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Joe Bryant

Question For People Not Planning To Vote For Trump - 4 More Years?

For Non Trump Supporters - Would you trade another 4 years of Donald Trump in exchange for a revitalized economy and an end to the coronavirus?  

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Posted (edited)

@timschochet brought up an interesting question.

Would you trade another 4 years of Donald Trump in exchange for a revitalized economy and an end to the coronavirus?

 

 

Edited by Joe Bryant

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Just to clarify again- what I wrote is based on the idea that you KNOW what’s going to happen: you can see into the future. It’s a question of trading for 4 more years of Trump, not voting for him- when we cast our vote in November there’s no way to know that this would happen. 
 

It would also be interesting to ask Trump supporters if they would abandon their support for the same outcome. 

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I'm unclear why this is a relevant question.  We're talking about fantasy here, right?  Sure, I'd also accept another 4 years of Trump in exchange for he and Congress granting me fiat power to run the government for the entire 4 year term.  There are lots of other magical things for which I'd be willing to accept another 4 years of Trump.  But, this hypothetical isn't realistic.

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3 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

I'm unclear why this is a relevant question.  We're talking about fantasy here, right?  Sure, I'd also accept another 4 years of Trump in exchange for he and Congress granting me fiat power to run the government for the entire 4 year term.  There are lots of other magical things for which I'd be willing to accept another 4 years of Trump.  But, this hypothetical isn't realistic.

Pure hypothetical. 

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Posted (edited)

I feel like the presidency and those things are intrinsically tied together, so I have no idea how you are able to separate them even in a hypothetical. "If Trump was a good president, would you vote for him"? I mean, I guess so if he was a good president doing good things? I find it to be entering a if my aunt had two wheels and a 250cc engine she would be a motorcycle type scenario, where you have to fundamentally change your observation of reality for it to work. I am not a very creative person, so I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around the reality of pretending COVID-19 does not exist with somehow solving the problem.

Edited by huthut

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2 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Pure hypothetical. 

In the wand-waving world, sure, I'll take 4 more years of Trump in exchange for COVID disappearing via magic.  Of course, I'd probably get greedy and ask for no new viruses for at least the next decade too.

But, there is no realistic scenario where I would attribute the virus disappearing and the economy improving to actions taken by Trump, so I couldn't say I'd vote for him because he helped those things come to pass or I expected him to help them come to pass.

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16 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Just to clarify again- what I wrote is based on the idea that you KNOW what’s going to happen: you can see into the future. It’s a question of trading for 4 more years of Trump, not voting for him- when we cast our vote in November there’s no way to know that this would happen. 
 

It would also be interesting to ask Trump supporters if they would abandon their support for the same outcome. 

Seriously, when are these multiple polls coming?

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Not applicable- no way in Hades do I vote for trump

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Posted (edited)

I'm not going to answer this, but IMO voting against Trump should have nothing to do with the economy's relative health. I do think there are economic issues - the failed tariff policy, the socialization of our ag economy, the devastation of global mechanisms for trade dispute resolution, the loss of markets to China and other competitors, the deficit, the added risk and imbalance, the complete failure of the pandemic response and the effect of that on the economy - which should all legitimately play in regardless of unemployment or GDP numbers.

I'd like a "Not Applicable - I'd vote against Trump anyway" option I suppose.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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8 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Pure hypothetical. 

Well, yes but I don't accept some of the premises this trade off is based on.

1) I don't believe Trump was responsible for the robust economy pre-COVID-19. He continued an economy he inherited from Obama, and looking at graphs of employment numbers and other economic indicators, those trends just continued.

2) I don't believe the economy will fully recover by November (or even be close to it) nor there will be a vaccine by that time. If and when the Coronavirus ends I don't think Trump will be responsible for it (unless he fast tracks a vaccine without adequate clinical trials).

3) I believe his inept response (disbanding Obama's pandemic response team, etc.) is largely responsible for the economy tanking and the mess we are currently in. I can't take seriously that if there is another pandemic emerges he will handle it any better.

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Just now, squistion said:

Well, yes but I don't accept some of the premises this trade off is based on.

1) I don't believe Trump was responsible for the robust economy pre-COVID-19. He continued an economy he inherited from Obama, and looking at graphs of employment numbers and other economic indicators, those trends just continued.

2) I don't believe the economy will fully recover by November (or even be close to it) nor there will be a vaccine by that time. If and when the Coronavirus ends I don't think Trump will be responsible for it (unless he fast tracks a vaccine without adequate clinical trials).

3) I believe his inept response (disbanding Obama's pandemic response team, etc.) is largely responsible for the economy tanking and the mess we are currently in. I can't take seriously that if there is another pandemic emerges he will handle it any better.

Nobody is making premises to base this trade off on. 

It's a hypothetical choice. 

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18 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

In the wand-waving world, sure, I'll take 4 more years of Trump in exchange for COVID disappearing via magic.  Of course, I'd probably get greedy and ask for no new viruses for at least the next decade too.

 

This is wand waving world for sure. And no getting greedy. Deal or no deal as it sits. ;)

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Will trump give me a million dollars in my bank account, a private jet, an exclusive island of my own and free pizza for lunch everyday as well? That may make a difference.

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This question is the type of post that leads to a degradation of the PSF.

 

I answer - "Absolutely No" and that turns into "Great, glad to see you would rather see people die than vote for Trump."

 

 

Congrats?  :shrug:

 

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The ol Kobayashi Maru eh?  I'm taking a Kirk approach and finding a way to get to C.

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Posted (edited)

Have to say, I am more concerned with the Senate and the House than I am the President.  I think that'd be a better question, so I'll just observe here :popcorn:

:blackdot:

Edited by The Commish
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20 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Nobody is making premises to base this trade off on. 

It's a hypothetical choice. 

There are premises in the choices IMO:

If I vote for Trump, that is based on the premise that I believe he will revitalize the economy and also, somehow be responsible for ending this pandemic. There is no trade off because I can't accept that either will happen due to his reelection.

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20 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

This question is the type of post that leads to a degradation of the PSF.

 

I answer - "Absolutely No" and that turns into "Great, glad to see you would rather see people die than vote for Trump."

 

 

Congrats?  :shrug:

 

This is why I refrained from voting in Joe's similar poll a week or two ago. 

IMO, if  you vote  Yes, 4 more years of Trump and all is well,  it wouldn't end up well anyway because of another 4 years of him ruining the economy would be our undoing anyway. 

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2 minutes ago, squistion said:

There are premises in the choices IMO:

If I vote for Trump, that is based on the premise that I believe he will revitalize the economy and also, somehow be responsible for ending this pandemic. There is no trade off because I can't accept that either will happen due to his reelection.

Thanks. We'll just have to disagree and move on. 

I thought Tim's post I liked was super clear. 

Quote

Just to clarify again- what I wrote is based on the idea that you KNOW what’s going to happen: you can see into the future. It’s a question of trading for 4 more years of Trump, not voting for him- when we cast our vote in November there’s no way to know that this would happen. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

This question is the type of post that leads to a degradation of the PSF.

 

I answer - "Absolutely No" and that turns into "Great, glad to see you would rather see people die than vote for Trump."

 

 

Congrats?  :shrug:

 

Thanks. Again, sorry to hear you think discussion like that leads to the "degradation" of the forum. I disagree.

Tim said he would trade another 4 years of Donald Trump in exchange for a revitalized economy and an end to the coronavirus. He called it a no brainer.

You replied, "There is no scenario where I would vote for Trump. None whatsoever."

The stark differences in opinions from "no brainer" to "none whatsoever" was interesting to me so I asked where others were on this question. If asking a question to see where people are leads to degradation, that's a tough spot. I'll bow out now.

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. Again, sorry to hear you think discussion like that leads to the "degradation" of the forum. I disagree.

Tim said he would trade another 4 years of Donald Trump in exchange for a revitalized economy and an end to the coronavirus. He called it a no brainer.

You replied, "There is no scenario where I would vote for Trump. None whatsoever."

The stark differences in opinions from "no brainer" to "none whatsoever" was interesting to me so I asked where others were on this question. If asking a question to see where people are leads to degradation, that's a tough spot. I'll bow out now.

In fairness to @Sinn Fein here, he shouldn't be required to qualify his statement as "There is no non-magical scenario where I would vote for Trump."

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39 minutes ago, fatguyinalittlecoat said:

I would need a lot more information to know the answer here.

like what happens in the Senate

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11 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. Again, sorry to hear you think discussion like that leads to the "degradation" of the forum. I disagree.

Tim said he would trade another 4 years of Donald Trump in exchange for a revitalized economy and an end to the coronavirus. He called it a no brainer.

You replied, "There is no scenario where I would vote for Trump. None whatsoever."

The stark differences in opinions from "no brainer" to "none whatsoever" was interesting to me so I asked where others were on this question. If asking a question to see where people are leads to degradation, that's a tough spot. I'll bow out now.

how about "If you rule out magic wand-waving hypotheticals, there is no scenario where i would vote for Trump"?

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I voted yes.  I’ve been very clear that (in my view) Trump is a wannabe dictator.  So 4 more years of Trump gives him 4 more years to tear down the fabric of our democracy and steer more folks toward supporting his dreams of authoritarian rule in the US. 
 

Flip side is that COVID is killing and will continue to kill tens (or hundreds) of thousands of people in the US.   And our economy is at Great Depression levels of chaos.  So yeah - I’d take an end to COVID and a fully recovered economy.....and roll the dice on our ability to stop Trump from becoming a dictator.

But for me, it isn’t a simple or easy choice.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

Would you trade another 4 years of Donald Trump in exchange for a revitalized economy and an end to the coronavirus?

Just to follow up on Alex’s point, the tricky (horrible) part of this is the 2nd half where it’s proposed that we can lose what 20K-150K more people OR we can have 4 more years of Trump. - The absolute worst aspect of this is that it seems the failure to mitigate and prepare earlier may have instead cost thousands of lives.

The economic question is at least sort of fun to pose, which is how I answered it.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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15 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

Tell us how any person can end COVID. 

Well...Jonas Salk maybe. 

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Just now, John Blutarsky said:

He died in 1995

That’s why I wrote maybe. Somebody like him. 

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14 minutes ago, joffer said:

how about "If you rule out magic wand-waving hypotheticals, there is no scenario where i would vote for Trump"?

No. That's part of it. It's a hypothetical like Tim said knowing the things he said would happen.

I think this has been enlightening. 

I also think it would be interesting to ask the question the other way for Trump supporters: "Would you trade 4 years of Joe Biden as President in exchange for a revitalized economy and an end to the coronavirus?"

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1 hour ago, Mene said:

The ol Kobayashi Maru eh?  I'm taking a Kirk approach and finding a way to get to C.

This guy knows things.  

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Posted (edited)

Corona gets eradicated....the economy is back to its highest level with a chance to go higher and Donald Trump with 4 more years.

 

vs.

 

Corona the way it currently is.....the economy the way it currently is and Joe Biden for 4 more years.

 

I'll take Joe Biden

 

ETA: You have to weigh the damage that Trump will do to the country over 4 more years versus the chance that corona isnt going to be worse than the flu and an economy that is seeing the stock market push back upwards.    

 

ETA2:  There is a situation where one would have to take Trump; that would be that Corona would have to be a real monster and the economy just falls off a cliff.  At that point, you would have to take a chance that 4 more years of Trump wasn't going to produce the same pain to the world.

Edited by Thunderlips

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

Have to say, I am more concerned with the Senate and the House than I am the President.  I think that'd be a better question, so I'll just observe here :popcorn:

:blackdot:

The President has the nuclear codes. Nothing is more important than ensuring that Trump’s access to nukes is removed.  

Nothing. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

Just to clarify again- what I wrote is based on the idea that you KNOW what’s going to happen: you can see into the future. It’s a question of trading for 4 more years of Trump, not voting for him- when we cast our vote in November there’s no way to know that this would happen. 
 

It would also be interesting to ask Trump supporters if they would abandon their support for the same outcome. 

Another 4 years of the racism further integrated into our society comes along with this right? Along with the very real possibility that he nukes Iran or North Korea, right?  And how many more thousands of kids are caged over the next 4 years?  How many 10s of thousands of excess deaths that will likely result in the long run due to his disastrous environmental policies and assaults on Obamacare?  

No brainer?  Really?  I think it’s a horrible hypo, but you’re vastly underestimating the next huge disaster, and how horrible it will be handled, in my opinion.   

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Posted (edited)

Trying to understand.  If you vote no that means you would rather have COVID-19 still killing people and a crappy economy than have Trump re-elected?

If you vote yes COVID is under control and economy is booming again but 4 more years of Trump?

 

Is that correct?

Edited by Summer Wheat

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12 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

The President has the nuclear codes. Nothing is more important than ensuring that Trump’s access to nukes is removed.  

Nothing. 

I'd rather have trigger happy Nuke sub Captain Gene Hackman than Trump.

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:lmao:  Why do people have such a hard time with hypotheticals?

Only sane answer is YES and forget any pivot away from Corona back to Nuclear Codes which have been an issue exactly zero times in the first 4 years.  

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20 minutes ago, tommyGunZ said:

The President has the nuclear codes. Nothing is more important than ensuring that Trump’s access to nukes is removed.  

Nothing. 

You make a good point.

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5 minutes ago, Summer Wheat said:

Trying to understand.  If you vote no that means you would rather have COVID-19 still killing people and a crappy economy than have Trump re-elected?

If you vote yes COVID is under control and economy is booming again but 4 more years of Trump?

 

Is that correct?

Maybe.

Quote

Would you trade another 4 years of Donald Trump in exchange for a revitalized economy and an end to the coronavirus?

I interpret "an end to the coronavirus" as there being a vaccine by election day. 

I interpret a "revitalized economy" as whatever economic measures you think are important returning back to pre-coronavirus levels by election day. 

I interpret the hypothetical to be that Trump is re-elected and then events just plays out from that point.

I interpret the hypothetical to be that the economy can tank again in the next 4+ years. It can also soar to be better than ever. It's an unknown and based on how one assumes another Trump administration would affect the economy after this hypothetical recovery.

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9 minutes ago, tonydead said:

:lmao:  Why do people have such a hard time with hypotheticals?

Only sane answer is YES and forget any pivot away from Corona back to Nuclear Codes which have been an issue exactly zero times in the first 4 years.  

I wonder if a predictions market thread would fly here. Probably not, but it would be nice if we could see people put money behind some claims like:

Quote

the very real possibility that he nukes Iran or North Korea

 

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4 minutes ago, tonydead said:

:lmao:  Why do people have such a hard time with hypotheticals?

Only sane answer is YES and forget any pivot away from Corona back to Nuclear Codes which have been an issue exactly zero times in the first 4 years.  

It’s not a pivot, it’s part of Joe’s hypothetical. 4 more years of Trump means he has the nuke codes. That’s absolutely a part considering this hypothetical, unless the magic wand also wipes the codes away as well.  

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11 minutes ago, Challenge Everything said:

The Republicans have to see how toxic Trump is to their party, no? Why not dump him and nominate Pence? Save some face.

They think Trump is more likely to win the election, I assume.

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17 minutes ago, Challenge Everything said:

The Republicans have to see how toxic Trump is to their party, no? Why not dump him and nominate Pence? Save some face.

Would love to see both Trump and Biden dumped and get some real candidates in there.

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Posted (edited)

A revitalized. or even flat, economy is one thing.  Ending or curing COVID19 almost certainly means saving the lives of millions of people worldwide.   That's one hell of a loaded question.


ETA

Can I get a guarantee that 4 more years of Trump and a COVID19 cure doesn't lead to WW3 or lead to an outright dictatorship in the US?  Interesting question but way too many variables.

Edited by Green Balloons

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Posted (edited)

Wow.   All I can say.  Just wow.   And I thought Bill Maher was an outlier

Edited by supermike80

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