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Has the cure become worse than the disease? (1 Viewer)

Has the cure become worse than the disease?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 23.3%

  • No

    Votes: 159 67.4%

  • Undecided

    Votes: 22 9.3%
  • Total voters
    236
Rich Conway said:
Yes, when people ignore rules that encourage and facilitate the safety of the populace at large, it upsets me.  Does it not upset you?  Should all people be allowed to ignore whichever rules they feel are inconvenient?
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Look, I think we all know that conservatives are temperamentally inclined to excuse lawbreakers, examine their motives, and question the merits of the law itself. It's just in their nature.

 
tonydead said:
Nobody was wearing a mask at the convenience store downtown yesterday.  Zero, 0.0%, not even the store clerk.  The two amigos in line ahead of me on their way to work, essential business because people at home in quarantine can’t be expected to mow their own lawns, were buying coffee (no masks).  Apparently you can’t get your own coffee anymore, or soda from the soda machine.  All the cups are taken away and the store clerk has to do it for you.  So, while the clerk was getting their coffee which was taking forever; “How many creamers do you want with that? 50? No you can’t have that many, 5?” she was having trouble understanding them.  A homeless guy (no mask) was directly behind them, one foot away (< 6 feet), putting oatmeal packets into a cup; “Don’t touch that!, You can’t do that!”.  He completely ignored the store clerk.  He was touching everything, coughing, grunting, and talking to himself.  Anyway, my friends get their coffee, and I get my tobacco and split the scene.  While sanitizing in my car out comes the homeless guy.  I don’t think he ever found the hot water for his oatmeal, he will have to eat it raw, and he walked right out without paying for it.  The store clerks don’t even bother calling the police for theft anymore, but you’re expecting someone to enforce mask wearing?
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I swear to God, I was reading this post and, right up until I got to the last sentence, was wondering why a dude I thought was in favor of opening things up was making such a strong case for continued shutdowns and social distancing.

 
zftcg said:
tonydead said:
Nobody was wearing a mask at the convenience store downtown yesterday.  Zero, 0.0%, not even the store clerk.  The two amigos in line ahead of me on their way to work, essential business because people at home in quarantine can’t be expected to mow their own lawns, were buying coffee (no masks).  Apparently you can’t get your own coffee anymore, or soda from the soda machine.  All the cups are taken away and the store clerk has to do it for you.  So, while the clerk was getting their coffee which was taking forever; “How many creamers do you want with that? 50? No you can’t have that many, 5?” she was having trouble understanding them.  A homeless guy (no mask) was directly behind them, one foot away (< 6 feet), putting oatmeal packets into a cup; “Don’t touch that!, You can’t do that!”.  He completely ignored the store clerk.  He was touching everything, coughing, grunting, and talking to himself.  Anyway, my friends get their coffee, and I get my tobacco and split the scene.  While sanitizing in my car out comes the homeless guy.  I don’t think he ever found the hot water for his oatmeal, he will have to eat it raw, and he walked right out without paying for it.  The store clerks don’t even bother calling the police for theft anymore, but you’re expecting someone to enforce mask wearing?
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I swear to God, I was reading this post and, right up until I got to the last sentence, was wondering why a dude I thought was in favor of opening things up was making such a strong case for continued shutdowns and social distancing.
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For all the people saying we should try what Sweden did, the above is EXACTLY why we can't. Sweden didn't need lockdowns BECAUSE the Swedish people cooperated voluntarily. 

 
zftcg said:
I swear to God, I was reading this post and, right up until I got to the last sentence, was wondering why a dude I thought was in favor of opening things up was making such a strong case for continued shutdowns and social distancing.
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I believe in opening up with strong social distancing.  The poster I was responding to has a history of berating people in here, the PSF forum, yet making excuses for all types of people and situations in the real world that are much worse.  I didn't get anywhere near those people I observed, three of the four other people need to do what I did.  The elected officials need to take care of the derelicts.  Yet, everytime they come on TV they don't address the homeless problem (much like the poster I responded to) they tell regular people to not let their kids have sleepovers.

 
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tonydead said:
I believe in opening up with strong social distancing.  The poster I was responding to has a history of berating people in here, the PSF forum, yet making excuses for all types of people and situations in the real world that are much worse.  I didn't get anywhere near those people I observed, three of the four other people need to do what I did.  The elected officials need to take care of the derelicts.  Yet, everytime they come on TV they don't address the homeless problem (much like the poster I responded to) they tell regular people to not let their kids sleepovers.
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That's because it's a show for the public. The photo of the White House lawn after Trump was done with questions speaks volumes about what the media really thinks about the virus. 

 
Max Power said:
That's because it's a show for the public. The photo of the White House lawn after Trump was done with questions speaks volumes about what the media really thinks about the virus. 
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How about the photos of the West Wing wearing masks? And the fact that Trump and Pence are tested every day, what do those two things say about how the administration really feels about the virus?

 
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Amused to Death said:
How about the photos of the West Wing wearing masks? And the fact that Trump and Pence are tested every day, what do those two things say about how the administration really feels about the virus?
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They are being cautious. I dont understand what one has to do with the other. Media pushes masks and social distancing, then once the cameras are off, they take their masks off and dont social distance. 

 
zftcg said:
I swear to God, I was reading this post and, right up until I got to the last sentence, was wondering why a dude I thought was in favor of opening things up was making such a strong case for continued shutdowns and social distancing.
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My previous post and:

We never were shut down with this type of thing happening.  The argument for continued shutdowns is bunk.  That's the whole point of this thread.  30% of the businesses are being treated unfairly.

Luckily there are enough smart people to use social distancing and our numbers have dropped.  It has nothing to do with shutting down the dry cleaners and car washes.

 
Max Power said:
They are being cautious. I dont understand what one has to do with the other. Media pushes masks and social distancing, then once the cameras are off, they take their masks off and dont social distance. 
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And the people that hang on their every word while saying Americans won't venture out to open businesses out of fear, are the same ones that will venture out to open businesses the second they are open. It's another case of do as I say and not as I do. Look at the Chicago mayor who gets her hair done and then tells everyone it's okay for her because she has a high profile job which requires her to be well groomed.

There's maybe one person here who I 100% believe will actually stay home and exercise their own extra personal precaution beyond the lifting of shutdown orders and that's @Mr. Ham. And I totally respect him for that. Everyone else will be going to their barbers and the like, the first chance they get. All the while shouting about how reckless everyone else is being.

 
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Mr Anonymous said:
And the people that hang on their every word while saying Americans won't venture out to open businesses out of fear, are the same ones that will venture out to open businesses the second they are open. It's another case of do as I say and not as I do.

There's maybe one person here who I 100% believe will actually stay home and exercise their own extra personal precaution beyond the lifting of shutdown orders and that's @Mr. Ham. And I totally respect him for that. Everyone else will be going to their barbers and the like, the first chance they get. All the while shouting about how reckless everyone else is being.
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Speak for yourself.  I can guarantee I won't be returning to pre-COVID normal anytime soon.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
And the people that hang on their every word while saying Americans won't venture out to open businesses out of fear, are the same ones that will venture out to open businesses the second they are open. It's another case of do as I say and not as I do.

There's maybe one person here who I 100% believe will actually stay home and exercise their own extra personal precaution beyond the lifting of shutdown orders and that's @Mr. Ham. And I totally respect him for that. Everyone else will be going to their barbers and the like, the first chance they get. All the while shouting about how reckless everyone else is being.
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Your speculation, noted.

 
I dont think sports should be cancelled, but I dont think they should be allowed by schools who aren't bringing students back for the fall. 

 
Rich Conway said:
Speak for yourself.  I can guarantee I won't be returning to pre-COVID normal anytime soon.
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What's your definition of normal because I'm not equating going to the barber as participating in the old normal. I'll be wearing a mask, my barber will be wearing a mask. There will be separation between stations, no public waiting areas, etc. I'm not going to a barber that has things set up like the good old days. Are you saying you're staying at home no matter what safety measures are in place?

 
Amused to Death said:
Your speculation, noted.
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I've already witnessed it where states have reopened. The second things were allowed to reopen, people flocked to them. And if it was entirely conservatives filling up those businesses, then apparently there's enough of them to maintain all businesses in this country. We all know that's not the case. Liberals were jumping at the chance to get a haircut too.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
I've already witnessed it where states have reopened. The second things were allowed to reopen, people flocked to them. And if it was entirely conservatives filling up those businesses, then apparently there's enough of them to maintain all businesses in this country. We all know that's not the case. Liberals were jumping at the chance to get a haircut too.
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Your anecdotal evidence, noted. Let's see how sustainable it is, especially if the cases/deaths start to rise as the medical community predicts.

 
Well......I would imagine the media is actively seeking to find a Wisconsin bar attendee who will get very sick or die from corona after heading to the bar today.

I am 100% certain they are hoping for that story to develop.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
What's your definition of normal because I'm not equating going to the barber as participating in the old normal. I'll be wearing a mask, my barber will be wearing a mask. There will be separation between stations, no public waiting areas, etc. I'm not going to a barber that has things set up like the good old days. Are you saying you're staying at home no matter what safety measures are in place?
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I won't be doing much different than what I was doing since all of this started. I'll go to the barbershop (just went to my barber's garage instead of the actual shop last month) but I still won't be eating at restaurants or going to bars for a while. Maybe will go out to a store or two but don't really see the need when you can just shop online. Obviously will continue to wear masks when I go out to places like Whole Foods, Target, Home Depot, etc.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
What's your definition of normal because I'm not equating going to the barber as participating in the old normal. I'll be wearing a mask, my barber will be wearing a mask. There will be separation between stations, no public waiting areas, etc. I'm not going to a barber that has things set up like the good old days. Are you saying you're staying at home no matter what safety measures are in place?
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Fair question.

I've cut my own hair for the past 20+ years (let's just call that frugality, shall we?), so I'll assume that will stay the same.

I certainly won't be taking my kid to a concert in September as we had originally planned.  I won't go to the office often, if at all.  I won't be dining at restaurants anytime soon.  I won't be going to the HOA pool and BBQing with six other families this summer, like we have most summer weekends for the past 10 years.  I won't stop by Walmart on a whim to pick up one thing on my way home from work once a week.  I sincerely doubt I'll allow my teenager to work part time at a retail shop in town, as we had planned.  In short, I'll be extremely selective in what I do, when, and how.

 
Rich Conway said:
Fair question.

I've cut my own hair for the past 20+ years (let's just call that frugality, shall we?), so I'll assume that will stay the same.

I certainly won't be taking my kid to a concert in September as we had originally planned.  I won't go to the office often, if at all.  I won't be dining at restaurants anytime soon.  I won't be going to the HOA pool and BBQing with six other families this summer, like we have most summer weekends for the past 10 years.  I won't stop by Walmart on a whim to pick up one thing on my way home from work once a week.  I sincerely doubt I'll allow my teenager to work part time at a retail shop in town, as we had planned.  In short, I'll be extremely selective in what I do, when, and how.
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And I don't fault you for any of those choices. My prediction is that you'll loosen those measures sooner than you anticipate but only because you'll feel safe doing so sooner than you're expecting. That's entirely opinion and just a gut feeling about the things we'll learn in the next 8 weeks. From what the last 8 weeks have shown me, I feel comfortable doing most of those things you listed provided the workers and myself are wearing masks and I'm able to keep my distance from those who aren't. I'm not at all interested in being part of a large crowd, especially indoors. The only people I take exception to are those calling for the extending shutdowns. In a perfect world, sure keep us all at home until we have a test for every American, but we're at the point that we have to come up with something better. We had plenty of time to come up with a way to reopen safely.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
And I don't fault you for any of those choices. My prediction is that you'll loosen those measures sooner than you anticipate but only because you'll feel safe doing so sooner than you're expecting. That's entirely opinion and just a gut feeling about the things we'll learn in the next 8 weeks. From what the last 8 weeks have shown me, I feel comfortable doing most of those things you listed provided the workers and myself are wearing masks and I'm able to keep my distance from those who aren't. I'm not at all interested in being part of a large crowd, especially indoors. The only people I take exception to are those calling for the extending shutdowns. In a perfect world, sure keep us all at home until we have a test for every American, but we're at the point that we have to come up with something better. We had plenty of time to come up with a way to reopen safely.
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I think your last sentence is the point.  We have had plenty of time to architect solutions for testing and contact tracing.  We just wasted that time instead of, you know, doing it.

Again, this "calling for extended shutdowns" is revisionist.  The call all along has been for testing and contact tracing so that we can reopen safely.  The answer has repeatedly been "that's too hard" without further explanation.  To reiterate, the testing and contact tracing part is the "how".  We know it's possible.  Lots of other countries are doing it well.  Why is it "too hard" and a "pipe dream" here?

 
Mr Anonymous said:
And I don't fault you for any of those choices. My prediction is that you'll loosen those measures sooner than you anticipate but only because you'll feel safe doing so sooner than you're expecting. That's entirely opinion and just a gut feeling about the things we'll learn in the next 8 weeks. From what the last 8 weeks have shown me, I feel comfortable doing most of those things you listed provided the workers and myself are wearing masks and I'm able to keep my distance from those who aren't. I'm not at all interested in being part of a large crowd, especially indoors. The only people I take exception to are those calling for the extending shutdowns. In a perfect world, sure keep us all at home until we have a test for every American, but we're at the point that we have to come up with something better. We had plenty of time to come up with a way to reopen safely.
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Your prediction assumes there will not be any significant increase in cases or deaths as a result of opening too soon. And we all hope your assumption is correct, however it is not guaranteed. In fact, we've been warned serious consequences and death could occur further worsening our economy.

Its no doubt a gamble based on nothing more than optimism. 

 
supermike80 said:
Well......I would imagine the media is actively seeking to find a Wisconsin bar attendee who will get very sick or die from corona after heading to the bar today.

I am 100% certain they are hoping for that story to develop.
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And then we can have a 50 page debate on whether it was Covid or just a hangover.  

 
I won't leave my house for store/restaurant/bar for a long time.

I've got by just fine with online shopping and grocery shopping once every 3 weeks....

:shrug:

 
Max Power said:
It is going to get worse.  My wife volunteers at our daughter's school and was talking to her teacher today.  The teacher told us they are preparing to start the next school year with students in the classroom for only 2 days a week.  The other days will be on-line.  Classes will be limited to 10-12 students per classroom at a time with half the class going Monday and Tuesday and the other half goes Wednesday and Thursday. 
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I think this is actually a pretty creative idea :shrug:

10-12 students per class is an excellent ratio and will allow for far more teaching to be done that normal. Kids work on independent work while at home and use in class time for guided stuff and help from teacher 

 
Amused to Death said:
Your prediction assumes there will not be any significant increase in cases or deaths as a result of opening too soon. And we all hope your assumption is correct, however it is not guaranteed. In fact, we've been warned serious consequences and death could occur further worsening our economy.

Its no doubt a gamble based on nothing more than optimism. 
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Don't forget - it's based on necessity more than anything. My prediction and opinion that the next 8 weeks will put more at ease is based on my belief about the building antibodies data, the number of asymptomatic people already known and those to come, warmer weather, mask usage well beyond that of prior to the shutdowns which was zero, and the more appropriate directing of resources and caution to those who actually need it.

And I could be wrong about the severity of any coming waves but it still doesn't change my mind about the need to reopen. If the next wave is anywhere near as bad as the first it will be a reflection of our failure to take common sense measures. We'd literally have to turn a blind eye to all of that gained knowledge.

 
the moops said:
I think this is actually a pretty creative idea :shrug:

10-12 students per class is an excellent ratio and will allow for far more teaching to be done that normal. Kids work on independent work while at home and use in class time for guided stuff and help from teacher 
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Other than a parent needs to be home 2 or 3 more days a week now and with the same teacher teaching two sets of students, they wouldn't be available to help the students working online very much. 

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Don't forget - it's based on necessity more than anything. My prediction and opinion that the next 8 weeks will put more at ease is based on my belief about the building antibodies data, the number of asymptomatic people already known and those to come, warmer weather, mask usage well beyond that of prior to the shutdowns which was zero, and the more appropriate directing of resources and caution to those who actually need it.

And I could be wrong about the severity of any coming waves but it still doesn't change my mind about the need to reopen. If the next wave is anywhere near as bad as the first it will be a reflection of our failure to take common sense measures. We'd literally have to turn a blind eye to all of that gained knowledge.
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just a very good post!  IMO

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Don't forget - it's based on necessity more than anything. My prediction and opinion that the next 8 weeks will put more at ease is based on my belief about the building antibodies data, the number of asymptomatic people already known and those to come, warmer weather, mask usage well beyond that of prior to the shutdowns which was zero, and the more appropriate directing of resources and caution to those who actually need it.

And I could be wrong about the severity of any coming waves but it still doesn't change my mind about the need to reopen. If the next wave is anywhere near as bad as the first it will be a reflection of our failure to take common sense measures. We'd literally have to turn a blind eye to all of that gained knowledge.
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:goodposting:  This is the dead on logical response....not sure how that will do in here but very well done. 

 
Max Power said:
Other than a parent needs to be home 2 or 3 more days a week now and with the same teacher teaching two sets of students, they wouldn't be available to help the students working online very much. 
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:shrug:

We all gotta try and figure this thing out together. I respect them trying something instead of just saying "kids are going back to school no matter what".

 
TripItUp said:
I'd get a haircut and eat in a crowded restaurant tonight if I could.
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A crowded restaurant that also does haircuts? Yuck.

But seriously, I'd like to go to a crowded restaurant tonight but my wife and I moved her 77 year old mother in with us last year and I think it would be really ####ty of me to add unnecessary risk at this point. That's kind of the kicker. Your actions and mine have consequences to others. 

 
kwille said:
A crowded restaurant that also does haircuts? Yuck.

But seriously, I'd like to go to a crowded restaurant tonight but my wife and I moved her 77 year old mother in with us last year and I think it would be really ####ty of me to add unnecessary risk at this point. That's kind of the kicker. Your actions and mine have consequences to others. 
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totally get it, each person has a different situation....if I lived with an elderly person I would be on lockdown.

 
Amused to Death said:
Your prediction assumes there will not be any significant increase in cases or deaths as a result of opening too soon. And we all hope your assumption is correct, however it is not guaranteed. In fact, we've been warned serious consequences and death could occur further worsening our economy.

Its no doubt a gamble based on nothing more than optimism. 
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That’s not true. It’s also based on laziness, at least among our political leadership. It’s too hard so let’s pretend we don’t need to do it

 
If you are under 65 years and good health you have a greater then 99.8% chance overcoming the virus even if you get sick. 

Link

OPEN UP

Keep the old and sick protected and let everyone else get back to work. Enough of the BS. 

 
tonydead said:
If you are under 65 years and good health you have a greater then 99.8% chance overcoming the virus even if you get sick. 

Link

OPEN UP

Keep the old and sick protected and let everyone else get back to work. Enough of the BS. 
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Agreed. There's simply no facts that support staying shutdown other than the few hotspots we have. I wanted us to play it safe early on, but the numbers don't lie.

Unfortunately, viruses hit compromised people the hardest. It's a fact of life people are going to die from viruses.

Furthermore, no matter your risk factor, people can choose to keep sheltering in if they want. If you believe it's warranted, fine. Lots of factors to consider.

This is no longer debatable.

 
tonydead said:
If you are under 65 years and good health you have a greater then 99.8% chance overcoming the virus even if you get sick. 

Link

OPEN UP

Keep the old and sick protected and let everyone else get back to work. Enough of the BS. 
Click to expand...
Overcoming you say...and any after effects to the lungs and heart?

 
JbizzleMan said:
Young people are having freaking strokes from Covid-19. They do not know enough about this disease to gamble on "just getting over it."
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Yeah, let’s shut down the economy for 1 or 2 rare cases that most likely had a history of strokes before COVID

 
The flu is more likely to kill a healthy young person than COVID.  Imagine the shock when people find that out.  They might never leave their house again.

 
Amused to Death said:
Your anecdotal evidence, noted. Let's see how sustainable it is, especially if the cases/deaths start to rise as the medical community predicts.
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Two more weeks, right?  And then two more weeks after that?

The great thing about this narrative is you can 1) cherry pick any small city 2) ignore an increase in testing resulting in higher positive cases 3) ignore a massive increase due to prison testing 4) use a state that includes positive antibodies as new cases even if the person was sick months ago 5) say the state is lying when cases decrease 6) speculate there isn’t enough testing 7) two more weeks or all of the above.

 
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tjnc09 said:
The flu is more likely to kill a healthy young person than COVID.  Imagine the shock when people find that out.  They might never leave their house again.
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This is bad math.

You're comparing ~2 months of COVID deaths to an entire year's worth of flu deaths.

Also, your narrative is already wrong -- there have been over 4200 COVID deaths of people under the age of 55 (compared to ~2500 deaths from the flu in an average year).

Your overall point does have merit to it; there's just no need to exaggerate the numbers to get your point across.

 
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