Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
yes or no....
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Is it Possible....? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Stinkin Ref
- Start date
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Views without votes is pretty telling....
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Is it possible that the FFA is starting to look too much like the PSF with some of these threads on the fist page?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I vote for more ellipses.
No wait, I mean less.
No...wait!...
No wait, I mean less.
No...wait!...
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Wanted to put it in the Shark Pool as a tag to the Drew Brees thread....but....felt it belong here....its not really “all politics” is it?....when talking about the NA and flag presentation at sporting events....
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Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Quint
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I'm conflicted on whether or not you don’t like it when people kneel when the NA is played or the colors are presented.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Just a comment on what page 1 is looking like with this thread, "state of police", Black Lives Matter, etc.. I get people want to talk about this stuff, but it is starting to bleed into the FFA more than I expected it to.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
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I voted yes, but I think that view is a bit of willful ignorance and I don't mean that as an insult. The protestors have come out and said kneeling isn't about disrespecting the flag or the military, the act of kneeling isn't inherently disrespectful (it's not like anyone's pissing on the flag for example), yet you and others refuse to accept that.
This is from Nate Boyer, I could post this in a lot of threads but I'll post this here.
“I'll just speak on the Drew Brees thing really quickly — he’s a really good dude, man. He does a lot for the city of New Orleans, for the community, whether it’s post-Katrina or helping secure voting rights for formerly incarcerated people in Louisiana — he helped lead that charge with some of the Saints’ players,” Boyer said on 97.3 The Fan, via USA Today. “Even what he said in his response, well, he said what he said, so I don’t know what he meant exactly. But I absolutely don’t think he meant to ostracize himself or make this issue about something that it’s not.
“But the fact of the matter is that we’ve gotta — for these guys that are working really hard in the league, a lot of these players — make sure that the narrative is understood that the protests are about racial inequality, social injustice and policy brutality and that kneeling during the anthem was a mechanism to raise that attention and to get those voices heard. But it’s not about disrespecting the flag or disrespecting the military, and I think Drew knows that.”
“I also understand what he was talking about in the other part of that video when the anthem plays, because I feel the same way,” Boyer said on 97.3 The Fan, via USA Today. “And that’s not a bad thing to feel patriotic. It’s not a bad thing to love your country and want to stand with your hand on your heart.
“But if other people don’t feel the same way, it’s just that acknowledgement and understanding that, ‘Hey, I’ll stand for you, and until you feel that way, maybe you shouldn’t. But when you do, I’m looking forward to the day that you feel the same way that I do and I’ll keep fighting to make it happen until that day comes.’”
“I think we have come quite a long ways in our few hundred years of existence, but we still have a long way to go. It’s not perfect,” Boyer told Yahoo Sports. “For us to just sit back and be like, ‘Well it’s good enough,’ that’s not American. That’s not who we are. We’re not the ‘good enough’ people. We keep fighting until the issue is fully resolved and it’s fixed and it’s better and everybody feels truly equal. That’s what I stand for, that’s why I joined the military. That’s what we have to do.”
“I'll just speak on the Drew Brees thing really quickly — he’s a really good dude, man. He does a lot for the city of New Orleans, for the community, whether it’s post-Katrina or helping secure voting rights for formerly incarcerated people in Louisiana — he helped lead that charge with some of the Saints’ players,” Boyer said on 97.3 The Fan, via USA Today. “Even what he said in his response, well, he said what he said, so I don’t know what he meant exactly. But I absolutely don’t think he meant to ostracize himself or make this issue about something that it’s not.
“But the fact of the matter is that we’ve gotta — for these guys that are working really hard in the league, a lot of these players — make sure that the narrative is understood that the protests are about racial inequality, social injustice and policy brutality and that kneeling during the anthem was a mechanism to raise that attention and to get those voices heard. But it’s not about disrespecting the flag or disrespecting the military, and I think Drew knows that.”
“I also understand what he was talking about in the other part of that video when the anthem plays, because I feel the same way,” Boyer said on 97.3 The Fan, via USA Today. “And that’s not a bad thing to feel patriotic. It’s not a bad thing to love your country and want to stand with your hand on your heart.
“But if other people don’t feel the same way, it’s just that acknowledgement and understanding that, ‘Hey, I’ll stand for you, and until you feel that way, maybe you shouldn’t. But when you do, I’m looking forward to the day that you feel the same way that I do and I’ll keep fighting to make it happen until that day comes.’”
“I think we have come quite a long ways in our few hundred years of existence, but we still have a long way to go. It’s not perfect,” Boyer told Yahoo Sports. “For us to just sit back and be like, ‘Well it’s good enough,’ that’s not American. That’s not who we are. We’re not the ‘good enough’ people. We keep fighting until the issue is fully resolved and it’s fixed and it’s better and everybody feels truly equal. That’s what I stand for, that’s why I joined the military. That’s what we have to do.”
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Hypothetically speaking, if someone clearly doesn't know how punctuation works is that a sign of high or low intelligence?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Weird thread - of course it’s possible. I wasn’t even sure what the point was until I saw Brees name mentioned. For the record, he’s a horrible human being and should be kicked out of the league. @SaintsInDome2006
Grahamburn
Footballguy
I voted no.
If you "don't like it" when someone kneels during the anthem I don't think you fully understand or appreciate why it is being done. The last line of the anthem, "O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave..." only partially applies as the people seeking racial equality through non-violent protests are extremely brave, but they aren't often treated like they're free.
If you "don't like it" when someone kneels during the anthem I don't think you fully understand or appreciate why it is being done. The last line of the anthem, "O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave..." only partially applies as the people seeking racial equality through non-violent protests are extremely brave, but they aren't often treated like they're free.
Jaysus
Good times!
WDIK2
Footballguy
Voted "Yes" because anything is possible I guess. That's how I took the question. I think changing some words in the poll from "I don't" to "not" would have helped.
Personally I had no problem with those kneeling during the anthem. As far as a protest goes, that is about as respectful as one can be.
I think changing some words in the poll from "I don't" to "not" would have helped.Personally I had no problem with those kneeling during the anthem. As far as a protest goes, that is about as respectful as one can be.
The issue seems to be that people are being told they cannot feel a certain way about the kneeling action. Then because of that you are automatically labeled as a person against BLM and for police brutality. It seems to turn just that fast (see Drew Brees) regardless of the actual meaningful actions that an individual does.
There are many ways to protest so why must kneeling during the NA be the only protest that seems to matter? Some people believe that is disrespectful to the country and the people that served. Some people don't. Both feelings are neither right or wrong it is the individuals perception. Rather than argue what the kneeling does or does not mean why not work to end the purpose of the protest (police brutality). Wouldn't that be more important anyway?
Rather that push away and insult people that are for the cause because they treat the flag representation differently work with them and embrace the real cause?
Well they could kneel during the coin toss or whatever but i dont think it would have nearly the same impact.
I get that some are offended by others not kneeling but when the protesters are saying they’re not disrespecting the flag or the military and the act is simply kneeling I guess I don’t see a reason why someone would be offended.
I think maybe those people should be asking themselves why they’re offended rather than asking the people protesting to change their behavior.
Someone brought up the gay marriage analogy which seems appropriate. Now I do realize many people are opposed to that on religious or their moral grounds but at the end of the day it’s up to each person whether they want to marry a man or a woman but what someone else does has absolutely no impact on my life. Seems like a it’s the same thing here.
Can't you have the belief that you wouldn't kneel because you think it disrespectful and understand why they are kneeling and believe in the cause (against police brutality)? Many are getting pushed all the way over to being for police brutality because they won't kneel which is far from the truth. Each individual can have their belief system (thinking kneeling is disrespectful and won't do it) and still be behind the cause.
I assume you are not offended by the kneeling (based on your comments) and it makes sense that you don't see why someone should be offended but it doesn't change the fact that they are offended. People feel what they feel based on many factors and sometimes you cannot change that feeling. However, it doesn't mean they are for police brutality.
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
Construct a more coherent question and views may become votes. Does a NO vote mean I disagree with all, or just the last part? Since I support the right to kneel during the NA even if I don't necessarily "like" it, should my vote be yes? There's also a problem with any question that makes assumptions straight away. What if someone truly believed no changes need to be made? What would their vote be? Even terrible people are allowed to vote.
Absolutely someone can be against kneeling and also against police brutality.
My point was just that people should try to figure out why they’re offended by something that really shouldn’t be offensive. I get that feelings of patriotism can be strong but I think people offended have to try to accept that kneeling is not unpatriotic.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Kneeling was used to garner attention about an important issue for the black community. If the bipartisan response was, "hey, we hear what you're trying to say. You've got our attention and let's do something about it", then continued kneeling would be unnecessary. However, what we saw some say was, "hey, I don't know what you're trying to do but you're disrespecting this country and it needs to stop." That response told the black community that we're not hearing them.
If my wife says in an unpleasant tone, "hey, pick up the shoes you left in the living room which I asked you about yesterday," I am entitled to believe there's a better way she could have reminded me. However, it would not be cool to scold her for her tone and then act like the shoes aren't in the living room.
If my wife says in an unpleasant tone, "hey, pick up the shoes you left in the living room which I asked you about yesterday," I am entitled to believe there's a better way she could have reminded me. However, it would not be cool to scold her for her tone and then act like the shoes aren't in the living room.
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Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
strykerpks
Footballguy
Yes it's possible. But :whoosh:
I can think that something is offensive and still allow for someone to think that it is not offensive. You think it should not be offensive (as well as some military folks and other people). Some people think it is offensive (some military folks and other people). Neither are right or wrong. It is their opinion.
I hope everyone thinks police brutality is wrong. That should not be up for debate.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
You're kinda doing the same thing you're arguing against, though. Most people probably agree that "police brutality" is wrong. But a lot of people would say they support "police officers' right to use force to control aggressive protestors" or something. It's all about framing and context. It's as much a matter of opinion as anything else.
When you frame what Kaepernick did as "disrespecting the military" and whatnot, obviously a lot of people have a problem with that, even though that was obviously not his intent and it was only spun that way to push a certain agenda. Personally, I think that unabashed American flag-worship is clearly ###### and that should really not be up for debate. But apparently it is.
This goes to the definition of "police brutality". Everyone should be against the idea but how you define is where many people differ. I am not going down that road.You're kinda doing the same thing you're arguing against, though. Most people probably agree that "police brutality" is wrong. But a lot of people would say they support "police officers' right to use force to control aggressive protestors" or something. It's all about framing and context. It's as much a matter of opinion as anything else.
When you frame what Kaepernick did as "disrespecting the military" and whatnot, obviously a lot of people have a problem with that, even though that was obviously not his intent and it was only spun that way to push a certain agenda. Personally, I think that unabashed American flag-worship is clearly ###### and that should really not be up for debate. But apparently it is.
I understand the framing aspect and I think that hurt the cause (as many allude to that being the opposition's spin to push a certain agenda). I agree that is likely the reason it was pushed so hard and I think it did what they hoped it would.
I just think that too many times these days people are pushed to the extreme even though they are in the middle. Just because someone thinks kneeling during the NA is disrespectful to the military doesn't necessarily mean they are discounting the message behind it. They can be intelligent enough to separate the two actions and agree with the message behind the kneeling even if they don't agree with the method being used to bring it to the forefront.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Sure, and the many people who are intelligent enough to make that distinction didn't say anything about the method being used - they may be personally opposed to the method but recognize that that has nothing to do with the issues being protested, and making a point about the method of protest would only cloud the issue. Anyone who feels the need to say "I agree with your cause, but..." is doing more harm than good, as MLK so eloquently pointed out in the quote I posted above.
Encumbrance
Footballguy
Perhaps people have something to lose when things become disordered, hence the reticence to change. In America, we don't have much of a safety net other than those savings we manage to procure for ourselves and the social mobility downward is quicker than social ascension. That may be while the system of America is one of dynamism and change, our social movements are met with resistance.
It's not all black and white.
It's not all black and white.
Every discussion is a matter of opinion and debating what is right and wrong so I don’t think you can say there’s no right and wrong.
I think it’s up to the offended to provide a legitimate reason for being offended. Kneeling for the national anthem really isn’t one. Your argument is that you can’t tell someone how they feel. But what if a large group of people decided they were offended by people who wore black shirts? Would everyone have to stop wearing black shirts? Just because the flag has emotional meaning for many it doesn’t have to have that meaning for all.
I have seen instances of this happening. This type of thing is happening a lot (and I am not comparing this to the original subject).
I am not saying that the flag having emotional meaning for many means it has to for all. I believe people should be able to say what they feel and not get accosted for it (Drew Brees). There is a difference in saying I will not kneel for the NA because it means a lot to me and stopping others from doing it. Getting raked over the coals because you won't kneel even though your other actions show you are behind the end of police brutality is a problem.
modogg
Footballguy
lol, yup. i have read the statement/question twice, and still am not sure what exactly is being asked
northern exposure
Footballguy
