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Angry Beavers

How do you feel about baseball this year?

Who do you blame more?  

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Apologies if this belongs in the baseball forum, but this seems to be worth having the wider discussion - 

What are your thoughts regarding the labor stalemate in MLB?  Do you blame the players, the owners or both?  Personally, I see both sides of the argument, but I side with the players. The owners have done well for years and have the chance to increase the value of their franchises significantly while not being willing to give a little in the short term. Most MLB players do not make 1M a year and have a limited earnings window so I get where asking the players to take more than a 50% cut in salary starts to become an issue. 

I was looking forward to baseball 2020, particularly fantasy, but now I am in a place like - come get me if it actually happens and until then, who cares?  Just wondering how others feel about MLB these days. 

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Posturing. July 4th weekend makes sense to kick things off. They need 3 weeks of spring training. So that gives them about 10 days or so to play chicken and see who blinks. If this is still going on mid-June then I'll have my crow served cold, on a bed of rice.

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I can't believe all parties involved would be this stupid and not come to a consensus to get a partial season in.  Baseball is at a crossroads and is already suffering with the younger generations not nearly as interested in the sport as boomers and gen Xers.  Missing an entire season when other sports seem to be figuring it out is only going to make things worse for them.

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Players are such aholes. My son is begging to play little league again and these players are whining when they are still making millions of dollars during a pandemic where 30m are out of work? #### them. I was all excited for a season to start and finally see Cole on the mound for the yankees but I couldn't care less anymore. 

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Both sides are to blame.  They need to realize that there is enough to go all around for everyone and the best thing for everyone is to get it figured out.  There is no right or wrong.  They are both wrong and are cutting off their nose to spite their face.   It's stupid. 

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The owners offering up a scenario where Mike Trout goes from making over $37 million to $5.7 million before postseason bonuses is not negotiating in good faith. 

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11 minutes ago, ajm27501 said:

The owners offering up a scenario where Mike Trout goes from making over $37 million to $5.7 million before postseason bonuses is not negotiating in good faith. 

Yep. When the owners and players agreed to pro-rate salaries based on games played when this all started, to now trying to renegotiate those terms is weak sauce and pure stupidy.

 

They should have thought this through originally.

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I get that it's a big business for both sides and it's important for each to negotiate the most favorable terms.  But everybody loses if the games don't happen so there are mutual incentives to get a deal done.

For me, it's a game.  I'm not personally invested in the financial settlement.

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Of the major sports it's the one in the best shape to play through a virus.  The players just have to contain themselves and refrain from spitting and slapping each other's butts.

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I honestly couldn't care less if there was baseball given all that's gone on. It seems like another distraction from what's really important. But that's me. 

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3 hours ago, jobarules said:

Players are such aholes. My son is begging to play little league again and these players are whining when they are still making millions of dollars during a pandemic where 30m are out of work? #### them. I was all excited for a season to start and finally see Cole on the mound for the yankees but I couldn't care less anymore. 

Yeah, those owners are saints and don't deserve any of this.  I feel really badly for them.

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5 hours ago, Angry Beavers said:

Apologies if this belongs in the baseball forum, but this seems to be worth having the wider discussion - 

What are your thoughts regarding the labor stalemate in MLB?  Do you blame the players, the owners or both?  Personally, I see both sides of the argument, but I side with the players. The owners have done well for years and have the chance to increase the value of their franchises significantly while not being willing to give a little in the short term. Most MLB players do not make 1M a year and have a limited earnings window so I get where asking the players to take more than a 50% cut in salary starts to become an issue. 

I was looking forward to baseball 2020, particularly fantasy, but now I am in a place like - come get me if it actually happens and until then, who cares?  Just wondering how others feel about MLB these days. 

Is this true? Minimum is almost 600k. I could be wrong, but I’d be surprised if most people earn the minimum. 
In any case, I won’t get too worked up until something actually happens. Right now it’s just all posturing. 

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14 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I honestly couldn't care less if there was baseball given all that's gone on. It seems like another distraction from what's really important. But that's me. 

That’s exactly the point. What else should we do? Bob and I were going to watch the game and have a beer, but that SOB told me he’s going to try to find a Covid cure. 

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1 minute ago, Cjw_55106 said:

That’s exactly the point. What else should we do? Bob and I were going to watch the game and have a beer, but that SOB told me he’s going to try to find a Covid cure. 

Yeah, I know to distract is the point. But when we have certain elements of our government that can't muster an appropriate and mature response, it seems like another major iron in the fire is too much for my liking. 

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Posted (edited)

 

8 minutes ago, Cjw_55106 said:
24 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I honestly couldn't care less if there was baseball given all that's gone on. It seems like another distraction from what's really important. But that's me. 

That’s exactly the point. What else should we do? Bob and I were going to watch the game and have a beer, but that SOB told me he’s going to try to find a Covid cure. 

I still love sports and will undoubtedly watch them when they return.  But the current state of things have shown me that I don't _need_ sports.  It's just another source of content at this point.  I hope I can get back to where I care a lot.

 

ETA:  I will still manage the #### out of my fantasy teams though.

Edited by Eephus
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And count me among those that hopes sports returns and holds no grudge against the role they play in people's lives, but that this is a unique situation and would hope that other fundamental things have been resolved before the games go on. 

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21 minutes ago, Cjw_55106 said:

Is this true? Minimum is almost 600k. I could be wrong, but I’d be surprised if most people earn the minimum. 
In any case, I won’t get too worked up until something actually happens. Right now it’s just all posturing. 

More than half probably isn't true, but the number is higher than you think. The Tigers suck, but more than half of their active roster is slated to make less than $1m this year. The Rays don't suck, but they are notoriously cheap and have a similar breakdown. Only without an albatross in sight. But even a top 10 payroll like St. Louis has 40% of their roster below a mil. 

Macro speaking, most baseball players do not earn life-changing money until they've been in the bigs for > a full year. Even when they do breakthrough it's often a yo-yo between The Show and the slave wages in the minors, so it's just on a prorated basis. Up to them getting through that yo-yo stage the only meaningful slice of pie they may have seen (if at all) was their signing bonus. And in many cases that was the better part of a decade earlier.

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Both sides are likely to blame here.  Will I watch?  Heck to the yes, and not just because I have a fantasy team.  I have realized that I do NEED sports.  I'm starting to go a little crazy.  Not to the point where I'll stay up to 3am to watch Korean baseball, but I do look forward to having some MLB to watch, especially on the weekends.

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The owners want to pay the players a 1/4 of their salaries while playing 1/2 the regular schedule of games. It’s not the players fault the owners won’t get their concession stand money. :shrug: minor league players not called up with the expanded rosters will also be out of a paycheck, f the owners.

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2 hours ago, Cjw_55106 said:

Is this true? Minimum is almost 600k. I could be wrong, but I’d be surprised if most people earn the minimum. 
In any case, I won’t get too worked up until something actually happens. Right now it’s just all posturing. 

I was slighty off. In 2019, 484 of 837 made 1M or more.

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/mlb/salaries/

 

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3 hours ago, belljr said:

There's a labor issue?

There's baseball after little league?

3 hours ago, rockaction said:

I honestly couldn't care less if there was baseball given all that's gone on. It seems like another distraction from what's really important. But that's me. 

I personally wouldn't care if pro baseball completely folded. 

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I'm excited. Best opportunity for the Astros to win another World Series without the inconvenient harassment of the opposing fans.

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5 hours ago, ajm27501 said:

The owners offering up a scenario where Mike Trout goes from making over $37 million to $5.7 million before postseason bonuses is not negotiating in good faith. 

Does he get paid if there is no season? 

 

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7 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

Does he get paid if there is no season? 

 

Only partial compensation

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Angry Beavers said:

Most MLB players do not make 1M a year and have a limited earnings window so I get where asking the players to take more than a 50% cut in salary starts to become an issue.

Average salary last year was 4.36 million

Linkage

Edited by Penguin

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I don't think the players should take the current deal and the blame should fall  on the owners.

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8 hours ago, Ron Swanson said:

I'm excited. Best opportunity for the Astros to win another World Series without the inconvenient harassment of the opposing fans.

Yeah, but man those trash can bangs are going to be easy to hear now.

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13 hours ago, rockaction said:

I honestly couldn't care less if there was baseball given all that's gone on. It seems like another distraction from what's really important. But that's me. 

I do wonder how many people would realize that sports aren’t as important as we’ve made them to be and significantly reduce their consumption going forward. It wouldn’t surprise me if that is a major concern for pro sports leagues.

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I haven't been following it too closely. From what I have seen, the owners are being unreasonable. I expect they'll be able to work something out and do a partial season. For me, and I think many casual fans, attending games or at least the possibility of attending is a large part of the draw. I can't watch baseball on TV. Without being able to go to games I think the general interest will be significantly reduced. I will still follow box scores/stats and read the occasional article on The Athletic. I think my overall interest will be as low as ever though

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its really pretty simple math if you know the numbers, but since the players don't trust the numbers the owners are giving them, it stands to reason they are not going to agree to what is being proposed.  As far as I can tell, the owners will lose a crapton of money if no games are played at all, BUT they will lose even more money if they play the games with no fans and pay the players 50% of their contracted salaries.  If you consider a payroll of 200 million for the year, 100 million would be paid in salary.  If the broadcast revenue is the only thing coming in, that has to be at least 100 million for the owners to break even on playing the games.  If the broadcast revenue is only 75 million, the owners lose 25 million more by playing the games than if they don't.  

That is simplified, but it gives a general idea of what is being faced.  The biggest incentive for the owners to play the games at all is the future of baseball.  I think you can kiss goodbye (and may have already) a lot of fans if they don't play baseball which will cut down on revenue over the years to come.  Is it 25 million spread over 1 year?  5 years?  10 years?  I don't know that answer, but I think long term, they lose more if they don't play the games.  Still, that is hard to swallow for most teams.  Many have already furloughed and given pay cuts to full time staff, but really we are talking pennies in savings compared to the players contract salaries, but that is probably a different discussion.

All in all, when playing sports as a player, you have a limited window of opportunity.  A career ending injury this year could potentially devastate a player.  While that is true every year, playing for a quarter of your market value would make that much worse.  I don't think either side is really being selfish.  I think they are looking out for themselves and need to come to a workable agreement.  If I were a player's rep, I would propose deferred salaries spread out over a time that is workable to the owners.  This allows the owners to not take as big of a loss this season, but the players still get what they are contracted to get over the long term.  It also protects against players in their last year, either due to retirement, or something worse.  I see it as the only way to really get past the financial hurdle.  Maybe the higher salaries are spread over a longer period of time, and the lower salaries can get all of their money within a year or two.  It could work.  

Oh, and I voted equal blame because they need to figure this S out.  Can't wait for baseball.  

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7 minutes ago, Caesar said:

its really pretty simple math if you know the numbers, but since the players don't trust the numbers the owners are giving them, it stands to reason they are not going to agree to what is being proposed. 

This. Just agree on a arbitrator that both sides trust and then accept whatever numbers they give you. There's no way both sides come away "happy" anyway.

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Kinda over it.  Both sides look bad.

Everyone in our fantasy league is paid in with hopes that the season would start at some point but I'm about ready to ask for my money back.

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17 hours ago, Leroy Hoard said:

Of the major sports it's the one in the best shape to play through a virus.  The players just have to contain themselves and refrain from spitting and slapping each other's butts.

Hang on. If that's the case I need to change my vote to "apathetic if there is a a season or not". 

TIA. 

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I think they're both equal to blame here, but I agree that it's a tough spot for both.

Players felt that they have made significant concessions to salary already and that the owners are coming back at them for more without regard to previous agreement.  Owners are saying that they need to take other monetary factors into account, and have made concessions in that the higher earners will feel a bulk of it more than the lesser earners (kind of like the American public demanding the top 1% get hit with higher taxes).

People say it's not my money so I don't care, well, true, however do you think the owners are just going to absorb these losses without regard to running a viable business?  They are going to pass this on to the other club employees in the form of layoffs, raise freezes, furloughs, etc..... as they don't have a union.  They are going to raise prices be it on tickets, concessions, whatever they have to do to recoup these losses in revenue.  And no one is ever going to spill a tear for the billionaire owner, but I'm of the opinion that sports salaries are way out of hand as it is, be it MLB, EPL, NFL, NBA compared to the every day person as it is.

So, just keep infighting, and lets cancel the whole damn season.  lose/lose.

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1 hour ago, Caesar said:

its really pretty simple math if you know the numbers, but since the players don't trust the numbers the owners are giving them, it stands to reason they are not going to agree to what is being proposed.  As far as I can tell, the owners will lose a crapton of money if no games are played at all, BUT they will lose even more money if they play the games with no fans and pay the players 50% of their contracted salaries.  If you consider a payroll of 200 million for the year, 100 million would be paid in salary.  If the broadcast revenue is the only thing coming in, that has to be at least 100 million for the owners to break even on playing the games.  If the broadcast revenue is only 75 million, the owners lose 25 million more by playing the games than if they don't.  

That is simplified, but it gives a general idea of what is being faced.  The biggest incentive for the owners to play the games at all is the future of baseball.  I think you can kiss goodbye (and may have already) a lot of fans if they don't play baseball which will cut down on revenue over the years to come.  Is it 25 million spread over 1 year?  5 years?  10 years?  I don't know that answer, but I think long term, they lose more if they don't play the games.  Still, that is hard to swallow for most teams.  Many have already furloughed and given pay cuts to full time staff, but really we are talking pennies in savings compared to the players contract salaries, but that is probably a different discussion.

All in all, when playing sports as a player, you have a limited window of opportunity.  A career ending injury this year could potentially devastate a player.  While that is true every year, playing for a quarter of your market value would make that much worse.  I don't think either side is really being selfish.  I think they are looking out for themselves and need to come to a workable agreement.  If I were a player's rep, I would propose deferred salaries spread out over a time that is workable to the owners.  This allows the owners to not take as big of a loss this season, but the players still get what they are contracted to get over the long term.  It also protects against players in their last year, either due to retirement, or something worse.  I see it as the only way to really get past the financial hurdle.  Maybe the higher salaries are spread over a longer period of time, and the lower salaries can get all of their money within a year or two.  It could work.  

Oh, and I voted equal blame because they need to figure this S out.  Can't wait for baseball.  

I am not sure if this would be the case.  I believe baseball contracts are guaranteed (think Bonilla still being paid by the Mets until 2035).  I am assuming there are injury clauses in the contract that dictate how much they get paid (and if the contracts are guaranteed I would guess it would be full value) in case of injury.  I don't think that value would change if the injury happened during a shortened season.  It might actually turn out better in payment value than actually playing a shortened season.

 

This is not to say the rest of your math is wrong......just that I think injuries are a different animal based on contract wording.

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32 minutes ago, Gally said:

I am not sure if this would be the case.  I believe baseball contracts are guaranteed (think Bonilla still being paid by the Mets until 2035).  I am assuming there are injury clauses in the contract that dictate how much they get paid (and if the contracts are guaranteed I would guess it would be full value) in case of injury.  I don't think that value would change if the injury happened during a shortened season.  It might actually turn out better in payment value than actually playing a shortened season.

 

This is not to say the rest of your math is wrong......just that I think injuries are a different animal based on contract wording.

You may be 100% correct.  I am not sure about that part of it.  As far as I am aware, Bonilla agreed to those deferred payments, as do many other players, but I don't think they had anything to do with injury.  It was more like asking for a guaranteed pension upon retirement added into their contract.  Its a win for the team because they defer the money to later, and it can be good for the player because he keeps getting paid long after they can't play in the league anymore. 

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3 minutes ago, Caesar said:

You may be 100% correct.  I am not sure about that part of it.  As far as I am aware, Bonilla agreed to those deferred payments, as do many other players, but I don't think they had anything to do with injury.  It was more like asking for a guaranteed pension upon retirement added into their contract.  Its a win for the team because they defer the money to later, and it can be good for the player because he keeps getting paid long after they can't play in the league anymore. 

I wasn't meaning he was injured just that his contract was guaranteed regardless of whether he was still playing.  Injury is just one aspect of the guarantee.  Bottom line is baseball players get paid regardless......unlike football players whose contracts are not guranteed.  They get cut the contract is void (except for signing bonus....or Kirk Cousins).

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2 hours ago, Caesar said:

its really pretty simple math if you know the numbers, but since the players don't trust the numbers the owners are giving them, it stands to reason they are not going to agree to what is being proposed.  As far as I can tell, the owners will lose a crapton of money if no games are played at all, BUT they will lose even more money if they play the games with no fans and pay the players 50% of their contracted salaries.  If you consider a payroll of 200 million for the year, 100 million would be paid in salary.  If the broadcast revenue is the only thing coming in, that has to be at least 100 million for the owners to break even on playing the games.  If the broadcast revenue is only 75 million, the owners lose 25 million more by playing the games than if they don't.  

That is simplified, but it gives a general idea of what is being faced.  The biggest incentive for the owners to play the games at all is the future of baseball.  I think you can kiss goodbye (and may have already) a lot of fans if they don't play baseball which will cut down on revenue over the years to come.  Is it 25 million spread over 1 year?  5 years?  10 years?  I don't know that answer, but I think long term, they lose more if they don't play the games.  Still, that is hard to swallow for most teams.  Many have already furloughed and given pay cuts to full time staff, but really we are talking pennies in savings compared to the players contract salaries, but that is probably a different discussion.

All in all, when playing sports as a player, you have a limited window of opportunity.  A career ending injury this year could potentially devastate a player.  While that is true every year, playing for a quarter of your market value would make that much worse.  I don't think either side is really being selfish.  I think they are looking out for themselves and need to come to a workable agreement.  If I were a player's rep, I would propose deferred salaries spread out over a time that is workable to the owners.  This allows the owners to not take as big of a loss this season, but the players still get what they are contracted to get over the long term.  It also protects against players in their last year, either due to retirement, or something worse.  I see it as the only way to really get past the financial hurdle.  Maybe the higher salaries are spread over a longer period of time, and the lower salaries can get all of their money within a year or two.  It could work.  

Oh, and I voted equal blame because they need to figure this S out.  Can't wait for baseball.  

National TV revenue alone is around $1.7 billion.  Much of that money is for postseason play, but split amongst all teams, so it's not a prorated loss with fewer games.  Approximately an additional $1 billion that comes to teams from MLB Network, MLB.TV, etc.  Local TV revenue obviously varies across the league, but totals over $2 billion.  Those revenue streams alone average over $150 million per year per team.  How do the owners lose even more money if they play games with no fans?

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I could care less, Korean baseball (KBO) is so much better.  Lots of runs, terrible bullpens, wake up every morning to catch the important innings, it's the best.

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I like to watch games at the field. I won't be going to a live game this year. Cancel the season.

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1 hour ago, ajm27501 said:

National TV revenue alone is around $1.7 billion.  Much of that money is for postseason play, but split amongst all teams, so it's not a prorated loss with fewer games.  Approximately an additional $1 billion that comes to teams from MLB Network, MLB.TV, etc.  Local TV revenue obviously varies across the league, but totals over $2 billion.  Those revenue streams alone average over $150 million per year per team.  How do the owners lose even more money if they play games with no fans?

Key words there, and they're pretty important.  What is the Yankees and Dodgers payroll compared to the Royals and Twins?  I understand that 48% of the broadcast revenue goes into a pot and is split among the 30 teams.  The other 52% goes to the team that gets that contract.  YES network (used to) pays a heck of a lot more for broadcasting the Yankees than Fox Sports Kansas City pays for the rights to broadcast Royals games. 

I don't have the exact numbers, but suffice to say that the Yankees make a lot more in broadcast revenue than the Royals.  Yankees payroll is over three times that of the Royals.  Teams payrolls are generally based on what they are going to get for all revenues combined.  You also have to take into consideration the cost of opening and running a facility.  Maybe you think its nothing compared to payroll, and its a small percentage, but its not nothing.  

Also, do you think the deals are for a season, or for a per game basis?  If its the latter, then they will not be making their full amount for the 2020 season because they won't be playing a full 162 game schedule.  

This article is a couple of years old, and the number it uses are even older, but I am sure the number have increased at the same rate for both revenue and expenses for most teams.  https://www.royalsreview.com/2018/2/6/16961182/estimating-how-much-money-the-royals-make 

Broadcast revenue and revenue sharing made up approximately 53.4% of the total revenue.  You also will notice that of the expenses listed, only ballpark and game operations might actually take any real decline due to not having to pay for things like cleaning up after a game and ushers and ticket takers.

So, if a team is operating at a break even pace, losing 46.6% of its revenue while the cost of almost everything else stays the same would put them at a loss.  Even if you cut the players' salaries in half (the current player's ask)  and assuming full broadcast revenue (not likely), you start out taking almost a 20% loss.  

You can look at other revenues like stadium naming rights and advertising on the outfield wall, which might make up the difference.  Again, old numbers and I don't have real ones.  I am just stating based on everything I know and read about, the owners would take a bigger loss.  That's not to say I am on their side.  I think there is a way forward for baseball to be played this season.  I just hope they can come to an agreement soon.

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20 hours ago, Eephus said:

 

I still love sports and will undoubtedly watch them when they return.  But the current state of things have shown me that I don't _need_ sports.  It's just another source of content at this point.  I hope I can get back to where I care a lot.

 

ETA:  I will still manage the #### out of my fantasy teams though.

I signed up for fantasy baseball for the first time in my life for this year 😢

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41 minutes ago, Caesar said:

So, if a team is operating at a break even pace, losing 46.6% of its revenue while the cost of almost everything else stays the same would put them at a loss.  Even if you cut the players' salaries in half (the current player's ask)  and assuming full broadcast revenue (not likely), you start out taking almost a 20% loss.  

 

I don't believe the bolded is remotely true.

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I've grown apart from baseball in recent years, but was actually thinking of following the Rays, but then this and the Astros cheating scandal happened, and I think I'm better off not wasting effort on the sport anymore.

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3 hours ago, lumpy19 said:

I could care less, Korean baseball (KBO) is so much better.  Lots of runs, terrible bullpens, wake up every morning to catch the important innings, it's the best.

Oof.  

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2 hours ago, ajm27501 said:

I don't believe the bolded is remotely true.

That is fine, but you live in NY according to you profile.  I don't believe the Mets and Yankees are operating at a break even pace either, but for some teams like the Marlins, Royals, Pirates, etc., that is much closer to the truth than people want to believe.  Do they stand to make buttloads of money when they sell the team for a 400% profit?  absolutely.  But most of these sports owners get their millions from other sources.

 

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2 hours ago, NREC34 said:

I signed up for fantasy baseball for the first time in my life for this year 😢

You sir win the 2020 "unfortunate timing" award.

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