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Has the cure become worse than the disease?

Has the cure become worse than the disease?  

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17 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Actually I agree with you on this. Sho’s response to Opie was snarky in tone. You were probably justified to call him out, IMO. 
But let’s look at the bigger picture for once: 

@Opie is helping out people in need. 
 

@sho nuff is helping out people in need. 
 

@GoBirds is helping out people in need. 

These are all good peoples. I disagree strongly with 2 of them but who cares? They’re all doing the good stuff here. Let’s thank them and everyone else who is showing kindness during these difficult days. 
 

The last paragraph is all that matters, but because someone on the other side said something then Tony jumps on them and vice versa for the people on the left, every... mother... bleeping... time. It is so sad. 

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7 hours ago, Kal El said:

The government isn't the one calling the shots here. The virus is. More specifically, our inability to stick to a plan to combat something that takes longer than 5 weeks, is what's calling the shots.

We stuck to the plan and more than flattened the curve.  We deployed hospital ships that were barely even needed, ventilators in surplus etc.  We saved the health care system from collapse - this was always the goal of the lockdown.  The goal was never to stay locked down until the virus was gone, because that would be a catastrophic plan.  We avoided one calamity with healthcare, now we have to try to avoid a calamity with our economy, which also will be a mass casualty event. 

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2 hours ago, Sam Quentin said:

We stuck to the plan and more than flattened the curve.  We deployed hospital ships that were barely even needed, ventilators in surplus etc.  We saved the health care system from collapse - this was always the goal of the lockdown.  The goal was never to stay locked down until the virus was gone, because that would be a catastrophic plan.  We avoided one calamity with healthcare, now we have to try to avoid a calamity with our economy, which also will be a mass casualty event. 

All past tense. Did the virus go away, like a miracle?

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6 hours ago, tonydead said:

Sure it does. If the conversation is doing something extra to help these businesses. And you say hey, I'm still eating take out like I always do! That isnt relevant.  

But let's be real, he started with the snark "Some of us".  That's the post you should've been calling out if you feel like policing what people say.  

Yep, same old typical trolling so I let it be. Don’t let them get to you, they would never call out their own side.....you are correct. 

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5 hours ago, Sam Quentin said:

We stuck to the plan and more than flattened the curve.  We deployed hospital ships that were barely even needed, ventilators in surplus etc.  We saved the health care system from collapse - this was always the goal of the lockdown.  The goal was never to stay locked down until the virus was gone, because that would be a catastrophic plan.  We avoided one calamity with healthcare, now we have to try to avoid a calamity with our economy, which also will be a mass casualty event. 

This virus is still going, and is likely to get worse because of relaxing restrictions. Also, go compare the Spanish Flu death toll to the Great Depression, the former is far worse. This slowdown won't be nearly as deadly as some might think it is, and it certainly won't reach Covid's numbers.

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5 hours ago, Sam Quentin said:

We stuck to the plan and more than flattened the curve.  We deployed hospital ships that were barely even needed, ventilators in surplus etc.  We saved the health care system from collapse - this was always the goal of the lockdown.  The goal was never to stay locked down until the virus was gone, because that would be a catastrophic plan.  We avoided one calamity with healthcare, now we have to try to avoid a calamity with our economy, which also will be a mass casualty event. 

Some don’t seem to grasp this.  Thank you for this post, 100% dead on. 

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In FL the unemployment disaster is far worse than the coronavirus.  Ron can pay himself on the back for FL not "becoming the next Italy"  but he has an absolute dumpster fire going on now.

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2 hours ago, GoBirds said:

Some don’t seem to grasp this.  Thank you for this post, 100% dead on. 

Who doesn't grasp that?  Who is saying stay shut down until the virus is gone?  

 

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14 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:
16 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

If business owners don't feel safe opening their businesses, should they continue to be eligible for the various small business support programs?

How about employees?  If they don't feel safe returning to work, should they still be eligible for unemployment or other government assistance?

What support program are you referring to?

Re: workers, in order to collect unemployment in the first place you have to answer a couple questions before filing.  One of them is, that you "are able and available to work."  If you refuse to return to work then you are required to answer no to that question.

I'm not that familiar with the specific support programs for small businesses, but it's not really relevant to my question.

The point is that you suggested we leave it up to the people, instead of government deciding.  In my examples, we're really not leaving it up to the people at all.  The business owner who doesn't feel safe no longer has a choice once "government opens back up".  The employee with Cystic Fibrosis no longer has a choice, once the business is open again.

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Quote

 

Stay-at-home orders intended to curb the spread of the coronavirus could end up causing “irreparable damage” if imposed for too long, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said.

“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” he told CNBC.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

I'm not that familiar with the specific support programs for small businesses, but it's not really relevant to my question.

The point is that you suggested we leave it up to the people, instead of government deciding.  In my examples, we're really not leaving it up to the people at all.  The business owner who doesn't feel safe no longer has a choice once "government opens back up".  The employee with Cystic Fibrosis no longer has a choice, once the business is open again.

What would you do if you had control?  How long would you keep everything locked down?  At some point if we stay locked down too long you're looking at another Great Depression.

The death toll from that will be orders of magnitude higher than what COVID ever did.

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8 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

I'm not that familiar with the specific support programs for small businesses, but it's not really relevant to my question.

The point is that you suggested we leave it up to the people, instead of government deciding.  In my examples, we're really not leaving it up to the people at all.  The business owner who doesn't feel safe no longer has a choice once "government opens back up".  The employee with Cystic Fibrosis no longer has a choice, once the business is open again.

Then those people don't need to open their business or go back to work.  They need to make personal decisions.

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1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

What would you do if you had control?  How long would you keep everything locked down?  At some point if we stay locked down too long you're looking at another Great Depression.

The death toll from that will be orders of magnitude higher than what COVID ever did.

I would have ramped up testing and contact tracing as priority one, since February.

I would mandate masks in all public, indoor locations.  No shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service.

I would increase government support for small businesses and workers, especially those with comorbidities.

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2 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

Then those people don't need to open their business or go back to work.  They need to make personal decisions.

How will they pay for food, housing, etc.?

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7 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

How will they pay for food, housing, etc.?

The unemployment compensation benefits are designed as a safeguard for people who have unexpectedly lost their jobs and who need assistance until they can find new employment.  That's why one of the questions is are you able and available for work.  If you're not, then you need to apply for other assistance programs like disability.  

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7 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

The unemployment compensation benefits are designed as a safeguard for people who have unexpectedly lost their jobs and who need assistance until they can find new employment.  That's why one of the questions is are you able and available for work.  If you're not, then you need to apply for other assistance programs like disability.  

I understand what unemployment is and how it works.  I'm countering the suggestion that we should leave decisions on reopening to the individuals.

I believe your argument is "if government mandates that business X be closed, then government is effectively making the decision for that business owner and employees".  Correct me if that's not the case.

My counter to that is "if government refuses to provide support for employees of business X that can't work or don't feel safe working, then government is effectively making the decision for that business owner and employees".

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13 hours ago, tonydead said:

Yeah, F contract tracing. Nobody is going to get any info from me over the phone. And if they ask for a name and phone number at a restaurant I am going to give them the name and number of one of the idiot legislators pushing this idea.  

Yeah, i guess some people really don't care about preventing the spread.  Its  important to make it difficult for the government to know where you ate dinner (and maybe got sick) and figure out who else may have been exposed.  FREEDOM!

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2 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

I understand what unemployment is and how it works.  I'm countering the suggestion that we should leave decisions on reopening to the individuals.

I believe your argument is "if government mandates that business X be closed, then government is effectively making the decision for that business owner and employees".  Correct me if that's not the case.

My counter to that is "if government refuses to provide support for employees of business X that can't work or don't feel safe working, then government is effectively making the decision for that business owner and employees".

If you understand how unemployment works then you should be able to answer your own question.  Unemployment is for people who want to work but can't.  If you are scared to work or refuse to work, then you should try Welfare.  

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19 hours ago, Politician Spock said:

Virus mutation is normal and frequent for most viruses. Most mutations are harmless. 

I'd guess that natural selection would favor mutations that make the virus more contagious and less deadly.

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4 hours ago, Rich Conway said:

I would have ramped up testing and contact tracing as priority one, since February.

I would mandate masks in all public, indoor locations.  No shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service.

I would increase government support for small businesses and workers, especially those with comorbidities.

:lmao:. Masks.   Masks would have solved everything.  lol

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1 hour ago, moleculo said:

Yeah, i guess some people really don't care about preventing the spread.  Its  important to make it difficult for the government to know where you ate dinner (and maybe got sick) and figure out who else may have been exposed.  FREEDOM!

:lmao:. We lost control of the spread months ago. 

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2 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:

If you understand how unemployment works then you should be able to answer your own question.  Unemployment is for people who want to work but can't.  If you are scared to work or refuse to work, then you should try Welfare.  

I know you understand the point I'm getting at.  There is a large group of people who would be better off economically if their business remains "shut down".  Should those people receive any support at all or should they be left to fend for themselves?

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2 hours ago, Snotbubbles said:

If you understand how unemployment works then you should be able to answer your own question.  Unemployment is for people who want to work but can't.  If you are scared to work or refuse to work, then you should try Welfare.  

To be fair the pandemic version of unemployment does cover some, though it lets the states make the determination, about feeling safe at work.  Heck you can even get the pandemic part is certain states if childcare is an issue because of school being shutdown or the lack of daycare availability.  I think it could be considered unreasonable or ignorant to not see this wave of unemployment as a different animal than most others.

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How does being furloughed work?

As I understand it you are counted as unemployed but still somewhat attached to the company that furloughed you, in that they can call you back up with a little notice.

I'm guessing they are not required to do so, right? Some companies/services furloughed people because of the shelter in place orders or the social distancing requirements, others because of dropping economic activity.

Are there any statistics that say how many now filing for unemployment are in eihter category?

I'd venture that those in the former category are less likely to remain unemployed than the latter, at least in the short term after "reopening" 

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Economists at U of Wyoming estimated the economic benefits from lives saved (by flattening the curve) outweighed the projected massive hit to the nation’s economy — by a staggering $5.2 trillion. The cure is not worse than the problem:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/23/government-has-spent-decades-studying-what-life-is-worth-it-hasnt-made-difference-covid-19-crisis/

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Suicides are on the rise. A northern California hospital claimed to have seen a years worth of suicide attempts in the last 4 weeks. :(

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1 minute ago, Max Power said:

Suicides are on the rise. A northern California hospital claimed to have seen a years worth of suicide attempts in the last 4 weeks. :(

That's a shame....but those people might have just wanted to kill themselves anyway. 

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4 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

That's a shame....but those people might have just wanted to kill themselves anyway. 

Unintended consequences of shutting down the country. Something government should also consider when they push the stay safe, stay home message. 

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6 hours ago, JbizzleMan said:

Economists at U of Wyoming estimated the economic benefits from lives saved (by flattening the curve) outweighed the projected massive hit to the nation’s economy — by a staggering $5.2 trillion. The cure is not worse than the problem:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/23/government-has-spent-decades-studying-what-life-is-worth-it-hasnt-made-difference-covid-19-crisis/

Smart folks at my alma mater 

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1 hour ago, Max Power said:
1 hour ago, Thunderlips said:

That's a shame....but those people might have just wanted to kill themselves anyway. 

Unintended consequences of shutting down the country. Something government should also consider when they push the stay safe, stay home message.

I think point being made is like those claiming that people sick with something else but died of Covid should not be “counted” as a covid death this would fall into that same category. 
 

*for the record I’m not in either of these camps. My belief is  a Covid death is a Covid death, regardless. And I’m guessing suicides are likely up due to the lock down.  

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1 hour ago, Thunderlips said:

That's a shame....but those people might have just wanted to kill themselves anyway. 

well played

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3 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

I think point being made is like those claiming that people sick with something else but died of Covid should not be “counted” as a covid death this would fall into that same category. 
 

*for the record I’m not in either of these camps. My belief is  a Covid death is a Covid death, regardless. And I’m guessing suicides are likely up due to the lock down.  

Suicides, domestic abuse, substance abuse and weight gain are all real issues people are dealing with now because of the lockdown. 

These are things people need to consider when they push for us to stay quarantined longer. These are things that can have lasting effects on currently healthy people for years to come. 

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12 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

I think point being made is like those claiming that people sick with something else but died of Covid should not be “counted” as a covid death this would fall into that same category. 
 

  

The point being made was a play on the "covid only kills old people who would have died anyway"

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11 minutes ago, the moops said:

The point being made was a play on the "covid only kills old people who would have died anyway"

Who's point are you referring to?

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14 minutes ago, the moops said:

The point being made was a play on the "covid only kills old people who would have died anyway"

That’s exactly what I said.  

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18 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Suicides, domestic abuse, substance abuse and weight gain are all real issues people are dealing with now because of the lockdown. 

These are things people need to consider when they push for us to stay quarantined longer. These are things that can have lasting effects on currently healthy people for years to come.

I’m not saying we should stay locked down but suicides, domestic abuse, substance abuse and weight gain are all real issues people are dealing with regardless of Covid.  

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1 minute ago, dkp993 said:

I’m not saying we should stay locked down but suicides, domestic abuse, substance abuse and weight gain are all real issues people are dealing with regardless of Covid.  

Yes and statics are showing the lockdown has exacerbated these issues. 

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Just now, Max Power said:

Yes and statics are showing the lockdown has exacerbated these issues. 

Yep.  And statistics are saying that Covid has killed right at 100k Americans. This is the very definition of a lose lose situation.  There are no good answers here, only bad ones.  

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Is there any data (other than anecdotal) saying that people are committing suicide because of the lockdown rather than the raging pandemic devastating the Earth right now?

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4 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Yep.  And statistics are saying that Covid has killed right at 100k Americans. This is the very definition of a lose lose situation.  There are no good answers here, only bad ones.  

I support people doing what's best for them. The government shouldnt be telling people what they can and cant do. 

 

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1 minute ago, Max Power said:

The government shouldnt be telling people what they can and cant do.

You're not really into law and order, are you?  Like deep down?

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3 minutes ago, msommer said:

You're not really into law and order, are you?  Like deep down?

I support sensible rules and regulations.

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19 minutes ago, msommer said:

Is there any data (other than anecdotal) saying that people are committing suicide because of the lockdown rather than the raging pandemic devastating the Earth right now?

Yeah.  Not sure I'd run with what one hospital is saying.

In April I read suicides were down, but a lot's changed since then.

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14 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I support people doing what's best for them. The government shouldnt be telling people what they can and cant do. 

 

So, open borders then? I'm kidding. Mostly.

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18 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I support people doing what's best for them. The government shouldnt be telling people what they can and cant do. 

 

Yes I agree, except under the most extreme of circumstances.  When this first broke and we didn’t know what it was it was extreme.  Now that we have the data and know far more it no longer qualifies.  

These answers are not black and white, everyone on all sides would be wise to remember that.  

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21 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I support people doing what's best for them. The government shouldnt be telling people what they can and cant do. 

 

So, get rid of laws and the government?

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16 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I support sensible rules and regulations.

Or in other words “the government telling people what they can and can’t do”. 

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56 minutes ago, msommer said:

Is there any data (other than anecdotal) saying that people are committing suicide because of the lockdown rather than the raging pandemic devastating the Earth right now?

Colorado suicides are DOWN 40% but crisis related calls up 48%

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1 hour ago, Max Power said:
1 hour ago, the moops said:

The point being made was a play on the "covid only kills old people who would have died anyway"

Who's point are you referring to?

You are in this thread often. There are several posters stating that this is really only killing the super old and sickly people and they likely would have died soon anyway. They don't come out and say it, but reading between the lines is "open this up and sorry that old people die but they are gonna die soon anyway"

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