player of the Year, 2x Vare Trophy, 3x most wins, 2x leading money winner, youngest to qualify for the HoF, one of four players with 3 Majors won in single season, one of three players to win the same major 3 straight years.

Laura Davies is the all-time leader on the LET with 45 wins, 7-time Order of Merit leader, 87 wins worldwide, 20 on LPGA, 4 Majors, 1x LPGA leading money winner, 1x Player of the Year, all-time leader in points won in the Solheim Cup, only woman to play an event in the European Men’s Tour, loves gambling & whiskey, former bookie, owns race horses.

Babe Didrikson Zaharias 10 Majors, 41 wins. Babe isn't just one of the greatest golfers of all time, but one of the greatest athletes of all time. Zaharias had her greatest year in 1950 when she completed the Grand Slam of the three women's majors of the day: the U.S. Open, the Titleholders Championship, and the Women's Western Open, a feat that made her the leader on the money list that year. Also that year, she reached 10 wins faster than any other LPGA golfer, doing so in one year and 20 days, a record that still stands. Chosen as all around athlete but maybe belonged here.

:shrug:
 

Babe is Top 3, Laura is a slam dunk Top Ten, Inbee is harder to place but definitely would have received a few points. NBD either way.

Unlike the men’s golfer category or both tennis rankings, I decided to go with a weighted points system for this rankings only. I’m generally not a big fan of going strictly by the numbers because it doesn’t take into account generational shifts, depth of field, intangible factors like impact, et al. That said, with a few notable exceptions I was happy with the results achieved “by the book.”

My arbitrary and capricious points system:

10 points - Career Grand Slam    
7 points - Major Titles   
4 points - Major Award PotY / Vare   
3 points - leading money winner   
2 points - most wins / RotY    
1 points - per win

Let’s see how that works out. I reserve the right as final arbiter to overrule the results where I feel it’s appropriate.

Tier 5

She’s going to need some birdies down the stretch to pull this one out.”

16. (1 points) Amy Alcott 72 points

5 Majors   
1x Vare Trophy
Rookie of the Year       
1x most wins    
29 Wins

Solid player, won in her 3rd event, RotY, won 4 or more events 3 times, initiated the leap into Poppy’s Pond at the Nabisco Dinah Shore major (now ANA Inspiration.)

1988 Dinah Shore

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15. (2 points) Patty Sheehan 85 points

6 Majors         
1x Player of the Year      
Rookie of the Year
2x most wins   
35 Wins

1981 RotY, strong player in the 80s, won 4x twice, Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year (1 of 8 that year - sportsmanship-humanitarian thingy.) Won most of her majors in the next decade. Once blew an 11-shot lead in the US Open. Won 4 majors after that, gotta love the resilience. Good Solheim Cup player. One of the first LPGA players to come out.

Sheehan beats Inkster 1992 US Open @ Oakmont

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14. (3 point) Se Ri Pak 68 points

5 Majors    
1x Vare Trophy 
Rookie of the Year   
1x most wins    
39 wins / 25 LPGA wins 14 KLPGA wins

Well HELLO exhibit A on why rankings systems suck.

:lol:

When Pak Se-Ri won two majors as a 20 year old rookie, there was one (1) South Korean golfer on the LPGA Tour. When she finished her 10th season (min. required) and they inducted her in the Hall of Fame, there 45 ROK players with an LPGA tour card. Approximately 45 of those players would call Pak their inspirational hero. Korean golfers who followed Pak won Rookie of the Year 12 times, were leading money winner 5 times, won Player of the Year 4 times. 15 different Korean players have won 26 majors since Se-Ri blazed the trail.

She won wire-to-wire to win the LPGA Championship in May and a month later she was the youngest ever winner at the US Open. At 92 holes - 18 hole playoff + 2 sudden death - it was the longest women’s tournament ever. Four days afterwards she shot a 61 at the Jamie Farr Classic in Toledo.

Se-Ri had five years with 3 or more wins, finishing 2nd on the money list 4 times. 19 years on Tour, Top 16 nine times. She was the youngest player to enter the Hall of Fame. She finished 10th in a men’s PGA event in South Korea. In 2006 Golf World wrote “she changed the game even more than Tiger Woods.” That is a bit of hyperbole, but it’s definitely true for the LPGA. The Tour would never be the same.

She is adored throughout east Asian and of course most especially in her homeland.

JUDGE’S DISCRETION: I’m giving her half credit for her KLPGA wins and another 10 points for being the OG Seoul Sister. That gives her 85 points and T15. She’s cuter than Sheehan so that’s my tiebreaker. Deal with it. TBH she should get 50 points for being the best thing that ever happened to the LPGA.

1998 US Open - Jenny JENNY! & Pak hitting it out of the water hazard
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13. (4 points) Lorena Ochoa 92 points

2 Majors    
4x Player of the Year   
4x Vare Trophy        
3x leading money winner        
Rookie of the Year    
4x most wins     
27 Wins

Very consistent player, clearly the best player on tour her last 3 years, held #1 158 consecutive weeks (all-time record.) Took over the reigns from Annika. Retired at 28 to start a family. Hosts her own LPGA event in Mexico.

She didn’t have the assassins mentality of a lot of the players drafted. She frittered away a few majors and flat out choked on the 72nd tee of the 2005 US Open. But despite the holes in her resume there is no denying she was the one to beat for a few years. What Se-Ri is to South Korea and Asia, she is to Mexico and Latin America.

Ochoa first major 2008 @ St Andrews Old Course
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12. (5 points) Juli Inkster 94 points

Career Grand Slam    
7 Majorshttps://youtu.be/vH5qJNl8qDMRookie of the Year
1x most wins   
31 Wins  

She was so tough when the pressure was on - one of my favorite competitors. 9-time Solheim Cup participant, all-time USA leader in points, and has captained the last 3 teams. Never led the tour in money but won a tournament 16 out of 24 years. Her 7 Majors is T7 and in wins she is T16.

2002 US Open Prairie Dunes

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Tier 4

You’ll never know how good of a shot that was.”

11. (6 points) JoAnne Carner 106 points

2 Majors     
3x Player of the Year        
5x Vare Trophy
Rookie of the Year
3x leading money winner    
3x most wins    
43 Wins

”Big Momma” had more fun than most. Drove from tournament to tournament in an Airstream trailer with her lifelong husband. Loved by everyone, players & fans.

She dominated Amateur golf 1956-68, winning the US Amateur 5 times. She is the only woman to have won the US Girls’ Junior, the US Women’s Amateur, and the US Women’s Open titles, and was the first person ever to win three different USGA championship events. She won an LPGA event as an amateur in 1969, the last to do so for 43 years.

Turned pro at age 30 and the next year was RotY. In her second year she won the first of two US Opens. She just never seemed to stop winning. She was the second player to top $1M and stayed competitive through the early 90s.

1976 US Open

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10. (7 points) Betsy King 109 Points

6 Majors    
3x Player of the Year    
2x Vare Trophy   
3x leading money winner   
2x most wins  
34 Wins

The 1976 Furman University golf team had four future LPGA players, including two Hall of Famers (King and Beth Daniel.) Took her 7 years to win on Tour but had a great career, winning 10 years in a row. Kept winning through age 45.

Don’t have a lot of memories of her. Think she was one of those stoic, emotionless players. Couldn’t be certain without looking it up. I remember she hosted her own event for awhile, I remember her being an early stalwart on Solheim Cup teams. Just nothing sticks out.  Great player, no doubt.

Couldn't find a good video.

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9. (8 points) Pat Bradley 111 points

Career Grand Slam
6 Majors   
2x Player of the Year
2x Vare Trophy
2x leading money winner   
3x most wins

Won her first tournament in 1976 and he last in 1995. Won majors in 1980, 1981 & 1985, then her amazing 1986 when she won three; finished T5 three shots back at the US Open in her bid for a Grand Slam.

Nails - now that’s how you win a US Open.

________________________________        
 

8. (9 points) Karrie Webb 133 points

Super Career Grand Slam (5 different Majors) 
7 Majors   
2x Player of the Year    
2x Vare Trophy
Rookie of the Year
3x leading money winner   
3x most wins    
 41 Wins

For some reason she always reminded me of David Duval. Great player but not Sörenstam great, not much emotion. But she was phenomenal. Had a 3-year slump about the time Duval fell off the earth but came back to have a very good career.

It’s in the hole

________________________________

Tier 3

“In a class by herself”

7. (10 points) Nancy Lopez 108 points

3 Majors     
3x Player of the Year   
2x Vare Trophy
3x leading money winner      
Rookie of the Year
4x most wins    
48 Wins

You just...you just had to be there. I can tell you what it was like watching Secretariat win the Triple Crown in 1973 or seeing Mark “The Bird” Fidrych  talk to a baseball, but honestly, you just had to be there. In 1978 Nancy Lopez created a mania the LPGA hadn’t seen since the days of Babe Didrikson Zaharias. She won five (5!) tournaments in a row and the whole country fell in love with her. It cast a spotlight on a perennially fledgling tour and absolutely transformed professional golf.

Utterly charming, she became America’s sweetheart, everyone - EVERYONE - wanted to know more about her story. She was on the cover of Sports Illustrated and swept every imaginable LPGA and Female Athlete of the Year award. The next year she won 8 tournaments, and kept winning multiple events for 5 years after that. Even pregnancy & birthing a child didn’t slow her down other than causing her to miss two half seasons.

She won 5 times her first full year back, had another child, then posted three more multiple win seasons. After her third child she cut back on her schedule.

There were disappointments. She never won the US Open, runner up four times. She finished second at the du Maurier Classic in Canada (then a major), and won the Colgate-Dinah Shore two years before it became a major. It’s fine. She is the Queen of the LPGA. We were so lucky to have her.

JUDGE’S DISCRETION: I’m sorry, but Nancy Lopez doesn’t come in 10th place in anyone’s list of greatest women’s golfers. She is as loved as Arnold Palmer and probably more important to her Tour than any player in history. She got the country excited about the ladies game more than anyone before her and few since. The LPGA is what it is because of her. 25 points just for being awesome. 133 points ties her with Webb and in no world is she less important than Australia’s greatest champion. Tie goes to the little girl from New Mexico who brought the LPGA into big time sports.

Nancy Lopez swing - unorthodox but great tempo & repeatable 

_______________________________     

Tier 2

“Great Champion, beloved Founder, true legend”

NOTE:    
no Player of the Year Award 1950-65    
no Rookie of the Year 1950-61    
no Vare Trophy 1950-52 

The pioneers & Founders are special. There were no other women’s professional sports to model their organization after. They had no staff, did everything themselves. Setting up the course, drawing the pairings, negotiating with sponsors, putting on fan clinics, runnning the pro ams. Career women were a rarity and they were blazing their own way.

_______________________________    
 

6. (11 points) Betsy Rawls 126 points

8 Majors     
2x leading money winner      
3x most wins    
55 Wins

Rawls turned professional in 1951 and joined the LPGA Tour (the Tour’s second season.) She won her first tournament that year at the Sacramento Women's Invitational Open. In 1959, she earned the LPGA Vare Trophy for lowest scoring average. She was the tour's leading money winner in 1952 and 1959 and finished in the top ten on the money list a total of nine times. She led the tour in wins three times, 1952 with eight, 1957 with five (tied with Patty Berg), and 1959 with ten.

Rawls was the LPGA's president from 1961 to 1962. In 1967, when the LPGA Tour Hall of Fame was created, she was one of the six inaugural inductees.

JUDGE’S DISCRETION: There was no Player of the Year award when she was playing. She was the best player on tour at least 2-3 times, so I’m giving her credit for two imaginary awards & placing her just above Webb (& Lopez.) Sorry not sorry.

newsreel - 1960 US Open

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5. (12 points) Louise Suggs 165 points

Career Grand Slam    
11 Majors   
1x Vare Trophy 
3x leading money winner   
1x most wins     
61 Wins

One of the thirteen founders. Suggs already had 5 Majors (not counting her US Amateur and British Anateur wins) and was only a year away from making the Hall of Fame when she helped found the LPGA Tour in 1950. She was a consistent force, winning majors throughout the 50s  Her last LPGA win came in 1962.

Remembering Louise Suggs

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4. (13 points) Patty Berg 190 points

15 Majors     
3x Vare Trophy      
3x leading money winner   
2x most wins     
60 Wins

As a youth in Minneapolis she played quarterback on a football team that included legendary OU Head Coach Bud Wilkinson. She won 29 Amateur titles in the 1930s including the US Amateur. She won 7 more Majors in the 1940s. In 1950, along with Babe Didrikson Zaharias and Suggs, she founded the LPGA, and won another 7 majors in the 1950s. She posted 7 top ten finishes in the Majors in the 1960s when she was in her 40s. She was a fixture in the Chicagoland golf community for nearly 70 years (Cog Hill Drudsdread, St Andrews Golf & County Club.) Great sense of humor & gifted public speaker.

Patti Berg - the woman who revolutionized women’s golf

________________________________
 

Tier 1

“Better than most.”

3. (14 points) Kathy Whitworth 208 points

6 Majors
7x Player of the Year        
3x Vare Trophy      
8x leading money winner    
7x most wins    
88 Wins

Before my time. Won a lot. Not as good a record in the majors as you might expect. Painfully shy.

Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf at Royal Bangkok

Sandra Haynie v Carol Mann v Kathy Whitworth

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2. (15 points) Mickey Wright 227 points

13 Majors   
Career Grand Slam   
5x Vare Trophy
4x leading money winner    
6x most wins    
82 wins

Before my time. Won a lot. Very good in the majors, better than you might expect.

Mickey Wright on Shell’s WWoG playing some French Amateur nobody knows

________________________________       
 

Its weird I don’t know more about Whitworth & Wright. I know lots about golf history and golf architecture and most of the LPGA founders. But the top two winners, not so much. Anyway four dollars a pound.

________________________________

1. (16 points) Annika Sörenstam 252 points

Slam dunk choice for #1. Ticks ALL the boxes. NCAA champ, RotY LET ‘93, RotY LPGA ‘94, 8x Player of the Year, 8x leading Money Leader, 8x most wins, 6x Vare Trophy, shot a 59, stellar Solheim Cup record in 8x appearances, 98 wins worldwide, 72 LPGA, 10 Majors, 16-6 Playoff record including 2-0 in Majors. Retired at 38 to start a family.

Career Grand Slam. One of five women who have played a PGA Tour event (the only one drafted for this category.) Nice person, not afraid to voice her opinion but unfailingly gracious.

Ms 59 career highlights

________________________________

1. (16 points) Annika Sorenstam

2. (15 points) Mickey Wright

3 (14 points) Kathy Whitworth

4. (13 points) Patty Berg

5. (12 points) Louise Suggs

6. (11 points) Betsy Rawls

7. (10 points) Nancy Lopez

8. (9 points) Karrie Webb

9. (8 points) Pat Bradley

10. (7 points) Betsy King

11. (6 points) JoAnne Carner

12. (5 points) Juli Inkster

13. (4 points) Lorena Ocho

14. (3 points) Se Ri Pak

15. (2 points) Patty Sheehan

16. (1 point) Amy Alcott

 
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Category 55.

Greatest Women’s Golfer

Babe Didrikson Zaharias 10 Majors, 41 wins. Babe isn't just one of the greatest golfers of all time, but one of the greatest athletes of all time. Zaharias had her greatest year in 1950 when she completed the Grand Slam of the three women's majors of the day: the U.S. Open, the Titleholders Championship, and the Women's Western Open, a feat that made her the leader on the money list that year. Also that year, she reached 10 wins faster than any other LPGA golfer, doing so in one year and 20 days, a record that still stands. Chosen as all around athlete but maybe belonged here.

:shrug:
 

Babe is Top 3, Laura is a slam dunk Top Ten, Inbee is harder to place but definitely would have received a few points. NBD either way.
Babe was already used as Best Athlete so became ineligible for the Women's golf category.  The drafter may have screwed up in regards to max points as I doubt Babe will finished 3rd in the greatest athlete category.

 
Michelle Wei pre-baby belly - #1 (1,000,000 Points)
I, um, was rather close to her once while she was putting. She bends over to a complete 90 degree angle. Craziest thing I've ever seen in terms of golf setups. 

 
Babe was already used as Best Athlete so became ineligible for the Women's golf category.  The drafter may have screwed up in regards to max points as I doubt Babe will finished 3rd in the greatest athlete category.
I'm the judge of the greatest all-around athlete category and I haven't started rankings, but she'll be fine. 

 
I'm the judge of the greatest all-around athlete category and I haven't started rankings, but she'll be fine. 
I am sure she will but I wouldn't think she would be 3rd.....top 10 is likely.  Top 5 would be tougher.

 
Hmmm ... aside from Sorenstam, it seemed that there was something of an anti-recency bias for women's golfing judging. Not bad or good, just interesting.

I was kicking around Laurie Davies for a bit before deciding on Webb. I thought majors were going to be a bigger deal in the judging than they ended up being.

 
I will be judging the heavyweights the same way I rated the non-HWs except I have removed the category for achievements at multiple weight classes. 

 
Srandings after BobbyLayne's rankings of Women Golfers

1/3 (20) of the cats have now been judged.

 

1 --tuffnutt--195

2 --AAABatteries--194

3 --Ilov80s--191

4 --Gally--186

5 --otb_lifer--185

6 --Zow--185

7 --Jagov--181

8 --Getzlaf15--171

9 --higgins--164

10 -DougB--159

11 -jwb--159

12 -Long Ball Larry--158

13 -joffer--157

14 -timschochet--154

15 -wikkidpissah--147

16 -Kal El--134

 
Hmmm ... aside from Sorenstam, it seemed that there was something of an anti-recency bias for women's golfing judging. Not bad or good, just interesting.

I was kicking around Laurie Davies for a bit before deciding on Webb. I thought majors were going to be a bigger deal in the judging than they ended up being.
That was my intent, Doug. Majors are the most important thing in determining legacy.

The Top 6 in LPGA Majors (ranking) Years Span

1. (#4) 1937-1958
2. (#2) 1958-1966
3. (#5) 1946-1959
4. (#1) 1995-2006  
4. (N/A) 1940-1954
6. (#6) 1951-1969

Everyone in the top 6 was ranked in the top 6 except for BDZ who is in another category.

The only other player in the Top 6 rankings is the all time leader (men or women) in events won.

:shrug:

 
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are you sure?  I'm showing 18.

MENS SPORTS - Greatest horse

WOMENS SPORTS - Greatest Track & Field Athlete

WOMENS SPORTS - Greatest tennis player

NHL - Greatest defensive player (non goalie)

NCAAB - Greatest coach

WOMENS SPORTS - Greatest golfer

NFL - Greatest Quarterback

MENS SPORTS - Greatest tennis player

MLB - Greatest baseball team

WOMENS SPORTS - Greatest swimmer

NBA - Greatest guard1

NFL - Greatest defensive lineman

NFL - Greatest offensive lineman

NFL - Greatest wide receiver

MENS SPORTS - Greatest non heavyweight boxer

NBA - Greatest center

NBA - Greatest forward

MLB - Greatest outfielder
On the drafter tab, you and everyone else has 20 scores.   Not sure what you are looking at.  

 
He’s doing quite a good job with the excel spreadsheet...
Thanks.   I added the columns for the score and the standings at the bottom of the drafters tab.  

Thats about all I know how to do on excel.   The rest is all @hagmania.  Hoping to add another cool feature soon.   Come on Hags!

 
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anyway @Doug B sorry if that came across as defensive.

you are obliquely bringing up a good point, which is that any rigid / statistics based ranking will skew one way or another. it’s convenient because as a judge you can sort of shield yourself from criticism by claiming “well that’s just the way it came out.”

in the case of the LPGA, any system purportedly using accumulated wins & awards is going to skew toward the earlier period. that’s because in the 50s and 60s there were only a handful of ladies capable of dominating seasons/majors.

growth of the game & increased popularity led to more/better athletes being drawn to the game. the internationalization of golf (especially the huge influx of South Korean & Asian golfers) foreshadowed the unparalleled depth of field we’ve seen in this millennium.

different dynamics in play but same same in the NFL, especially the offensive skill position rankings. instead of global growth of the game & depth of field its evolving offensive philosophy & rule changes. not here to debate placements on anyone else’s judging but I really liked Woz’s WR methodology. considered a bunch of different factors (like Warfield’s era & the style offenses he played on.)

if you go straight stats you to judge ranking you miss the bigger picture. for example, Chamberlain and Russell appear to have otherworldly rebound averages. not really, they take down about the same percentage as every great rebounder in any decade. only difference is there were a ton more rebounds to be had - lower FG% + way more fast breaks - and they played 12-15 more minutes every game (45-48 minutes per game instead of 33-36, even less in recent years.)

anyway, just food for thought, have yet to observe a judge who wasn’t being conscientious in this draft. really crushing it! @Doug B and I saw some brutal, vitriolic reactions to questionable/lazy judging back 8-11 years ago at the height of FFA Timmay drafts. not the case at all with this one. 

 
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anyway, just food for thought, have yet to observe a judge who wasn’t being conscientious in this draft. really crushing it! @Doug B and I saw some brutal, vitriolic reactions to questionable/lazy judging back 8-11 years ago at the height of FFA Timmay drafts. not the case at all with this one. 
Roy Emerson has some words for you @BobbyLayne.  They will be chock full of vitriol and brutality.  Roy has a temper these days...

 
anyway @Doug B sorry if that came across as defensive.

you are obliquely bringing up a good point, which is that any rigid / statistics based ranking will skew one way or another. it’s convenient because as a judge you can sort of shield yourself from criticism by claiming “well that’s just the way it came out.”

in the case of the LPGA, any system purportedly using accumulated wins & awards is going to skew toward the earlier period. that’s because in the 50s and 60s there were only a handful of ladies capable of dominating seasons/majors.

growth of the game & increased popularity led to more/better athletes being drawn to the game. the internationalization of golf (especially the huge influx of South Korean & Asian golfers) foreshadowed the unparalleled depth of field we’ve seen in this millennium.

different dynamics in play but same same in the NFL, especially the offensive skill position rankings. instead of global growth of the game & depth of field its evolving offensive philosophy & rule changes. not here to debate placements on anyone else’s judging but I really liked Woz’s WR methodology. considered a bunch of different factors (like Warfield’s era & the style offenses he played on.)

if you go straight stats you to judge ranking you miss the bigger picture. for example, Chamberlain and Russell appear to have otherworldly rebound averages. not really, they take down about the same percentage as every great rebounder in any decade. only difference is there were a ton more rebounds to be had - lower FG% + way more fast breaks - and they played 12-15 more minutes every game (45-48 minutes per game instead of 33-36, even loess in recent years.)

anyway, just food for thought, have yet to observe a judge who wasn’t being conscientious in this draft. really crushing it! @Doug B and I saw some brutal, vitriolic reactions to questionable/lazy judging back 8-11 years ago at the height of FFA Timmay drafts. not the case at all with this one. 
This is my first ever Timmy draft and it has been outstanding all around.  Everyone has been great and the judges have been incredible.  Lots of effort and individuality that gives multiple perspectives.  That's the great part of discussing all time greats.  There are many ways to skin that cat. 

It's been great to take our minds off this difficult time. 

 
anyway @Doug B sorry if that came across as defensive.
All good, GB. Didn't mean to put you on the defensive.

I've been interested to watch how each category leans, temporally. Men's tennis leaned heavily modern (Laver's fourth-place notwithstanding). Ladies golf was a sharp contrast. Like I wrote originally, not good or bad -- read that to mean "not right or wrong, just noticeable and thought-provoking".

 
This is my first ever Timmy draft and it has been outstanding all around.  Everyone has been great and the judges have been incredible.  Lots of effort and individuality that gives multiple perspectives.  That's the great part of discussing all time greats.  There are many ways to skin that cat. 

It's been great to take our minds off this difficult time. 
Only hiccup being that it's apparently sacrilege for a judge to even consider Bill James. 🤣

 
All good, GB. Didn't mean to put you on the defensive.

I've been interested to watch how each category leans, temporally. Men's tennis leaned heavily modern (Laver's fourth-place notwithstanding). Ladies golf was a sharp contrast. Like I wrote originally, not good or bad -- read that to mean "not right or wrong, just noticeable and thought-provoking".
One of the interesting aspects to this draft was not knowing entirely how each judge would judge.  What aspects would be deemed important or not.  You had to figure out how you would rank but then also think about other ways it could be looked at and then decide how you wanted to go after it. 

I wonder how different it would have been if each judge gave a judging criteria statement before we started drafting.  I know I asked a few questions to judges to find out if something like doubles players would be given credit or not.  One of my thoughts was to draft the Bryann Brothers as my selection since they are far and away the best doubles pairings (at least in my minimal tennis knowledge view).  I thought it would be an interesting take but it was shot down very quickly so I went away from that idea.   Unfortunately I didn't do much better anyway....hahah

Just an interesting exercise with lot's to learn. 

 
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One of the interesting aspects to this draft was not knowing entirely how each judge would judge.  What aspects would be deemed important or not.  You had to figure out how you would rank but then also think about other ways it could be looked at and then decide how you wanted to go after it. 

I wonder how different it would have been if each judge gave a judging criteria statement before we started drafting.  I know I asked a few questions to judges to find out if something like doubles players would be given credit or not.  One of my thoughts was to draft the Bryann Brothers as my selection since they are far and away the best doubles pairings (at least in my minimal tennis knowledge view).  I thought it would be an interesting take but it was shot down very quickly so I went away from that idea.   Unfortunately I didn't do much better anyway....hahah

Just an interesting exercise with lot's to learn. 
I will say as the boxing judge that I didn't really consider how I would judge until I started. Of course I had a rough idea but I didn't formalize the process. This led to me actually ranking Manny one spot ahead of Henry Armstrong- even though I took Armstrong while Pac was still available. 

 
One of the interesting aspects to this draft was not knowing entirely how each judge would judge.  What aspects would be deemed important or not.  You had to figure out how you would rank but then also think about other ways it could be looked at and then decide how you wanted to go after it. 

I wonder how different it would have been if each judge gave a judging criteria statement before we started drafting.  I know I asked a few questions to judges to find out if something like doubles players would be given credit or not.  One of my thoughts was to draft the Bryann Brothers as my selection since they are far and away the best doubles pairings (at least in my minimal tennis knowledge view).  I thought it would be an interesting take but it was shot down very quickly so I went away from that idea.   Unfortunately I didn't do much better anyway....hahah

Just an interesting exercise with lot's to learn. 
Impossible to give a criteria before starting.    I don't even know the final criteria I will even use until I've considered all the criteria I can think of.   And then I eliminate or reduce the value on some of them.     I would have never known about the Value sytems the reference.com sites use, which were a decent criteria to add to the mix.  On Def linemen, up front i would have said sacks would be a criteria to find out later that didn't count them for some of the players.

 
NFL COACHES 

the "i couldn't spell T-O-M C-O-U-G-H-L-I-N" tier:

Richard LeBeau - 1 pt.

... or Tony Dungy, for that matter (just two cats of recent vintage i would've ranked a couple slots higher).

look, i dig the whole "thinking outside the box" shtick, and LeBeau was one hell of an innovative coordinator - the zone blitz is a staple, and it was his baby - quite a successful strategy to combat the pass happy bent the '78 rules changes facilitated.  much respect for all he bought to the table in those respects. 

but only named "Coordinator of the Year" once? (did anyone know that #### even existed?) ... final nail is his 12-33 record as a HC.  

the "YEAH, BUT .... "  tier:

Andy Reid  - 2 pts.

best offensive mind of his era? quite posiibly so ... no questioning his innovative and intricate philosophies, which always seem to get the right player in the right space - can dial up a mismatch as easily as inhaling a bucket of Krispy Kremes. 

but the lack of sideline discipline dings him quite a bit ... whether it be bizarre (to put it mildly) clock management, or getting waaayyyyyyy to effin' cute when the foot is on the gas ... or untimely gaffes/penalties by his players - the last is not entirely his fault, but Poppy is a bit sloppy - and it permeates through the roster.

i like the guy, and ya can't help but feel good for the 'chip he finally won (beating an opposing coach who is currently "cuter" in Shanny Jr.), but this coulda been a much richer resumé had he been tighter with the discipline ... could very well shoot up this list as long as he's erect and Ma'Homie stays healthy. 

Bud Grant - 3 pts.

cat was always so wooden and stoic he made Landry look like friggin' Jerry Glanville in comparision ... maybe it was "steely" and "focused" rather than aloofness ... musta been all that time in Canada, eh?

and he coached up a storm in the Great White North, winning FOUR Grey Cups ... so quite the opposite of his NFL 'chip game travails.

but he gets knocked for the 4 SB losses here ... i didn't wanna base rankings solely on those kinda strict W/Ls parameters, but they got blown out in all 4, avg score being 24-9, and i assure you the games were never that close.  

they simply got crushed ... worst were the last two, vs the Dolphins and Raiders - they played like pvssies in both, got tossed around like ragdolls, and blown totally off the field. 

for as great as his teams were in the regular season, he was always negated like a pee wee coach in the big one - Stram is the only one of the 4 opposing coaches not on this list, and the three others (Shula, Noll, Madden) are ranked higher here ... so really no shame in losing those titles to the great dynasties of his era ... but, for feck's sake - at least show up and fight!  

Mike Holmgren - 4 pts.

look at his coaching staff snapshot: Reid, Gruden, Mooch ... (all from the Walsh tree, by proxy, under the Walrus).

remarkable offensive coach, QB guru extraordinaire ...guy gets a ton of credit for his interpretation of the WCO being successful under his terms.  should have TWO SB titles (you all know it), but we play with the hand that's dealt. 

Super Bowl winner with the Pack, then switched teams and took the Seahawks right to the doorstep (see above).  

one knock is never solving the Dallas riddle ... even when Aikman was knocked out on T'giving day, Jason EFFIN' Garret took the 'boys to victory over the Pack ... the team of the 90s, sure, but Holmgren never had an answer for them. 

had the refs not blown that Super Bowl ... oh man. 

John Madden - 5 pts.

highest lifetime winning %, crushed the Vikes in SB XI, and shoulda faced Dallas with a chance to repeat in SB XII (Rob Lytle DID fumble)

... but Al Davis. 

Al was the Raiders - i don't begrudge Madden his prolific record, but ... he was basically co-head coach, Davis ran that team soup to nuts. 

Madden was the perfect fit to take the sideline heat and administer the game plans ... the Raiders of the 70s were just about the most fun the NFL ever will see, and Madden's madcap messiness was as yuuuuge a part of that as Al's Brylcreem or any number of 15 yd unsportsmanlike conduct penalties they'd incur before the coin toss. 

but, much like Holmgren with Dallas (and Grant with the SBs), he (they) could never get out the Stillers shadow, starting with the Immaculate Reception. 

the SB season of '76 saw the Raiders go 13-1, and they did beat Pittsburgh in the AFCCG ... interestingly enough, Noll said that '76 team was the best of his tenure, but ... Franco and Bleier got injured the week prior, and sat out the AFCCG ... advantage Raiders, and, to their great credit, they cashed the chips with authority.

that '76 team was a monster, and Madden won a ton of great games (ending the Dolphins streak, the Ghost to the Post, the Holy Roller), but Al's presence takes away a bit of the luster ... ftr, i believe he was a better coach than announcer ... he became a self parody of his once refreshing shtick, the end was not pretty.  

... hope to get enough time to finish the whole category by this evening ... busy day here. 

 
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Impossible to give a criteria before starting.    I don't even know the final criteria I will even use until I've considered all the criteria I can think of.   And then I eliminate or reduce the value on some of them.     I would have never known about the Value sytems the reference.com sites use, which were a decent criteria to add to the mix.  On Def linemen, up front i would have said sacks would be a criteria to find out later that didn't count them for some of the players.
I  agree it would be near impossible to come up with a good criteria before starting.  I was just trying to point out that I was debating various picks in my own mind while debating how I thought the judge would rank.  This way does add a different spin that wouldn't be there if you knew the criteria.  There is no right or wrong......just a different way. 

Also, without knowing the criteria it led me to try and think outside the box a little bit in some of the lesser known categories.  Without knowing a lot about figure skating or tennis I tried to research some off normal paths to get high rankings.  We will see how it pays off.

 
Impossible to give a criteria before starting. I don't even know the final criteria I will even use until I've considered all the criteria I can think of.   And then I eliminate or reduce the value on some of them. I would have never known about the Value sytems the reference.com sites use, which were a decent criteria to add to the mix. On Def linemen, up front i would have said sacks would be a criteria to find out later that didn't count them for some of the players.
In some past TimDrafts ... he asked judges to post criteria before the drafting began. Most usually complied, with varying levels of specificity. Didn't necessarily make value-ranking any easier for the participants, though.

 
NFL COACHES 

the "i couldn't spell T-O-M C-O-U-G-H-L-I-N" tier:

Richard LeBeau - 1 pt.
Good judging and write ups so far. Well done!

I expected **** to get the 1 point. I wanted him on my squad. Of course he is not the greatest but he is my favorite. Always loved the guy and the way he went about doing his work. Just please tell me he would have ranked higher than Mike "Deer in the Headlights" Tomlin.

 
In some past TimDrafts ... he asked judges to post criteria before the drafting began. Most usually complied, with varying levels of specificity. Didn't necessarily make value-ranking any easier for the participants, though.
I'm glad he didn't do that here.  I would have hurled if I had to consider my rankings based off Zow criteria. 

 

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