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Actual Deaths From Covid-19 vs Reported Deaths (1 Viewer)

Do you believe the number of Americans dying from COVID-19 is more, less, or about the same as the r

  • Actually Are More Deaths Than Are Being Reported

    Votes: 123 51.3%
  • About The Same As Being Reported

    Votes: 63 26.3%
  • Actually Are Less Deaths Than Are Being Reported

    Votes: 54 22.5%

  • Total voters
    240

Joe Bryant

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Staff member
I apologize for what may sound like a callous question but I read a news story today and thought it was important as it relates to this. I hope you know me well enough to know I'd never minimize any death from any cause. 

Please don't google first. Here is the question: "Do you believe the number of Americans dying from COVID-19 is more, less, or about the same as the reported number?"

 
No idea. Voted about the same.

To me there are just too many unknowns statistically to know how bad this is. All I know is it's bad. Trying to insulate myself and family into our own bubble and do our part to minimize outside contact. Hard to do when I have to leave the house everyday for my job. 

Trying not to bring any negativity around the kids to keep their stress to a minimum.

 
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No idea. Voted about the same.

To me there are just too many unknowns statistically to know how bad this is. All I know is it's bad. Trying to insulate myself and family into our own bubble and do our part to minimize outside contact. Hard to do when I have to leave the house everyday for my job. 

Trying not to bring any negativity around the kids to keep their stress to a minimum.
Agreed. On one hand, you have people saying those that die outside of a facility might not be counted. Others say anyone who dies in a facility is counted, regardless of the actual reason they died. To me, we arent talking a huge percentage and its likely irrelevant. 

 
I would say the daily numbers have been politicized (duh) and it’s a matter of POV now. The result is still the same imo and it sucks. 

 
I'll take under reporting. I have a friend that was gravely ill from it and could never get a test in rural California. She even had direct contact with the neighbor of the first person to die here. Additionally, a friends cousin in Vegas couldn't get a test for a week while not being able to function, sleeping 16 hours a day with a 103 temperature and over bearing fatigue. She finally got a test and popped a positive. In her case, it could have easily gotten much worse during that week and would have been written off as something else, as she couldn't even get a GP appointment.

 
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I think the bigger issue is not having enough testing to get a true mortality rate to really know what is going on.  The death numbers are tragic but they are what they are.....people that died.   To know the true concern we need to know accurately how many people have actually had it. 

 
The numbers are absolutely under reported.  US coroners have all but guaranteed it.  They can only list a death as being due to covid if they can confirm that with a test.  There aren’t and haven’t been enough tests to for people that are alive so coroners are not getting the test kits they need.   Also—there are lots of people that die from it at their homes as we are told to stay at  home and self isolate if we think we have it.  Just look at the number of excess deaths this year versus the past few years—they are like more than triple.  As long as there is not massive testing available—the reported numbers by nature will be vastly under the real numbers.   Several weeks into a lockdown and our country’s daily covid death numbers are increasing—so that tells you how seriously this thing needs to be taken. Even when things open back up—please do not let your guards down.  Wear masks and continue to socially distance.  Economic pressure is the only thing that is basically forcing us to start the re-opening process—the science and  numbers do not support re-opening. 

 
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Voted about the same.  I think it's being under reported in some areas and over reported in others. 

 
The numbers are absolutely under reported.  US coroners have all but guaranteed it.  They can only list a death as being due to covid if they can confirm that with a test.  The aren’t and haven’t been enough tests to for people that are alive so coroners are not getting the test kits they need.   Also—there are lots of people that die from it at their homes as we are told to stay at  home and self isolate if we think we have it.  Just look at the number of excess deaths this year versus the past few years—they are like more than triple.  As long as there is not massive testing available—the reported numbers by nature will be vastly under the real numbers.   Several weeks into a lockdown and our country’s daily covid death numbers are increasing—so that tells you how seriously this thing needs to be taken. Even when things open back up—please do not let your guards down.  Wear masks and continue to socially distance.  Economic pressure is the only thing that is basically forcing us to start the re-opening process—the science and  numbers do not. 
These two statements are somewhat contradictory.  Daily death numbers increasing could also be due to testing becoming more prevalent.  Just as you have said, you don't get a positive death until it is tested.  If we are lacking in testing and then have a bunch of testing come through the numbers will increase and it may not be that actual deaths are increasing. 

 
I think the true number of covid infections is way higher than what's being reported, because we're not testing anywhere near enough.

I think the true number of covid deaths is pretty much the same as what's being reported, because you don't need a special test to tell when somebody is dead.

 
Are we talking only about people who died from COVID-19?  Or including people who died because COVID-19 exists?  e.g. people who died of something else because they got inadequate care or because they opted to stay home instead of going to the hospital, etc.?

 
my guess is there's a lot of manipulating of numbers both to over & under report, depending on the municipality.. who wants the numbers massaged.. what under or over reporting means to the bottom line, getting supplies, etc.

 
These two statements are somewhat contradictory.  Daily death numbers increasing could also be due to testing becoming more prevalent.  Just as you have said, you don't get a positive death until it is tested.  If we are lacking in testing and then have a bunch of testing come through the numbers will increase and it may not be that actual deaths are increasing. 
The virus is spreading at a far more exponential rate than what our testing capacity has been increasing at.  The reported numbers are an incomplete lagging indicator—and my guess is that each reported covid death in the US up to this point probably is more accurately like 1.33 deaths.  Do not kid yourself—lots of bodies of the covid related deaths have already been buried or cremated before they were added into the counts.  The strain of covid that is prevalent here is a mutated strain that is far more contagious than the early strain that dominated China and a lot of Asia.   While this means that the fatality rate of those infected will drop—it also means the disease will infect exponentially more people than anticipated.   A small percentage of a huge number is a big number—and the fact that the strain here spreads soo quickly worries me in regards to our healthcare system and capacity. 

https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/study-shows-mutant-coronavirus-has-emerged-even-more-contagious-than-the-original/

 
Historically, pandemic deaths are always revised upward after the outbreak is over and the pathogen is eradicated.

The true scope of a pandemic only becomes clear after it’s over


By Dave Kenney | 05/01/2020

On March 9, 1958, a global flu pandemic unofficially became a national joke. When Americans turned to the funny pages of their Sunday morning newspapers, they found Charlie Brown, the sad sack hero of Minnesotan Charles Schulz’s “Peanuts” comic strip, lamenting his shortcomings on the hockey rink.

“I don’t feel good,” Charlie Brown told his nemesis, Lucy. “I think maybe I’m getting the Asian flu.”

Lucy, as usual, showed no sympathy. She informed her downcast companion that the “Asian flu” was yesterday’s news. “What a guy!” she exclaimed as she walked away. “Everyone else got the Asian flu six months ago, and he’s just getting it now!”

Charlie Brown was left to deliver the punch line to himself. “Good grief!” he sighed. “I can’t even get sick right!”

It was a funny joke — at the time.

A disconnect between perception and reality

But decades later, with the benefit of hindsight, it doesn’t seem quite so funny. That’s because we know something now that Schulz and his readers didn’t know back then. According to the Centers for Disease Control, the “Asian flu” pandemic of 1957 and 1958 killed an estimated 116,000 Americans and around 1.1 million people worldwide. It was one of the worst public health crises of the 20th century. So how did it become the butt of a joke in the Sunday morning comic section? The answer lies in what was, at the time, a widespread public misunderstanding about the scope of the pandemic — a disconnect between perception and reality. It was the kind of disconnect that we should keep in mind today, as we try, in real time, to make sense of the havoc the new coronavirus is causing.

In March 1958, when the “Peanuts” comic strip appeared, the “Asian flu” — an influenza caused by a new strain of the H2N2 virus — was a well-known fact of life in the United States. It had emerged about a year before in Singapore and Hong Kong, and had spread to U.S. coastal cities in the summer of 1957. Scientists determined early on that very few Americans were immune to the new virus, and they raised public alarms about its potential lethality. (They also rushed to create a vaccine that played a crucial role in limiting the virus’ spread.) When the “Asian flu” arrived in Minnesota in September 1957, people were ready for the worst.

But the “Asian flu” never seemed to live up to its advance billing. State and local health officials reported occasional outbreaks, including one that clobbered Minneapolis’ North High School in October, but the information they shared with the public inadvertently downplayed the virus’ severity. Laborious testing protocols made it difficult to confirm that a patient with flu-like symptoms had actually contracted the “Asian flu,” so mortality statistics released to the public included very few “Asian flu” deaths. At the end of 1957, when the pandemic’s first wave had subsided, Minneapolis’s health commissioner reported a total of just 18 confirmed deaths from the new H2N2 virus — a sobering number, certainly, but nothing close to the numbers that Minnesotans had been primed to expect. And the national death toll was similarly underwhelming: about 6,000 deaths attributed to the new H2N2 virus throughout the entire United States.

Determining ‘excess mortality’

So how do we explain the discrepancy between the 6,000 fatalities ascribed to the “Asian flu” at the time of the pandemic, and the 116,000 deaths that the CDC now estimates occurred then? It all comes down to how fatalities are tabulated and estimated. In an ongoing pandemic, death tolls are based on reports of fatalities officially attributed to the pathogen in question. But those real-time numbers almost always turn out to be undercounts. The true scope of a pandemic’s deadly toll becomes clear only after the fact, when experts use statistical modeling to determine “excess mortality” — the number of deaths beyond what would normally be expected. There’s nothing particularly controversial about using excess mortality to estimate the number of people killed in a pandemic. It’s generally considered the most accurate way to express results of what is admittedly an inexact science. And if you compare at-the-time death tolls of other pandemics with after-the-fact estimates based on excess mortality, you see discrepancies similar to the ones that showed up after the 1957-58 “Asian flu” pandemic.

In November 1918, as the second wave of the H1N1 “Spanish flu” pandemic wound down, federal officials reported that the virus had killed about 82,000 Americans. Today, the CDC puts the death toll at 675,000.

In July 2009, toward the end of the first wave of the H1N1 “swine flu” pandemic in the U.S., the government reported 302 deaths attributed to the virus. The CDC now estimates that more than 12,000 Americans died in that pandemic.

The lesson is simple: It’s nearly impossible to know how deadly a pandemic really is while you’re living through it.

If you find yourself wondering whether Minnesota’s relatively low number of confirmed COVID-19 fatalities (so far) suggests the coronavirus has been overhyped, remember the mistake Charlie Brown and Lucy made back in 1958. They dismissed the “Asian flu” as a nuisance to be laughed off, when it was actually killing more than 100,000 Americans. But Schulz didn’t know any better. Nobody did back then. The true scope of the 1957-58 pandemic became clear only with the passage of time and the application of statistical modeling. Now all of us find ourselves in a similar moment of muddled perceptions. Whatever the numbers tell us today about infections and fatalities, they almost certainly represent a significant undercount. It’s a sobering thought, but it’s also a reminder of why we continue to put up with this unprecedented disruption of our lives.

Dave Kenney is a freelance writer specializing in Minnesota history.

https://www.minnpost.com/community-voices/2020/05/the-true-scope-of-a-pandemic-only-becomes-clear-after-its-over/
 
I think the true number of covid infections is way higher than what's being reported, because we're not testing anywhere near enough.

I think the true number of covid deaths is pretty much the same as what's being reported, because you don't need a special test to tell when somebody is dead.
There is a difference between the total number of dead bodies versus the total number of dead bodies where covid likely played a part or was a culprit of that death.   For example—just minutes ago—New York just added 1700 deaths to the death toll because of nursing home deaths that weren’t a part of the reported numbers because they had to wait for enough tests to get results.  They cannot hold dead bodies endlessly—so if they have to bury/cremate them before they can get a test—they don’t get on the covid count.  

 
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Historically, pandemic deaths are always revised upward after the outbreak is over and the pathogen is eradicated.
That story is fascinating because the 50's were widely viewed as a time of prosperity, meanwhile they basically lived through a pandemic that killed north of 100K people in the U.S. as if it was a blip on the radar. Covid-19 is quite a bit more lethal and transmissible, but our reaction and the economic devastation is in stark contrast to that Asian flu reaction of 57-58. Thank goodness we have reacted to this, even in the patchwork way that we have, but the ramifications are hard to fathom. And the parallel to 100K deaths which were basically under the radar in 57-58 is interesting.

 
IMO, there are two reasons why the number of fatalities is very likely inaccurate . . . one on the under reporting and one on the over reporting. Who knows if that will go toward canceling each other out.

On the underreporting side, I am sure there were people that died in the early going that did not even get considered for COVID as it was not widely known yet. There were also people that died when tests were not easily obtainable and who were never tested post mortem. And there were people that died at home that never received medical treatment and thus never made it into a hospital reporting system.

On the overreported side, my wife is a healthcare worker and told me her company will be getting reimbursed for COVID related illnesses and deaths at a higher rate from the government than their normal reimbursement rate. My wife said her healthcare administration workforce has been instructed to list anyone with suspected COVID symptoms or who tests positive and dies as a COVID case. In fact, they don't even want them exploring things and they just want the cases rubber stamped COVID RELATED and move on to something else. It makes for much less work and less cost for them (with more money getting reimbursed anyway). So someone in a car crash that dies and tests COVID positive would get labelled as a COVID fatality. Someone that tested positive but was asymptomatic who committed suicide or OD'd could get reported as a COVID fatality. I have no idea how many fatalities are getting reported that are sketchy, but a fair amount of people getting treated for other health concerns are getting grouped in the COVID category that most likely shouldn't be.

Similarly, with many of the fatalities being the elderly and infirmed, who knows if they were actively dying anyway and if the COVID had anything to do with it. Even the medical community is not 100% on how to classify these deaths.

As I said, I can't really guess if those two groupings cancel each other out.

 
I read an article a few weeks ago in the Wall Street Journal about how Italy was massively underreporting deaths.  Apparently in Italy if someone dies prior to actually being tested for CV19 they are not reported as a CV19 death even if the symptoms make it clear that is what they died from.  The article mentioned entire nursing homes with dozens to hundreds of deaths from an outbreak that counted as zero official CV19 deaths.

My wife works in a hospital so I had her do some asking around to see if that is the same way it works here.  The answer was anecdotal and unofficial but every other doctor she spoke to mentioned that if the person died prior to having the official CV19 test then they are not supposed to code it as a CV19 death.

 
There is a difference between the total number of dead bodies versus the total number of dead bodies where covid likely played a part or was a culprit of that death.   For example—just minutes ago—New York just added 1700 deaths to the death toll because of nursing home deaths that weren’t a part of the reported numbers because they had to wait for enough tests to get results.  They cannot hold dead bodies endlessly—so if they have to bury/cremate them before they can get a test—they don’t get on the covid count.  
If somebody died from complications from bilateral viral pneumonia in the past couple of months, you probably don't need a test to chalk it up as a covid death.  I'm not saying the numbers are perfect -- they never are -- just that they're probably close enough.

 
The number of deaths is highly inflated without question.

If a guy dies in a car accident but he tests positive for Covid, it's counted as a Covid death.

Heck, if you have flu like symptoms and die you're counted as a Covid death even if you aren't tested (CDC guidelines say that if it looks like Covid, call it Covid).

At the end of the year we'll see if there's a spike in the number of TOTAL deaths this year.  That will tell us a lot.

 
The number of deaths is highly inflated without question.

If a guy dies in a car accident but he tests positive for Covid, it's counted as a Covid death.

Heck, if you have flu like symptoms and die you're counted as a Covid death even if you aren't tested (CDC guidelines say that if it looks like Covid, call it Covid).

At the end of the year we'll see if there's a spike in the number of TOTAL deaths this year.  That will tell us a lot.
I think you’re 100%wrong

 
Already happening, all over the world.  It doesn't support your position.
I'm strictly talking about the US.  At the end of the year, the total number of deaths won't have a historically significant rise.
That may be the case, but it will be due to the massive decreases in automobile deaths, workplace deaths, and other deaths which are inversely affected by the shutdowns.

Anyway, :fishing:

 
That may be the case, but it will be due to the massive decreases in automobile deaths, workplace deaths, and other deaths which are inversely affected by the shutdowns.

Anyway, :fishing:
Despite driving being down 50%, Minnesota driving deaths during Covid is up 50%.  :shrug:

 
That may be the case, but it will be due to the massive decreases in automobile deaths, workplace deaths, and other deaths which are inversely affected by the shutdowns.

Anyway, :fishing:
Despite driving being down 50%, Minnesota driving deaths during Covid is up 50%.  :shrug:
The theory is that the reduced traffic is causing people to drive faster. Overall traffic deaths are down, but the fatality rates are up.

 
That may be the case, but it will be due to the massive decreases in automobile deaths, workplace deaths, and other deaths which are inversely affected by the shutdowns.

Anyway, :fishing:
There is also the aspect of deaths due to illness that would have occurred in later months but were accelerated by COVID-19. No overarching point here, just another ingredient in the soup to consider.

 
The number of deaths is highly inflated without question.

If a guy dies in a car accident but he tests positive for Covid, it's counted as a Covid death.

Heck, if you have flu like symptoms and die you're counted as a Covid death even if you aren't tested (CDC guidelines say that if it looks like Covid, call it Covid).

At the end of the year we'll see if there's a spike in the number of TOTAL deaths this year.  That will tell us a lot.
What is your source of evidence for these two claims?

ETA...just saw the claim that the second one comes from the CDC guidelines.  I am not familiar with this guideline.  I will need to dig further.

 
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The theory is that the reduced traffic is causing people to drive faster. Overall traffic deaths are down, but the fatality rates are up.
Which fits with auto accidents being down 30-50% the last month (due to less traffic - no link, this is based on internal insurance industry data I’ve seen).  Fairly common correlation.

 
The theory is that the reduced traffic is causing people to drive faster. Overall traffic deaths are down, but the fatality rates are up.
I was speaking specifically in Minnesota and the link you provided is talking about actual deaths in Minnesota not fatality rates.

 
Underreported:

Testing not widely available until recently - undiagnosed numbers even worse if you're in the earlier-arrival-than-advertised camp.

False negative tests ~30%

People dying before they reach medical care

People dying from causes assumed to be unrelated (e.g., strokes, heart attacks, heart failure, arrhythmias)

Documentation/coding errors

No way a few people gaming the system are creating more fictitious covid than all the above cases we've missed.

 
The number of deaths is highly inflated without question.

If a guy dies in a car accident but he tests positive for Covid, it's counted as a Covid death.

Heck, if you have flu like symptoms and die you're counted as a Covid death even if you aren't tested (CDC guidelines say that if it looks like Covid, call it Covid).

At the end of the year we'll see if there's a spike in the number of TOTAL deaths this year.  That will tell us a lot.
Which state?

 
The number of deaths is highly inflated without question.

If a guy dies in a car accident but he tests positive for Covid, it's counted as a Covid death.

Heck, if you have flu like symptoms and die you're counted as a Covid death even if you aren't tested (CDC guidelines say that if it looks like Covid, call it Covid).

At the end of the year we'll see if there's a spike in the number of TOTAL deaths this year.  That will tell us a lot.
Right now if at my wife's hospital if someone comes in from a nursing home they're automatically assumed to be COVID positive.

 
Again, I don't know how often the following is happening and how widespread it is, but my wife this morning had a case cross her desk. The patient has been in a nursing home and tested COVID positive weeks ago. She was asymptomatic then and never developed any symptoms. She has since developed a urinary track infection and is asymptomatic still. She may or may not be retested. Yet she is getting medically coded as COVID POSITIVE - REQUIRING TREATMENT. She will end up as a statistic on a report that will go to the governor as a COVID case requiring treatment. I have no idea if this is immoral, illegal, or fattening . . . but that's how this one is getting recorded.

Apparently the government is reimbursing my wife's company with a lump sum per COVID case (which is more than they would be getting regularly to have this patient treated). I don't know how they calculated that number. It seems sketchy on the surface, but with so many other medical appointments and procedures not being allowed to occur right now, maybe the government inflated the COVID payouts to make up for the loss of revenue for other procedures. That's why I am not as outraged as my wife is over the recordkeeping and reimbursement process in this type of situation.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I think the true number of covid infections is way higher than what's being reported, because we're not testing anywhere near enough.

I think the true number of covid deaths is pretty much the same as what's being reported, because you don't need a special test to tell when somebody is dead.
Agreed. Many people don't have severe symptoms if any, yet are infected. 

The only person I personally know who tested positive has very light symptoms. Got tested only because he was headed out to work with relief efforts. Obviously that's anecdotal and I'm not implying otherwise, but it happens. 

 
Again, I don't know how often the following is happening and how widespread it is, but my wife this morning had a case cross her desk. The patient has been in a nursing home and tested COVID positive weeks ago. She was asymptomatic then and never developed any symptoms. She has since developed a urinary track infection and is asymptomatic still. She may or may not be retested. Yet she is getting medically coded as COVID POSITIVE - REQUIRING TREATMENT. She will end up as a statistic on a report that will go to the governor as a COVID case requiring treatment. I have no idea if this is immoral, illegal, or fattening . . . but that's how this one is getting recorded.

Apparently the government is reimbursing my wife's company with a lump sum per COVID case (which is more than they would be getting regularly to have this patient treated). I don't know how they calculated that number. It seems sketchy on the surface, but with so many other medical appointments and procedures not being allowed to occur right now, maybe the government inflated the COVID payouts to make up for the loss of revenue for other procedures. That's why I am not as outraged as my wife is over the recordkeeping and reimbursement process in this type of situation.
Not sure I am following....what SHOULD she be coded in the view of you/your wife?  The sketchy part here, at least as I see it, is the question of whether to test the person again or not...they absolutely should.

 
Not sure I am following....what SHOULD she be coded in the view of you/your wife?  The sketchy part here, at least as I see it, is the question of whether to test the person again or not...they absolutely should.
The cost of the test is basically in the noise on this one.

My wife said this patient should be coded and labeled as having a urinary tract infection, which in no way, shape, or form had anything to do with her testing positive for the coronavirus in March (and showing no symptoms since). Once it became clear that nursing homes were potential hot spots, the state mandated all nursing home residents and staff be tested. Now jump ahead weeks and weeks later and this woman got a UTI (which apparently happens all the time). The treatment is not expensive but should still be overseen by a physician.

Instead, it is getting labeled as a COVID case, and instead of a bill and a repayment for a couple hundred dollars, it goes in the COVID TREATMENT bucket. The government has a set amount they are reimbursing for COVID cases for Medicaid patients, so her company could potentially get reimbursed something crazy like $13,000 for a case that has nothing to do with COVID (in addition to adding to the stats used to determine if the virus numbers are declining or not . . . and potentially pushing out the stay at home mandate).

At her company, she thinks the number of reported cases is getting way overblown and doesn't want to contribute to the problem (as it is in their best interest to come up with MORE cases, not fewer). She also sees all the effort that went into prepping extra hospital beds for the masses of patients that never materialized (at least not yet). So in HER opinion, things are getting grossly misreported. (Mind you, I don't know if that is just her company, just locally, how other places are handling it, etc.)

She was concerned that in this case, her company is going to get way more money than they deserve (which is why I brought up the part about there potentially being a quid pro quo  where the government understands the company is losing money by not having other procedures being performed, so they agreed to overpay for COVID cases). All I know is she is contemplating not doing what her company has asked her to do (rubber stamping COVID on as many cases as possible), which I am not in favor of as she could lose her job if she goes rogue.

 
The cost of the test is basically in the noise on this one.

My wife said this patient should be coded and labeled as having a urinary tract infection, which in no way, shape, or form had anything to do with her testing positive for the coronavirus in March (and showing no symptoms since). Once it became clear that nursing homes were potential hot spots, the state mandated all nursing home residents and staff be tested. Now jump ahead weeks and weeks later and this woman got a UTI (which apparently happens all the time). The treatment is not expensive but should still be overseen by a physician.

Instead, it is getting labeled as a COVID case, and instead of a bill and a repayment for a couple hundred dollars, it goes in the COVID TREATMENT bucket. The government has a set amount they are reimbursing for COVID cases for Medicaid patients, so her company could potentially get reimbursed something crazy like $13,000 for a case that has nothing to do with COVID (in addition to adding to the stats used to determine if the virus numbers are declining or not . . . and potentially pushing out the stay at home mandate).

At her company, she thinks the number of reported cases is getting way overblown and doesn't want to contribute to the problem (as it is in their best interest to come up with MORE cases, not fewer). She also sees all the effort that went into prepping extra hospital beds for the masses of patients that never materialized (at least not yet). So in HER opinion, things are getting grossly misreported. (Mind you, I don't know if that is just her company, just locally, how other places are handling it, etc.)

She was concerned that in this case, her company is going to get way more money than they deserve (which is why I brought up the part about there potentially being a quid pro quo  where the government understands the company is losing money by not having other procedures being performed, so they agreed to overpay for COVID cases). All I know is she is contemplating not doing what her company has asked her to do (rubber stamping COVID on as many cases as possible), which I am not in favor of as she could lose her job if she goes rogue.
thanks :thumbup:  

 

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