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timschochet

2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck

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1 minute ago, Getzlaf15 said:

working on NFL Offensive Linemen now...  Anyone have anything they think I should use as criteria besides, games, ALL Pro, Pro Bowls?  Would hate to do this and find out I missed something that could have helped. 

General orneriness?

I would heavily discount Pro Bowls bc the guys voting are notoriously slow at recognizing risers and lazily vote for guys based on rep.

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Maybe the best way to describe how I think Floyd's mentality and approach is different from most fighters. Most fighters think, "how can I use my strengths to win the fight."
 Floyd approached it more as "what strengths does my opponent have that I need to take away so that I can't lose the fight." 

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3 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

working on NFL Offensive Linemen now...  Anyone have anything they think I should use as criteria besides, games, ALL Pro, Pro Bowls?  Would hate to do this and find out I missed something that could have helped. 

 

1 minute ago, Ilov80s said:

All decade teams and such. Since the position doesn't really have stats, it's hard to do much more than that. 

Very difficult to judge which is why it was difficult to draft too.  After the first couple it then was a crap shoot.  Maybe 1000 yd rushers, sacks given up(not sure if that is readily available).  Good luck Getz....

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1 minute ago, BobbyLayne said:

General orneriness?

I would heavily discount Pro Bowls bc the guys voting are notoriously slow at recognizing risers and lazily vote for guys based on rep.

I planned on discounting them for sure.   Gut says 2/3 value of All Pro.

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Just now, Getzlaf15 said:

I planned on discounting them for sure.   Gut says 2/3 value of All Pro.

I think All Pro and Pro Bowls are different...….Pro Bowls appearances also have become really watered down but probably had much more value in the 70's.  Now players back out so they go to 5th or 6th best because they are willing to play. 

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FBref.com has an approximate value category and the same that is weighted.   I'm going to possibly use the wighted, but not give it a whole lot of weight compared to other things.

 

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1 minute ago, Gally said:

I think All Pro and Pro Bowls are different...….Pro Bowls appearances also have become really watered down but probably had much more value in the 70's.  Now players back out so they go to 5th or 6th best because they are willing to play. 

So less than 2/3 value of a All Pro?   50?  40%?

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Just now, Getzlaf15 said:

So less than 2/3 value of a All Pro?   50?  40%?

I am not sure.  I think it really is era dependent.  I think in the 60's and 70's pro bowls were meaningful and maybe some into the 80's.  more recent guys not so much.  I also think All Pro was more like a 1st Team all NBA type award.  Limited who got them.

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25 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

working on NFL Offensive Linemen now...  Anyone have anything they think I should use as criteria besides, games, ALL Pro, Pro Bowls?  Would hate to do this and find out I missed something that could have helped. 

receiving TDs  ;)

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33 minutes ago, Gally said:

I am not sure.  I think it really is era dependent.  I think in the 60's and 70's pro bowls were meaningful and maybe some into the 80's.  more recent guys not so much.  I also think All Pro was more like a 1st Team all NBA type award.  Limited who got them.

I remember a couple of guys playing semi-hurt in the 1983 Pro Bowl -- most notably Earl Campbell after his final 1,000-yard season. Today, those same guys would've sat out.

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I'd give pro-bowls very little weight compared to all-pros. 

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1 hour ago, Doug B said:

I remember a couple of guys playing semi-hurt in the 1983 Pro Bowl -- most notably Earl Campbell after his final 1,000-yard season. Today, those same guys would've sat out.

Yep - nobody ever went hard at the Pro Bowl but they didn’t blow it off either.

Most of the time the replacements are still good players but I’ll never forget Mike Boryla being a replacement after Fran Tarkenton & Roger Staubach opted out. He lost his starting job for part of 1975 in which threw for 996 yards with 6 TDs/12 INTs. On the plus side he was in town getting ready for a semester at NYU Law. So the NFL called him up to see if he’d like an all expense vacation to NOLA. $2K for a weeks work.

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Posted (edited)

Here are your super official NBA-GUARDS Category Rankings

My objective criteria included rings, MVPs, All-NBA's, All-D's, DPOY, All-star games and advanced stats.  I figured for just 16 guys, this would give me enough information to rank them.  I also took into account a couple of subjective criteria where I adjusted for the era in which they played and if they are still active (insofar as they haven't had the downward trend at the end of their careers in their advanced stats).  I most heavily weighted MVP's, All-NBA selections and advanced stats.  All-star rankings were given minor consideration as were All-D selections.

Side notes on other NBA guards not included - Oscar would have been around #4 or #5 (used in NCAA), Chris Paul would have been better than at least 3 or 4 at the bottom and Allen Iverson would have been about a spot or two behind him.

From least to best:

Tier 5 - Doesn't belong here

#16 (1 pt) - Joe Dumars - Don't get me wrong, I love the guy's game and am a fan of the Bad Boys.  But under no criteria could I rank him above last in this category and he even gets his own special tier.  This was almost as easy as my top selection was.  His defense was strong, but not "top 20 of all time" good and his offense just wasn't anything spectacular.  Again, he is a great player and HOF caliber guy and was a great teammate on a great team, but this is the cream of the crop here.

Tier 4 - Hall of Famers without longtime dominance or individual greatness

#15 (2 pts) - Clyde Drexler - His one ring was as a clear cut #2 guy on the team.  Only one 1st team All-NBA selection was a huge knock with no MVP's.  He was really really good for a long time and his advanced stats are decent which is why he is in this tier, but the lack of accolades compared to his peers was just too much to overcome for his final ranking.

#14 (3 pts) - George Gervin - the Iceman could fill up the bucket.  He was #2 in MVP voting twice and #3 once, but never got the award.  He also never won a championship, but 5 1st team All-NBA selections were enough to get him out of the cellar here.

#13 (4 pts) - Walt Frazier - Clyde was a great leader and New York City has 2 NBA championships thanks to his efforts.  His advanced stats are incomplete due to his era not having enough statistical data, but he was a 4 time all-NBA 1st teamer and a 7 time all-defensive selection.  His defensive accolades and 2 rings brought him up to here, but could get him no further.

#12 (5 pts) - Isiah Thomas - Zeke was similar to Frazier, but with greater longevity and in a much more difficult era.  Based on my objective measures, Frazier was ranked better, but I moved him down because Isiah was sandwiched in with a lot of guys at the top of this list making his run a bit more impressive, IMO.

Tier 3 - Some top notch superstars that were hard as F to rank (seriously, I struggled with this group and changed my mind like 100 times)

#11 (6 pts) - Jason Kidd - He is very high on the all time assists, steals and 3-pt lists.  Has a ring (as the #2), 5 1st-team all-NBA and a 9 time All-D selection.  I feel like he gets forgotten about often in these kinds of lists, but he was a great point guard for a very long time.  He was clearly above everyone in tier 4, but ended up last out of this tier due to never being named MVP and never being the lead dog on an NBA championship team.  His longevity is his greatest attribute, but he never shined as bright as those above him.

 #10 (7 pts) - James Harden - This is probably my most controversial ranking, but the Beard is unguardable.  He won an MVP already, was in the running this year and has been in the conversation for the past 4 years (finishing 2nd twice).  His advanced stats come in at #4 (although without an end-of-career decline) and he is a 5-time NBA 1st team selection.  His game isn't pretty and I'm personally shocked that I have him this high already, but the fact is, he belongs in the top 12 of guards all-time already and still has a lot left in the tank.  I doubt he cracks the top 5, but he could still move up the ladder a bit, especially with a ring or another MVP under his belt.

#9 (8 pts) - Bob Cousy - Based on the objective data, the Houdini of the Hardwood should be a lot higher.  However, his advanced stats are incomplete due to playing in such an early era and what we do have is below this tier.  He also played with one of the greatest centers of all time and for one of the greatest coaches of all time against a fairly limited pool of players compared to today's game.  All that said, he still is in the top 10 due to the greatness with which he played the PG position.  He has an MVP, 6 rings and was a 10 time All-NBA 1st teamer.

#8 (9 pts) - Dwayne Wade - 3 rings and a boatload of All-stars, All-NBA teams and All-D selections.  Plus, he may have the hottest wife in the group, which should count for something (but doesn't).  His advanced stats are decent and he received MVP votes in 8 seasons (closest was 3rd).  He had longevity and some peak success as the best player on the 05-06 championship team.  I used to be more down on him than the pundits, but after looking closer, he truly is one of the all-time great shooting guards.

#7 (10 pts) - Steve Nash - As I said at the beginning, I value MVP's a lot and he has 2 of them.  He played against some great teams and never had the all-time running mate he needed (early Dirk just wasn't there yet) to get deep in the playoffs.  But for a brief while, his Phoenix Suns offense under D'Antonio was a thing of beauty and he ran it to perfection.  He was a member of the 50/40/90 club 4 times (the most ever) and a masterful passer.  I had him all over the place in my rankings, but for a 3 year window, he was the best point guard in the game and it wasn't even close.

#6 (11 pts) - Jerry West - the logo was number 2 for almost his entire career.  4 times he finished #2 in MVP voting (never winning) and lost in the finals EIGHT TIMES (finally winning a ring in 1972).  Only those near misses keep him out of the top tier.  His incomplete advanced stats were pretty high and he was a 10 time all-NBA first teamer and a 5 time All-D selection.  He was one of the greatest guards to ever lace them up, but the aforementioned lack of rings & MVP's plus his era keeps him down the list.

#5 (12 pts) - John Stockton - Another guy I used to be down on, having never won an MVP or a ring, but it took a pretty good player to beat him twice in the Finals and he is the all time leader in assists and steals.  The main reason I rank him at #5?  His advanced stats are phenomenal where I have him tied with the penultimate player in this category. He was a great player for a very long time who just happened to run into the GOAT a couple of times during his peak.

Tier 2 - These guys all have multiple accolades and rings as their team's #1 guy and were clearly the best guards of their respective eras.

#4 (13 pts) - Steph Curry - I don't care what anyone says, this is where he belongs already.  3 rings, 2 MVPs, great advanced stats, 6 time all-NBA, 6 time all-star and the greatest shooter I've ever seen.  He is a member of the 50-40-90 club while taking shots that would get most players benched for even thinking of attempting.  I hated the Warriors for the last few years after Durant joined them and I'm tired of seeing him laugh at the refs while chewing on his mouthpiece.  However, this guy is easily one of the greatest guards of all time and will solidify his spot here (although I don't know if he'll get any higher).

#3 (14 pts) - Kobe Bryant - The Black Mamba is not my favorite player and his single MVP is a bit of a blip, but he finished in the top 5 eleven times.  5 rings, a record 18 all-stars, 12 time all-D and 11 1st team All-NBA are tops on this list.  His advanced stats aren't as dominant because he was an inefficient volume shooter (especially toward the end), but when at his peak, few were ever better.  Probably the most MJ like player besides his Airness, Kobe was a clutch player when it mattered and could play some mean defense when he wanted to.

#2 (15 pts) - Magic Johnson - An easy pick as a 3 time MVP and 5 time champion.  His advanced stats are tied for second (with the aforementioned Stockton) and while his career greatness wasn't as prolonged as Kobe's, it was still impressive.  He is at the top of every single greatest point guard list you will see and is easily the #2 guy on this list.

Tier 1 - The GOAT (and not just among guards)

#1 (16 pts) - Michael Jordan - MJ is the man.  He is salty and bitter and a #### to his teammates, but on the court there has never been anyone better in the history of the game.  He has as many rings as Cousy (6), 2 more MVPs than Magic (5) and is the only guy on this list to have a DPOY award.  His advanced stats were leaps and bounds better than everyone else.  He is both the best offensive and defensive player on this list.  No ranking will be easier in this draft.

Edited by Jayrod
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Standings after Jayrod's rankings of NBA Guards

 

1 --jwb--69

2 --otb_lifer--65

3 --Gally--58

4 --wikkidpissah--58

5 --Ilov80s--57

6 --AAABatteries--56

7 --Long Ball Larry--53

8 --higgins--52

9 --tuffnutt--49

10 -timschochet--48

11 -Jagov--47

12 -Zow--45

13 -DougB--42

14 -Kal El--40

15 -joffer--39

16 -Getzlaf15--38

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Damn, almost went with Nash over Wade. Both were value there but should have pulled the trigger. 

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Posted (edited)

Big praise to all the judges so far.  Everyone has done a great job and each write up has been outstanding.  It's my first one of these type drafts here and it's been really informative and interesting.  Keep it up judges!

Edited by Gally
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Back to the soccer-ers.

I hate myself for doing this, but I keep trying to put other guys here and I can't bring myself to do it.  

No. 13 (4 pts) -- Paolo Maldini

This will probably be the shortest write-up.  Because there's not really much analysis I can hang my hat on.  The blot on Maldini's resume is that he never won a major international tournament.  But he was in the Team of the Tournament in 5 international tournaments.  He helped the Italians keep five consecutive clean sheets at home in '90.  He deputized for much of USA 94 for Franco Baresi, slotting in at CB instead of his then customary LB.  He, as much as Baggio, IMO, helped pull that team to the final.

As a club footballer, he played in 8 European Cup/Champions League finals.  He won 5.  He won the Scudetto with Milan seven times.  He helped anchor defenses that gave up 14 goals, 15 goals, and 19 goals in three respective Serie A seasons.  

But is the nature of great defenders that they play on great defenses.  And great defenses tend to feature other great defenders.  So Maldini went from playing alongside Baresi, Costacurta, and Tassoti to lining up beside Nest, Jaap Stam, and Cafu.  

And the curse of Maldini's bad luck in international tournaments is that Italy under Cannavaro and Gigi would go on to defensively dominate Germany 06 right after Paolo resigned from international duty.  Beckenbauer has a bit more well-rounded resume and contributed more to his team's control of possession.  There are a couple of guys who could be the other defender on this list.   Maldini's case is as good as any.  I don't know if he was better than Baresi.  Heck I don't know if he was better than Thuram (I really, really loved Thuram), but I do know that he was phenomenal.  Unfortunately, so's everyone left on the list.

 

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4 hours ago, Zow said:

There enough data on sacks/pressures allowed? Any advanced stats on contributions to the running game?

Doubtful for guys before 2000:, maybe some 90s

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1 hour ago, Gally said:

Big praise to all the judges so far.  Everyone has done a great job and each write up has been outstanding.  It's my first one of these type drafts here and it's been really informative and interesting.  Keep it up judges!

Agreed.

i will rank the judges.

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Posted (edited)

NFL Offensive Linemen Rankings

Appreciate the advice today from all those that chimed in.  Not easy as there are not a lot of stats.

So here's what I used....  I do a relative ranking for each criteria, meaning if four players were All pro 9 times, they each get the same number of points.  The guys with 7 get relatively less compared to the sum of the entire group.

Criteria:
1) Award Pts - NFL 100 and Decade 1st and 2nd team awards.  Guys not on NFL 100 got dinged here.  FBref.com had listed their own decade teams and the HOF decade teams. I used those.
2) All-Pro -  These two cats were weighed the highest.
3) Pro Bowls - ranked at 40% of All Pros.  After looking at all the data, that looked like the best number.
4) Approximate Value (Weighted) -  FBref.com has a system to rank all players each year. Appears the max rating is 20.0. This criteria was based on the career total.  Medium max point value for best score.
5) Approximate Value 10+ for the season -  It was clear looking at each player, that using the total number of 10+ seasons would show consistency and reward longevity of excellence. Medium criteria rank for highest score like #4 above.
6) Internet Rankings... Found three decent Offensive ranking lists on the net.  The total of all three combined was only 60% value of Criteria 1/2 above. But wanted the opinion of so called experts to count.  Only four players were on all three sites Top 16.

Notable missing player - Ron Mix


1 PT. - Joe Jacoby.  20.86 pts.  Lowest AllPro (AP) and ProBowl(PB).  3rd lowest Games played (GP).  1980 2nd team twice . Lowest AppValue and 10+AppValue. Not on a Top 16  list.


2 PTS -  Dan Dierdorf.    26.03 pts.   6 PB and 3 AP are 50% more than Jacoby in each.   And way behind most others. 2nd lowest games played.  Did make the bottom of all three Top 16's.  1970 2nd team once.


3  PTS -  Will Shields.   31.94 pts.   12PB and TWO AP.  WTF is that?   Had a decent number (10) of AV10+ seasons, but played 3rd most games of this group so that shaved a few points off.  2000 2nd team only.


4 PTS - Ron Yary.    34.10 pts.     1970's 1st and 2nd team.  7PB and 6 AP.   Only 5 AV10+ seasons hurt here.  These four guys were the only ones to not make NFL 100 on the list.


5 PTS - Art Shell.   34.24 pts.    NFL 100 and 1970 1st team twice.   8 PB and 2 AP knocked him down to Yary, but the NFL 100 gives him the higher place here. Also had only 5 AV10+ seasons.


6 PTS - Jim Parker.  39.93 pts.   8PB and 8 AP in the fewest amount of GP on list. NFL 100 and 1960 2nd team twice.  The 8 AP was 2nd on list to the high of 9, and that bumped him over Shell's 2 AP.  On;y had 5 AV10+ seasons also.


7 PTS -  Gene Upshaw.   41.31 pts.   NFL 100 and 1970 1st and 2nd.   7 PB and 5 AP.  Had 9 AV10+ seasons and was 6th on AV career list of this group. 


8 PTS - Mike Webster.   43.95 pts.    NFL 100, 1980's 1st and 2nd and 1970's 2nd.  9 PB and 5 AP.   Had 9 AV10+ seasons and was 4th on AV career list of this group.


9 PTS - Larry Allen.   44.17 pts.   Like most judgings, the middle group of guys is insanely close.   NFL 100 and 1990 and 2000 2nd teams.   11 PB and 6 AP to edge Webster there. One less AV10+ season than Webster not enough to take him down a notch.


10 PTS - Jonathan Ogden.  45.36 pts.   NFL 100 and 2000 1st teams.   11 PB and 4 AP.  Just the second player so far to make all three internet Top16's.  Playing 2 less seasons with the same AV10+ as Allen looks to be the difference here.


11 PTS - John Hannah.   50.13 pts.   Up a tier here IMO.   NFL100, 1980 1st and 2nd, 1970 2nd.  9PB and 7 AP.   3 more AP than Ogden.  Nine AV10+ seasons. One more than Ogden. 


12 PTS - Jim Otto.    51.82 pts.    NFL 100 and 1960 1st.   12PB and 10AP.   8th in career AV on this list knocked him down just a bit.  Wasn't ranked high on the net lists either.


13 PTS - Randall McDaniel.   52.32 pts.   NFL 100 and 1990 1st team twice.   12PB and 7AP.  Had 3rd highest career AV and 11 AP10+ seasons for 2nd in that.  That put him ahead of Otto, along with higher net rankings.


14 PTS - Forrest Gregg.   52.41 pts.   NFL 100 and 1960 1st team twice.    9PB and 7AP.    Had lesser AV scores than MdDaniel, but ranked 2nd, 2nd and 4th on net lists to put him ahead.  This is why I'm glad I gave a tiny bit of weight to the net lists.


15 PTS - Bruce Matthews.   57.10 pts.   NFL 100 and 1990 1st team twice.    14 PB and 7 AP.   Highest career AV score at 134.  One more than Munoz, but in 92 more games.  3rd or 4th on all the net lists.  13 AV10+ seasons was two more than anyone else, and that long string of excellence pushed him to #2.


16 PTS -  Anthony Munoz.    63.04 pts.   NFL100 and 1980 1st team twice.   11PB and the most 9AP.   Had 10 AV10+ seasons. Was #1 on all three net lists.  (that gave him 2.23 more pts than Matthews).  Simply played the highest percentage of superior seasons than the rest.  The ONLY one on the list to be AV #1 in all of the NFL for all positions for a season.
 

Edited by Getzlaf15
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Standings after Getzlaf15's rankings of NFL Offensive Linemen

 

1 --jwb--81

2 --otb_lifer--73

3 --AAABatteries--70

4 --Ilov80s--66

5 --Gally--63

6 --Zow--60

7 --wikkidpissah--59

8 --timschochet--58

9 --Jagov--58

10 -Long Ball Larry--57

11 -joffer--55

12 -higgins--54

13 -tuffnutt--52

14 -Getzlaf15--51

15 -DougB--48

16 -Kal El--47

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Posted (edited)

Alright been busy with Zoom meetings & bouncing around the city but I don’t want to belabor this. 

Greatest Men’s Tennis players

First off, everyone that was drafted is tennis royalty, International Hall of Fame Members (or will be shortly), and worthy of inclusion on any list of all-time greats. Somebody has to bring up the rear and it’s a subjective process.

My criteria were dominance in their own era, level of competition, and legacy to the game. I only considered Singles play with a heavy emphasis on major championships. Davis Cup play was taken into consideration; doubles/mixed doubles, not so much.

I have a great appreciation and respect for the history of the game. In any sport, but especially golf & tennis, I never view it through the prism of “well today’s athletes, training methods, and equipment are the best ever, so no way so-and-so could be a top level player.” It’s impossible to compare eras, and I think what is most fair is to think mainly about how they did against their peers. 

Pa’lante

Tier 4

16. (1 point) Arthur Ashe 3 GS, 3 Davis Cups

This is like giving myself a punch in the gut. I love Arthur, one of the classiest athletes of all time, in any sport. TO THIS DAY we haven’t had another person of color win a Grand Slam except Yannick Noah (French). Ashe won the 1968 US Open while still serving in the Army, the 1970 Australian Open, and 1975 at Wimbledon - the first and only black male to win those 3 GS events. He won 51 tournaments in the Open era, 33 ATP and 76 events overall. He was ranked #1 in 1968 & again in 1975 (though in the ATP computer rankings his apex was #2 in 1976.)

His mentor and sponsor as a youth was Dr Robert Johnson, the same man who guided Althea Gibson. He spent his last year of high school in St Louis because he wasn’t allowed to compete in segregated Richmond. While at UCLA he sought out Pancho Gonzales as a practice partner, whom he considered his idol.

After winning the NCAAs (singles & doubles) and twice losing the finals of the Australian Open to Emerson, he broke through by winning the first Open era US Open. To keep his Davis Cup eligibility he declined the $14,000 first prize money, instead receiving $20 for daily expenses. He was allowed to compete at Forest Hills - and avoid a tour of duty in Vietnam - because his brother took his place & served a second tour in county. The US won the Davis Cup the next five years and Ashe won 10/22 tournaments in his best season, going 72-10, 87.8%.

In 1970 Ashe became the first non-Australian to win down under since 1959, albeit against a weak field. He lost the 1971 final to Ken Roswell and suffered a devastating defeat to Ilie Nāstase at the 1972 US Open; he was up a break and had a break point to go up 4-1 in the 5th set. In 1975 he defeated Connors at the first All American final at Wimbledon in 1975. Strange match - Ashe was president of the ATP and Connors was suing the ATP for $10M and finals opponent for $5M (he later dropped the suit.) He was ATP Player of the Year for 1975.

1975 (97-18, 84.3%) was only the third time Ashe win 80.0% or more of his matches; in 1970 he was 52-12, 81.3%. In his 12 season Open era ATP career he went 658-207, 76.1%. His overall record was 818-260, 75.9%. Notable H2H: Rosewell 5-13, Laver 2-12, Borg 7-8.

In 2005, TENNIS Magazine put him in 30th place in their list of the 40 Greatest Players of the TENNIS Era (1965-2005.) Jack Kramer ranked him among the 21 greatest. The main stadium at the USTA Billie Jean King National Tennis Center was named in his honor when it opened in 1997.

Ashe had quadruple bypass heart surgery in December 1979, and a second heart surgery in 1983. In 1988 he was diagnosed with HIV, traced to a blood transfusion five years earlier. He and his wife wanted to keep his illness private to protect their daughter but in 1992 he was forced to public disclose because of a pending USA Today article. He spent the final year of his life as an advocate to raise awareness of the disease & safe sex practices.

Arthur Ashe was a civil rights champion his entire life, being arrested at several public protests, helped drive the South Africa apartheid narrative, and conducted himself in an uncommonly dignified manner. If we were ranking these athletes as humans he might be the 1.1 pick in the draft. They put a statue of him on Monument Avenue in his hometown of Richmond, VA - a place traditionally reserved for statues of key figures of the Confederacy. Great American hero, fondly remembered by all.

15. (2 points) Roy Emerson 12 Grand Slams 8 Davis Cups

I don’t blame anyone who might be thinking this is at best a typo and at worst a travesty. 12 GS, isn’t this guy in the top ten of a lot of lists? Not so much anymore, but he used to be. But sadly, he simply didn’t often beat the best players of his era. When the Open era began, he did poorly against his peers. I tried to overlook that and give him credit for being a great amateur, but I just don’t think he’s a better player than anyone ranked in front of him.

1325-380 (77.7%), 110 career titles. In the Open era, 445-199 (69.0%) with 18 titles; highest ranking #12. Played on 8 Davis Cup winners between 1959 and 1967. Revered, legendary sports figure in Australia. 6 (5 consecutive) Australian Opens, 2 French Opens, back to back Wimbledon’s, 2 US Opens. Last GS was 1967.

Beat Laver in the Australian and US Nationals in 1961. Lost 3 finals to Laver the following year when Rod won his first Grand Slam. After Laver turned pro, Emerson won 10 majors over the next 5 years.

ATP record: 178-111, 61.6%. Notable H2H as a pro: Ashe 1-11, Laver 1-14, Rosewell 1-5, Smith 1-4. NOTE: as an amateur he won 2 GS finals each VS Laver and Ashe.

16 GS doubles titles. Kramer: “Emerson was the best doubles player of all the moderns, very possibly the best forehand player of all time. He was so quick he could cover everything. He had the perfect doubles shots, a backhand that dipped over the net and came in at the server’s feet as he moved to net.”

• He is the only male player in history to win a career Grand Slam in singles and doubles.

• He is one of only eight male players in history to record a career Grand Slam.

• He was the first male player to win each major title at least twice in a career.

• 28 combined singles and doubles major titles is a record in men's tennis

Unfortunately my rankings don’t take doubles accomplishments into account. 

14. (3 points) Andy Murray 3 GS, 2 Gold Medals, 1 Davis Cup

The first UK man to win a grand slam event since Fred Perry in 1936, and the Scotland lad was a force in leading Great Britain to their first Davis Cup in 79 years, going 11-0 (max 8 singles, tying with McEnroe & Wilander.) Though much of Murray’s career will likely remain overshadowed by playing in an era with the three greatest players of all time, he eventually rose to #1 and has had a great career. Twice led the tour in wins (6 in 2009, 9 in 2016), ATP Player of the Year on 2016, for a long time considered the fourth member of the Big Four.

Big serve (130 mph) but inconsistent. Excellent return game, often preferred passive construction of points off long volleys. 

Has a record 5 runner up finishes at the Australian. Tied with Lendl for the most GS finals lost before winning (4.) One of three men to lose all four GS events (Lendl, Federer.) Overall he has 1 US Open, 2 Wimbledon titles and 8 GS runner up trophies. Five times finished the year #4, once each #3, #2,  and #1.

Match record: 673–196, 77.4% in Grand Slam and ATP Tour main draw matches, plus Davis Cup. He was 78-9, 90.1% in 2016, with four more seasons of 81% or better. His 46 tournament titles ranks 14th in the Open era.

Versus the Big 3, Andy has gone 11-14 v Federer (1-5 GS), 7-17 v Nadal (2-7 GS), and 11-25 v Djokovic (2-6 GS), and Joker has won 13 out of 16 since the 2013 Wimbledon final.

13. (4 points) Don Budge 6 GS & 4 Pro Slams

Tennis royalty. Won his Grand Slam events consecutively. Career record of 569-278 (67.1%) with 43 titles - including 14 consecutively. First to win the Grand Slam (1938), beat the great Ellsworth Vines before 17,712 at Madison Square Garden in his pro debut. Winning record against all the great pre-war pros: Vines, Tilden, Riggs, Perry. 6’1”, 160, shock of red hair, on the cover of Wheaties, Look, and Life. Powerful serve and forehand, and the most devastating backhand of the first half century. After repeating the Wimbledon and the US Open, added US Pro (1940, 1942), Wembley Pro (1939), and French Pro (1939.)

Tilden won the 1950 AP poll in a landslide for best player of the first half century, but he himself said Budge had a more complete game.

From a 1988 LA Times article on Budge:

Jack Kramer, a former world champion himself who still rates in the top four or five, was asked for an analysis.

“If everybody is 25 years old today, I can’t see anybody beating Budge,” said Kramer, who has made a closer study of his sport than probably any athlete. “Whenever you played him . . . he made us all change our game.

“The great tennis champions have been alike in many ways. They all had speed, heart and stamina under pressure. The difference is simply that Budge had the most equipment--the most complete offense, the most complete defense.”

Ellsworth Vines, also a former champion, is one who leans toward Tilden, whom Vines lists with Budge in his top two. But Gene Mako, Budge’s former Davis Cup doubles partner, is among the many who pick Budge in what will always be a futile if stimulating exercise--comparing champions of different eras.

Bad luck the war broke out at his peak. He lived a happy, quiet life in the Poconos until age 84, emerging for speaking engagements, clinics and annual appearances at GS finals. 

12. (5 points) Boris Becker 6 GS 2 Davis Cups

49 titles, 715-225, 76.1%, top six 11 times 1985-96 (2nd -3, twice each #3, #4, #5, #6), back to back Davis Cups 88-89, Germany’s first ever.. Notable H2H: Edberg 25-10, Lendl 10-11. Did poorly against a younger Agassi (4-10) and Sampras (7-12), 8-2 VS aging McEnroe and 7-3 Wilander.

3 Wimbledon titles, 2 Australian, 1 US Open. In 15 years at Wimbledon he reached 7 Finals, compiling a 71-12, 85.5%. Won his first GS at 17, the only unseeded player to win Wimbledon. 1989 ATP Player of the Year when he added his first US Open by beating Lendl in the Final, two months after an epic 5-set semifinal at Wimbledon. He won his third Wimbledon by beating Edberg in straight sets. He beat Jim Currier in the 1991 US Open final, and won his last major at the 1996 Australian, taking out Michael Chang.

Great serve and volley player, known for headlong stabs at the net, in later years he tried to develop into a baseliner with varying success. Never won on clay, though he did reach the SF at Roland Garros thrice. Always a threat on fast surfaces. Led a turbulent life away from the court, he seemed distracted at 22 but bounced back to have several more good seasons.

Das Wunderkind seemed to be in continuous decline after his explosion onto the world stage, but he was a consistent force for more than a decade. His celebrity in Germany was immense. 

Lifetime Davis Cup Singles record: 46-3. His 22 match winning streak is second only to Borg.   

Tennis magazine ranked Becker the 11th best male player of the period 1965–2005.

11. (6 points) Ken Rosewall 8 GS, 15 Pro Slams, 4 Davis Cups

133 Titles in a 28 year career (1951-78); missed 45 Grand Slams at the peak of his career (57-67) but dominated Pro tennis 1961-67.

Career doubles GS, never won Wimbledon Singles but lost in the a finals 1954, 1956, 1970, and 1974. 19-3 (14 straight) in Davis Cup Singles, was on the winning team in 1953, 1955, 1956, and 1973. 4 Australian titles (1953, 1955, 1971, 1972), 2 French (1953 & 1968), 2 US Opens (1956 & 1970.) First player to win an Open era GS without dropping a set (1971 AO.)

8/8 in French Pro finals, including 7 straight (1960-66), 5/8 at the Wembley Pro (4 straight 1960-63), 2-1 at the US Pro (1963 & 1965.) Win the Pro Grand Slam in 1963.

Pancho Gonzales dominated Rosewall 1957-60, winning 70-30 in circuit tours and 90-41 overall. Afterward Rosewall was #1 or co-#1 for the next 7 years, and beat him 31-19. In the Open era Rosewell led 14-8, making the final tally in Pancho’s favor, 117-86. In finals, it was the Aussie 8-7. In Pro Slams, 3-2.

“Even with my tremendous service advantage I can only just edge him out on grass or wood. On clay courts, where my service advantage is neutralised, he has the advantage over me.” Pancho said admiringly: “If he had my service no one would touch him.”

Laver turned pro after winning the calendar year Grand Slam, and the greatest rivalry tennis had ever known was born. They played H2H 130 times in 5-1/2 years before the Open era began. Their match record was 65-65, but in the early years it was 38-13 for Rosewall. In the Open era (1968-77) Laver, 4 years younger, held the edge 24-10. In Finals, it was Laver 36-20; Pro Slams, Rosewall 6-5; GS Finals, 1-1.

His longevity of competing at the highest level is unprecedented. He won 26 Amateur events 1951-56, 64 Pro events 1957-67. He played 7 Pro Tours 1957-64 besides Jack Kramer’s circuit and finished first each time. Won 43 Open era tournaments even though he was 33 when it began. 83.41% in Grand Slam match play, 88.89% at the French. His Wimbledon match percentage is 81.0% despite never winning in 11 attempts. He lost two GS Finals at 40, and at age 43 and 44 he was a semifinalist and quarter finalist at the Australian.

Not a powerful player, accurate but soft serve, he had great coverage, ran very fast and anticipated where his opponents would hit the ball. Known for his great one-handed backhand. Nicknamed “Muscles” because he didn’t have any. His wife of 63 years died on April 27 of this year. Now 85, he is a living treasure in his homeland.

Edited by BobbyLayne
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For those that are wondering why I felt I had no way to judge, I'll simply submit the other judging submissions as those that I wanted to give, but really couldn't in the end. It's not for laziness. It's for clarity of mind and integrity that I had to drop. I had no way of comparing hockey or secondaries across eras. I'm not sure how to even begin an intelligent debate about that. I thought I'd be doing everybody a disservice by incompetence. And statistical performance changes given the era. Believe me, I put tons of thought into what I would do. Sorry to have abandoned that aspect of it. My apologies again.

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Here are your super official NBA-CENTERS Category Rankings

Similar to the guards, my objective criteria included rings, MVPs, All-NBA's, All-D's, DPOY, All-star games and advanced stats.   I most heavily weighted MVP's, All-NBA selections and advanced stats.  All-star rankings were given minor consideration, but I gave defensive awards a bit more weight with the centers to help differentiate as the bottom tiers were really a quagmire.

***Note, I had not been using ABA stats and awards at all and this GREATLY effects one player in this ranking.  I'm sorry, but I had done the guards and was 80% done with the centers when I realized what an effect it would have and the category is named "NBA Centers".

As far as honorable mentions that would have ranked at least 15 or above: Dwight Howard (would have ranked #12), Dikembe Mutombo (#14), Alonzo Mourning & Bill Walton (either at #15)

Without further ado (in 4 tiers from worst to first)...

Tier 4 - each had major detractions and would have been bumped had my honorable mentions been chosen instead

#16 (1 pt) - Artis Gilmore - This is the guy who got screwed by the majority of his accomplishments being in the ABA.  He just didn't do much by the time he was in the NBA and is really "just a guy" when you take out his ABA MVP and other accolades and stats.

#15 (2 pts) - Robert Parish - Even though I am a Celtics fan, I give this guy less credit than most.  He lasted and played a really long time, won 4 rings and compiled some big career stats, but he isn't much more than an all-star level guy at his best and had few other individual accolades.  Only 2 all-NBA selections, no first teams, no hints of an MVP and no all-Defensive teams.  Just not a lot there other than longevity and this is an all-time greats list.

#14 (3 pts) - Wes Unseld - His one MVP and one ring got him this high, because he really didn't do much else in his career (only one all-NBA selection).  His advanced stats are lower than the two guys below him and all of my honorable mentions.  He is basically the NBA version of Vanilla Ice, 2 hits and that's it...but everybody knows the lyrics to Ice, Ice Baby, so he's got that going for him, which is nice.

Tier 3 - These guys are great, but....

#13 (4 pts) - Bob McAdoo - He has two rings and an MVP and 2 all-NBA selections and his advanced stats were good.  He was a great scorer early on in his career and led the league for 3 years straight.  However, the lack of all-NBA teams, only making 5 all-star teams and no all-defensive teams makes him look unfavorable in comparison to his contemporaries.  He missed a lot of games in his 30's from injury and got traded a lot.  He's good and was worthy to be drafted here but he just doesn't have enough to move above this spot.

#12 (5 pts) - Dave Cowens - His accolades are almost identical to McAdoo, but with more all-star games and 3 all-D selections.  His advanced stats weren't as good, but it wasn't enough to flip spots.  He also was a lifelong Celtic until a two year retirement at age 31 and then a 40 game return at age 34 with the Bucks and then retirement for good.

#11 (6 pts) - George Mikan - He was the best player during his era and won 5 rings.  Unfortunately, it was all before the Civil War.  OK, not quite that far back, but he played only 7 seasons and retired for good in 1956 (the first year the MVP award was issued).  He was dominant, making 6 all-NBA 1st teams in his first six years but the talent pool was very weak.  He is still a good selection just based on the fact that he would have likely won several MVPs and was really the first star of the NBA.

#10 (7 pts) - Patrick Ewing - He had a great, long career.  But never won MVP, never won a ring and never won DPOY.  His longevity was there (11 all-star games) and he was 6 time all-NBA and 3 time all-Defensive.  There is a lot of substance to his career, he just never reached the top.

#9 (8 pts) - Willis Reed - The Captain was a 2 time champion, an MVP and had a good run of 7 straight all-star games.  He played in an earlier era with incomplete stats, so his advanced stats look good, but aren't really the full picture.  He was a great part of basketball history, but didn't have as many all-NBAs and defensive accolades as all of the guys in the next tier.

Tier 2 - Legit superstars and all-time NBA greats

#8 (9 pts) - Moses Malone - I really, really wanted to put him higher, but his advanced stats were a real detriment to that effort.  His game started and ended with rebounding, including his offense.  But 3 MVP's is no joke.  That is rare air in the likes of Bird and Magic.  However, having only 1 ring also kept him down.  All in all, he belongs in this tier as the king of offensive rebounding and tenacity, but I can't put him any higher.

#7 (10 pts) - David Robinson - The Admiral was one of the best in an era with a lot of talent at the position.  He could do everything well.  He won two rings at the end of his career (thanks to another player to be mentioned soon), but had an MVP and a DPOY award under his belt by then.  His career started late after serving in the Navy for two years, but he was named ROY at age 24 and took off from there with 10 All-NBA selections and 8 All-defensive teams.

#6 (11 pts) - Hakeem Olajuwon - The Dream was the greatest player in the NBA while MJ played baseball, winning two rings and an MVP in that time.  He also had an extinguished and long career and may be the best defensive player on this list with 2 DPOY awards and 9 all-defensive selections.  However, he was a true 2-way player and outplayed his contemporaries in the same era as Robinson and Ewing.

#5 (12 pts) - Shaquille O'Neal - The Diesel was a force to be reckoned with throughout his long and successful career.  He is still the most physically dominant player the world has ever seen at 7-1 and pushing 300 lbs throughout his career.  4 rings, an MVP and 14 all-NBA teams make him one of the most decorated as well.  On top of all that, I think he is hilarious and love his work on TNT's broadcasts. 

#4 (13 pts) - Tim Duncan - let the controversy begin.  First of all, is he even a center?  It is debatable, but my Magic 8 ball said "Sings point to yes" so we will run with it.  However, I do believe he had a slight advantage being considered a forward for a time because that allowed for more spots on All-NBA teams, All-star games and All-Defensive teams.  I wasn't going to put anyone above the next tier guys anyway and even if I discount 25% of his accolades, he still finishes over Shaq.  That aside, let me point out some things about one of my all time favorite NBA players.  He has 5 rings and 15 each of all-NBA teams, all-star teams and all-defensive teams.  His longevity of success is second to none in the history of the league and he was dominant for parts of 3 decades.  And for the record (although I'm not judging the category) I have him as the #3 forward.

Tier 1 - the MVP collectors

#3 (14 pts) - Bill Russell - Eleven. Freaking. Rings.  All as his team's best player (although they were very good teams).  He made the all-star game every season but his last and had 11 all-NBA selections.  He won five MVPs and would have likely added a few DPOYs had the award existed during his career.   His career is unparalleled in its success.  He didn't have the scoring stats, but everything else was done at an elite level.

#2 (15 pts) - Wilt Chamberlin - Was the most dominant physical presence the world had seen prior to Shaq.  He controlled the paint and they changed some rules simply because of him.  He could be a bit of a red ### which is why he was traded a couple of times and never had the team success of his rival and he only won two rings.  However, his statistical achievements will never be equaled.  100 point game, averaged 50 ppg for a season, 22 rebounds/game for his career and even led the league in assists for a year, just because he could.  He also may hold the record for women bagged, but that is unofficial.

#1 (16 pts) - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (Lew Alcindor) - Cap was the most unstoppable scorer of all time and has the record to prove it.  He also has six rings and a league record six MVPs and 19 all-star games.  I still have him as my #2 all time over LeBron.  He was also a great defender with 11 all-defensive selections and is 3rd all-time in blocks.  He started his career with a ring and was still a force at age 40 when he won his sixth and started every playoff game, playing almost 30 minutes per game.  His ranking wasn't as much of a no-brainer as with MJ and the guards, but I really never doubted that I would put him on top of this list.

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Standings After Jayrod's rankings of NBA Centers

 

jwb--87

Ilov80s--79

AAABatteries--78

otb_lifer--77

Gally--75

wikkidpissah--73

Jagov--73

higgins--70

timschochet--67

joffer--66

Zow--63

Long Ball Larry--58

tuffnutt--57

Kal El--57

DougB--55

Getzlaf15--53

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11 minutes ago, Jayrod said:

Here are your super official NBA-CENTERS Category Rankings

Pitch perfect all the way through, good job brother 

:thumbup:

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6 hours ago, Zow said:

Damn, almost went with Nash over Wade. Both were value there but should have pulled the trigger. 

To be fair, Nash was the toughest guy for me to rank so far in either of my categories.   I had him as high as 6 and as low as 11 during multiple tweakings.  I just re-read my post and am happy with where I put him.

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JUDGING ANNOUNCEMENT - GREATEST FEMALE SWIMMER (59) - RANKINGS - POST 1 OF 3

When I started this process, I quickly grabbed all of the names from the sheet, sorted them alphabetically and started from there. The place in which they were selected and the drafter who selected them did NOT factor into my evaluation. 

None of these ladies are palookas. Is it even possible for a female to be a palooka?? They were all selected for a reason in this competition. They would all swim circles around us. Having spent more time on women's swimming these past days than a grown man ever should, I have a deep respect for what all of these gals have accomplished. 

Having said that, some of my rankings may displease you. To which I say grow a pair! 

I will do this in 3 groups. Tim has already been consulted regarding the evaluation of my own selection in this category. She will be included in the rankings that follow.

CLUSTER 3 - 16 thru 11 - THE GOOD

16 (1 pt) - DIANA NYAD

  • I was enthusiastic about this pick during the draft. However, as the judging process unfolded, it became more and more clear to me that she is a novelty that really should not have been selected in this competition. She had some impressive long swims in the mid 1970s, a failed attempt at Cuba/Key West in 1978 and then a successful Bahamas/Florida swim. After that she went off and did other stuff for about 30 years. Then came her “comeback” at an advanced age. 5 attempts at Cuba/Key West. Whether she actually did it in attempt 5 is still up for debate. More of a writer, journalist and speaker than a swimmer. Interesting character, but not top 16 material in this contest, sorry.

15 (2 pts) - AMANDA BEARD

  • Came out as the weakest rated pool swimmer in the bunch. Active for 14 years, she only participated in 11 big tournaments. Won 21 medals along the way but only 5 gold. Was never World Swimmer of the Year. Did set 2 WRs during her career but all of the others ahead of her set more. Went for modeling and advertising after her career.

14 (3 pts) - DARA TORRES

  • Dara gets credit for length of career, her comebacks after years of dormancy & childbirth and the number of Olympic Games that she appeared in. After that, things get a bit shaky. Yes, she did pick up 12 medals during her 5 trips to the Olympics but only 4 of them were for individual events. None of those individual medals were gold. The same picture can be seen with her WC and other tourney hauls. Never World Swimmer of the Year. Did break 6 WRs but 3 were very early in her career and the other 3 came in team relay events where she was not even the strongest leg. For a career that spanned 24 years and 5 Olympics, her trophy cabinet is not that impressive. Others with much less pool time have done quite better.

13 (4 pts) - TRISCHA ZORN

  • Appeared in 7 consecutive Paralympic Games and picked up 55 medals (41G, 9S, 5B) in the process. She also set at least 8 WRs during her career and remains the holder of 1 record that she set 15 years ago. She did her thing, her way in a sightless world for 24 years. Grit and determination personified.

12 (5 pts) - KRISTIN OTTO

  • One of the shortest swimming careers of all gals drafted. She picked up a lot of prizes at the 7 large international tournaments she participated in. 31 total medals of which 25 were gold. Had the misfortune of missing the 1984 Olympics due to boycott. She was a 3 time winner of World Swimmer of the Year award but was stripped of those titles later. Sort of like Lance Armstrong Tour victories. The East German doping stuff didn’t help her. Without it, she would have been higher. Not top 5 though.

11 (6 pts) - GERTRUDE EDERLE

  • The most antique of our selections, Gerdy starting splashing around in the pool as well as in open water right after WW1. She won 3 medals (1G, 2B) at her only Olympics in 1924. In her day, she broke WRs in 5 different events! Post Olympics she did the Battery Park to Sandy Hook swim in 1925. Then became the first lady to swim the English Channel in 1926 in her 2nd attempt. Member of the Swimming HOF. As brave and daring as the come, especially for her time. Went deaf in the early 1940s and spent to the rest of her days teaching deaf children to swim.
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I'll probably say this again but big thank you to the judges - you guys are doing a great job.

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14 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I'll probably say this again but big thank you to the judges - you guys are doing a great job.

I was thinking yesterday that judging is such a thankless job.  Guess it’s not completely thankless.  More thanks from this observer to the draft - the write-ups have (mostly) been fabulous.

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2 minutes ago, krista4 said:

I was thinking yesterday that judging is such a thankless job.  Guess it’s not completely thankless.  More thanks from this observer to the draft - the write-ups have (mostly) been fabulous.

Yes, I'm blown away by most of the writeups - and I'm learning a lot.  Especially on areas where my knowledge is lacking (hockey, horse racing and some others)

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8 hours ago, Jayrod said:

#11 (6 pts) - George Mikan - He was the best player during his era and won 5 rings.  Unfortunately, it was all before the Civil War.  OK, not quite that far back, but he played only 7 seasons and retired for good in 1956 (the first year the MVP award was issued).  He was dominant, making 6 all-NBA 1st teams in his first six years but the talent pool was very weak.  He is still a good selection just based on the fact that he would have likely won several MVPs and was really the first star of the NBA.

 

:lmao:

Right about where I thought he'd go. 

Great rankings - the top 6 guys are just brutal to rank. 

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JUDGING ANNOUNCEMENT - GREATEST FEMALE SWIMMER (59) - RANKINGS - POST 2 OF 3

CLUSTER 2 - 10 thru 6 - THE VERY GOOD

10 (7 pts) - DEBBIE MEYER

  • The top swimmer of her time but only a 4 year career. She was the Queen of the Hill during a low period in the sport of swimming. If we were doing this in 1972, she would be near the top. Thing is, many better swimmers came after her. Broke 15 WRs in her time and was World Swimmer of the Year 3 times. Member of the Swimming HOF. Only participated in 1 large tournament outside of the Olympics. Taught swimming since the early 1970s.

9 (8 pts) - MARY MEAGHER

  • Her haul of 22 medals (13G, 6S, 3B) at large international tournaments pushes her ahead of Meyer. She would have probably had more in the trophy case if there was no Olympic boycott in 1980. World Swimmer of the Year 2 times. Member of the Swimming HOF. Broke 7 WRs during her time in the water. Doesn’t appear to have done much in/for the swimming world since her retirement in 1988. She does have a street named after her in Kentucky though.. 

8 (9 pts) - TRACY CAULKINS

  • Like Mary above, she also suffered from the 1980 boycott and missed the 1980 Olympics. Still, 23 medals (18G, 4S, 1B) at 6 large international tournaments is nothing to sneeze at. World Swimmer of the Year once. Broke 6 WRs during her career. Member of the Swimming HOF. Not active in swimming after her career

7 (10 pts) - JANET EVANS

  • Very impressive 9 year career. 26 medals (21G, 4S, 1B) in 10 large international tournaments. World Swimmer of the Year winner 3 times. Broke 7 WRs and is a member of the Swimming Hall of Fame. Active post career in various Olympic committee activities. She was better than most but not as good as 6 others.

6 (11 pts) - DAWN FRASER

  • Almost made the top 5. Only the strength of the gals ahead of her prevented that. No World Championship achievements as they were not yet held in her time. She did pick up 8 medals (4G, 4S) at 3 Olympic Games and 7 medals (6G, 1S) at 2 Commonwealth Games. Broke 19 WRs during her career and is a member of the Swimming HOF. One of only 2 swimmers selected to be awarded the Olympic Order. Did some swim coaching and some politics after her career. Sort of a rebel in her day as well as a bit of a racist in her old age.

 

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Meyer was good value for whoever drafted her. 

 

Oh, that was the leader, jwb. Guess he's in first for a reason.

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JUDGING ANNOUNCEMENT - GREATEST FEMALE SWIMMER (59) - RANKINGS - POST 3 OF 3

CLUSTER 1 - 5 thru 1 - THE GREATEST

5 (12 pts) - KRISZTINA EGERSZEGI

  • The “weakest” of the top 5. Only was able to break 2 WRs during her career. Still, 25 medals (16G, 8S, 1B) in 10 large international tournaments during her career is more than most athletes can even dream of. World Swimmer of the Year winner 3 times. 4 times European Swimmer of the Year winner. Member of the Swimming HOF. She still holds the record with 5 individual Olympic gold medals as the most of any female swimmer in history. One of only 2 swimmers selected to be awarded the Olympic Order. Active in the Hungarian Olympic Swimming organization. She would probably win the cutest swimmer selected but we ain’t doing that category.

4 (13 pts) - NATALIE COUGHLIN

  • Impressive, solid, consistent 14 year career during which she scored 60 medals (25G, 22S, 13B) at 15 large international tournaments. Broke a WR 13 times. Was World Swimmer of the Year once. Strangely not a member of the Swimming Hall of Fame. Maybe just a matter of time? Like many before her, went into media stuff after her career. She just missed the podium because she needs to be compared to the 3 above her.

3 (14 pts) - JENNY THOMPSON

  • If I were doing these rankings 4 years ago, she would have probably been the number 1. Very long and impressive career. Buckets and buckets of prizes! 81 total medals (53G, 20S, 8B) at 20 large international tournament. World Swimmer of the Year once. Member of the Swimming HOF. She broke 13 WRs during her time in the pool. If there was a big tourney during her career, she was probably there and winning something.

2 (15 pts) - KATINKA HOSSZU

  • Swimming for 16 years and still going. She flirted with the top position a few times during my rankings but at the end of the day, she settled in firmly here. Her beast mode in the medley events helped a lot. She has set 20 WRs, most of all gals in this competition. She is the current holder of 4 WRs. Her career medal haul is HUGE. 93 total medals (63G, 19S, 11B) won in 22 large international tournaments. Like Jenny above, if there was a big tourney during her career, she was probably there and winning something. She was never World Swimmer of the Year but she was active when our number 1 was winning all of those awards. She was European Swimmer of the Year 4 times and FINA Swimmer of the Year 4 times. She is not in the Swimming HOF but that is just a matter of time.

1 (16 pts) - KATIE LEDECKY

  • Numero Uno. Only way I could see her dropping is if she retired right now and Katinka put in another good year or 2. She looks to have this firmly in her control until some (yet to be born?) swimmer comes along. 8 years active and still going. Already ahead of all others in just about everything at this stage in her career. A free style monster. 5 times World Swimmer of the Year. She has broken 14 WRs and is the current holder of 3 WRs. 34 medals (28G, 5S, 1B) in just 8 large international tournaments is quite impressive. Like Katinka above, it is just a matter of time until she gets into the Swimming HOF.
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JUDGING ANNOUNCEMENT - GREATEST FEMALE SWIMMER (59) - CODA

Judging, Writing and Reporting for this category is now complete. Time to shift my focus to Womens Track and Field Athletes.

 

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Standings after Jagov's rankings of Women's Swimmimg

 

jwb--94

AAABatteries--90

Gally--84

higgins--84

otb_lifer--82

Ilov80s--80

wikkidpissah--79

Jagov--77

timschochet--77

Long Ball Larry--73

tuffnutt--73

joffer--69

DougB--66

Getzlaf15--66

Zow--65

Kal El--65

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25 minutes ago, Zow said:

Meyer was good value for whoever drafted her. 

Oh, that was the leader, jwb. Guess he's in first for a reason.

heh, round 59, off an internet list, in a sport I know ZERO about. 98 Yankees she wasn't. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AAABatteries said:

I'll probably say this again but big thank you to the judges - you guys are doing a great job.

 

1 hour ago, krista4 said:

I was thinking yesterday that judging is such a thankless job.  Guess it’s not completely thankless.  More thanks from this observer to the draft - the write-ups have (mostly) been fabulous.

I appreciate this!   This is my first draft ever, so not 100% sure on what to expect.   The draft itself was very challenging.   Judging has been a new set of challenges, and so far, I'm happy i've found some kind of method, while not perfect, that makes some kind of sense.   It's been cool to go through the process of a category and get to the point where you feel comfortable about the final results and a much deeper appreciation for that cat.

MLB OF is next on my list.  Now off to find a way to rank Oscar Charleston without getting crucified for consulting Bill James.   :D:lmao::scared:

Edited by Getzlaf15
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16 minutes ago, jwb said:

heh, round 59, off an internet list, in a sport I know ZERO about. 98 Yankees she wasn't. 

 

Yeah I knew little to nothing either after Ledecky. I think you and I had the last two picks. I was between Meyers and Beard. I chose poorly. 

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1 minute ago, Getzlaf15 said:

 

I appreciate this!   This is my first draft ever, so not 100% sure on what to expect.   The draft itself was very challenging.   Judging has been a new set of challenges, and so far, I'm happy i've found some kind of method, while not perfect, that makes some kind of sense.   It's been cool to go through the process of a category and get to the point where you feel comfortable about the final results and a much deeper appreciation for that cat.

MLB OF is next on my list.  Now off to find a way to rank Oscar Charleston without getting crucified for consulting Bill James.   :D:lmao::scared:

Yes, why would you give at least some consideration to the guy who has spent more time crunching the numbers than anybody else? :lmao: 

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53 minutes ago, Jagov said:

JUDGING ANNOUNCEMENT - GREATEST FEMALE SWIMMER (59) - RANKINGS - POST 3 OF 3

CLUSTER 1 - 5 thru 1 - THE GREATEST

5 (12 pts) - KRISZTINA EGERSZEGI

  • The “weakest” of the top 5. Only was able to break 2 WRs during her career. Still, 25 medals (16G, 8S, 1B) in 10 large international tournaments during her career is more than most athletes can even dream of. World Swimmer of the Year winner 3 times. 4 times European Swimmer of the Year winner. Member of the Swimming HOF. She still holds the record with 5 individual Olympic gold medals as the most of any female swimmer in history. One of only 2 swimmers selected to be awarded the Olympic Order. Active in the Hungarian Olympic Swimming organization. She would probably win the cutest swimmer selected but we ain’t doing that category.

4 (13 pts) - NATALIE COUGHLIN

  • Impressive, solid, consistent 14 year career during which she scored 60 medals (25G, 22S, 13B) at 15 large international tournaments. Broke a WR 13 times. Was World Swimmer of the Year once. Strangely not a member of the Swimming Hall of Fame. Maybe just a matter of time? Like many before her, went into media stuff after her career. She just missed the podium because she needs to be compared to the 3 above her.

3 (14 pts) - JENNY THOMPSON

  • If I were doing these rankings 4 years ago, she would have probably been the number 1. Very long and impressive career. Buckets and buckets of prizes! 81 total medals (53G, 20S, 8B) at 20 large international tournament. World Swimmer of the Year once. Member of the Swimming HOF. She broke 13 WRs during her time in the pool. If there was a big tourney during her career, she was probably there and winning something.

2 (15 pts) - KATINKA HOSSZU

  • Swimming for 16 years and still going. She flirted with the top position a few times during my rankings but at the end of the day, she settled in firmly here. Her beast mode in the medley events helped a lot. She has set 20 WRs, most of all gals in this competition. She is the current holder of 4 WRs. Her career medal haul is HUGE. 93 total medals (63G, 19S, 11B) won in 22 large international tournaments. Like Jenny above, if there was a big tourney during her career, she was probably there and winning something. She was never World Swimmer of the Year but she was active when our number 1 was winning all of those awards. She was European Swimmer of the Year 4 times and FINA Swimmer of the Year 4 times. She is not in the Swimming HOF but that is just a matter of time.

1 (16 pts) - KATIE LEDECKY

  • Numero Uno. Only way I could see her dropping is if she retired right now and Katinka put in another good year or 2. She looks to have this firmly in her control until some (yet to be born?) swimmer comes along. 8 years active and still going. Already ahead of all others in just about everything at this stage in her career. A free style monster. 5 times World Swimmer of the Year. She has broken 14 WRs and is the current holder of 3 WRs. 34 medals (28G, 5S, 1B) in just 8 large international tournaments is quite impressive. Like Katinka above, it is just a matter of time until she gets into the Swimming HOF.

Brilliant analysis!

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31 minutes ago, Getzlaf15 said:

 

I appreciate this!   This is my first draft ever, so not 100% sure on what to expect.   The draft itself was very challenging.   Judging has been a new set of challenges, and so far, I'm happy i've found some kind of method, while not perfect, that makes some kind of sense.   It's been cool to go through the process of a category and get to the point where you feel comfortable about the final results and a much deeper appreciation for that cat.

MLB OF is next on my list.  Now off to find a way to rank Oscar Charleston without getting crucified for consulting Bill James.   :D:lmao::scared:

Just put him number 1 and don't worry about it any further

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Current Judge Rankings

1. Jagov

2. BobbyLayne

3. Getzlaf

4.  scooby

5. Zow

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DEAD TO ME. Jayrod

 

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Nice write ups, even though it shows how bad I am at drafting all-timers.

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10 minutes ago, Kal El said:

Nice write ups, even though it shows how bad I am at drafting all-timers.

although it was self-inflicted, you did have a pretty severe handicap.

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13 minutes ago, Kal El said:

Nice write ups, even though it shows how bad I am at drafting all-timers.

Meh, I'm tied with you and not terribly worried. Gotta remember we will have some top guys. We've only hit one category so far where I expected to have a top 3. 

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34 minutes ago, Long Ball Larry said:

Current Judge Rankings

1. Jagov

2. BobbyLayne

3. Getzlaf

4.  scooby

5. Zow

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DEAD TO ME. Jayrod

 

5th after I rewarded heavily your Otto Graham pick?? 

 

Thankless, thankless job. 

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3 minutes ago, Zow said:

5th after I rewarded heavily your Otto Graham pick?? 

 

Thankless, thankless job. 

good point.  i forgot about that.  was just thinking about the baseball rankings.

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