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Ghost Rider

Team Sport GOAT's - who is the best?

Which of these choices is the GOAT in his sport by the widest margin?  

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12 minutes ago, otb_lifer said:

when ya gotta get pulled for Corey ####in Schlessinger on short yardage and GL you're not the greatest. 

most electrifying? ok. 

but not greatest. 

just stop.

Lol. Ok then. Pulling Barry on short yardage was like pulling Brady on field goal attempts. 

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2 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

Lol. Ok then. Pulling Barry on short yardage was like pulling Brady on field goal attempts. 

yep. 

totally equal. 

great point! 

:popcorn:

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11 minutes ago, Foosball God said:

Meh, being a better athlete doesn't mean he was the greatest football player.

au contraire

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1 hour ago, The General said:

In 1920 Babe Ruth hit 54 home runs. This was more than any team (not counting the New York Yankees who he played for) other than the Philadelphia Phillies who hit 64 as a team that year.

Also a dominate pitcher.

And obese.

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Posted (edited)

It's kind of funny that despite decades of so many players artificially putting up huge numbers, the consensus GOAT in baseball is still a pudgy guy who was known for chugging beers and eating hot dogs.

Edited by Ghost Rider
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52 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

Gretzky definitely deserves the vote.  Just to pick nits, that oilers team was probably a championship contender even without him. Fuhr, Coffey, messier, kurri, Anderson, among others.  That team is squarely among the best sports dynasties of all time. 

They proved that in 1990, when Gretzky had already moved on to LA and the Messier-led team with many of the core left intact, plus a bunch of new young guys, won the Cup. 

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12 minutes ago, otb_lifer said:
15 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

Lol. Ok then. Pulling Barry on short yardage was like pulling Brady on field goal attempts. 

yep. 

totally equal. 

great point! 

:popcorn:

I always felt like the Barry Sanders short yardage criticism was unfair. Early in his career, he had success. He had 11 1-yard TDs in his first four seasons, which was tied for 7th during that time span. Utilizing a goal-line RB just never sat right with me.

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Posted (edited)

Edit: oops missed team

Edited by belljr

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This is actually closer than I thought.

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Just now, belljr said:

I think Woods/Nicklaus should be on the list 

I won't argue which one

Each pretty much negates the other - right?

If the idea is "who is the greatest - by the greatest margin" - then the difference between Woods/Nicklaus would be close to negligible in your post.

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Posted (edited)

Michael with The "Great One" right there.

 

Brady? Come on.

 

The Babe was great.....for his time. I could not see that in the modern day era. Forget even today. I am talking 70’s, 80’s and 90’s baseball. But he was simply incredible back in “his” time. No question the most dominate of his era. 

 

Michael and Wayne dominate today even more than in their era.  Pure dominance. 

 

Brady would be a tuna fish sandwich if he played in the 80’s and 90’s. Pure product of the rules and system. Period. I can name several QB's are simply better football players, better passers...just simply better. 

Edited by Todem

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It’s impossible to compare across era IMO. Ruth dominated his era more than the other three by a wide margin.

Brady as the GOAT QB is quite debatable. Not too many people think Jerry Rice has peers. And I don’t think of Jerry as the NFL GOAT. Brady as the GOAT NFL player because....rings? It’s the best marriage in league history. I think 12 is #4 on this list.

Between the Great One and MJ, it’s 99 by a pretty good margin over 23.

Ruth

Gretzky 

 

Jordan

 

 

Brady

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44 minutes ago, otb_lifer said:

yep. 

totally equal. 

great point! 

:popcorn:

Quick - how many TDs did Schlesinger run for while Barry was on the Lions? 

I think I remember Barry being pulled on the GL for Cory once. But if that's the criteria you're using against Barry, have at it.

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6 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

Quick - how many TDs did Schlesinger run for while Barry was on the Lions? 

I think I remember Barry being pulled on the GL for Cory once. But if that's the criteria you're using against Barry, have at it.

if you think Sanders is in the convo for greatest ever football player, have at it. 

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51 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

And obese.

Imagine what he would do with a diet that didn't consist of 8 hot dogs and a gallon of beer.

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22 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

It’s impossible to compare across era IMO. Ruth dominated his era more than the other three by a wide margin.

Brady as the GOAT QB is quite debatable. Not too many people think Jerry Rice has peers. And I don’t think of Jerry as the NFL GOAT. Brady as the GOAT NFL player because....rings? It’s the best marriage in league history. I think 12 is #4 on this list.

Between the Great One and MJ, it’s 99 by a pretty good margin over 23.

Ruth

Gretzky 

 

Jordan

 

 

Brady

Disagree here.  Not sure how Gretzky didn't dominate his era just as much if not more.

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4 minutes ago, The General said:

Imagine what he would do with a diet that didn't consist of 8 hot dogs and a gallon of beer.

He would have been miserable so he probably would have sucked.  Women, beer, and hot dogs were his power.

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1 minute ago, Foosball God said:

Disagree here.  Not sure how Gretzky didn't dominate his era just as much if not more.

Was he an all star defenseman or Vezina trophy winner for 5-6 years before he became the best center of all time? Did he have more assists / points than entire teams?

I’m being facetious, but serous Q for you.

How did 1980s NHL scoring compare to the Howe era? Or today’s game? Honest Q, IDK, but it seems like it was significantly higher at his peak. Maybe I’m wrong.

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Name a record Jordan holds

In fact name a statistic where he's top 3 all time, single season or career.  

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Ruth hit 15 HR's in 41 World Series games, hit .330 in those games.

He also pitched 29 scoreless innings :lol:

Gretz only one who comes close to this level of domination.

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2 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Name a record Jordan holds

In fact name a statistic where he's top 3 all time, single season or career.  

 10 scoring titles to start

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14 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Was he an all star defenseman or Vezina trophy winner for 5-6 years before he became the best center of all time? Did he have more assists / points than entire teams?

I’m being facetious, but serous Q for you.

How did 1980s NHL scoring compare to the Howe era? Or today’s game? Honest Q, IDK, but it seems like it was significantly higher at his peak. Maybe I’m wrong.

NHL league goal average by year

wonder if there are hockey equivalents to SABRheads in baseball who can interpolate Gretzky’s adjusted dominance relative to the increase in scoring during his early to peak years?

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1 minute ago, The General said:

Ruth hit 15 HR's in 41 World Series games, hit .330 in those games.

He also pitched 29 scoreless innings :lol:

Gretz only one who comes close to this level of domination.

it's ridiculous ... imagine Sandy Koufax giving up pitching after four years then turning into Hank Aaron. 

:coffee:

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I didn't realize Jordan was 5th for total points but his per game is higher than Kareems

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Just now, otb_lifer said:

it's ridiculous ... imagine Sandy Koufax giving up pitching after four years then turning into Hank Aaron. 

:coffee:

Imagine Ken Dryden turning into Guy LaFleur

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16 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Was he an all star defenseman or Vezina trophy winner for 5-6 years before he became the best center of all time? Did he have more assists / points than entire teams?

I’m being facetious, but serous Q for you.

How did 1980s NHL scoring compare to the Howe era? Or today’s game? Honest Q, IDK, but it seems like it was significantly higher at his peak. Maybe I’m wrong.

He wasn't a multi-position player as you know, but you talked about dominating his era, not dominating someone else's era.

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Posted (edited)

In Gretzky's heyday, Fantasy leagues had to divide him into two players because he was so dominate.  You either drafted Gretzky assists or Gretzky goals.  You were not allowed to get both.  AND they were usually both drafted as first round picks.  Amazing.

Edited by Gally
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2 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Imagine Ken Dryden turning into Guy LaFleur

he didn't?

wait for it ...

i'll take Smitty/Bossy over les Habs duo 

 

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49 minutes ago, otb_lifer said:

if you think Sanders is in the convo for greatest ever football player, have at it. 

I didn't bring him up, but he's definitely in the convo. Recent era I'm probably going LT or Jerry Rice. But it's really hard to compare across positions in football.

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21 minutes ago, Foosball God said:

He wasn't a multi-position player as you know, but you talked about dominating his era, not dominating someone else's era.

He’s dominating this poll in Ruthian fashion 

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Just now, BobbyLayne said:

He’s dominating this poll in Ruthian fashion 

:popcorn:

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A little bit of prejudice here, but in a team game, I can never put a football player over a basketball player or hockey. Each player just doesn't have the same level of impact, they're much more reliant on others. 

Baseball you can, but the era matters. Babe was the best, for reasons already stated. 

Gretzky simply was the GOAT of any team sport. Probably any major sport, team or individual. 

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40 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Name a record Jordan holds

In fact name a statistic where he's top 3 all time, single season or career.  

Salary

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47 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Name a record Jordan holds

In fact name a statistic where he's top 3 all time, single season or career.  

Most NBA Finals MVP awards with 6. (Note: No one else has more than 3)

Most points per game all-time, he is number 1.

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25 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

He’s dominating this poll in Ruthian fashion 

Having your own adjective is way better than a nickname.

Cant believe these poll results. Crazy talk!

 

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44 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

NHL league goal average by year

wonder if there are hockey equivalents to SABRheads in baseball who can interpolate Gretzky’s adjusted dominance relative to the increase in scoring during his early to peak years?

Since I'm a Caps fan, I've compared Ovechkin's goal accomplishments vs Gretzky's based on league averages. Taking their goals/game as a percentage of league average goals/game, Ovechkin had the advantage in seasons 1-4, Gretzky took the lead in seasons 5-9 (season 9 basically being a tie), and now Ovechkin back in the lead, and growing since he hasn't slowed down yet, in seasons 10-15. My guess is he doesn't pass Gretzky for most goals all-time (COVID not helping his chances), but he has a shot. And that would be remarkable given the way the game has changed.

Of course, that's just one aspect of the game. I'm not arguing Ovechkin is greater than Gretzky. That would be dumb. But, an argument can be made that Ovechkin's the better goal scorer.

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Posted (edited)

If you ask 100 sports fans who the top player is in each of the 4 big sports, you’ll hear Ruth/Aaron/Gehrig/Mantle/Bonds/Other, Jordan/Lebron/Kobe/Wilt/other, Brady/Montana/Rice/Sanders/Unitas/other, and Gretzky.  There is no case that can be made at all for any hockey player except him. Gretzky is the GOAT without question

Edited by wlwiles
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1 minute ago, dgreen said:

Since I'm a Caps fan, I've compared Ovechkin's goal accomplishments vs Gretzky's based on league averages. Taking their goals/game as a percentage of league average goals/game, Ovechkin had the advantage in seasons 1-4, Gretzky took the lead in seasons 5-9 (season 9 basically being a tie), and now Ovechkin back in the lead, and growing since he hasn't slowed down yet, in seasons 10-15. My guess is he doesn't pass Gretzky for most goals all-time (COVID not helping his chances), but he has a shot. And that would be remarkable given the way the game has changed.

Of course, that's just one aspect of the game. I'm not arguing Ovechkin is greater than Gretzky. That would be dumb. But, an argument can be made that Ovechkin's the better goal scorer.

Interesting.

That said, there’s probably no one who ever came remotely close in the assists department, right? 

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don't really get the "they didn't have to face today's pitchers" argument.  Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, and Bob Feller threw pretty freakin' hard based on what I've read.

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2 minutes ago, BobbyLayne said:

Interesting.

That said, there’s probably no one who ever came remotely close in the assists department, right? 

Yeah, I'd guess nobody's close in assists even when adjusting for era. And it's possible there are other players that have come close in the goal scoring department when accounting for era, but I only compared Ovechkin and Gretzky.

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When Ruth retired, he had more homers than the next 2 combined.  And say all you want about his era, but he still ranks 10th all-time in batting average, even with a few seasons at the end where he could barely walk.  Last fun fact - he has more triples than any active player, and even more than all-time hit leader Pete Rose, who has 1383 more hits.

All that said, I still voted Gretzky, even though I hate hockey.
 

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Posted (edited)

Ruth played 90 years ago and we are still talking about him in this fashion. 10's of thousands of players have followed him.

It was the only real sport for 40 years of that that people played.

He should be crushing the field here.

Edited by The General
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3 hours ago, Capella said:

I’m sure. I think Jordan is the closest thing to modern play but even the guys he was up against in the 80s were 🗑 

Jordan would demolish his own numbers if he played in today’s cringy era of “basketball”. Without a doubt Lebron James would soil himself on the court. 

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Just now, Tolstoy said:

don't really get the "they didn't have to face today's pitchers" argument.  Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, and Bob Feller threw pretty freakin' hard based on what I've read.

the other factor is that baseball was the only pro game worth a #### at that time ... boxing and horseracing were behind it as #2 and #3 ... no NBA, NFL was filled with meat Packers (literally).

so the overwhelming majority of the land's best athletes all gravitated to baseball ... the cream of the crop. 

there's a reason why so many great names come outta that era ... 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, dgreen said:

Yeah, I'd guess nobody's close in assists even when adjusting for era. And it's possible there are other players that have come close in the goal scoring department when accounting for era, but I only compared Ovechkin and Gretzky.

Unlikely but my base knowledge of hockey lags the other three North American Team Sports. Just back of the napkin / spitballing, Gretzky broke all of Howe’s career records. As great as Mr Hockey was - and Gretzky was always so classy and deferential to his hero - he never had a 50 goal season. Tough guy and excelled on both ends but it’s not close, at all. Rocket, Hull, LaFleur, Mario, bunch of guys I’m forgetting - he dwarfs them.

It’s almost Ruthian.

Edited by BobbyLayne

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Tolstoy said:

don't really get the "they didn't have to face today's pitchers" argument.  Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, and Bob Feller threw pretty freakin' hard based on what I've read.

You think they were throwing a 101 from the left side with a wipeout slider like some of these guys are? No chance. I’m sure they threw hard but there weren’t guns then to measure it. 

Edited by Capella

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Just now, BobbyLayne said:

Unlikely but my base knowledge of hockey lags the other three North American Team Sports. Just back of the napkin / spitballing, Gretzky broke all of Howe’s career records. As great as Mr Hockey was - and Gretzky was always so classy and deferential to his hero - he never had a 50 goal season. Tough guy and excelled on both ends but it’s not close, at all. Rocket, Hull, LaFleur, Mario, bunch of guys I’m forgetting - he dwarfs them.

It’s almost Ruthian.

... Hank Aaron never hit more than 45 HRs in a season - the Gordie Howe of baseball. 

 

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