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Marmalade

Trump coming to Tulsa.

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LOL. That's what I thought.

I'll be checking this thread on & off (mostly on if I can).

Sure is an interesting time to be a Tulsan.

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1 minute ago, Football Jones said:

LOL. That's what I thought.

I'll be checking this thread on & off (mostly on if I can).

Sure is an interesting time to be a Tulsan.

Cool.  Feel free to answer the question when you check in again. 

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2 hours ago, Football Jones said:

So let me get this straight. If you don't wear a mask for a virus with an extremely low mortality rate, you're being irresponsible?

We had 80,000 or so deaths from the flu a few years ago. Nobody was chastised for not wearing a mask.

I tried to explain our beliefs (as a whole). Tons of good people here who are quite educated (& intelligent). We've decided to do what we're doing (as a rule). 

How would you feel about someone showing up to the rally that had the early stages of Ebola?  More deadly, but does not spread as easily.

Would you consider that irresponsible?

And remember, that person really wants to go to the rally.

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6 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

How would you feel about someone showing up to the rally that had the early stages of Ebola?  More deadly, but does not spread as easily.

Would you consider that irresponsible?

And remember, that person really wants to go to the rally.

What if there's a highly transmittable virus going around & people still feel the need to mass protest?

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

What if there's a highly transmittable virus going around & people still feel the need to mass protest?

Oh, I think that people who were going to the protests without wearing a mask were absolutely acting irresponsibly.  Since you’re still here, care to answer my question?  It’s a real question, I promise!

Let’s say you’re COVID-19 positive, but asymptomatic, and do not know you have the virus.  You attend the rally without wearing a mask and end up passing the virus on to 10-12 other people during the course of the long day, waiting in line, walking in crowds on the concourse, and then standing shoulder to shoulder for hours in a packed arena. If you could have prevented all, most, or even some of those transmissions by wearing a mask, in hindsight, would you wish that you had worn one?

Edited by bigbottom

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gotta admire your tenacity

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Just now, joffer said:

gotta admire your tenacity

Hope springs eternal. 

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Just now, bigbottom said:

Oh, I think that people who were going to the protests without wearing a mask were absolutely acting irresponsibly.  Since you’re still here, care to answer my question?

Let’s say you’re COVID-19 positive, but asymptomatic, and do not know you have the virus.  You attend the rally without wearing a mask and end up passing the virus on to 10-12 other people during the course of the long day, waiting in line, walking in crowds on the concourse, and then standing shoulder to shoulder for hours in a packed arena. If you could have prevented all, most, or even some of those transmissions by wearing a mask, in hindsight, would you wish that you had worn one?

Haha. I've explained this as much as I'm going to explain it (no offense). I think you know I believe we have a right to analyze data & make our own decisions. And that goes for even showing up at the rally.

Lots on the table in November, but that's just a fly on an elephant's ###. 

==========

You may as well make that your sig. ;)

 

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So to summarize. Anyone is free to make an irresponsible decision if they want.  

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Posted (edited)

Well I’ll just say that the fact that you don’t think this is a real question is precisely the issue.  When I go to the store where I will be around other people, I wear a mask.  Why?  Because it’s possible that I’m asymptomatic and will pass the virus to others with whom I come into contact.  So if I were to go to that rally, or a protest, I would ask myself - how would I feel if I were COVID-19 positive and didn’t know it and unknowingly infected others because I couldn’t be bothered to wear a mask? I would wish to God that I had chosen to wear a mask.  That’s precisely why I wear one.  So if you’re not even bothering to ask yourself that question, the question is why not?

There is not a doubt in my mind that there will be COVID-19 positive people that attend the rally.  It’s just inevitable given the numbers and the fact that people will be coming from all over (including Texas).  And those people if they do not wear a mask will inevitably pass the virus on to others.  Same goes for the protests by the way.  There isn’t a doubt in my mind that those protests resulted in a spread of the virus.

Edited by bigbottom

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2 minutes ago, joffer said:

gotta admire your tenacity

Back at ya. I was thinking the same thing (long ago).

The PF has opened up my eyes to a world many around here (& in middle America) wouldn't recognize. 

So much nonsense, violence, canceling, CHAZ (LOL), etc. We know conservatism works. We see it every day (and may I add race relations are quite good).

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5 hours ago, [scooter] said:

Yes. Pre-symptomatic carriers can spread the disease to hundreds of other people. So even if the virus has a low mortality rate, and even if all of those carriers are young and healthy alpha males, they can still end up spreading the virus to vulnerable people who will die.

 

This is a combination of a false statement plus bad logic.

The statement is false because we didn't have 80K deaths from the flu. It was 61K.

It's bad logic because those 61,000 deaths were out of 45 million cases. Also, the majority of those deaths were people who had access to a vaccine but did not get it.

So, to sum up:

When the risk of death is roughly 1-in-700, and you DO have access to a vaccine, then you DON'T need to wear a mask.

When the risk of death is roughly 1-in-20, and you DON'T have access to a vaccine, then you DO need to wear a mask.

Also, the *observed* flu deaths—the actual count—was less than 20,000 that year.  The CDC creates models and estimates each year and from those models estimated the 61,000 deaths.  And that’s appropriate and perfectly reasonable.  But, let’s not confuse apples and oranges here.  The confirmed flu cases are so far and away outpaced by confirmed COVID-19 cases (leaving aside the fact the undercount issues) and, as you pointed out, the IFR is at least 20x higher with COVID versus the flu.  In other words it’s 20x more deadly.

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2 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

Also, the *observed* flu deaths—the actual count—was less than 20,000 that year.  The CDC creates models and estimates each year and from those models estimated the 61,000 deaths.  And that’s appropriate and perfectly reasonable.  But, let’s not confuse apples and oranges here.  The confirmed flu cases are so far and away outpaced by confirmed COVID-19 cases (leaving aside the fact the undercount issues) and, as you pointed out, the IFR is at least 20x higher with COVID versus the flu.  In other words it’s 20x more deadly.

Looks like cases are spiking in your neck of the woods. Was hoping to get some distanced IOP time in later this week. :oldunsure: 

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18 minutes ago, Slapdash said:

Looks like cases are spiking in your neck of the woods. Was hoping to get some distanced IOP time in later this week. :oldunsure: 

Yup.  Since we reopened in time for Memorial Day.  We had 4 daily records just this past week.  And it ain’t more testing, which has been flat.  It’s all increased % + test rates.  No one is wearing a mask either. 

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6 hours ago, Football Jones said:

What if there's a highly transmittable virus going around & people still feel the need to mass protest?

With a mask, I have no issues..  My wife and two daughters went to a rally in downtown Vancouver.  My wife told me that out of the thousands of people down there, she saw 3 people without a mask.

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3 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

Its more than just being responsible.  It's also a respect thing.

I appreciate your input.

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We all have opinions on this, but what I find curious is when this first hit, it was all over EVERYWHERE that masks weren't effective in stopping viruses. I mean, legit high-credentialed doctors saying they weren't needed in public settings. These were doctors, not Tucker Carlson.

What changed?

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22 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

We all have opinions on this, but what I find curious is when this first hit, it was all over EVERYWHERE that masks weren't effective in stopping viruses. I mean, legit high-credentialed doctors saying they weren't needed in public settings. These were doctors, not Tucker Carlson.

What changed?

Nothing.  The same thing was said then that’s being said now. It’s not particularly effective for you the wearer against the virus getting in, but it is VERY effective at containing large amounts of the virus getting out via droplets etc if you have it.  So again it’s about you protecting others, not yourself.  
But I’m betting you knew this already so I’m not totally sure what you’re getting at.  

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, dkp993 said:

Nothing.  The same thing was said then that’s being said now. It’s not particularly effective for you the wearer against the virus getting in, but it is VERY effective at containing large amounts of the virus getting out via droplets etc if you have it.  So again it’s about you protecting others, not yourself.  
But I’m betting you knew this already so I’m not totally sure what you’re getting at.  

Again, these doctors said masks weren't effective in stopping viruses in public settings, AKA the spread.

Here's what I DO know...when this first hit, I had one of my best friends (who I grew up with) ask me about masks since he knew of my medical background. Now, this guy is way left of center (we're like The Odd Couple show you might say, LOL). He was asking whether he should try to find some masks or not because he had heard they weren't effective. My point is he's a daily watcher of CNN so I know it wasn't just a Fox or conservative thing.

Anyway, you may have a mask on, but you're still taking it on & off to eat, drink, wipe/blow your nose, etc. There's a TON of issues there. The very first thing I asked my doctor at my next appointment after this hit was what he thinks of masks. His answer was pretty much verbatim what I had heard already. When I asked him specifically how effective they might be, he said "not very".

Dude has never steered me wrong. Great doc. We all have data points & we're all going to make decisions based on them.

 

Edited by Football Jones

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11 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

Again, these doctors said masks weren't effective in stopping viruses in public settings, AKA the spread.

Here's what I DO know...when this first hit, I had one of my best friends (who I grew up with) ask me about masks since he knew of my medical background. Now, this guy is way left of center (we're like The Odd Couple show you might say, LOL). He was asking whether he should try to find some masks or not because he had heard they weren't effective. My point is he's a daily watcher of CNN so I know it wasn't just a Fox or conservative thing.

Anyway, you may have a mask on, but you're still taking it on & off to eat, drink, wipe/blow your nose, etc. There's a TON of issues there. The very first thing I asked my doctor at my next appointment after this hit was what he thinks of masks. His answer was pretty much verbatim what I had heard already. When I asked him specifically how effective they might be, he said "not very".

Dude has never steered me wrong. Great doc. We all have data points & we're all going to make decisions based on them.

 

So I guess the Mayo Clinic is wrong....

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449
 

and the cdc....

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html#:~:text=In light of this new,community-based transmission.

 

And John Hopkins.....

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-face-masks-what-you-need-to-know
 

And the cdc....

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html
 

But hey what do they know.  

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1 minute ago, dkp993 said:

All I know is the narrative changed from what I (& others) were hearing early on. It's just odd to me.

Anyway, all I can tell you is a trusted doctor told me "not very". That said, I may start asking around to see what other doctors think. My stepson is a doctor, but I haven't asked him the direct question.

 

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25 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

All I know is the narrative changed from what I (& others) were hearing early on. It's just odd to me.

Anyway, all I can tell you is a trusted doctor told me "not very". That said, I may start asking around to see what other doctors think. My stepson is a doctor, but I haven't asked him the direct question.

 

I think it makes a lot more sense for you to trust your feelings, anecdotes, and political inclinations rather than public health experts. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I think it makes a lot more sense for you to trust your feelings, anecdotes, and political inclinations rather than public health experts. 

Riiiiiight.

I'm hearing reports all over the country about low percentage of mask-wearing, not just in Tulsa. I'm betting a lot of those individuals are really smart folks & quite good people, at that.

As far as your comment regarding political inclinations, I believe I'm going to have some rather hard questions for you in the School thread once I do some in-depth research (if you're inclined to answer them).

Edited by Football Jones

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 Been working overnights in the ED and big increase in COVID patients last two nights (vegas)

it’s fairly clear to me the government made a decision early one not to recommend masks for the public because they didn’t want people to hoard them until healthcare workers and hospitals had supplies.   That was a huge mistake in retrospect.  Should have simply banned the sale of n-95 masks to the public and told everyone to buy cloth or surgical masks and for everyone to wear.  
It is very clear cut from the science that if everyone wears a mask that transmission goes down. Why does Taiwan have only 7 deaths?  Masks.  Why does japan have only 924 deaths?  Masks. 
 

furthermore if you look at spray and droplet patterns done wearing various types of coverings it is clear that masks greatly help. Plus if you do catch it wearing a mask the initial viral load is likely reduced which almost certainly lowers your chance of severe illness or dying. 

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1 hour ago, Juxtatarot said:

I sure hope that the rally in Tulsa stays peaceful.   Tulsa is a different breed.  I can honestly seeing the "rally" get pretty nasty quickly.  We have open carry so I would guess many people will be armed.  Most of my facebook feed is filled with people "can't wait to see the President!" and "Why is the President coming to Tulsa?  Shameful!"  

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Larry Kudlow on safety guidelines:

https://youtu.be/lUNgPuFiOSc

Kudlow:  “People must observe the safety guidelines. Social distancing must be observed. Face coverings in key places must be observed.”

[later]

Tapper:  “I’m glad to see you calling for people to wear masks and I assume that also means . . .”

Kudlow: “Absolutely.”

Tapper: “. . . at the rally in Tulsa. People should wear masks at the Trump rally in Tulsa this Saturday.”

Kudlow: “Ah, well okay. [stammer, stammer] Probably so.”

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5 minutes ago, Marmalade said:

I sure hope that the rally in Tulsa stays peaceful.   Tulsa is a different breed.  I can honestly seeing the "rally" get pretty nasty quickly.  We have open carry so I would guess many people will be armed.  Most of my facebook feed is filled with people "can't wait to see the President!" and "Why is the President coming to Tulsa?  Shameful!"  

I can’t imagine anyone actually going to the rally open carrying since I imagine firearms will be prohibited. But for those just going to protest, that may be the case. 

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5 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

I can’t imagine anyone actually going to the rally open carrying since I imagine firearms will be prohibited. But for those just going to protest, that may be the case. 

Right.  Clashes between protesters and counter protesters (and then police) outside the arena is what I'm worried about.

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Protests since the Floyd killing have mostly been one-sided.  There have been very few counter protesters.  Tulsa is going to be the first time where opposing groups may be present in large numbers.

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3 hours ago, growlers said:

 Been working overnights in the ED and big increase in COVID patients last two nights (vegas)

it’s fairly clear to me the government made a decision early one not to recommend masks for the public because they didn’t want people to hoard them until healthcare workers and hospitals had supplies.   That was a huge mistake in retrospect.  Should have simply banned the sale of n-95 masks to the public and told everyone to buy cloth or surgical masks and for everyone to wear.  
It is very clear cut from the science that if everyone wears a mask that transmission goes down. Why does Taiwan have only 7 deaths?  Masks.  Why does japan have only 924 deaths?  Masks. 
 

furthermore if you look at spray and droplet patterns done wearing various types of coverings it is clear that masks greatly help. Plus if you do catch it wearing a mask the initial viral load is likely reduced which almost certainly lowers your chance of severe illness or dying. 

They make pills for that man...

I also don't believe it was just the government.  It was technically correct that it won't help you much to keep from getting it.  I think, like many things, thinking evolves as to what will work best against what.  Like so many things, there were so many unknowns to this virus and still things we don't know.

And I agree...people still arguing about masks now seem to be more agenda driven than anything.

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Tulsa health director:

"COVID is here in Tulsa, it is transmitting very efficiently. I wish we could postpone this to a time when the virus isn’t as large a concern as it is today.” He said the city is seeing a "significant increase in our case trends."

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/tulsa-health-department-director-wishes-trump-rally-would-be-postponed-as-local-covid-cases-surge/article_bac51435-a5d0-5b5c-ba74-182047453d53.html

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Marmalade said:

I sure hope that the rally in Tulsa stays peaceful.   Tulsa is a different breed.  I can honestly seeing the "rally" get pretty nasty quickly.  We have open carry so I would guess many people will be armed.  Most of my facebook feed is filled with people "can't wait to see the President!" and "Why is the President coming to Tulsa?  Shameful!"  

You from Tulsa?

I really think things will be ok. I have faith. What I worry about is a spark catching fire because as you probably know, if you go looking for trouble here (rioting & that kind of nonsense), you're going to find it (& it won't be just from the cops).

Race relations here are good so what I'm mostly concerned about is the outside element.

Edited by Football Jones

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

CNN fanning the flames. Why would they go digging for something a few days before the rally?

I don't know what happened in this incident, but nobody got brutalized. Maybe they smarted off. Who knows. The culture is different here. I've been cuffed by TPD in my WAY younger days, too (didn't amount to anything). About a month ago a van full of white people was pulled over on the BA & all were on the ground & cuffed. Happens all the time. It's getting to the point where people suspect something bad when cops deal with blacks folks. It's sad. That's not the case around here. I can tell you TPD doesn't go around looking for trouble. 

People who live here know race relations are good as a rule. Actually, quite good. Do we have isolated incidents. Sure, we're not perfect

Edited by Football Jones

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Tulsa World Editorial Board:

This is the wrong time and Tulsa is the wrong place for the Trump rally.

"We don't know why he chose Tulsa, but we can’t see any way that his visit will be good for the city."

https://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/editorials/tulsa-world-editorial-this-is-the-wrong-time-and-tulsa-is-the-wrong-place-for/article_26388374-1747-5120-bc01-24b81c1b0c78.html

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Bad idea. Really unsafe to public health. Also provocative at a time where we don't need more instigating. 

Don't holler back about the protests. This thread is about the rally in Tulsa.

Bad idea. 

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, squistion said:

Tulsa World Editorial Board:

This is the wrong time and Tulsa is the wrong place for the Trump rally.

"We don't know why he chose Tulsa, but we can’t see any way that his visit will be good for the city."

https://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/editorials/tulsa-world-editorial-this-is-the-wrong-time-and-tulsa-is-the-wrong-place-for/article_26388374-1747-5120-bc01-24b81c1b0c78.html

Well, that op-ed piece represents a VERY small percentage of people's opinions around here. 

Anyway, the rally looks like it's going down. People can cry all the want. The protests caused a lot of real tears.

At this point, it's a fight for what's right. As I look into things I was naive about, I see why people are so adamant about their political beliefs. I had my head in the sand. If I have anything to do with it, as well as a whole bunch of people around here (& across the country), right will win out (long-term).

Spare me the concern, Dems. LOL. Police your own side with the masks (protests, etc.). They aren't worn in a lot of places from what I'm hearing. Is this rally a concern in more ways than one? Sure, but we'll deal with it.

Edited by Football Jones

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10 hours ago, Football Jones said:

All I know is the narrative changed from what I (& others) were hearing early on. It's just odd to me.

Anyway, all I can tell you is a trusted doctor told me "not very". That said, I may start asking around to see what other doctors think. My stepson is a doctor, but I haven't asked him the direct question.

 

The narrative didn't change. The amount of knowledge about Covid-19 did. The narrative is, and always has been, limiting the spread of a novel virus against which we have zero immunity, but any information is bound to change once more is learned. That's how science works.

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Just now, Kal El said:

The narrative didn't change. The amount of knowledge about Covid-19 did. The narrative is, and always has been, limiting the spread of a novel virus against which we have zero immunity, but any information is bound to change once more is learned. That's how science works.

Yeah, I've heard that one before, too.

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Just now, Football Jones said:

Yeah, I've heard that one before, too.

Evidently you didn't listen then, either. I would be more surprised if, when encountering a new virus, the efforts to combat it didn't change as time goes on. That shows an unwillingness to learn on the part of whoever's doing the research.

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Posted (edited)

Last I'll comment on masks, but I don't think anyone is saying they don't help at all (like zero). 

Again, we all make decisions based on the data we believe in, along with many other factors. It is what it is.

BTW, the narrative absolutely did change because I started asking around. Nearly everyone said the same thing. I have a feeling I know why it changed, but it doesn't matter. At this point, it really doesn't.

Edited by Football Jones

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Just now, Football Jones said:

Last I'll comment on masks, but I don't think anyone is saying they don't help at all (like zero). 

Again, we all make decisions based on the data we believe in along with many other factors. It is what it is.

BTW, the narrative did absolutely change because I started asking around. Nearly everyone said the same thing. I have a feeling why it changed, but it doesn't matter. At this point, it really doesn't.

If you end up going to the rally, best of luck to you. I hope all goes well for you and the other attendees. Will be interested to hear your report on the day’s events if you go. 

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Just now, bigbottom said:

If you end up going to the rally, best of luck to you. I hope all goes well for you and the other attendees. Will be interested to hear your report on the day’s events if you go. 

I'm not going. Got a conflict & I wasn't absolutely sure I was going, anyway.

That said, I'd like to go to a political rally sometime.

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1 minute ago, bigbottom said:

If you end up going to the rally, best of luck to you. I hope all goes well for you and the other attendees. Will be interested to hear your report on the day’s events if you go. 

BTW, I'll have reports. How detailed, I'm not sure.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

Well, that op-ed piece represents a VERY small percentage of people's opinions around here. 

Anyway, the rally looks like it's going down. People can cry all the want. The protests caused a lot of real tears.

At this point, it's a fight for what's right. As I look into things I was naive about, I see why people are so adamant about their political beliefs. I had my head in the sand. If I have anything to do with it, as well as a whole bunch of people around here (& the country), right will win out (long-term).

Spare me the concern, Dems. LOL. Police your own side with the masks (protests, etc.). They aren't worn in a lot of places from what I'm hearing. Is this rally a concern in more ways than one? Sure, but we'll deal with it.

Is Tulsa World the major Tulsa newspaper?

Edit: Looks like they are.  And one with a right-center bias: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/tulsa-world/

This is a strong statement.  We'll see how much influence it has on Tulsan opinion.

 

Edited by Juxtatarot
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12 minutes ago, Football Jones said:

Last I'll comment on masks, but I don't think anyone is saying they don't help at all (like zero). 

Again, we all make decisions based on the data we believe in along with many other factors. It is what it is.

BTW, the narrative absolutely did change because I started asking around. Nearly everyone said the same thing. I have a feeling I know why it changed, but it doesn't matter. At this point, it really doesn't.

The links I provided last night are all the current thinking from the top health professionals in the entire world. Regardless of what it was eight weeks ago this is where it is now.   

Again this isn’t about your ability to make a decision it’s your right, it’s about whether you’re being responsible or not. And if you’re not wearing a mask in public you’re not. Whether you believe it or not. But again it’s certainly your choice. 

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20 minutes ago, Football Jones said:
21 minutes ago, Kal El said:

The narrative didn't change. The amount of knowledge about Covid-19 did. The narrative is, and always has been, limiting the spread of a novel virus against which we have zero immunity, but any information is bound to change once more is learned. That's how science works.

Yeah, I've heard that one before, too.

Can you unpack this a little?

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3 minutes ago, Juxtatarot said:

Is Tulsa World the major Tulsa newspaper?

Yes.

I think the Tribune went out of business, but not sure.

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