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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
hagmania
Footballguy
All judging feedback can be submitted in writing, mailed with a SASE, and I'll be sure to send a more elaborate correspondence.
otb_lifer
Footballguy
sooo ... Bill James is ranking the baseball team category, not Zow.
good to know.
gtfo with that bull####
1/10
good to know.
gtfo with that bull####
horrible.
1/10
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
Yeah for sure. I kicked myself for not getting them. Did research late (I had it as a crapshoot in my original rankings after the top four went) and never knew just how good this team was.
Zow
Footballguy
No. But he was a reference a stated.sooo ... Bill James is ranking the baseball team category, not Zow.
good to know.
gtfo with that bull####
All, I promise from the bottom of my heart I actively did NOT look at who drafted what and where the team was drafted.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Nice job Woz
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Non HW Boxing Results (ties were broken by BoxerRec rating).
16. (1 pt) Carlos De Leon: biggest note of fame was winning the Crusierweight title a bunch of times but that also means he lost the Cruiserweight title a bunch of times. And the Crusierweight division isn't one of the glamour divisions so it's not that notable.
15. (2 pt) Thomas Hearns: tough to do it because as a Detroit native, I love the Motor City Cobra. He was one of the most fan friendly fighters I can remember and his KO of Duran was filthy. However, he failed to win the majority of his biggest fights: lost to Sugar Ray, Hagler and Iran Barkley twice.
14. (3 pt) Tony Canzoneri: One of few old school fighters to have won a world title at 3 weight classes but one of them was light welterweight. Light welterweight wasn't a division with much clout in the 1930s. It wasn't really recognized as a relevant division until maybe 25 years later. His championship years were on the shorter side and he was not overly dominant against the top competition.
13. (4 pt) Benny Leonard: incredible 8 year reign as Lightweight Champion. However he retired at the age of 29 (he made a somewhat successful come back 5 years later but he can never get those prime years back).
12. (5 pt) Oscar De La Hoya: Huge star who helped pump new life into boxing. He traveled up the weight divisions butting heads with greats from 2 different eras. To me, the Golden Boy is the bridge from the Tyson craze to the Floyd and Manny era. He has some big name wins on his resume but I feel like the 2nd half of his career, he got exposed a bit. He might have had some conditioning issues and his peak was shorter than most of the greats here. Plus it is hard to forget how badly he was bludgeoned by the much smaller Pac-man in his final fight.
11. (6 pt) Roberto Duran: Speaking of hard to forget, Duran will forever be connected to "No Mas" when he quit in the middle of his rematch with Sugar Ray. That didn't stop Duran who fought at the top levels of boxing for another 15 years or so. As a matter of fact, Duran has fought in 5 decades. His first fight was in 1968 and his final fight came in 2001. He never regained the killer swagger he had before the "No Mas" moment and ultimately lost most of the biggest fights as he moved up in weight through his career which keeps him out of the top 10. His ability to stay relevant for so long, his epic win in the Brawl at Montreal and his incredible early run at lightweight has him as the best of the group to miss out on the top 10.
I will post the 10-6 tomorrow.
16. (1 pt) Carlos De Leon: biggest note of fame was winning the Crusierweight title a bunch of times but that also means he lost the Cruiserweight title a bunch of times. And the Crusierweight division isn't one of the glamour divisions so it's not that notable.
15. (2 pt) Thomas Hearns: tough to do it because as a Detroit native, I love the Motor City Cobra. He was one of the most fan friendly fighters I can remember and his KO of Duran was filthy. However, he failed to win the majority of his biggest fights: lost to Sugar Ray, Hagler and Iran Barkley twice.
14. (3 pt) Tony Canzoneri: One of few old school fighters to have won a world title at 3 weight classes but one of them was light welterweight. Light welterweight wasn't a division with much clout in the 1930s. It wasn't really recognized as a relevant division until maybe 25 years later. His championship years were on the shorter side and he was not overly dominant against the top competition.
13. (4 pt) Benny Leonard: incredible 8 year reign as Lightweight Champion. However he retired at the age of 29 (he made a somewhat successful come back 5 years later but he can never get those prime years back).
12. (5 pt) Oscar De La Hoya: Huge star who helped pump new life into boxing. He traveled up the weight divisions butting heads with greats from 2 different eras. To me, the Golden Boy is the bridge from the Tyson craze to the Floyd and Manny era. He has some big name wins on his resume but I feel like the 2nd half of his career, he got exposed a bit. He might have had some conditioning issues and his peak was shorter than most of the greats here. Plus it is hard to forget how badly he was bludgeoned by the much smaller Pac-man in his final fight.
11. (6 pt) Roberto Duran: Speaking of hard to forget, Duran will forever be connected to "No Mas" when he quit in the middle of his rematch with Sugar Ray. That didn't stop Duran who fought at the top levels of boxing for another 15 years or so. As a matter of fact, Duran has fought in 5 decades. His first fight was in 1968 and his final fight came in 2001. He never regained the killer swagger he had before the "No Mas" moment and ultimately lost most of the biggest fights as he moved up in weight through his career which keeps him out of the top 10. His ability to stay relevant for so long, his epic win in the Brawl at Montreal and his incredible early run at lightweight has him as the best of the group to miss out on the top 10.
I will post the 10-6 tomorrow.
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timschochet
Footballguy
No objections so far. As a side comment I think both Benny Leonard and Robert Duran are getting poor treatment though.
timschochet
Footballguy
otb_lifer
Footballguy
you see how wikkid and Ramsey and 80s are judging? (and how Layne will, eventually)
knowledge and passion, not some cotdamn reference bible.
i expected better.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
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timschochet
Footballguy
Be the change you want to see.
The more work you spend on it, the more you’ll enjoy it. Who cares what somebody else does?
Zegras11
Footballguy
Standings after Zow's rankings of CAT #1
1 --otb_lifer--29
2 --jwb--29
3 --Long Ball Larry--23
4 --Gally--22
5 --DougB--18
6 --timschochet--17
7 --Jagov--17
8 --higgins--16
9 --wikkidpissah--15
10 -Kal El--14
11 -Getzlaf15--14
12 -tuffnutt--13
13 -Zow--12
14 -Ilov80s--11
15 -joffer--11
16 -AAABatteries--11
1 --otb_lifer--29
2 --jwb--29
3 --Long Ball Larry--23
4 --Gally--22
5 --DougB--18
6 --timschochet--17
7 --Jagov--17
8 --higgins--16
9 --wikkidpissah--15
10 -Kal El--14
11 -Getzlaf15--14
12 -tuffnutt--13
13 -Zow--12
14 -Ilov80s--11
15 -joffer--11
16 -AAABatteries--11
Zegras11
Footballguy
Guys, I really need your help when posting rankings.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE include the POINTS for each ranking like Wikkid did in the Horse rankings.
EX: #1 (16 pts)
Some of you are going bottom up, and some top down. That's fine. But it can get really confusing for me and impossible to remember which way it's going on the one rank at a time posts.
Thanks!
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE include the POINTS for each ranking like Wikkid did in the Horse rankings.
EX: #1 (16 pts)
Some of you are going bottom up, and some top down. That's fine. But it can get really confusing for me and impossible to remember which way it's going on the one rank at a time posts.
Thanks!
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Benny would be top 5 for nicknames: The Ghetto Wizard but his post retirement run at welterweight had some issues. There was a fighter who took a dive against him and generally some ugly fights for smaller crowds. When he finally got a big fight at welterweight, he was knocked out in the 6th and retired again. It's a case of what could have been. I feel bad for the guy, he made money boxing and invested it all so he could retire at 29. Then he loses it a all a few years later when the stock market crashes forcing him into a desperate attempt to restart his career. Duran, he was great but when we look back at the fabulous 4 of the 80s, Duran is clearly below Sugar Ray and Hagler. His career went on for a very long time but he was mostly losing those fights to younger guys like Vinnie Paz, Camacho.
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Zow
Footballguy
Dude. Not sure if you’re referencing me but I did my best to lay out the criteria. I put in like two hours today. I had my own rankings, I looked numerous rankings from various sources, and I, again, precluded myself from any bias.
I’m sorry I don’t have the life experience that Wikkid does (nor the literary talent). Hell, was only alive for a few if these teams and I really only cognizant first the 1998 Yankees (which isn’t why I rated them one).
Baseball is a game of stats. It’s been that way for decades. It’s a beautiful and poetic game but it’s numbers driven. So, I decided to give some weight to a guy that did a deeper dive into analysis than I ever could or will. I think that’s reasonable.
Are you asking judges to be more subjective??
ETA: you’re also currently in first.
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Zow
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
We started this draft so long ago I'm not sure I know who I picked in the rankings posted so far. 
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
#14 (3 pts) -- George Best
I suspect this ranking is going to get push back. Best is on most of these lists. He's often at the back end of the Top 10. And his highlight reels speak for themselves. He is certainly in the conversation when you talk about the greatest dribblers of all-time.
But the thing is, I'm too young to have seen Best in his prime (and his prime was short). My family had NASL season tickets and I distinctly remember seeing Beckenbauer play for the Cosmos and Gerd Mueller sport those sick Tampa Bay Rowdies socks, but if I saw Best in his NASL days, I don't remember it. So I'm left looking at numbers and whatever scraps of footage and game clips I can get. The clips show me he was an explosive dribbler who loved to get behind the defense by picking defender's pockets or drive at the defense off the dribble. The clips show me he had a powerful and accurate shot that he could get off at full speed. The numbers tell me that he scored at a good rate for a wing in his first four years with Man Utd before "breaking out" in 67/68 (his Ballon D'Or and European Cup year) and staying generally strong through 71-72.
Get used to this complaint, but we just don't have assist data for lthe ate 60s and early 70s outside of World Cup games. Contemporaries say that Best was a good playmaker. That he could cross the ball. And I have no doubt he parked his fair share of balls atop Bobby Charlton's glorious comb-over. But the clips I see show a winger far more interested in making chances for himself than for others.
In terms of resume, Best played on a talented team with two other Ballon D'Or winners (though Denis Law was in decline). Still, Best managed to win the First Division only twice. Both times before his "breakout" year. Of course, he did also with the European Cup. Internationally, he has the bupkis. And while it's easy to chalk that up to Northern Ireland being bad, they made the 1958 and 1982 World Cups.
In terms of contemporaries, Best's career overlaps extensively with Cruyff's, Mueller's, and Beckenbauer's. And it overlaps with the back half of Eusebio's and Pele's careers. Not to mention his English First Division contemporaries like Charlton (Ballon D'Or and World Cup Golden Ball Winner and longtime holder of the record for goals for the English national team) and Jimmy Greaves (scorer of gobs of goals in the First Division in the 60s). It's not that Best doesn't deserve to be drafted. He probably does (but we need to have a talk about Ferenc Puskas and Garrincha, fellas). I just don't think he's in the Top 10. Unless we're judging quotes. In which case, just give him the title.
I suspect this ranking is going to get push back. Best is on most of these lists. He's often at the back end of the Top 10. And his highlight reels speak for themselves. He is certainly in the conversation when you talk about the greatest dribblers of all-time.
But the thing is, I'm too young to have seen Best in his prime (and his prime was short). My family had NASL season tickets and I distinctly remember seeing Beckenbauer play for the Cosmos and Gerd Mueller sport those sick Tampa Bay Rowdies socks, but if I saw Best in his NASL days, I don't remember it. So I'm left looking at numbers and whatever scraps of footage and game clips I can get. The clips show me he was an explosive dribbler who loved to get behind the defense by picking defender's pockets or drive at the defense off the dribble. The clips show me he had a powerful and accurate shot that he could get off at full speed. The numbers tell me that he scored at a good rate for a wing in his first four years with Man Utd before "breaking out" in 67/68 (his Ballon D'Or and European Cup year) and staying generally strong through 71-72.
Get used to this complaint, but we just don't have assist data for lthe ate 60s and early 70s outside of World Cup games. Contemporaries say that Best was a good playmaker. That he could cross the ball. And I have no doubt he parked his fair share of balls atop Bobby Charlton's glorious comb-over. But the clips I see show a winger far more interested in making chances for himself than for others.
In terms of resume, Best played on a talented team with two other Ballon D'Or winners (though Denis Law was in decline). Still, Best managed to win the First Division only twice. Both times before his "breakout" year. Of course, he did also with the European Cup. Internationally, he has the bupkis. And while it's easy to chalk that up to Northern Ireland being bad, they made the 1958 and 1982 World Cups.
In terms of contemporaries, Best's career overlaps extensively with Cruyff's, Mueller's, and Beckenbauer's. And it overlaps with the back half of Eusebio's and Pele's careers. Not to mention his English First Division contemporaries like Charlton (Ballon D'Or and World Cup Golden Ball Winner and longtime holder of the record for goals for the English national team) and Jimmy Greaves (scorer of gobs of goals in the First Division in the 60s). It's not that Best doesn't deserve to be drafted. He probably does (but we need to have a talk about Ferenc Puskas and Garrincha, fellas). I just don't think he's in the Top 10. Unless we're judging quotes. In which case, just give him the title.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I don't think I've offered any passion yet. I would have, but none of you ####ers picked Olivier Giroud.
joffer
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Is there an easy way to add to the spreadsheet the picks relative value?
So far, I think I have
0 (16th pick, 1 pt) -17+16+1
+6 (13th pick, 10 pts) -17+13+10
+1 (14th pick, 4 pts) -17+14+4
So far, I think I have
0 (16th pick, 1 pt) -17+16+1
+6 (13th pick, 10 pts) -17+13+10
+1 (14th pick, 4 pts) -17+14+4
Zegras11
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
well, i've thrilled to be the most advantageous age a sports fan will ever be for 60 years. i guess i can take a bad coupla weeks. now, i'm gonna take a li'l Motor City vaca to keep a certain hitman from googling addresses....
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
hey - i got last place for the only non-Yankee 3peat team in the liveball era from the guy i gave the judging job to earlier in the day. i just need to chill and bodyguard 80s for a while. i dunno what you need to do...
Ilov80s
Footballguy
He is great because when he was in a fight, you knew you would be getting a fight. But when you ultimately look at his 6 biggest career fights, he was 1-4-1.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Nobody can ##### about the judging when you're rolling D20s :BestXIDraft4Evah!:
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Oscar got too consumed by his stardom and being famous but at his peak, he was a hell of a warrior. A peak Oscar vs peak Hearns would have been a blast.
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
females can be warriors, too
ETA: i simply dont think you understand what it took to wrest public attention from heavyweights as that group of welter/middles did. they were that good. the losses to a ham-n-egger like Barkley dont look good, but i still make Tommy -170 against any i've seen since
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Hearts was the first 4 weight class champion and then the first 5 weight class champion. Destroyed Duran in 2 rounds. Got KO’ed by Leonard in the 14th when he was ahead on all 3 cards (props to Sugar Ray, he knew it was the only way he could win that one.) In the rematch draw everyone thought the Hitman won, knocked him down twice early. Even Sugar Ray admitted Hearns won.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
IMO, you have to be a bit careful with all the titles and weight classes because it creates an unfair landscape. When the early fighters participated, there weren't 4 different world titles (WBO, IBO,WBC,etc) for every weight and there weren't all these "super" and "junior" categories. Hearns had 3 titles in the original classes and I don' think he ever won a lineal title. What you say about his beating Duran and the close calls with Sugar Ray are true. He also was wiped out by Hagler in their war. Iran Barkley knocked him way the f out. He lost his rematch with Barkley. He had a run as cruiserweight champ but he never beat anyone at that weight of any significance. It's a total fluff title reign.
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jwb
Footballguy
I'm a Yankee fan, and I agree this team is a little overrated. The M&M boys had an all-time season, you had Berra and Ford (who had a great year), Elston Howard had a nice year, but if it weren't for the big home run total, this team wouldn't have the cachet it has. Is it a top 20 team? Sure. Top 10? Maaaaybe. I could see them ranked higher than the Cubs and Pirates teams you have in the top 10 (probably just dead ball bias on my part). I'm happy my 98 Yankees won this - easily the best team I saw in my lifetime (I'm 53).
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Oscar took the baton from Tyson era HWs to bcome the biggest draw in the sport at his time. So he did what it took 4 guys to do in the 80s. Now a lot of that was good marketing but it's really just the same path that Sugar Ray Leonard took.
jwb
Footballguy
I think most will need to refer to lists to a degree for context, and to maybe help sort out tiers. Otherwise, it's easy for it to become a popularity contest. Nobody remembers those Cubs or Pirates teams then.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Everybody says that but there’s no defense. It’s basically a Rocky movie; two guys taking huge shots against each other. It’s probably the most exciting round of boxing, but best?
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
from the comments:
I like the ostriches in the background stopping to check it out
Hey Frank you seeing this #####
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Zow
Footballguy
Greatest quarterback analysis and rankings
Preamble: QB is probably the most important position in team sports. While there are the occasional teams that can win with just a serviceable QB (looking at you 2001 Ravens and 1987 Redskins), most championship teams got there and won due in large part to strong QB play. I’d also note that after what I believe to be a clear top tier, I really, really struggled to rate the second-tier guys and found many of them to be interchangeable.
Criteria:
1. Domination against their peers (significant weight) – this in part means Super Bowls but it also means career records.
2. Awards (significant weight) – MVPs and All-Pros cannot be overlooked. I think usually the voters get this right so if a guy wins a lot of them it’s really difficult to not strongly consider that.
3. Statistics (some weight) and eye test (some weight) – Unlike baseball where stats are king, QB stats are just not as important and can be misleading. For example, Matthew Stafford is statistically one of the best QBs ever but the eye test suggests he’s a good but not great QB. Further, the game has changed where QBs now how a far superior opportunity to throw for more yards. So, I’m giving some weight to otherworldly stats but trying to balance that out with the eye test. However, to try to use an objective measure, I’m deferring when I believe it’s necessary to a wonderful article which appears to be co-authored by our very own Chase Stuart (and Brad Oremland) from 2018 (giving slight bumps to guys still playing).
4. Longevity (some weight) – it matters. Guys like Randall Cunningham and Kurt Warner had some brilliant years, but a truly great and valuable QB locks down the position for his franchise for a decade plus. Admittedly, most of the guys on the list fit this bill.
5. Innovation (some weight) – in other words, did this QB somehow change the way the position is played? I really think this is an underrated way of looking at QBs.
6. Entertaining and inspirational play (less weight) – Generally to be used as a tiebreaker, I am going to give slight consideration to just how ####### awesome the guy was to watch.
7. QB rating is garbage (zero weight) – Not sure how this rating system got started, but it may be the dumbest stat in sports. So, I’m not really looking at that. I’m giving mild weight to QBR and yardage and TD totals versus INTs but this is a much more of a feel category than a baseball category.
Very surprising omission: Fran Tarkenton. I had him in my top 15 (Chas Stuart had him at 6!). Played for 18 years and was an innovator at the position. Could run and pass. Russell Wilson before Russell was even born.
Somewhat surprising omissions: Troy Aikman (championships), Sid Luckman (severely underrated), Joe Namath (I didn’t have him top 16 but thought he may still go), Russell Wilson (quietly deserving of consideration as he’s made the playoffs every year but once and his advanced stats are quite favorable), Norm Von Brocklin (greatest net yards per pass attempt in history).
Note: my pick was John Elway. I took him middle of the pack and think that’s exactly where he should fall.
Tier One (pure legends of the sport):
16. Tom Brady – 6 Super Bowls. Most wins. Hottest wife. And a complete and total shock to learn if you only ever watched his combine tape. He’s probably the most competitive football player ever and has probably been the greatest the longest. Seriously, incredible respect for this guy who, if you watched the golf match this past weekend, is quite evident to not be a pure/natural athlete. To me that seals him as the GOAT in a sport where it’s filled with almost superhumans.
15. Joe Montana – Postseason stats are just undeniably good. My first real memory of him was in 1989. I was sitting on the floor at my grandmother’s house to watch the Vikings (the family team) play the Niners in the divisional round. I was just starting to get into football (thanks, Tecmo Bowl) and recognized the name. I commented that Vikings had the same or better record going into the game and therefore should win (six-year-old logic still matches my 36-year-old logic – ‘72 Dolphins!). I still remember my grandmother, who I never really heard her mention sports otherwise, say, “they have that Joe Cool guy; we won’t win.” And we sure didn’t. During perhaps the greatest 8 game stretch in the playoffs (that only ended because Montana got injured), Montana has a crazy 22:2 TD to INT ratio and, for what it’s worth, had a 100 point plus passer rating in each game. If I had to start a franchise, I honestly would take Manning, but Montana deserves this spot for his ability to win when it mattered most. He also threw what I can only describe as a “soft” ball – that is, a ball that is so perfectly thrown with touch that it almost seems to stop at the point of being caught – which ,to me, rivals only Peyton’s ability to do this.
14. Peyton Manning – Gun to my head, if I’m starting a franchise from scratch and could take any QB in history, I’m rolling with Peyton. He’s a five-time league MVP which is the most ever. He was also clearly the smartest guy on the field at any given time – he basically was his own offensive coordinator. Also, notably, he’s probably the reason our fantasy leagues don’t have a week 17 game. But, due to arguably a Vanderjagt miss, Manning ranks third on this list because of his two Super Bowls compared to Montana’s 4 and Brady’s 6. But, man, he’d be awesome to talk to for hours about how to play the position. And, statistically-speaking, he’s the best.
13. Johnny Unitas – The QB position that we see today can be mostly attributed to Unitas. Clock management, developing a go-to WR, two-minute drills: that’s all Johnny. That alone gets him in the top-tier. His consecutive TD stretch at the end of the 50s where he was throwing less than 29 passes per game and his 3 MVPs seals this spot.
Tier Two (nearly impossible to rank – really these guys are interchangeable):
12. Otto Graham – Graham really jumps off the page when you consider him compared to his contemporaries. Using Chase Stuart’s total statistical production (TSP – kind of like WAR), Graham blows the socks off his league mates. This, to me, makes him an innovator. Add in his consistency and longevity and he tops the more contemporary QBs in this tier.
11. Dan Marino – While he never won a Super Bowl (only guy in the top ten not to have), nobody threw the ball around the yard as well as Marino. When he retired in 1999, he basically held every meaningful passing record there was – and per Stuart he led them by a full standard deviation in some cases. He was top ten in the league for 14 seasons and named all-pro 8 times. Put a ring on his finger and he probably leaps to the top tier. I started playing fantasy football around his time, and had a buddy that loved the Dolphins, and the guy seemed to throw for a million yards per game and be the best player on the field – but not always win.
10. Drew Brees – I see Drew as Dan Marino 2.0 with a ring. I’m just not sure if I see him as an all-timer and a lot of his statistics came in low leverage situations. Now, I’m not saying he’s the Russell Baze of pro football (yet, if he was, he’d still be top ten
), but this feels about right for him as he doesn’t strike fear into my heart when watching him like many of these other guys do or did. Love the guy though and how good of a role model he is. Saints fans really have to be proud to see this guy behind center for them for so many years.
9. John Elway – My selection (I think I took him 7th off the board and passed over Otto and Marino) so I’ll keep the commentary brief: known for his 4th quarter comebacks, he was consistently tops in the league through his final seasons proving both consistency and longevity.
Tier Two subcategory (God, I hate the Packers)
8. Brett Favre – #### that miracle pass to Antonio Freeman. Yeah, I’m sorry your dad died, but did you really have to go and just dump all over my fantasy team on a Monday night with a 399 and 4 line? And, finally, I’ll despise you forever after beating my team for years only to come join us then throw that awful INT against the Saints. But he did win 3 straight MVPs, played forever, set a boatload of records, and send the most famous **** pic of all-time. He’s top ten. I can’t deny it. But, I’ll never wear Wranglers or drink Budweiser.
7. Aaron Rodgers – Really, really weird guy. But, for a weird dude, he can really throw the football. Easily the prettiest thrower I’ve ever seen. He scares me wherever he is on the field and, if I didn’t loathe his team, he’d probably be the most fun player to watch of his generation. He notches behind his predecessor due to the lessor statistical accomplishments and the lesser number of MVPs. Could see an argument for him ahead of Favre, though.
Tier Three (just winners):
6. Sammy Baugh – Admittedly, this was the hardest player to rank for me. Pro football just was a different game when he played. Heck, Sammy once led the league in interceptions (as in, he did the intercepting) and once led the league in punting average. O-linemen couldn’t extend their arms to block and the idea of sending receivers down the field for deeper passes was a foreign concept. Yet, slingin’ Sammy still put up stats that Mitch Trubisky would happily take today. He was an innovator for the position when the position was something different. To the drafter who took him, I love the pick but just didn’t know how I could get him into the top ten.
5. Roger Staubach – Spends four years in the Navy then gets into a setup where he and Morton rotate every play. Concussions and injuries bit him too. Would he complain about any of that? I doubt it. And for eight years as a starter he was probably the best QB in the 70s. But, unlike the players ahead of him on this list, he only played 8 years and really didn’t have any truly exceptional seasons (which was likely difficult during the defense-dominated 1970s). 12th overall seems about right.
4. Steve Young – The man went on a mission, and then he really went on a mission where he ended up the greatest dual threat QB of all-time. His 1994 season was one of the best all-time for an individual QB season. He’s hurt a touch by overall career numbers as he only started for 8 seasons. He also became a lawyer so, really, he can’t be all that great.
Tier four (system QBs? Nah, but there are some flaws to these guys):
3. Bart Starr – Often overshadowed by Favre and Rodgers, Starr probably knew how to win better than both: he went 9-1 in the playoff. But his career seemed to dip without Lombardi and he’s tough to gauge really given the era and the propensity for his teams to run.
2. Warren Moon – Next to Baugh, I struggled the most with Moon because I truly believe that had he been lighter-skinned he’d have been Dan Marino. Moon has to spend six years playing in Canada and had coaches trying to get him to play WR. Further, when he got to the NFL, Moon wasn’t exactly playing for powerhouse teams. He only won three playoff games and never made a conference championship. Yet, he was a purer thrower who played for a long time and amassed stats that hold up under almost any metric. I’d also note that he took the Oilers to the playoffs for several years in a row and when he left for Minnesota (where he was a joy to watch) they dropped to 4-12. I think he’s greatly underappreciated. I think racism and bias unfairly stunted his opportunities. I think he could be higher on this list. But, I think some may complain that I have him above a guy with 4 SBs to his name. Alas, he comes in 15th (which is where I think he was drafted so at least this ranking doesn’t penalize the drafter).
1. Terry Bradshaw – Probably the most over-achieving QB of all-time (sorry Eli, Terry had 4 to you r 2). Great system, great receivers, great play by Terry in the postseason, but less than great play in the regular season. Product of the 70s defense-dominated era? Perhaps. And, perhaps, I’m an unfair judge to weigh him because I wasn’t alive to see him play. But, especially given the guy we currently get to see make a fool of himself on TV, he just seems like a good but not great QB who landed in the right spot. I would have taken Tarkenton and Luckman, and arguably Aikman and Von Brocklin, over him.
Preamble: QB is probably the most important position in team sports. While there are the occasional teams that can win with just a serviceable QB (looking at you 2001 Ravens and 1987 Redskins), most championship teams got there and won due in large part to strong QB play. I’d also note that after what I believe to be a clear top tier, I really, really struggled to rate the second-tier guys and found many of them to be interchangeable.
Criteria:
1. Domination against their peers (significant weight) – this in part means Super Bowls but it also means career records.
2. Awards (significant weight) – MVPs and All-Pros cannot be overlooked. I think usually the voters get this right so if a guy wins a lot of them it’s really difficult to not strongly consider that.
3. Statistics (some weight) and eye test (some weight) – Unlike baseball where stats are king, QB stats are just not as important and can be misleading. For example, Matthew Stafford is statistically one of the best QBs ever but the eye test suggests he’s a good but not great QB. Further, the game has changed where QBs now how a far superior opportunity to throw for more yards. So, I’m giving some weight to otherworldly stats but trying to balance that out with the eye test. However, to try to use an objective measure, I’m deferring when I believe it’s necessary to a wonderful article which appears to be co-authored by our very own Chase Stuart (and Brad Oremland) from 2018 (giving slight bumps to guys still playing).
4. Longevity (some weight) – it matters. Guys like Randall Cunningham and Kurt Warner had some brilliant years, but a truly great and valuable QB locks down the position for his franchise for a decade plus. Admittedly, most of the guys on the list fit this bill.
5. Innovation (some weight) – in other words, did this QB somehow change the way the position is played? I really think this is an underrated way of looking at QBs.
6. Entertaining and inspirational play (less weight) – Generally to be used as a tiebreaker, I am going to give slight consideration to just how ####### awesome the guy was to watch.
7. QB rating is garbage (zero weight) – Not sure how this rating system got started, but it may be the dumbest stat in sports. So, I’m not really looking at that. I’m giving mild weight to QBR and yardage and TD totals versus INTs but this is a much more of a feel category than a baseball category.
Very surprising omission: Fran Tarkenton. I had him in my top 15 (Chas Stuart had him at 6!). Played for 18 years and was an innovator at the position. Could run and pass. Russell Wilson before Russell was even born.
Somewhat surprising omissions: Troy Aikman (championships), Sid Luckman (severely underrated), Joe Namath (I didn’t have him top 16 but thought he may still go), Russell Wilson (quietly deserving of consideration as he’s made the playoffs every year but once and his advanced stats are quite favorable), Norm Von Brocklin (greatest net yards per pass attempt in history).
Note: my pick was John Elway. I took him middle of the pack and think that’s exactly where he should fall.
Tier One (pure legends of the sport):
16. Tom Brady – 6 Super Bowls. Most wins. Hottest wife. And a complete and total shock to learn if you only ever watched his combine tape. He’s probably the most competitive football player ever and has probably been the greatest the longest. Seriously, incredible respect for this guy who, if you watched the golf match this past weekend, is quite evident to not be a pure/natural athlete. To me that seals him as the GOAT in a sport where it’s filled with almost superhumans.
15. Joe Montana – Postseason stats are just undeniably good. My first real memory of him was in 1989. I was sitting on the floor at my grandmother’s house to watch the Vikings (the family team) play the Niners in the divisional round. I was just starting to get into football (thanks, Tecmo Bowl) and recognized the name. I commented that Vikings had the same or better record going into the game and therefore should win (six-year-old logic still matches my 36-year-old logic – ‘72 Dolphins!). I still remember my grandmother, who I never really heard her mention sports otherwise, say, “they have that Joe Cool guy; we won’t win.” And we sure didn’t. During perhaps the greatest 8 game stretch in the playoffs (that only ended because Montana got injured), Montana has a crazy 22:2 TD to INT ratio and, for what it’s worth, had a 100 point plus passer rating in each game. If I had to start a franchise, I honestly would take Manning, but Montana deserves this spot for his ability to win when it mattered most. He also threw what I can only describe as a “soft” ball – that is, a ball that is so perfectly thrown with touch that it almost seems to stop at the point of being caught – which ,to me, rivals only Peyton’s ability to do this.
14. Peyton Manning – Gun to my head, if I’m starting a franchise from scratch and could take any QB in history, I’m rolling with Peyton. He’s a five-time league MVP which is the most ever. He was also clearly the smartest guy on the field at any given time – he basically was his own offensive coordinator. Also, notably, he’s probably the reason our fantasy leagues don’t have a week 17 game. But, due to arguably a Vanderjagt miss, Manning ranks third on this list because of his two Super Bowls compared to Montana’s 4 and Brady’s 6. But, man, he’d be awesome to talk to for hours about how to play the position. And, statistically-speaking, he’s the best.
13. Johnny Unitas – The QB position that we see today can be mostly attributed to Unitas. Clock management, developing a go-to WR, two-minute drills: that’s all Johnny. That alone gets him in the top-tier. His consecutive TD stretch at the end of the 50s where he was throwing less than 29 passes per game and his 3 MVPs seals this spot.
Tier Two (nearly impossible to rank – really these guys are interchangeable):
12. Otto Graham – Graham really jumps off the page when you consider him compared to his contemporaries. Using Chase Stuart’s total statistical production (TSP – kind of like WAR), Graham blows the socks off his league mates. This, to me, makes him an innovator. Add in his consistency and longevity and he tops the more contemporary QBs in this tier.
11. Dan Marino – While he never won a Super Bowl (only guy in the top ten not to have), nobody threw the ball around the yard as well as Marino. When he retired in 1999, he basically held every meaningful passing record there was – and per Stuart he led them by a full standard deviation in some cases. He was top ten in the league for 14 seasons and named all-pro 8 times. Put a ring on his finger and he probably leaps to the top tier. I started playing fantasy football around his time, and had a buddy that loved the Dolphins, and the guy seemed to throw for a million yards per game and be the best player on the field – but not always win.
10. Drew Brees – I see Drew as Dan Marino 2.0 with a ring. I’m just not sure if I see him as an all-timer and a lot of his statistics came in low leverage situations. Now, I’m not saying he’s the Russell Baze of pro football (yet, if he was, he’d still be top ten
), but this feels about right for him as he doesn’t strike fear into my heart when watching him like many of these other guys do or did. Love the guy though and how good of a role model he is. Saints fans really have to be proud to see this guy behind center for them for so many years.9. John Elway – My selection (I think I took him 7th off the board and passed over Otto and Marino) so I’ll keep the commentary brief: known for his 4th quarter comebacks, he was consistently tops in the league through his final seasons proving both consistency and longevity.
Tier Two subcategory (God, I hate the Packers)
8. Brett Favre – #### that miracle pass to Antonio Freeman. Yeah, I’m sorry your dad died, but did you really have to go and just dump all over my fantasy team on a Monday night with a 399 and 4 line? And, finally, I’ll despise you forever after beating my team for years only to come join us then throw that awful INT against the Saints. But he did win 3 straight MVPs, played forever, set a boatload of records, and send the most famous **** pic of all-time. He’s top ten. I can’t deny it. But, I’ll never wear Wranglers or drink Budweiser.
7. Aaron Rodgers – Really, really weird guy. But, for a weird dude, he can really throw the football. Easily the prettiest thrower I’ve ever seen. He scares me wherever he is on the field and, if I didn’t loathe his team, he’d probably be the most fun player to watch of his generation. He notches behind his predecessor due to the lessor statistical accomplishments and the lesser number of MVPs. Could see an argument for him ahead of Favre, though.
Tier Three (just winners):
6. Sammy Baugh – Admittedly, this was the hardest player to rank for me. Pro football just was a different game when he played. Heck, Sammy once led the league in interceptions (as in, he did the intercepting) and once led the league in punting average. O-linemen couldn’t extend their arms to block and the idea of sending receivers down the field for deeper passes was a foreign concept. Yet, slingin’ Sammy still put up stats that Mitch Trubisky would happily take today. He was an innovator for the position when the position was something different. To the drafter who took him, I love the pick but just didn’t know how I could get him into the top ten.
5. Roger Staubach – Spends four years in the Navy then gets into a setup where he and Morton rotate every play. Concussions and injuries bit him too. Would he complain about any of that? I doubt it. And for eight years as a starter he was probably the best QB in the 70s. But, unlike the players ahead of him on this list, he only played 8 years and really didn’t have any truly exceptional seasons (which was likely difficult during the defense-dominated 1970s). 12th overall seems about right.
4. Steve Young – The man went on a mission, and then he really went on a mission where he ended up the greatest dual threat QB of all-time. His 1994 season was one of the best all-time for an individual QB season. He’s hurt a touch by overall career numbers as he only started for 8 seasons. He also became a lawyer so, really, he can’t be all that great.
Tier four (system QBs? Nah, but there are some flaws to these guys):
3. Bart Starr – Often overshadowed by Favre and Rodgers, Starr probably knew how to win better than both: he went 9-1 in the playoff. But his career seemed to dip without Lombardi and he’s tough to gauge really given the era and the propensity for his teams to run.
2. Warren Moon – Next to Baugh, I struggled the most with Moon because I truly believe that had he been lighter-skinned he’d have been Dan Marino. Moon has to spend six years playing in Canada and had coaches trying to get him to play WR. Further, when he got to the NFL, Moon wasn’t exactly playing for powerhouse teams. He only won three playoff games and never made a conference championship. Yet, he was a purer thrower who played for a long time and amassed stats that hold up under almost any metric. I’d also note that he took the Oilers to the playoffs for several years in a row and when he left for Minnesota (where he was a joy to watch) they dropped to 4-12. I think he’s greatly underappreciated. I think racism and bias unfairly stunted his opportunities. I think he could be higher on this list. But, I think some may complain that I have him above a guy with 4 SBs to his name. Alas, he comes in 15th (which is where I think he was drafted so at least this ranking doesn’t penalize the drafter).
1. Terry Bradshaw – Probably the most over-achieving QB of all-time (sorry Eli, Terry had 4 to you r 2). Great system, great receivers, great play by Terry in the postseason, but less than great play in the regular season. Product of the 70s defense-dominated era? Perhaps. And, perhaps, I’m an unfair judge to weigh him because I wasn’t alive to see him play. But, especially given the guy we currently get to see make a fool of himself on TV, he just seems like a good but not great QB who landed in the right spot. I would have taken Tarkenton and Luckman, and arguably Aikman and Von Brocklin, over him.
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