2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (2 Viewers)

BobbyLayne said:

Greatest Men’s Tennis players

Tier 3

10. (7 points) Andre Agassi 8 GS, 3 Davis Cups, Olympic Gold medal

870–274 (76.0%), 60 ATP Titles (10th in Open era tennis.)  2nd player after Laver to win an Open era career GS, 1 of 5. 1st to win 4 Australians, since surpassed by Novak and Roger. 1st to win Golden Slam (matched by Nadal.) Only man to win the Super Slam (ATP Tour WC.) 1st male to win a GS on 3 surfaces (hard, clay, grass.) 17 ATP Masters Series 1000 events, 4th behind the Big Three. Last American to win at Roland Garros (1999) and Sydney (2003.) World #1 in 1995 and 1999. Sixth all-time in ATP earnings, behind only the Big Four and Sampras.

Notable Rivalries:

Sampras (14-20); the best server of all time versus the best returner of all time. Ranked #12, Pete beat Andre (#4) in straight sets at the 1990 US Open. Agassi beat Sampras in straight sets at the 1992 French. Great 5-set match at the 1993 quarters at Wimbledon. Agassi won 3 of 5 finals in 1995 when they won 3/4 of the GS. After his 3 year slump, Agassi regained #1 in 1999, losing to Sampras at Wimbledon but prevailing at the French and US Opens. Andre won a memorable 5-setter at the 2000 Australian semis. At the 2001 US Open quarters, Pete won in four sets, a great match with no service breaks in 52 games: 6-7 (7), 7-6 (2), 7-6 (2), 7-6 (5). Their last meeting was at the 2002 US Open finals, with Sampras winning his 14th and last GS. One of the best rivalries of the Open era.

Michael Chang (15-7) was a defensive minded baseliner, and their entertaining matches often featured long rallies. Best match was the 5-setter at the 1994 US Open, with Andre coming out on top in a high quality match. Chang won in straight sets at the 1996 Australian and US Opens. Shockingly, Agassi admitted in his biography he lost the former on purpose because he didn’t want to face Becker in the Finals.

Becker (10-4) win their first three meetings, Agassi 10 of the last 11. In memorable 1995 semi-finals, Boris won in 4 sets at Wimbledon and Andre prevailed in 4 sets at Flushing Meadow.

Patrick Rafter (10-5) Andre led 8-2 on his best surface, hard courts, Patrick won their only match on clay, and they split 4 matches at Wimbledon. The highlight was a pair of 5 set matches in 2000 and 2001.

Federer (3-8) Roger, 11 years younger, lost the first three times he played Andre, then never again. Roger won a (2-day) 5-set quarterfinal at the 2004 US Open, and the 4 set 2005 US Open finals, Agassi’s last GS final.

Agassi lost his first 6 to Lendl, including 2 US Open semis, the won their last 2. Won his last 5 matches with Edberg (6-3.)

I didn’t care for young, wig-wearing, manufactured-rebel-image Andre. I didn’t know he was a meth head until his biography came out. But reinvigorated, bald Andre with the legendary training regimen and clean lifestyle was fantastic.

He skipped the Australian his first 8 years, but it became his best event, including a 3-year run (2001-2003) in his 30s, a record 26-match win streak, 48-5 overall. He declined 3 Wimbledon invitations at age 18-20 - BECAUSE HE DIDN’T WANT TO WEAR ALL WHITE - but broke through with his first GS in 1992 after 3 GS finals losses. He was the first unseeded player to win the US Open (1994.) Completed the career GS at the 1999 French, cemented his legacy with a second US Open and re-ascension to #1 that fall. Uber talented teenager who at times lacked focus, he not only revamped his bratty image but made an authentic transformation into to a true role model and humanitarian. From 1999-2005, one of the finest grinders ever seen, winning through fitness, grit, crafty point construction and sheer force of will.

Tied for 6th all-time in GS wins, 5th in GS matches won. Outside the top ten in GS winning %. Legendary 20 year run, but lacks the consistency that would have pushed him higher. Great athlete and one of my favorite players.

9. (8 points) Jimmy Connors 8 GS

Record 109 singles titles, #1 160 consecutive weeks (1974-77) and 268 weeks overall. The former was the record for 30+ years until Federer came along. YE top ten 16 straight years (1973-88.) SF or better at 14 of his 22 US Open appearances; never lost before the semi-finals 1974-85, winning on five occasions (1974 on grass, 1976 on clay and in 1978, 1982-83 on hard courts.) First man since Bill Tilden in the 20s with 5 straight US Open finals, first player with 3 US Open wins since Fred Perry in the 30s. One of six players to win 3 GS events in a season (Laver 1969, Mats Wilander 1988, Federer 2004, 2006-07, Nadal 2010 and Djokovic in 2011 & 2015.) Still holds the records for most grass-court match wins at Wimbledon (107) and US Open match wins (98.) Won his first tournament in 1972, his last in 1989, record 1274 matches overall (Fed is closing in with 1242.) Went 99-4 (96.1%) in 1974, with 15 tournament wins and 3 GS (he was barred from the French Open over ATP litigation.)

Won 8 of his first 12 VS Borg (8-15 overall) and 12/20 starting out against McEnroe (14-20.) Connors won a 4th of July Wimbledon final over Johnny Mac over 5 sets in 1982, one of 3 wins in 9 GS matches against him.

Connors also had significant rivalries against Nastase, early in his career, and later with Ivan Lendl. “I had true rivalries,” said Connors. “Not only did I want to beat my opponent, but I didn't want to let him up, either. I had a rivalry with Mac, Lendl, Borg. Everybody knew there was tension between us, on court and off. That's what's really ingrained in my mind: 'This is real. This isn't a soft rivalry.' There were no hugs and kisses.”

Troubled by a deteriorated left wrist in 1990, he dropped to No. 936 in the FedEx ATP Rankings before undergoing surgery. He returned in 1991 to play 14 tournaments, climaxing in his 14th US Open semi-final, where he celebrated his 39th birthday with a tumultuous fourth-round victory over Aaron Krickstein, soaring from 2-5 in the fifth set to win 3-6, 7-6(8), 1-6, 6-3, 7-6(4). Connors, who won 10 of 11 matches on his birthday at the US Open, famously remarked at 6-6 in the decider, “This is what they paid for. This is what they want.” He then continued his magical run by battling back from a set and a break down against Paul Haarhuis, but lost to Jim Courier, becoming the oldest semi-finalist since 39-year-old Ken Rosewall lost the title match to none other than Connors himself 17 years before. He was subsequently named as the ATP Comeback Player of the Year for 1991.

“If you took the 10 greatest moments or points in US Open history, six or seven of them would be his, and three or four would be at the 1991 Open,” said McEnroe. Highlights of the Krickstein match are reshown each year at Flushing Meadows, venue of the US Open, and it cemented Connors’ reputation as the people’s champion in New York.

McEnroe on Connors
"One of the things I respected about Connors was that one second he would be spewing a four-letter word, the next second he would do something that had people falling off the aisles. Yet he never seemed to lose his concentration."

Connors on Connors
"Tennis was never work for me; tennis was fun. And the tougher the battle, and the longer the match, the more fun I had."

Journalist Graeme Agars on Connors
Connors was the ultimate showman on court, delivering not only a fierce, never-give-an-inch playing performance, but he also knew better than most how to get a crowd involved in a match and how to perform on ‘stage’.

One of the most entertaining players the game has ever known. Weak forehand, average service game, not known for coming to the net often, but one of best two-handed backhands ever seen. Smaller than most of his rivals, bigger heart than anyone, great tactician. Kind of jerky, but that’s part of the charm with Jimbo.

The longevity and competitiveness are impressive, but he never won the French (SF 4 times) and only played the Australian twice. He also rather selfishly (& needlessly IMO) fought with the ATP, skipping Roland Garros four more years after his 1974 ban, and often took the fall series and YE championships off. Only played one Davis Cup & he was rude af to everyone (stayed at different hotel, wouldn’t practice or come to team dinners, et al.) He was a PITA for everyone - other players, coaches, hapless linesmen, tour officials, vulgar beyond belief, and fed off the energy of the crowd - negative or positive. Like many who adopted NYC as their town, he did it his way.

8. (9 points) John McEnroe 7 GS, 5 Davis Cups

YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS. BEHIND LENDL? ARE YOU MAD?

77 Singles titles, 78 doubles (Open era record for combined titles but WDGAF.) 3-time ATP player of the Year 1981, 1983, 1984. 4 US Open and 3 Wimbledon titles, excelled at YE culmination events with a record 8 titles (+ a record 7 nobody cares doubles.) 170 overall weeks at #1, 7th best (in ascending order: Nadal, Lendl, Connors, Djokovic, Sampras, Federer.) Career 881–198 (81.6%), won all of his majors 1979-84, twice achieving a double. His 1984 season of 82-3 (96.4%) remains the ATP record.

Queens bred, true New Yorker. One of the best tennis commentators of all time. As an 18 year old amateur he got into the 1977 Wimbledon through the qualifier tournament, and made it all the way to the Semis before losing to Connors. It remains the best performance by an amateur or a qualifier in Open era GS tennis. Turning pro in late 1978, he was a semifinalist at the US Open, then win five YE events, winning the Masters Grand Prix with a straight sets win over Ashe. He finished the year #4.

For the next four years he battled Borg for supremacy. At 20 in 1979, he was the youngest US Open champion since Pancho Gonzales. He beat Borg at the WTC Finals, his 10th Singles title of the Year (now #3.)

In 1980 Borg won his 5th straight Wimbledon in a 5 set marathon over McEnroe that many considered the best Wimbledon finals on record. He beat Björn in 5 sets at the US Open, and finished the year #2.

The next year the British tabloids dubbed him “Superbrat” after several match tirades. On July 4, he ended Borg’s 41-match winning streak on grass  McEnroe again beat Borg in 4 sets at the US Open, his 3rd straight at Flushing Meadow. Named AP Athlete of the Year, the first since Budge in 1938, he would remain year end #1 through 1984.

1982-83 saw several finals and more tour success, but only his 4th straight final at the ‘83 Wimbledon resulted in a GS title.

Then came his ethereal 1984 campaign, with 13 titles, 2 GS, and a 42-match win streak to begin the year. That ended with a 5 set loss to Lendl at Roland Garros after winning the first two sets - the most bitter defeat of his career. For the second straight year he dropped only one set at Wimbledon, routing Connors in the Final. He beat Connors in a 5 setter at Flushing and took Lendl out in straight sets for his 7th and last Grand Slam. His combined record VS Connors & Lendl (#2 & #3) was 11-1. He withdrew from the last major of the season (Australian) due to a wrist injury.

Laver remembers a young McEnroe’s innate ability to play the right shot. “I was very impressed with the way he covered the court, his volleying ability and where to hit the ball at the right time. He just knew what to do when he was a junior and when he hit the Open ranks, that he had to adjust very quickly as pros hit the ball harder. He got to No. 1 aged 21, so it was a transition, but he was ready for it. He had all the strokes, but he had the game already, he just needed to speed it up. When you come from the juniors it takes time to understand the different speeds of strokes and what works. McEnroe was already doing that as a junior, so it was a great asset. He did so many different things well, including how he hit his heavily spun serve, which was a big weapon. He always seemed to be one stroke ahead of everybody and came up with different strokes.”

McEnroe fell off quickly, reaching only one GS finals (straight sets loss to Lendl), and took a 6 month sabbatical in 1986, burned out from the stress of high level play. He won tournaments after he came back, had a few deep runs at GS events, won another WCT Final, but never again reached the heights of his early 80s starburst. His last entry in the top ten was late 1990. He retired in 1992, the #20 player in the world.

Rivalries:

Borg played McEnroe 14 times on tour 1978-81, splitting 7-7. Mac has the edge in Finals 5-4 and GS Finals 3-1. After his second straight GS loss of ‘81, at Louis Armstrong Stadium, Björn walked off before the ceremony and retired shortly thereafter.

Connors faces Johnny Mac 34 times 1977-1991, with McEnroe holding a 20-14 advantage, 6-3 at GS events, 7-7 in all finals. One of the most contentious, embittered rivalries in tennis history. McEnroe was prone to temperamental outbursts laced with profanity. The difference between the two is John has self-awareness and can laugh at himself. He always understood he was part of something larger than himself. Connors is Pete Rose with a racquet, never relinquishing an inch.

Lendl played McEnroe 36 times on the ATP Tour 1980-1992, with Ivan ahead 7-3 in GS matches and 21-15 overall. In all finals, John leads 10-7. They also played 27 invitational matches with Lendl leading 16-11.

McEnroe was married to actress Tatum O’Neal 1986-94 and rocker Patty Smyth since 1997.

Childhood friend and former doubles partner Mary Carillo says, “He was not just a remarkable No. 1, but also a glistening tennis player. He is intellectually curious about a lot of things. If he could have been any kind of artist, he would have been a musician. If he’d chosen any sport to be great in, it would have been basketball. He landed on tennis and he did justice to that.”

7. (10 points) Ivan Lendl 8 GS 1 Davis Cup

1068-242 (81.5%), 94 titles, 270 weeks at #1, record 11 GS runner up finishes, and 7 year end titles.

Lendl pioneered a new style of tennis; his game was built around his forehand, hit hard with heavy topspin, and his success is cited as a primary influence in popularizing the currently common playing style of aggressive baseline power tennis.

There was a progressive arc to Ivan Lendl’s career. He won often when he hit the scene but kept losing GS Finals. Once he got a knack for it, his consistency was phenomenal. He played a game wholly unfamiliar to his peers.

Born in Czechoslovakia to parents who were ranked players, he won the junior French and junior Wimbledon, and was the #1 amateur when he turned pro in late 1978. In 1980 he won 7 titles, 3 in succession on 3 different surfaces. He led Czechoslovakia to its first Davis Cup win. The following year he won 10 events, including his first Masters Grand Prix. Relocated to the United States, he won 15 of 23 events in 1982, with a 44-match win streak. He won all 10 WCT events he entered, twice beating McEnroe in straights sets finals, including Masters Grand Prix to end the year. He won another 7 titles in 1983, but still hadn’t broken through with a Grand Slam even though he was the leading money winner. He lost in 5 sets to Borg in the 1981 French, the 1982 US Open to Connors, and was runner up at both hard court GS Finals in 1983 (AO & US.)

In 1984, having split with his homeland’s government, he bought a home in Greenwich, CT. He came from 2 sets down in the finals at the French Open to beat McEnroe to claim his first major. The American beat him in straight sets at the US Open and the Volvo Masters. He lost the 1985 French to Wilander but claimed his first of three straight US Open crowns in September, dominating McEnroe in 3 sets. This began a run of a record 8 straight US Open finals. He won in straight sets at the WCT Finals and the year end Masters GP over Becker.

He added two more French Opens and two more Masters GP in 1986 & 1987, as well as two more US Opens. From 1985-87, his match winning percentage exceeded 90%, and five times he topped 90%, still a record. (Fed matches his streak of 3 years 2004-06.) He reached ten straight semifinals, a record for 19 years until Roger topped it. ATP Player of the Year 1985-87.

He opened 1989 with his first Australian, and successfully defended it in 1990. He won 10/17 events in the final year of the decade, but from that point forward his goal was his first Wimbledon crown. Between 1993-89 he was a SF 4 times and lost two and Finals.

In 1990 he switched to a larger head racket, skipped the French, won the Queen’s Club in grass, taking out McEnrie and Becker in the SF and F. Reaching the SF for the 7th time, he lost to Edberg at Wimbledon. He again skipped the French in 1991 but lost in the 3R, and Wimbledon remained elusive. His Australian Final loss to Becker that last year was his last GS finals.

Lendl was well known for his meticulous and intensive training and physical conditioning regime, and his scientific approach to preparation and playing. As part of his preparations for the US Open, he hired the same workers who laid the hardcourt surfaces at Flushing Meadows each year to install an exact copy in the grounds of his home in Greenwich.

He retired in 1994, his place in history secure.

Hos playing style was similar to Björn Borg’s heavy top spin, but Lendl’s forehand was flatter with tighter spin. Originally he relied on a slice backhand but saw better results in majors once he developed a top spin. His court coverage was very good. His high toss serve was powerful but inconsistent. His one weakness was his net game, and grass courts tended to neutralize his powerful control and dictating of points from the baseline. Very tough mentally.

He became a permanent resident in 1987 and a US Citizen in 1992. An avid golfer after retirement, he spent much of his time managing the golf careers of his 5 daughters.

His rivalry with McEnroe is documented above. Suffice to say Johnny Mac dominated the early 80s and Ivan was the king from 1985 on.

Hw played a record 5 GS Finals VS Wilander, with Mats edging him 3-2. Overall Lendl leads 15-7.

LAST TWO TIERS

Should be obvious where this is headed, there’s not much suspense beyond the order.

Tier 2 will be the three players we used to debate which was the greatest. I think I know the order but still researching it.

Tier 1 will be the three players who are the greasiest to ever step into the court. Honestly, I don’t know where it’s going to end up.

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joffer said:

Even though I picked Sampras, I remember thinking I didn’t really enjoy watching him play.  it was kind of boring.

give me Borg v McEnroe any day

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joffer said:

my large sample size of the the 7 drunk golfers i had a drink with this afternoon agree that Hakeem should be ahead of Duncan and Shaq.  I will take my 2 points in any form....

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Zow said:

Laver over Sampras is a bit of a surprise to me. Always thought Sampras was the consensus 4. 

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Long Ball Larry said:

considering having my attorney file a motion to recuse for UH as BB coach judge

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Getzlaf15 said:

MLB Greatest Outfielder Rankings-

Notes:
I used 8 different sets of criteria, relatively weighted appropriately. 

It was interesting as some of these guys are in the Greatest Player cat.

Possibly missing - Vlad, L. Walker, Sheffield

Oscar Charleston - Read several great articles on him. Had read a lot about him during the 1990's also.  I placed him where I felt he belonged on this list.  He played in leagues with much less talent and pitching.   He's a great player for sure, but I listed him only above those that I didn't have any doubts about.

I'm a solid fan of WAR and OPS+.  Those were weighted nicely.   Awards, Post Season, and a couple other cats received much lower weights.  # of Top 10 seasons in Off WAR was a cat.

I'm a little pressed for time, so write-ups won't be lengthy.


1 PT -  Kirby Puckett.   23.37 pts.     Should not be on the list.  Arguably does not make Top 10 of his decade.


2 PTS - Ichiro Suzuki.   24.38 pts.  Lowest OPS+ on list.   Credit for entering majors late kept him from last.


3 PTS - Joe Medwick.   28.56 pts.   2nd lowest WAR on list. Did have 4 more OFF top 10 OPS seasons than prior two to give him the nod here.


4 PTS - Tony Gwynn.   29.15 pts.   WAR was +15 over Medwick.  And that bumped him up just enough.


5 PTS - Carl Yastrzemski.  32.89 pts.   WAS +27 over Gwynn.   Again the main difference.


Out of time. Back later.
 

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Dungeon Master said:

TOP NBA FORWARDS:

For this category I looked at Titles, MVPs, ALL-NBAs, All-Star Appearances, All-Defensive Teams, DPOY, and Win Shares. #1 was easy, and #16 was easy. The rest were really tough. 

16 (1 point) - Dennis Rodman. The worm. I respect what he did, and I know how much he meant to the teams he played on. Maybe the greatest rebounder of all time. He won five titles, two defensive player of the year awards, and made 8 all defensive teams. Take no offense with this ranking, he is certainly an all-time great. But just 2 All-NBA teams and 2 All-Star teams, and the fewest win shares of the guys drafted other than Kahwi who will certainly pass him. He just doesn’t stack up to the rest of the guys here, even though he did bang Carmen Electra in her prime.

15 (2 points) - Dolph Schayes. Danny Schayes’s dad. Twelve all-nba teams, twelve all-star teams, and a title. He also made the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History list that came out in 1996, although he wouldn’t be on a new list if it came out today. Does he suffer from playing so long ago? Yes, probably. But here we are. 

14 (3 points) - Kevin McHale. A home grown Minnesota boy makes me want to bump him higher, but I think he’s the clear 3rd member of this bottom tier - it only gets tougher from here. McHale spent a good amount of his career coming off the bench, and he excelled at it with two 6th man of the year awards. Just one All-NBA team, but 7 all star games and 6 all defense teams prop up his case, and the 3 titles help as well. Bonus points were awarded for his wonderful appearances on Cheers, but then removed for his front office and coaching antics. 

13 (4 points) - Scottie Pippen. Man, some all-timers really get shafted when you’re talking about the all time greats, but when you spend almost your entire career as a second banana, even to the maybe greatest player of all time, you can’t move up too much higher. Maybe the greatest teammate of all time, Scottie could really do it all. He had seven all-nba teams and a whopping 10 appearances on all-defensive teams. The greatest sidekick of all-time, other than Garth Algar.

12 (5 points) - Bob Pettit. I’ve flipped him with the next guy over and over. It’s hard to ignore his two MVPs, but the next guy has way more titles and some eye popping defensive accolades, so we’re keeping Pettit here. One of only three players to ever average 20 points and 20 rebounds in a single season. Now I need to move him ahead of Pippen. These write-ups aren’t going to make much sense now. Oh well. Two MVPs, a 20/20 season, a title, and eleven all-nba teams is one hell of a resume. 

11 (6 points) - Kawhi Leonard. A tough guy to rank, not only because he has so much career left, but because he has a resume as odd as his personality. He has as many Finals MVPs (2) and Defensive Player of the Year awards (2) combined as he has All Star Game appearances (4). His three all-nba teams are fewer than anyone else on this list other than Rodman and McHale, but I think his other accolades warrant him this place on the list. He may have gotten a subconscious bump since his most recent successes are top of mind, but that’s ok, it’s my list.

10 (7 points) - Elgin Baylor. At one point held the record for most points in a game with 71. Interesting tidbit about our boy Elgin. He was in the army reserves, and was called to active duty during the 1961-1962 season. Since he was serving in Washington, the only way he could play for the Lakers was on a weekend pass. In other words, he spent the week doing army stuff, then played professional basketball on the weekends - no practices. He still averaged 38.3 points per game. In terms of individual talent he’s up there with anyone, but no MVPs and no titles hurt his case. 

9 (8 points) - Charles Barkley. Another great stats no titles guy, Barkley gets the nod over Elgin thanks to his 1993 MVP award. The Barkley to the Suns trade is still the first thing that comes to mind for me when I think about teams trading away a superstar, especially since it went so well for the Suns, and ended up so poorly for the Sixers. Barkley won the MVP and took the Suns to the Finals where he was an absolute monster. Unfortunately they had to play the Bulls. And don’t forget, he’s not a role model. 

8 (9 points) - Karl Malone. A great compiler of stats, a model of high level consistency, and a horrible person, Malone can’t be any higher due to his lack of a title. He won two MVPs and made four all defense teams, which I wouldn’t have guessed, although at least one of those MVPs should have gone to Jordan. His pick and roll game with Stockton was boring, and his post up game was predictable, but both were effective - he is currently second all-time in points scored in NBA history. If he had gotten the Jazz a title, he would have a very good case for the #2 forward of all-time (which, by the way, is Tim Duncan). 

7 (10 points) - John Havlicek. Might be a bit high for him overall, but if I’m going to ding guys for never winning a title I should bump him up for winning the most of anyone drafted with 8, even if he was never the best player on his team. He did snag a finals MVP and had eleven all NBA teams and 8 all defense teams, so it’s not like he was some kind of freeloader. He also has his own signature finals moment - “Havlicek stole the ball!”.

6 (11 points) - Kevin Durant. He’ll definitely end up higher on this list when it’s all said and done, but this is a good place for him at this point in his career. Two titles, two finals MVPs, and a regular season MVP to go along with 9 All-Nba teams. Some might ding him for joining the Warriors in order to get his titles, but people like blood sausage too - people are morons. My sons favorite player, and he had a nice little role in a movie called Thunderstruck you guys should check out if you have basketball fan kids. 

5 (12 points) - Dirk Nowitzki. One of the most fun players to watch, on the court and off, Dirk is the Mavericks. His play in the 2011 finals versus the Heat was just phenomenal, as he essentially won that title on his own - and the Finals MVP.  One of only 8 players to be apart of the 50-40-90 club for a season (50% shooting overall, 40% from 3, 90% free throws), he is currently sixth all-time in scoring in NBA history (third among forwards). Also third in career win shares on this list. My favorite part of Dirk is how he has embraced being the old guy. I don’t remember who, but somebody dunked over him and posted it on twitter and Dirk’s response was something like “you really got me good on that one.”  The NBA will miss him. I wonder what Tractor Traylor is up to these days?

4 (13 points) - Julius Erving. It’s easy to dismiss some of Dr. J’s accomplishments by pointing out he played in the ABA for a while where he amassed two championships, two playoff MVPs, two regular season MVPs, and five all star appearances, but that’s silly since he validated all that success with later NBA success. He won an NBA MVP award in 1981, an NBA title in 1983, and made seven all-NBA teams. Add in his recognizable afro, the free throw line dunk, rock the baby, and a killer nickname, and the man is a true icon of the sport. 

3 (14 points) - Kevin Garnett. I really really wanted to make him #2 because of my personal love, but I can’t. Still, he’s an amazing player in all phases of the game, and might be the best defender of all-time, given he could guard any player on the court, and his 12 all-defensive team awards with one DPOY. I remember when he declared for the draft out of high school. At first my friends and I thought it was ridiculous. The more we watched, the more we heard, the more excited we got until we were actively rooting for the Wolves to take him. And they actually did! And it was a magical ride, until Stephon Marbury decided to screw everything up. Curse you Marbury! The franchise has still not recovered. My personal favorite player of all-time (or Magic, can’t decide). 

2 (15 points) - Larry Bird. He packed a lot into his injury shortened career. In essentially just nine years before injuries began to take their toll, Bird won 3 NBA titles, 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs, a DPOY award, 3 all defense teams, 10 all-nba teams, and 12 all-star appearances. Probably the best shooter in history prior to Steph Curry coming along, he won three All-Star 3-point shooting contests and famously walked into the locker room before one of them asking “so who is going to finish in second place.” Bird was an epic trash talker as well (see here) with my personal favorite was when he told Xavier McDaniel, “I am going to get the ball, I’m going to right here, and I’m going to hit a shot right in your face.”  And he did. Only person in history to win NBA ROY, NBA MVP, NBA Finals MVP, NBA All-Star MVP, Coach of the Year, and Executive of the Year. 

1 (16 points) - Lebron James. There are only two players with a legit argument as the best of all time, and the other one is a guard, so James goes here. And get the F out of here with that nonsense about how being 3-5 in Finals is somehow a ding against him - he’s been to 8 Finals, and nearly single handedly defeated the winningest team in history despite being down 3-1, brought a title to his hometown for the first time in 52 years, and ended up with a pretty sweet role in a nice little movie called Trainwreck. Seventeen seasons in, and he shows few signs of slowing down - other than not really trying on defense any more (but he did make six all-defensive teams prior to that). He is third all-time in points, 8th in assists, 14th in steals, and 55th in rebounds. And he has a lot more years left. It’ll never be unanimous, but each year that passes his resume for best ever just gets stronger.

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Dungeon Master said:

TOP NBA FORWARDS:

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AAABatteries said:

I don’t think it’s that surprising tbh - I already gave my thoughts on Sampras being a one trick pony and I think many see Laver as the more complete player.  I will say that Sampras is hurt a bit by not being that like able or maybe a better way to say it is void of personality.

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Dungeon Master said:

TOP NBA FORWARDS:

For this category I looked at Titles, MVPs, ALL-NBAs, All-Star Appearances, All-Defensive Teams, DPOY, and Win Shares. #1 was easy, and #16 was easy. The rest were really tough. 

16 (1 point) - Dennis Rodman. The worm. I respect what he did, and I know how much he meant to the teams he played on. Maybe the greatest rebounder of all time. He won five titles, two defensive player of the year awards, and made 8 all defensive teams. Take no offense with this ranking, he is certainly an all-time great. But just 2 All-NBA teams and 2 All-Star teams, and the fewest win shares of the guys drafted other than Kahwi who will certainly pass him. He just doesn’t stack up to the rest of the guys here, even though he did bang Carmen Electra in her prime.

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Mister CIA said:

TIL John Havlicek was a foward.  I alway thought he was a guard.

Curious where Jerry Lucas would have ranked among forwards.  Top 15 minimum.  His stats were carzy.

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joffer said:

I’d flop Doc and the Mailman, but other than that pretty solid.  Did Karl Malone have some off the court stuff?  Honest question I don’t know.

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Mister CIA said:

I think he may have impregnated a 13-year old and denied responsibility.  Wikipedia

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Mister CIA said:

I think he may have impregnated a 13-year old and denied responsibility.  Wikipedia

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joffer said:

interesting.  One thing about these drafts is I always learn something

Dr J is a tough one.  He was a favorite of mine as I was a Sixers fan back then.  He took the game above the rim, but I always thought his jump shot (or lack thereof) holds him back on all-time lists.

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Dungeon Master said:

TOP NBA FORWARDS:

For this category I looked at Titles, MVPs, ALL-NBAs, All-Star Appearances, All-Defensive Teams, DPOY, and Win Shares. #1 was easy, and #16 was easy. The rest were really tough. 

16 (1 point) - Dennis Rodman. The worm. I respect what he did, and I know how much he meant to the teams he played on. Maybe the greatest rebounder of all time. He won five titles, two defensive player of the year awards, and made 8 all defensive teams. Take no offense with this ranking, he is certainly an all-time great. But just 2 All-NBA teams and 2 All-Star teams, and the fewest win shares of the guys drafted other than Kahwi who will certainly pass him. He just doesn’t stack up to the rest of the guys here, even though he did bang Carmen Electra in her prime.

15 (2 points) - Dolph Schayes. Danny Schayes’s dad. Twelve all-nba teams, twelve all-star teams, and a title. He also made the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History list that came out in 1996, although he wouldn’t be on a new list if it came out today. Does he suffer from playing so long ago? Yes, probably. But here we are. 

14 (3 points) - Kevin McHale. A home grown Minnesota boy makes me want to bump him higher, but I think he’s the clear 3rd member of this bottom tier - it only gets tougher from here. McHale spent a good amount of his career coming off the bench, and he excelled at it with two 6th man of the year awards. Just one All-NBA team, but 7 all star games and 6 all defense teams prop up his case, and the 3 titles help as well. Bonus points were awarded for his wonderful appearances on Cheers, but then removed for his front office and coaching antics. 

13 (4 points) - Scottie Pippen. Man, some all-timers really get shafted when you’re talking about the all time greats, but when you spend almost your entire career as a second banana, even to the maybe greatest player of all time, you can’t move up too much higher. Maybe the greatest teammate of all time, Scottie could really do it all. He had seven all-nba teams and a whopping 10 appearances on all-defensive teams. The greatest sidekick of all-time, other than Garth Algar.

12 (5 points) - Bob Pettit. I’ve flipped him with the next guy over and over. It’s hard to ignore his two MVPs, but the next guy has way more titles and some eye popping defensive accolades, so we’re keeping Pettit here. One of only three players to ever average 20 points and 20 rebounds in a single season. Now I need to move him ahead of Pippen. These write-ups aren’t going to make much sense now. Oh well. Two MVPs, a 20/20 season, a title, and eleven all-nba teams is one hell of a resume. 

11 (6 points) - Kawhi Leonard. A tough guy to rank, not only because he has so much career left, but because he has a resume as odd as his personality. He has as many Finals MVPs (2) and Defensive Player of the Year awards (2) combined as he has All Star Game appearances (4). His three all-nba teams are fewer than anyone else on this list other than Rodman and McHale, but I think his other accolades warrant him this place on the list. He may have gotten a subconscious bump since his most recent successes are top of mind, but that’s ok, it’s my list.

10 (7 points) - Elgin Baylor. At one point held the record for most points in a game with 71. Interesting tidbit about our boy Elgin. He was in the army reserves, and was called to active duty during the 1961-1962 season. Since he was serving in Washington, the only way he could play for the Lakers was on a weekend pass. In other words, he spent the week doing army stuff, then played professional basketball on the weekends - no practices. He still averaged 38.3 points per game. In terms of individual talent he’s up there with anyone, but no MVPs and no titles hurt his case. 

9 (8 points) - Charles Barkley. Another great stats no titles guy, Barkley gets the nod over Elgin thanks to his 1993 MVP award. The Barkley to the Suns trade is still the first thing that comes to mind for me when I think about teams trading away a superstar, especially since it went so well for the Suns, and ended up so poorly for the Sixers. Barkley won the MVP and took the Suns to the Finals where he was an absolute monster. Unfortunately they had to play the Bulls. And don’t forget, he’s not a role model. 

8 (9 points) - Karl Malone. A great compiler of stats, a model of high level consistency, and a horrible person, Malone can’t be any higher due to his lack of a title. He won two MVPs and made four all defense teams, which I wouldn’t have guessed, although at least one of those MVPs should have gone to Jordan. His pick and roll game with Stockton was boring, and his post up game was predictable, but both were effective - he is currently second all-time in points scored in NBA history. If he had gotten the Jazz a title, he would have a very good case for the #2 forward of all-time (which, by the way, is Tim Duncan). 

7 (10 points) - John Havlicek. Might be a bit high for him overall, but if I’m going to ding guys for never winning a title I should bump him up for winning the most of anyone drafted with 8, even if he was never the best player on his team. He did snag a finals MVP and had eleven all NBA teams and 8 all defense teams, so it’s not like he was some kind of freeloader. He also has his own signature finals moment - “Havlicek stole the ball!”.

6 (11 points) - Kevin Durant. He’ll definitely end up higher on this list when it’s all said and done, but this is a good place for him at this point in his career. Two titles, two finals MVPs, and a regular season MVP to go along with 9 All-Nba teams. Some might ding him for joining the Warriors in order to get his titles, but people like blood sausage too - people are morons. My sons favorite player, and he had a nice little role in a movie called Thunderstruck you guys should check out if you have basketball fan kids. 

5 (12 points) - Dirk Nowitzki. One of the most fun players to watch, on the court and off, Dirk is the Mavericks. His play in the 2011 finals versus the Heat was just phenomenal, as he essentially won that title on his own - and the Finals MVP.  One of only 8 players to be apart of the 50-40-90 club for a season (50% shooting overall, 40% from 3, 90% free throws), he is currently sixth all-time in scoring in NBA history (third among forwards). Also third in career win shares on this list. My favorite part of Dirk is how he has embraced being the old guy. I don’t remember who, but somebody dunked over him and posted it on twitter and Dirk’s response was something like “you really got me good on that one.”  The NBA will miss him. I wonder what Tractor Traylor is up to these days?

4 (13 points) - Julius Erving. It’s easy to dismiss some of Dr. J’s accomplishments by pointing out he played in the ABA for a while where he amassed two championships, two playoff MVPs, two regular season MVPs, and five all star appearances, but that’s silly since he validated all that success with later NBA success. He won an NBA MVP award in 1981, an NBA title in 1983, and made seven all-NBA teams. Add in his recognizable afro, the free throw line dunk, rock the baby, and a killer nickname, and the man is a true icon of the sport. 

3 (14 points) - Kevin Garnett. I really really wanted to make him #2 because of my personal love, but I can’t. Still, he’s an amazing player in all phases of the game, and might be the best defender of all-time, given he could guard any player on the court, and his 12 all-defensive team awards with one DPOY. I remember when he declared for the draft out of high school. At first my friends and I thought it was ridiculous. The more we watched, the more we heard, the more excited we got until we were actively rooting for the Wolves to take him. And they actually did! And it was a magical ride, until Stephon Marbury decided to screw everything up. Curse you Marbury! The franchise has still not recovered. My personal favorite player of all-time (or Magic, can’t decide). 

2 (15 points) - Larry Bird. He packed a lot into his injury shortened career. In essentially just nine years before injuries began to take their toll, Bird won 3 NBA titles, 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs, a DPOY award, 3 all defense teams, 10 all-nba teams, and 12 all-star appearances. Probably the best shooter in history prior to Steph Curry coming along, he won three All-Star 3-point shooting contests and famously walked into the locker room before one of them asking “so who is going to finish in second place.” Bird was an epic trash talker as well (see here) with my personal favorite was when he told Xavier McDaniel, “I am going to get the ball, I’m going to right here, and I’m going to hit a shot right in your face.”  And he did. Only person in history to win NBA ROY, NBA MVP, NBA Finals MVP, NBA All-Star MVP, Coach of the Year, and Executive of the Year. 

1 (16 points) - Lebron James. There are only two players with a legit argument as the best of all time, and the other one is a guard, so James goes here. And get the F out of here with that nonsense about how being 3-5 in Finals is somehow a ding against him - he’s been to 8 Finals, and nearly single handedly defeated the winningest team in history despite being down 3-1, brought a title to his hometown for the first time in 52 years, and ended up with a pretty sweet role in a nice little movie called Trainwreck. Seventeen seasons in, and he shows few signs of slowing down - other than not really trying on defense any more (but he did make six all-defensive teams prior to that). He is third all-time in points, 8th in assists, 14th in steals, and 55th in rebounds. And he has a lot more years left. It’ll never be unanimous, but each year that passes his resume for best ever just gets stronger.

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Uruk-Hai said:

He got better at shooting when he was older. When he was young - to be honest - he didn't need a jumper. And, it may sound crazy, but I think the size of his hands made shooting tough for him.

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wikkidpissah said:

This. Hand size becomes important because loft & spin become difficult at a point when fingers are so long they push instead of roll the ball. I believe shot coaches know how to manage this now that outside shooting is at a premium. Doc's battles w Bernard King (as good an offensive player as i ever saw at his brief peak) were epic and Erving really showed some stroke during these battles in his mid-30s, if on will alone

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• Magic Johnson
  
• Hakeem Olajuwan
  
• Manu Ginobili
  
• Pete Maravich
  
• Larry Bird
  

Getzlaf15 said:

Standings after Dungeon Master ranked NBA Forwards - 

 

1 --jwb--97

2 --higgins--97

3 --AAABatteries--95

4 --Gally--95

5 --otb_lifer--94

6 --Ilov80s--94

7 --Jagov--87

8 --wikkidpissah--85

9 --timschochet--84

10 -joffer--84

11 -tuffnutt--82

12 -Zow--81

13 -Long Ball Larry--75

14 -Getzlaf15--74

15 -DougB--70

16 -Kal El--66

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Mister CIA said:

Can you beat this lineup, 5 on 5?

• Magic Johnson
  
• Hakeem Olajuwan
  
• Manu Ginobili
  
• Pete Maravich
  
• Larry Bird
  

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joffer said:

Adrian Dantley was another one.

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Mister CIA said:

We took a '1' on Diana Nyad.  We got this.

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Uruk-Hai said:

joffer said:

Adrian Dantley was another one.

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Forgotten great player. He was about 2" shorter than listed - maybe 6'3" - but he was a PITA to defend inside. He'd get the ball down low, shoot, it would get blocked, he'd corral the ball, shoot again, get fouled or make the shot. By the end of the game, whoever was defending him was either fouled out or gassed.

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Getzlaf15 said:

NBA F rankings were fine for me except for one player.   Havlicek.   I grew up watching him and just can't give him more than four points on that list.  He was a complimentary player like Pippen, and Pippen is a better player IMO.

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Dungeon Master said:

The older guys are tough. I mean, Havlicek retired when I was 1 year old. And I did admit that he may be a little high, but that's a lot of accolades. 

Also Karl Malone is criminally overrated. 

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Dungeon Master said:

The older guys are tough. I mean, Havlicek retired when I was 1 year old. And I did admit that he may be a little high, but that's a lot of accolades. 

Also Karl Malone is criminally overrated. 

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Getzlaf15 said:

MLB Greatest Outfielder Rankings-

Notes:
I used 8 different sets of criteria, relatively weighted appropriately. 

It was interesting as some of these guys are in the Greatest Player cat.

Possibly missing - Vlad, L. Walker, Sheffield

Oscar Charleston - Read several great articles on him. Had read a lot about him during the 1990's also.  I placed him where I felt he belonged on this list.  He played in leagues with much less talent and pitching.   He's a great player for sure, but I listed him only above those that I didn't have any doubts about.

I'm a solid fan of WAR and OPS+.  Those were weighted nicely.   Awards, Post Season, and a couple other cats received much lower weights.  # of Top 10 seasons in Off WAR was a cat.

I'm a little pressed for time, so write-ups won't be lengthy.


1 PT -  Kirby Puckett.   23.37 pts.     Should not be on the list.  Arguably does not make Top 10 of his decade.


2 PTS - Ichiro Suzuki.   24.38 pts.  Lowest OPS+ on list.   Credit for entering majors late kept him from last.


3 PTS - Joe Medwick.   28.56 pts.   2nd lowest WAR on list. Did have 4 more OFF top 10 OPS seasons than prior two to give him the nod here.


4 PTS - Tony Gwynn.   29.15 pts.   WAR was +15 over Medwick.  And that bumped him up just enough.


5 PTS - Carl Yastrzemski.  32.89 pts.   WAS +27 over Gwynn.   Again the main difference.


Out of time. Back later.
 

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Getzlaf15 said:

16 PTS - Barry Bonds.   69.41 pts.   14AS games and 7 MVP.  182 OPS+.   162.8 WAR.  14 Top 10 WAR seasons.   #1 MLB ever in MVP shares by a huge amount.   

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joffer said:

oh my lord no

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Uruk-Hai said:

Men's CBB Coaches (Part Two)

9 pts - Billy Donovan. I had him WAY lower om my first cut at this. Then I noticed that this dude made a crapload of Elite 8s along with 3 FFs and 2 titles. If he had stayed in college (or, if he comes back), he may move up this list.

10 pts - Roy Williams. He's piling them up. Got dinged A LOT at Kansas for not hanging a NCAAT banner. He's another I don't think is a great game coach, but he preps his teams well and can recruit with anyone.

11 pts - Denny Crum. I feel like he's all but forgotten and I'm not sure why. His teams were tough as nails, were a blast to watch (they were the first "modern" teams, IMO), and he's got two rings. He'd play anybody, anywhere. Just a masterful coach on both ends.

12 pts - Bobby Knight. Great tactician. No one knows more about basketball than him, but he wouldn't change and the game passed him by. He kinda lucked into that 3rd ring. 

13 pts - John Wooden. Record speaks for itself, though it's inflated by the environment most of his teams played in. Master tactician, recruiter (who cheated). and motivator. He retired at the right time, as the world was moving on. 

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