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Team Sport GOAT's - who is the best? (1 Viewer)

Which of these choices is the GOAT in his sport by the widest margin?

  • Babe Ruth (baseball)

    Votes: 14 14.0%
  • Wayne Gretzky (hockey)

    Votes: 64 64.0%
  • Michael Jordan (basketball)

    Votes: 19 19.0%
  • Tom Brady (football)

    Votes: 3 3.0%

  • Total voters
    100
dgreen said:
Since I'm a Caps fan, I've compared Ovechkin's goal accomplishments vs Gretzky's based on league averages. Taking their goals/game as a percentage of league average goals/game, Ovechkin had the advantage in seasons 1-4, Gretzky took the lead in seasons 5-9 (season 9 basically being a tie), and now Ovechkin back in the lead, and growing since he hasn't slowed down yet, in seasons 10-15. My guess is he doesn't pass Gretzky for most goals all-time (COVID not helping his chances), but he has a shot. And that would be remarkable given the way the game has changed.

Of course, that's just one aspect of the game. I'm not arguing Ovechkin is greater than Gretzky. That would be dumb. But, an argument can be made that Ovechkin's the better goal scorer.
It's easy when 8 sits in the same spot and nobody thinks to put somebody on him. :pokey:

 
The General said:
Ruth played 90 years ago and we are still talking about him in this fashion. 10's of thousands of players have followed him.

It was the only real sport for 40 years of that that people played.

He should be crushing the field here.
But the poll is about closest to #2 of the sport.  Ruth was the best by a wide margin in his era but that has changed.  There are talk of other players being the best in baseball of all time.  It may not be true but there are discussions and people on both sides to have that discussion.  There really isn't another player to discuss when comparing to Gretzky and hockey. 

 
You think they were throwing a 101 from the left side with a wipeout slider like some of these guys are? No chance. I’m sure they threw hard but there weren’t guns then to measure it. 
oh they threw some heat, i assure you ... they also pitched from a 15-20 inch mound, depending on the stadium ... they reduced it to 10" after the Gibby/McLain domination of '68. 

ya know how much more of an advantage that gives a pitcher?

enough that they had to lower it.  

 
Walter Johnson vs Babe Ruth

In 107 at bats, Babe hit .280 with 8 doubles, 2 triples and 7 home runs. He walked 19 times giving Babe an on base percentage of .389, and Ole Walter punched him out 25 times. Not bad, but let’s take a closer look. Babe hit .342 lifetime but Johnson held him 62 points under his lifetime mark. In his career, his home run to at bat ratio was 1 homer in every 11.76 at bats; against Johnson he hit a homer in every 15.29 at bats. Babe whiffed 1 in every 6.43 at bats but when he faced the Big Train, he went down swinging once every 4.28 at bats. Babe’s numbers against Johnson were pretty damn good however, in essence, the Big Train reduced the Sultan of Swat to a mere mortal.

However, there is a flip side. Throughout Johnson’s career, opponents hit .222 against him. He surrendered a total of, ready for this, 97 home runs. THAT’S IT!! That translates to a home run every 227.2 batters! The on base percentage of opposing batters throughout Johnson’s career was .281. So, if you consider that Babe took him deep once every 15.29 at bats and hit him at a .280 clip and got on base 39% of the time then one could conclude that Babe reduced the great Big Train Walter Johnson to a mere mortal as well.

 
oh they threw some heat, i assure you ... they also pitched from a 15-20 inch mound, depending on the stadium ... they reduced it to 10" after the Gibby/McLain domination of '68. 

ya know how much more of an advantage that gives a pitcher?

enough that they had to lower it.  
How can you assure me? You weren’t around for Walter Johnson. I’m sure he was winging it but 92 back then probably seemed like 100 now. 

 
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How can you assure me? You weren’t around for Walter Johnson. I’m sure he was winging it but 92 back then probably seemed like 100 now. 
the one great thing about baseball is that the math/physics of the game really never changed ...

it's still 90' from each base, 60'6" from mound to plate ... and tape measure homers and pitch speed never really deviated, either. 

a fireballer in 1910 most certainly could hit 100+ ... why not?  if your only argument is "NO GUN RECORD, FAIL!" well ...

:unsure:

 
the one great thing about baseball is that the math/physics of the game really never changed ...

it's still 90' from each base, 60'6" from mound to plate ... and tape measure homers and pitch speed never really deviated, either. 

a fireballer in 1910 most certainly could hit 100+ ... why not?  if your only argument is "NO GUN RECORD, FAIL!" well ...

:unsure:
That’s not my argument. It’s that guys are stronger now. How many were breaking 100 in 1986? I believe 13 out of the 15 fastest pitches registered have been since 2000. 

 
Babe last played in 1934.....19 friggin' 34.....

How can you honestly compare any modern day athlete to him? 

The world, league, competition, etc was all so different then. 

 
That’s not my argument. It’s that guys are stronger now. How many were breaking 100 in 1986? I believe 13 out of the 15 fastest pitches registered have been since 2000. 
if all it were about was strength and speed, then the game would look very different than what history has shown. 

what good is 100+ if ya can't get batters out?

what good is strength if ya can't hit a curveball?

 
bostonfred said:
Jordan is first all time in

Career points - no

Career mvps - no

Career titles - no

Career marketing impact - yes
Tied for 10th in rings...

-OZ- said:
A little bit of prejudice here, but in a team game, I can never put a football player over a basketball player or hockey. Each player just doesn't have the same level of impact, they're much more reliant on others. 

Baseball you can, but the era matters. Babe was the best, for reasons already stated. 

Gretzky simply was the GOAT of any team sport. Probably any major sport, team or individual. 
I'll add a Pele' in here if we are expanding the field.  :excited:

But for this poll I agree Gretzky is the clear answer.  The Great One for a reason and hard to make a case against.

 
I'll add a Pele' in here if we are expanding the field.  :excited:

But for this poll I agree Gretzky is the clear answer.  The Great One for a reason and hard to make a case against.


Pele might be the most important athlete ever, world wide. But the margin of greatness of play between him and Diego (from what I've heard, I never watched Pele and am not a futbol fanatic) isn't a much as Gretzky to Howe (and I'm a red wings fan from birth). 

 
Pele might be the most important athlete ever, world wide. But the margin of greatness of play between him and Diego (from what I've heard, I never watched Pele and am not a futbol fanatic) isn't a much as Gretzky to Howe (and I'm a red wings fan from birth). 
And honestly, Messi is right there too. Pele probably still the best, but not more obviously than Gretzky is. 

 
Unlikely but my base knowledge of hockey lags the other three North American Team Sports. Just back of the napkin / spitballing, Gretzky broke all of Howe’s career records. As great as Mr Hockey was - and Gretzky was always so classy and deferential to his hero - he never had a 50 goal season. Tough guy and excelled on both ends but it’s not close, at all. Rocket, Hull, LaFleur, Mario, bunch of guys I’m forgetting - he dwarfs them.

It’s almost Ruthian.
Mario trailed Ovechkin and Gretzky the first 8 seasons in this metric (cumulative player goals per game/cumulative league goals per team per game) but then beats them the rest of his career by a pretty good margin. 

 
That’s not my argument. It’s that guys are stronger now. How many were breaking 100 in 1986? I believe 13 out of the 15 fastest pitches registered have been since 2000. 
Essentially, that's what you're saying with the bolded.

 
but that isn't what the poll is asking.
Seems like these four are mentioned the most in their respective sports nowadays as the GOAT, but which one is the most obvious GOAT in their sport?
Ok, you're right, then it's Gretzky.

However considering the HR record was like 19 (?) when Ruth came on maybe it's still Ruth. But as stated, Gretzky.

 
First doesn't equate to modern, imo. 

Wasn't it something like 1947 before African Americans could even play baseball?
Yes, of course, and it was a much smaller league as well. Same issues with training and that kind of thing. But we'll just get into continued recency sliding like the argument above about goalies with Gretzky, then we can talk Jordan and James, and Brady getting his orb of cleanliness surrounding him in the pocket.

Just look at the records being eclipsed by each before they came in. Brady doesn't even own most records, beyond the Super Bowls and then I'd say let's talk Belichick.

The guy eclipsed the prior home run record by 2.4 times. There's nothing like that ever with anyone.

 
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Why does it talk about team sports and then have basketball there? With that said, went Jordan since I don't watch Hockey.

 
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Please watch this and tell me how Gretzky was impressive at all.  Goalies didn't even know how to skate when he played. Look at the equipment they are wearing. What a joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6WOzWO9v2A
Gretzky was so much better of reading the goalies, defense, bounces, etc and anticipating where the puck would be that he made things look very easy at times.  He was that much better than any other player.

 
One thing Ruth has going for him is you can't accuse him of PEDs. 

Jordan most likely used them (they were very prevalent in sports around 1990 when Jordan started putting on muscle) and I wouldn't be surpised if Brady did too (Peyton Manning got caught with them and he said that his wife ordered them, and if he did them, then I guarntee Brady did too)

 
That video does show the vast difference in goalies then and now. But, it also shows some great plays by Gretzky.
I get the argument that goaltending is better now overall than it used to be, but the 80's gave us Roy (who played for most of 99's career) and the 90's gave us Brodeur and Hasek, and it goes without saying that there hasn't been a goalie since who comes to the greatness of any of those three.

 
One thing Ruth has going for him is you can't accuse him of PEDs. 

Jordan most likely used them (they were very prevalent in sports around 1990 when Jordan started putting on muscle) and I wouldn't be surpised if Brady did too (Peyton Manning got caught with them and he said that his wife ordered them, and if he did them, then I guarntee Brady did too)
Compared to Ruth's days every athlete does something now to enhance performance that were never thought about back then.  Lifting weights, nutrition, stretching, etc.  All of those things are vast improvements over Ruth's days regardless of any PED usage.  I might even say those as a whole did more for enhancing performance over the olden days than what actual PED's on top of it. 

But, again that isn't what the poll is asking about.

 
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Pele might be the most important athlete ever, world wide. But the margin of greatness of play between him and Diego (from what I've heard, I never watched Pele and am not a futbol fanatic) isn't a much as Gretzky to Howe (and I'm a red wings fan from birth). 
Maradona was a great talent.  I do not put him in the same class as Pele who transformed a team at 16 and won 3 World Cups.  Team game for sure but was the catalyst for it all.  I also would have to ask if Maradona did not have the "Hand Of God",  does he win that game let alone the WC?  Most casual fans dont talk about the greatness of his 2nd goal in that game for sure, but again, if he gets called for handball on the first, does the 2nd happen and is he as well known? Not a hill I'd die on, but some doubts that question how close it really is.

And honestly, Messi is right there too. Pele probably still the best, but not more obviously than Gretzky is. 
And Messi and Ronaldo are behind Pele for me.  

I am not disputing Gretzky as the clear choice here.  Just tossing another name in that to me would rival him and be ahead of Ruth whos above Jordan then Brady.

 
That’s not my argument. It’s that guys are stronger now. How many were breaking 100 in 1986? I believe 13 out of the 15 fastest pitches registered have been since 2000. 
Just to play along Ill just say that being very strong doesn't always translate so well to throwers of the ball. Ive never seen a totally jacked pitcher or quarterback who could throw it harder/faster than say a noodle (looking) arm of Aaron Rogers. 

Sorry for mixing in football guys but baseball isn't my sport. 

 
Pele might be the most important athlete ever, world wide. But the margin of greatness of play between him and Diego (from what I've heard, I never watched Pele and am not a futbol fanatic) isn't a much as Gretzky to Howe (and I'm a red wings fan from birth). 


Jackie Robinson and there isn't a close second. 

 
Pele might be the most important athlete ever, world wide. But the margin of greatness of play between him and Diego (from what I've heard, I never watched Pele and am not a futbol fanatic) isn't a much as Gretzky to Howe (and I'm a red wings fan from birth). 


Jackie Robinson and there isn't a close second. 


i'm not a fan, but ... Ali certainly could be  1st 2nd over Pele. 


I''ll  let you guys discuss futbol as I know nothing. As for Ali, I think Ali was a giant Richard for how he treated his fellow man and have always contended that if you let Tyson wail on Ali like Frasier did he wouldn't have won any of those fights. He probably wouldn't have survived honestly. 

I don't hold Ali in very high regard. Hes not on the top of any list other than being a jerk. 

 
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I think Ali was a giant Richard for how he treated his fellow man and have always contended that if you let Tyson wail on Ali like Frasier did he wouldn't have won any of those fights. He probably wouldn't have survived honestly. 
agree, see my post about Ali in the "coolest athlete" thread - as i said, not a fan at all

 

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