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Has the cure become worse than the disease?

Has the cure become worse than the disease?  

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4 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

And from what I can see those numbers are going down.

What does anyone know?  Here in my State they were predicting up to 20K to 30K dead.   We've had like 200.  So while we shouldn't do nothing, completely shutting down our economy based on exaggerated numbers seems like folly. 

No one knows what the future will hold so all we can do is estimate.  Do you really think a 2nd Great Depression wouldn't be as bad as COVID-19?

In terms of death? No I don't. 

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1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

And from what I can see those numbers are going down.

What does anyone know?  Here in my State they were predicting up to 20K to 30K dead.   We've had like 200.  So while we shouldn't do nothing, completely shutting down our economy based on exaggerated numbers seems like folly. 

No one knows what the future will hold so all we can do is estimate.  Do you really think a 2nd Great Depression wouldn't be as bad as COVID-19?

I have no clue, and I’m not being argumentative just to be clear.  I’m just trying to figure it and am trying to understand how people are coming up with the numbers to decide one way or another.  

You’re right the numbers are likely to be coming down, but that’s solely due to our current actions.  What they could have been (or will be again?) once we change our current lock down behavior is really unknown.  As is what a GD2 damage would be.

Both are awful, and how we reconcile either is a question we will wrestle with for decades I imagine.  

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1 minute ago, GoBirds said:

Forcing wellness programs upon employees violated federal laws.  Here’s an example. 
 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/12/02/367842386/government-says-bosses-cant-force-workers-to-get-health-tests

A little different when talking about blood pressure, cholesterol, BMI etc which only affect that person health wise. Not a pandemic that is easily transmitted from person to person. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, msudaisy26 said:

A little different when talking about blood pressure, cholesterol, BMI etc which only affect that person health wise. Not a pandemic that is easily transmitted from person to person. 

Sure and there may be angles to take on this but as seen in link these companies hoping to survive will be opening themselves up to litigation(unless laws change). Time is of the essence and the “employers should just make them” isn’t reality in our country. At least not without a legal mess, but it sounds good. 

Edited by GoBirds

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Before we argue about mandatory testing, can we at least have voluntary testing?  As in, anyone who wants a test can get a test (as was promised weeks or months ago). 

Can we at least get to that?

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, msudaisy26 said:

In terms of death? No I don't. 

I do. The death and suffering from a second great depression will make covid19 look like a common cold.

Edited by BladeRunner
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9 minutes ago, moleculo said:

Before we argue about mandatory testing, can we at least have voluntary testing?  As in, anyone who wants a test can get a test (as was promised weeks or months ago). 

Can we at least get to that?

If I may speak for Trump supporters, NO.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Mister CIA said:

If I may speak for Trump supporters, NO.

You can't and never will speak for Trump supporters. We'll need someone that's a little less prone to hysteria and hyperbole.

So save the drama for your mama.

Edited by BladeRunner
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7 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I do. The death and suffering from a second great depression will make covid19 look like a common cold.

Again not trying to be argumentative but how do you come to this opinion?

My business has been devastated by this, so I have a vested interest in opening up as quickly as possible, I want it to happen as badly as anybody.  What I’m trying to figure out is how anyone has a foot squarely in either camp right now and can make definite statements like yours (or the other way too). There’s far more unknown then known  But what is known is this disease spreads like wildfire and kills. We know that because of the numbers we have now.  

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7 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

You can't and never will speak for Trump supporters. We'll need someone that's a little less prone to hysteria and hyperbole.

So save the drama for your mama.

What are your thoughts on pervasive testing?

Are you for, or do you just want to engage in argument?

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People seem to be offended when you try to do analysis on the economic impact vs. saving lives as if we can spend unlimited amounts on saving each individual.  Science, doctors, politicians, regulators, courts do this all the time.  

In order to figure out if a medical treatment or some road safety project is justified they will estimate what they call quality-adjusted life-year (QALY) they could potentially save vs. the estimated cost.  A standard threshold which is commonly used is $129k per QALY, which is based on the cost-effectiveness of dialysis.  Kind of arbitrary, but common.  Here is the study which is the latest update to that standard.

An Empiric Estimate of the Value of Life: Updating the Renal Dialysis Cost-Effectiveness Standard

 

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27 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

I do. The death and suffering from a second great depression will make covid19 look like a common cold.

Out of curiosity, what are the death stats from the first one? I did some digging, and found that as bad as the Depression was, death rates didn't really change beyond suicides.

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11 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Again not trying to be argumentative but how do you come to this opinion?

My business has been devastated by this, so I have a vested interest in opening up as quickly as possible, I want it to happen as badly as anybody.  What I’m trying to figure out is how anyone has a foot squarely in either camp right now and can make definite statements like yours (or the other way too). There’s far more unknown then known  But what is known is this disease spreads like wildfire and kills. We know that because of the numbers we have now.  

I don't think there would be as much death because of how far we have advanced since the 1930's.

I am having a tough time finding reliable info on death tolls from the 1930's depression (I am not an expert on the subject and I am getting ranges from 7 million people to the depression actually increasing the mortality rate.) There is also very little info on death tolls cause by our more recent depression in 2008. 

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5 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

People seem to be offended when you try to do analysis on the economic impact vs. saving lives as if we can spend unlimited amounts on saving each individual.  Science, doctors, politicians, regulators, courts do this all the time.  

In order to figure out if a medical treatment or some road safety project is justified they will estimate what they call quality-adjusted life-year (QALY) they could potentially save vs. the estimated cost.  A standard threshold which is commonly used is $129k per QALY, which is based on the cost-effectiveness of dialysis.  Kind of arbitrary, but common.  Here is the study which is the latest update to that standard.

An Empiric Estimate of the Value of Life: Updating the Renal Dialysis Cost-Effectiveness Standard

 

It is pretty easy to get offended when and I am paraphrasing,you suggest stuff about it mostly killing people over 70 and they only have 5 year left anyway. 

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4 hours ago, Apple Jack said:

The need for testing is a talking point? Good lord. Oxygen for humans? Lib conspiracy talking point!

Seriously.  Biden could run a campaign that water is good for you and we'd see a lot of dehydrated Republicans in response.  

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, msudaisy26 said:

It is pretty easy to get offended when and I am paraphrasing,you suggest stuff about it mostly killing people over 70 and they only have 5 year left anyway. 

To analyze the cost-effectiveness of a course of action, that is how it is done all the time.   We could have saved a lot more lives spending the $2.2 Trillion stimulus on something else.    

Edited by jon_mx

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1 hour ago, BladeRunner said:

I do. The death and suffering from a second great depression will make covid19 look like a common cold.

Link?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

To analyze the cost-effectiveness of a course of action, that is how it is done all the time.   We could have save a lot more lives spending the $2.2 Trillion stimulus on something else.    

You don't know this and no one else could either. This pandemic isn't complete yet and you can't know how many more people would have gotten the virus and died without the stimulus package that has allowed so many people to stay home and keep their distance. 

Edited by msudaisy26

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26 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

People seem to be offended when you try to do analysis on the economic impact vs. saving lives as if we can spend unlimited amounts on saving each individual.  Science, doctors, politicians, regulators, courts do this all the time.  

In order to figure out if a medical treatment or some road safety project is justified they will estimate what they call quality-adjusted life-year (QALY) they could potentially save vs. the estimated cost.  A standard threshold which is commonly used is $129k per QALY, which is based on the cost-effectiveness of dialysis.  Kind of arbitrary, but common.  Here is the study which is the latest update to that standard.

An Empiric Estimate of the Value of Life: Updating the Renal Dialysis Cost-Effectiveness Standard

 

Yeah, I disagree with you on a lot of things, including many things you've said in this thread, but you're absolutely right that we put a value on human life all the time in our society. One that has always stuck with me is that school buses don't have seatbelts because it's a relatively safe form of transportation, and the cost of putting them in every bus is way more than the total value of the lives it would save.

My main point of contention with you is that I don't think our current situation is a clean trade-off between the two, because if we don't have exogenous confidence-building measures any attempt to re-open our economy will end up hurting both public health as well as economic well-being. But to the extent that there is a trade-off, it is not inherently immoral.

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1 hour ago, Mister CIA said:

If I may speak for Trump supporters, NO.

Exactly.   Trump supporters seem to want to just open right back up.  Business as usual.  In regards to information, less is more,  

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45 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

People seem to be offended when you try to do analysis on the economic impact vs. saving lives as if we can spend unlimited amounts on saving each individual.  Science, doctors, politicians, regulators, courts do this all the time.  

In order to figure out if a medical treatment or some road safety project is justified they will estimate what they call quality-adjusted life-year (QALY) they could potentially save vs. the estimated cost.  A standard threshold which is commonly used is $129k per QALY, which is based on the cost-effectiveness of dialysis.  Kind of arbitrary, but common.  Here is the study which is the latest update to that standard.

An Empiric Estimate of the Value of Life: Updating the Renal Dialysis Cost-Effectiveness Standard

 

Trump Death Panels?  I thought you guys said that was bad when you said Obamacare would lead to that.  

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7 hours ago, Mr Anonymous said:

We don't usually blink at things that kill 40,000 people either. If we hit 60K on this, it will equal a really bad flu season. That's not saying this is the equivalent of the flu in terms of danger. This is clearly more contagious if not more deadly if contracted. You tell me why something that rarely kills young, healthy people has made us so powerless to common sense combative measures.

We do when it occurs within a 45 day window, no?

Ah yes, the flu season mantra, still going with that? ....if it killed 60,000 inside of 60 days I think we would pay more attention, no?  

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2 minutes ago, eurotrashman said:

We do when it occurs within a 45 day window, no?

Ah yes, the flu season mantra, still going with that? ....if it killed 60,000 inside of 60 days I think we would pay more attention, no?  

It's like you just read that parts that suited you. Par for the course here.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Mr Anonymous said:

It's like you just read that parts that suited you. Par for the course here.

Par for course that your posts are systematically devoid of all context, if not outright deliberate misinformation.

This COVID19 stuff you post in 2020 would make he flat earthers blush.

Edited by cobalt_27
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1 hour ago, workdog3 said:

Seriously.  Biden could run a campaign that water is good for you and we'd see a lot of dehydrated Republicans in response.  

Water. Like out the toilet?

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8 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Water. Like out the toilet?

Call it by its real name: Dihydrogen monoxide!

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18 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Water. Like out the toilet?

Im just waiting for Trump to tell us Brawndo is the cure.

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1 minute ago, moleculo said:

Im just waiting for Trump to tell us Brawndo is the cure.

It does have what plants crave.

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23 hours ago, TripItUp said:

Would you trade 22 million jobs for 1 life?

Would you let me pay for a flight and a cruise for you to go on to help spur the economy?

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8 hours ago, moleculo said:

Im just waiting for Trump to tell us Brawndo is the cure.

Can’t wait

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34 minutes ago, Osaurus said:

that's awesome.  Is someone actially selling that?

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, moleculo said:

that's awesome.  Is someone actially selling that?

Yes. Local Tampa brewery. Both are actually quite good. 
 

ETA: I just took this pic of what I have left of each kind. 

Edited by Osaurus

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3 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

:lmao: Awesome.  Are they any good?

The one on the left is green in color and actually one of my local favorites. It usually sells out fast.  Pic. The fruit punch one on the right isn’t bad, but the green one (made with blue Gatorade) is better imo. 

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42 minutes ago, Osaurus said:

The one on the left is green in color and actually one of my local favorites. It usually sells out fast.  Pic. The fruit punch one on the right isn’t bad, but the green one (made with blue Gatorade) is better imo. 

An actual example of the cure being worse than the disease :P

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10 hours ago, msudaisy26 said:

You don't know this and no one else could either. This pandemic isn't complete yet and you can't know how many more people would have gotten the virus and died without the stimulus package that has allowed so many people to stay home and keep their distance. 

I hope someone has a decent idea on how many lives are being saved and we didn't spend $2.2T blindly.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, dgreen said:

I hope someone has a decent idea on how many lives are being saved and we didn't spend $2.2T blindly.

What would it have to be for you to determine it was worth it? 

Edited by workdog3

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Just now, workdog3 said:

What would it have to be for you to determine it was worth it?

No idea.

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Just now, dgreen said:

No idea.

On a per person basis, what's the number you'd put on one of your parents?  How about your kids?

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Just now, workdog3 said:

On a per person basis, what's the number you'd put on one of your parents?  How about your kids?

Again, no idea.

Where is this questioning headed?

 

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Just now, dgreen said:

Again, no idea.

Where is this questioning headed?

 

You said you hoped someone knows how many lives were being saved for $2.2T as if to imply there was some sort of value that needs to be met.  I'm trying to see where that value is for you.  

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2 minutes ago, workdog3 said:

You said you hoped someone knows how many lives were being saved for $2.2T as if to imply there was some sort of value that needs to be met.  I'm trying to see where that value is for you.  

Yes, I think it would be good if the government knew a ballpark number being saved before spending $2.2T. The government already has values for lives that I assume they use in situations like this. It seems obvious to me that there is some sort of value that needs to be met. Doesn't mean I know what that value is and I'm glad it's not my decision. I'm glad it's really not even something that I have to contemplate.

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15 hours ago, BladeRunner said:

If people think COVID-19 killed a lot of people, just thing of how many another Great Depression will take out.

There is a balance here.  I know there are people who are actively rooting for America to fail so they can install some Socialist regime, but we cannot take out the largest economy in the world for too long.  If that Great Depression hits, these same people who called for us stay closed even longer are going to turn 180 degrees and blame Trump for not opening up the economy sooner (even though it's mostly the states who have a great control over this).

Anything to get Trump, I guess.

At this point, we can't risk our economy much longer.

Good grief.  Who do you know that think this way?

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1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

Good grief.  Who do you know that think this way?

I don’t want America to fail and I don’t want a fully socialist regime but I am hopeful this experience will lead us on the path to single payer health care, a stronger safety net, and greatly diminished income inequality.  In BladeRunner’s eyes I think that counts as socialism.

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I mean seriously - do people actually know others who are:

1.  Rooting for America to fail?

2.  Rooting against a cure?

3.  Cheering for more deaths?

 

 

These are the types of insinuations that I see when I come into these threads.   Maybe either provide a link of somebody saying that or doing that (and even if you do happen to find one, don't pretend it's more than one or two nutters) or maybe take a deep breath and not post that type of junk.    0 chance we can talk seriously about this if you actually believe there are a lot a people in this country that are doing any of the above 3 things.  

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2 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I don’t want America to fail and I don’t want a fully socialist regime but I am hopeful this experience will lead us on the path to single payer health care, a stronger safety net, and greatly diminished income inequality.  In BladeRunner’s eyes I think that counts as socialism.

Yeah, but there is a big chasm between thinking some of those programs could help the situation now and in the future vs. rooting for America to fail.  

 Words matter, and some of the wording thrown around in these threads is sickening.  

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Yeah, but there is a big chasm between thinking some of those programs could help the situation now and in the future vs. rooting for America to fail.  

 Words matter, and some of the wording thrown around in these threads is sickening.  

Wait....You're only sickened now?  How long have you been here? 

Do you have any words for the 3.5 years of sickening insults and disgusting comparisons made about Trump voters?

Edited by BladeRunner
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