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The Great 2020 All Time Movie Draft- The judging is heavily biased against me. It’s a hoax! Fake news.

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27 minutes ago, Zow said:

90s rankings: 

6.       (11 points) The Big Lebowski – Maybe a tad high of a ranking here, and maybe I’m a bit biased because I’ve been quoting it with friends for years and have seen it dozens of times, but dammit this movie is just so good. I apologize for and admit to an extent that this ranking doesn’t totally fit by criteria laid out above

I read your criteria and thought it was doomed. But I agree - it transcends the critics a bit. I'll bet if they were to revisit with a current review, it would fare much better today.

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10 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I'll take it for The Matrix.

I just didn't get Pulp Fiction the one time I watched it. Some day I'll give it another chance.

Almost ranked it third. Super close with usual suspects. 

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3 minutes ago, EYLive said:

I'm pleasantly surprised Nightmare Before Christmas got 4 points. It was the only movie of its type in the category so it could have been much worse.

I am one of those that doesn't "get" The Big Lebowski. People seem to love it so I suppose I'm in the minority. Trainspotting was one I considered, but while I found it crazy impactful, I didn't love it so I selected one of my personal favorites.

Question for @Zow, how would American History X have fared in this category? I think I moved it to Suspense.

Probably 7th overall. Another personal favorite from the decade and it has the critical backing I believe. 

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Posted (edited)

Also @Gally please trust me when I say that I tried to find reasoning to rank Rounders higher. It just had zero acclaim, wasn’t near the top of any rankings or list I could find, and did just okay relatively in meta critic, imdb, and RT. 
 

If this was a draft based on the criteria of “what would a guy currently in his mid-30s but was the prime audience for this sort of movie at the time” then Rounders would be top tier and movies like Boondock Saints, Tommy Boy, American History X, Dumb and Dumber, etc. would all be top ten and we’d have a mutiny on our hands. 

Edited by Zow
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nice job Zow 

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9 minutes ago, EYLive said:

I'm pleasantly surprised Nightmare Before Christmas got 4 points. It was the only movie of its type in the category so it could have been much worse.
 

Going back to this comment, when I did my initial rankings I had it last. But when I applied what I thought was a fair and objective criteria, I had to move it up at least one tier. Like Life is Beautiful, it’s a movie I have no personal desire to see again but I get that it’s something special. 

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4 minutes ago, joffer said:

nice job Zow 

Thank you. Did the best I could. This is harder than ranking the sports categories. Glad I did it though bc I got to see raise the red lantern. 

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8 minutes ago, Zow said:

Going back to this comment, when I did my initial rankings I had it last. But when I applied what I thought was a fair and objective criteria, I had to move it up at least one tier. Like Life is Beautiful, it’s a movie I have no personal desire to see again but I get that it’s something special. 

For someone that claims to dislike musicals, I sure do love me some musicals.

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15 minutes ago, Zow said:

Also @Gally please trust me when I tried to find reasoning to rank Rounders higher. It just had zero acclaim, wasn’t near the top of any rankings or list I could find, did just okay relatively in meta critic, imdb, and RT. 
 

If this was a draft based on the criteria of “what would a guy in his mid-30s but was the prime audience for this sort of movie” then Rounders would be top tier and movies like Boondock Saints, Tommy Boy, American History X, Dumb and Dumber, etc. would all be top ten and we’d have a mutiny on our hands. 

I get it.  Like I said, once you listed your criteria of critics, awards etc I knew it was doomed.  Based on how you outlined your criteria it fits.

 

I don't know enough movies so there is no way I could be a judge.  If I was a judge I would be about the enjoyment of the movie.  Critics to me suck out all the fun of movies.  I am surprised how many judges are relying so heavily on critics ratings and I didn't think that would happen.  I thought it would be more personalized to how the judges liked the movies.  There is no right answer and you layed out your criteria perfectly.  You are the judge and did a great job based on that criteria. 

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19 minutes ago, Gally said:

If I was a judge I would be about the enjoyment of the movie.  Critics to me suck out all the fun of movies.  I am surprised how many judges are relying so heavily on critics ratings and I didn't think that would happen.  I thought it would be more personalized to how the judges liked the movies.  

This is correct. Too many people put too much stock in what other people think instead of what they think. Drafting a movie you've never seen is downright silly as well. Parroting critics about old movies being great/classics just because they're old has led me to not trust recommendations as willingly.

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2 hours ago, joffer said:

nice job Zow 

:goodposting: 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Nice job, @Zow - just curious since I did the end of the draft shuffle, how would Heat have scored in 90s?

Tier three probably. 
 

Thinking on it a bit since I didn’t consider it initially, I’d have it a notch below LA Confidential. 
 

Personally I think Heat suffers a bit because it’s in the shadow of Goodfellas. 

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29 minutes ago, Zow said:

Tier three probably. 
 

Thinking on it a bit since I didn’t consider it initially, I’d have it a notch below LA Confidential. 
 

Personally I think Heat suffers a bit because it’s in the shadow of Goodfellas. 

Fair, thanks.  I like the movies I took, I just wonder how many points I gained/lost from my shuffles.  

My other idea was Clerks after Reservoir Dogs was taken, and going more for the low budget feel for the 90s.  

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On 8/22/2020 at 10:46 PM, Bracie Smathers said:

6. Full Metal Jacket 11 pts

'Show me your warface.'

Directing and script by Kubrick.  Fantastic cast yet Kubrick would cast unknown actors and in this one he plucked Matthew Modine as the lead and brilliantly cast Vincent D'Onofrio as troubled pvt. Pyle and we all know the brilliance of R. Lee Ermey as the fanatical DI.  No one would confuse them with A-listers.   

Kubrick was a certified genius who did an absolutely sick amount of research so he deservedly gets a lot of credit but Ermey basically forced Kubrick to change the movie to focus the beginning around  the dynamic around Ermey and D'Onofrio.  One interaction that stands out is D'Onofrio as Pyle being forced to eat a jelly donut which sets into motion a series of events that end in tragedy.

The switch to Nam is jarring but doesn't have the same punch since the primary fighting scene is city fighting which is reminiscent of WW II flicks.  It was a staged set from where Stanley was living at the time, England.  Modine is the main character and the journey that Kubrick takes us on is riveting as we wade into an immense amount of gun fire as we witness the makings of the 1,000 yard stare. 

5.  Ran 12 pts

Considered one of the greatest films ever made, a true epic and the most expensive movie ever made in Japan at the time.  Ran is the Japanese name of chaos or turmoil.  From another legendary director Akira Kurosawa.  Beethoven was nearly deaf as he composed late in his conducting career and the last ten years of directing Kurosawa was nearly blind.  He had made extensive sketches of his beautifully colored shots long before shooting.  He conceived the idea for Ran in the early 70s, the film was made in 1985.

I can't begin to explain how incredible each and every shot is from this movie.  The framing, the lighting, the color schemes, the coordinated movements, high shots, low shots, deep focus, zoom, early morning light catching rays off of the top of high colored foliage over sweeping fields with colored flags in movement in the background.  Late evening light showing troops in movement in a different direction.  Shots above a map showing troop movements with non-scale real action, and then how Akira moves the camera through staged sets like going through a painting.  Speaking of painting, Kurosawa had an entire field painted gold for a shot but cut it out.  Add, I have to mention the COSTUMES!  My god I'm speechless.   Its staggering how he had mastered his craft by this point.  The only thing that doesn't hold up well are some of the long zoom shots as a few are too distorted by heat waves and dust.

The actors do a fine job but make no mistake Akira Kurosawa dominates the movie with his genius creating pure pageantry.  In addition to his work as director Akira also wrote the script which is a Japanese 'version' of King Lear with a feudal warlord splitting his fiefdom among his three children while 'trying' to still maintain control.  The lord takes three arrows and holds them together showing the combined strength but notes a single arrow is easier to break, one son takes all three arrows and breaks them across his knee setting in motion the carnage to follow.   Some felt the warlord was based off of Kurosawa.

4.  Platoon 13 pts

'All right you cheese-#####, welcome to the Nam.'

Oliver Stone enlisted and volunteered for combat duty.  He wrote the script and had the internal dialogue pitch perfect.  Incredible cast starring Charlie Sheen, Willem Dafoe, Tom Berenger, David Keith, John C. Mginley, when Forrest Whitaker and Johnny Depp are extras you know this is an incredible cast.  

The scenes are heart wrenching, the flaming of the village, the night patrol, Dafoe running wild in the jungle, the epic fire fight, its chalk full of incredible scenes.  Powerful imagery, perfect dialogue, hitting the right emotional chords. 

Stone made the best fighting scenes of the Vietnam War but his sanity was questioned on the set as he ranted and raved to the point Depp said he was on the verge of vomiting as Oliver screamed at him and made him do another take.  PTSD?  He filmed at a fast paced as this was shot in only 54 days.  Ranks #83 on AFI's top-100 movies of all-time.  Very watchable and a must see for those who haven't gotten around to seeing it.

3.  From Here to Eternity 14 pts

The first of two movies directed by Fred Zinnerman on the list.  Excellent director.  The film won 8 Academy Awards of 13 noms.

The cast is star studded and they brought the goods in this one, Burt Lancaster, Monty Clift, Frank Sinatra, Deborah Kerr, Ernest Borgnine, and Donna Reed.  I don't know where to start but Monty Clift is just so good in everything he does.  Burt Lancaster was my favorite actor growing up and he is great.  Bognine was filming Marty and doing this at the same time.  Sinatra had his best performance ever in this movie.  The rumor is that he got the part due to his mafia connections and that story was the basis of Johnny Fontaine in the Godfather.

The backgdrop of Pearl Harbor with so many memorable scenes but the 'epic' is the beach scene with Lancaster and Kerr.  On-screen chemistry was rumored to continue off-screen between Kerr and Lancaster.  The knife fight with Maggio and Fatso.  The army refused to allow any on-screen abuse by the sadistic Fatso to be shone so all the abuse was implied off-screen.   It was acting as Borgnine and Sinatra became life long friends afterwards.  About the only sour note in the movie is the bad trumpet playing scene by Clift which is completely forgivable.   

An all-time classic.

2.  All Quiet on the Western Front 15 pts

“He fell in October 1918, on a day that was so quiet and still on the whole front, that the army report confined itself to the single sentence: All quiet on the Western Front.”
― Erich Maria Remarque, All Quiet on the Western Front

My favorite book.  I love every version of this that I've seen including the TV adaptation with Ernest Borgnine and Richard Thomas (JohnBoy Walton).  The script was written by Erich Maria Remarque and it is excellent as it follows the book to the T.  Ranked as the 7th best American film epic of all-time in 1990.  It still holds up after 90 years. 

Lew Ayers played the lead Paul Bäumer a German soldier during WW I and his gang of comrades.  In real life Remarque was a French soldier who fought at the front and the scene of the German and French soldier in the crater of no-man's land was based on real life events.  The characters are so well crafted they had to be based on real soldiers IMHO.  The film brings the battles to life but this movie is about the camaraderie of men surviving.  The horrors they face, the hopelessness, the terror, it is one of the best movies of all-time and I think its the best anti-war movie ever. 

1.  The Best Years Of Our Lives 16 pts

Directed by William Wyler.  Where Kurosawa was going blind Wyler was going deaf and had an interpreter to give instructions to actors.  Starring Fredrich March, Myrna Loy, Dana Andrews, and Harold Russel as Homer Parrish.  

Robert Sherwood wrote a brilliant script.  So many memorable scenes.  The homecoming scene is so touching, brings you to the brink of tears.  The shocking scene where Homer removes his prosthetic arms and shows his vulnerability to his fiance is one of the most memorable scenes in the history of film.  Then the scene of Andrews at the air field hits you in the chest.  

I don't even know how to explain how fantastic this movie is but it is without a doubt the best of the genre OTHER WAR.

catching up after a busy weekend... very pleased to see the Love for Best Years of Our Lives... it is an amazing movie I hope folks get a chance to see it if they have not, still holds up incredibly well.. and so poignant I think it transcends the medium..  nice review!

 

I only chose movies I loved and didn't really treat this like a fantasy draft and analyze the value picks too much I guess that's why I am not doing too well I suppose... but I love the aspect of unearthing new movies and talking about great films...

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9 hours ago, Zow said:

90s rankings: 

Preamble: I cannot promise that I am the greatest at knowing the greatest of movies (in contrast to my truly greatest ever sports knowledge), but I did choose categories I do believe I can do a decent job. Movies are difficult because, aside from maybe awards, they are so very subjective and not as easily comparable. I find the decades categories to be extremely difficult because there are varying genres. And, as to be expected, a significant number of 90s movies that would have easily scored high on or at least likely made these rankings were picked elsewhere (e.g. Hoop Dreams, Goodfellas, Toy Story, Schindler’s List, Unforgiven, Saving Private Ryan, Titanic, Dances with Wolves, Fargo,  Se7en, Reservoir Dogs, Groundhog Day, Jurassic Park, Forrest Gump, American History X, and Fight Club). Holy crap. I just realized in typing that out that movies put into other categories could have punted all but the movies in my top tier and maybe a couple in tier 2 from this list. Great decade for movies when one considers the sheer amount of comedies and other dramas/indie films that shaped people of my generation that still wouldn't sniff this list. 

Criteria:

Significant weight – RT scores, metacritic score, academy awards and nominations, etc. I don’t know of a more objective metric.

Significant weight – Critical reviews. I tried to find some reputable critics and review their rankings and input. Looked particularly at Rolling Stone and a few others. 

Medium weight – Online rankings. Looked at several and roughly averaged them out.

Medium weight – staying power. Put differently, if I showed the movie to a teenager right now what would he or she think?

Little weight – notoriety (i.e. has somebody like my father-in-law – a fairly big movie fan but more casual in his choices - likely seen it?).

Little weight – my own opinion. By that I mean my life experience and watchability for somebody growing up in the 90s. For example, I actually can’t stress the impact that movies like Billy Madison, Tommy Boy, Ace Ventura, Dumb and Dumber, Office Space, American Pie, Chasing Amy, Boondock Saints, Clerks, and Friday had on me as a kid and young adult but I recognize that I shouldn’t force feed a mid-30s perspective on this. 

Little weight – the drafters’ comments (of which I’ve only seen two).

Glaring omissions: Chungking Express, American Beauty, and Close-up.

Somewhat surprising omissions (probably wouldn’t have ranked last of the 16 picked): Being John Malkovich, Hunt for Red October, Kids, Before Sunrise, Quiz Show, Princess Mononoke, Sling Blade, and Eyes Wide Shut.  

 

Tier 1 – Genre makers or changers (note: Goodfellas, Schindler’s List, Shawshank Redemption, and Hoop Dreams would have made this tier and possibly been tops for the category):

1.       (16 points) Pulp Fiction – Tarantino at his best. Consistently rated the top of most online rankings for the 90s (others were Goodfellas, Schindler’s List, Toy Story, and Close-up) Tarantino basically took the art of storytelling and just messed with it by re-arranging the chronology of the movie and including some far over the top violence and gore. No ride quite like this movie and certainly nothing seen previously. Oddly, not my favorite Tarantino film (I liked Reservoir Dogs and Inglorious Basterds better) but it’s definitely his best movie and tops the decade.

2.       (15 points) Silence of the Lambs – Only Oscar Winner for best picture drafted in the category, the movie basically revolutionized the suspense + horror genre and created a top 3 villain of all-time.

Tier 2 – Really, really ####### cool movies:

3.       (14 points) The Usual Suspects – Great story-telling and acting culminating in a memorable twist that makes the viewer question what he or she just saw. Just ####### cool.

4.       (13 points) The Matrix – Turned sci-fi on its head with new, ultra-cool graphics and included, in true 90s fashion, a surprising and satisfying twist.

5.       (12 points) Boogie Nights – Superb acting and storytelling. Also brought legitimacy to Mark Wahlberg and, to some extent, the porn industry. Plus, the coolness of Burt Reynolds and, you know, Roller Girl.

6.       (11 points) The Big Lebowski – Maybe a tad high of a ranking here, and maybe I’m a bit biased because I’ve been quoting it with friends for years and have seen it dozens of times, but dammit this movie is just so good. I apologize for and admit to an extent that this ranking doesn’t totally fit by criteria laid out above

Tier 3 –Just good drama and suspense:

7.       (10 points) LA Confidential – Originally outside the top ten for me, as I researched and applied the criteria above it rose up the rankings. 90 score on Metacritic, won some Oscars, and was a good movie that stands up all right today.

8.       (9 points) Glengarry Glen Ross – Really impressive cast. Respectable Metacritic score and up for several notable awards. Not sure if it totally holds up today, and I juggled this one around the rankings a bit, but it seemed to compare most with the other movies in this tier.

9.       (8 points) Good Will Hunting – A personal favorite of mine, it scored out well with critics and I actually recall my parents talking about how good it was. Williams is fantastic. Damon and Afleck make essentially their debuts. And I still think it holds up well. I’m very glad they didn’t go the “codebreaking” direction originally intended and stuck with the genius kid who can’t handle life motif.

10.   (7 points) The Green Mile – Struggled with this movie a bit too but it scores out well based on the criteria and it was a very good movie. Frankly, one of the best book to screen adaptations of a King novel. Great cast. And Mr. Bojangles.

Tier 4 – Movies that are foreign to me:

11.   (6 points) Raise the Red Lantern – Really glad I got to see this movie as I didn’t even know it existed before I opted to judge this category. Loved the use of colors and that they never showed the Master’s face. The descent into madness is believable and well-acted. Thanks to whoever drafted this.

12.   (5 points) Life is Beautiful – Just not my thing – I don’t find the comedy to be funny and the substance matter (which takes a bit to get into) was a tough watch. Nonetheless, I recognize the critical reception and awards this movie one and I can’t justify putting this lower.

13.   (4 points) The Nightmare Before Christmas – visually-stunning and the animation was great for its time. Admittedly, I don’t really like the movie, but respect the filmmaking.

Tier 5 – The re-watchables (frankly, I love the movies in this tier but they didn’t score out that well)

14.    (3 points) Trainspotting – a fun, well-shot ride. One of the few movies I’ve seen where it just seemed “different.”

15.   (2 points) Boyz n the Hood – pretty groundbreaking for its time; I think it still holds up well today. Obviously incredibly well-casted, it was nominated for two Oscars and won a several other awards. Good, gritty movie with a compelling story and characters. Iconic. Maybe could have been ranked higher.

16.   (1 point) Rounders – Amazingly, I’m ranking my favorite and most-watched movie of the decade last in the category. My roommate and I in college must have watched this movie every night for several months nearly straight. I thought I was Mike McD and this movie is probably a huge reason why I spent a large chunk of time at a poker table. But, using my criteria, it just doesn’t add up to the other movies on this list despite it being my favorite. I sort of broke my rules ranking the Big Lebowski so high but I can't justify it here. 

great job, I won't have too many shots at 16 I think... was hoping for this one for Silence, but can't argue with Pulp it's a great film...

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1 hour ago, mphtrilogy said:

great job, I won't have too many shots at 16 I think... was hoping for this one for Silence, but can't argue with Pulp it's a great film...

It was super close. I initially had silence at 1 due to the Oscar for best picture but Pulp slipped ahead when I factored in online rankings (consistently top three whereas silence was surprisingly not) and weighed out its overall impact and how it’s viewed today. 

 

Admittedly, my top 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 were really, really close and could went either way (meaning it could have been silence, pulp, matrix, usual). 

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9 hours ago, EYLive said:

This is correct. Too many people put too much stock in what other people think instead of what they think. Drafting a movie you've never seen is downright silly as well. Parroting critics about old movies being great/classics just because they're old has led me to not trust recommendations as willingly.

That's not typically the reason. Movies are clearly made for entertainment, but they are also art. Hence the importance of the critical eye (imho). 

Movies are also a slice of the time they were made. The effects and production, the way the actors act, the stories told, etc. It doesn't always translate forward, especially to a mass audience. If you watch a great old science fiction film or maybe a western, then watch a newer one, most folks will enjoy the newer ones more because of more/better action, deeper story, and superior production values. That's certainly a valid opinion, but it also then turns "greatest movies" into a recent-fest.

My teen nephews don't see greatness in Star Wars or Empire... they prefer the newer Star Wars movies, as well as all things Marvel, waaaaay more.   

 

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12 minutes ago, jwb said:

That's not typically the reason. Movies are clearly made for entertainment, but they are also art. Hence the importance of the critical eye (imho). 

Movies are also a slice of the time they were made. The effects and production, the way the actors act, the stories told, etc. It doesn't always translate forward, especially to a mass audience. If you watch a great old science fiction film or maybe a western, then watch a newer one, most folks will enjoy the newer ones more because of more/better action, deeper story, and superior production values. That's certainly a valid opinion, but it also then turns "greatest movies" into a recent-fest.

My teen nephews don't see greatness in Star Wars or Empire... they prefer the newer Star Wars movies, as well as all things Marvel, waaaaay more.   

 

we could use a veterans committee like the baseball hall of fame ;)

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Strike up the band, gather the chorus girls and start dancing, musical rankings are on the way 

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28 minutes ago, jwb said:

That's not typically the reason. Movies are clearly made for entertainment, but they are also art. Hence the importance of the critical eye (imho). 

Movies are also a slice of the time they were made. The effects and production, the way the actors act, the stories told, etc. It doesn't always translate forward, especially to a mass audience. If you watch a great old science fiction film or maybe a western, then watch a newer one, most folks will enjoy the newer ones more because of more/better action, deeper story, and superior production values. That's certainly a valid opinion, but it also then turns "greatest movies" into a recent-fest.

My teen nephews don't see greatness in Star Wars or Empire... they prefer the newer Star Wars movies, as well as all things Marvel, waaaaay more.   

 

speaking of old stuff, thought this crowd may enjoy this WSj article from the weekend on John Ford's silent era, with the great Harry Carey from Mr. Smith!

 

Quote

John Ford’s films are central to the American cinematic psyche. In westerns like “Stagecoach” (1939), “My Darling Clementine” (1946) and “The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance” (1962), to say nothing of his so-called Cavalry Trilogy (1948-50), Ford distilled and dissected New World mythos, including Manifest Destiny. He explored other aspects of American life, too, and occasionally—in movies like “How Green Was My Valley” (1941) and “The Quiet Man” (1952)—even ventured beyond this continent.

But westerns were where it all began for Ford, and it is to these early, silent films that one must return to appreciate and understand this complicated and conflicted American auteur. Unfortunately, the bulk of America’s silent-film legacy has been lost to time, fate and the elements, and this holds true for Ford’s work as well. He made over 60 silent shorts and features, but only 25 are known to have survived in whole or part. (Happily, that list keeps growing, albeit slowly, as various international archives continue to find Ford titles long thought extinct.)

“Straight Shooting” (1917), Ford’s first full-length picture, and “Hell Bent” (1918), a feature released just 10 months later, both with the western star Harry Carey as the lead, are among the most important of these films. And each is now easily watchable in a strikingly clear transfer thanks to a joint venture between Universal Pictures, the modern incarnation of the studio that originally produced and released these movies, and which recently restored them in 4K, and Kino Lorber, which is distributing them on Blu-ray and DVD, coupled with generous and enlightening bonus features. (“Straight Shooting” appeared last month; “Hell Bent” is available Aug. 25.)

Ford had come to Hollywood from Maine to join his brother Francis in the film business during its formative years, when a person could start in the industry by doing menial tasks and rise quickly, which is exactly what Ford (then credited as Jack rather than John) did. Soon enough, he surpassed his once-famous brother as a director. “Straight Shooting” was a milestone in his development and remains an impressively cogent work, containing many of the tropes and much of the grammar we’ve come to associate with westerns generally and with Ford’s work in particular.


In both films, Carey, whom Ford later credited as a mentor, plays a bad man turned good—a recurring character named Cheyenne Harry, whom the actor would portray in nearly 25 shorts and features for Ford in less than four years. “Straight Shooting” finds him as a hired gun, employed by cattlemen determined to drive out peaceable settlers. But when Harry sees the results of these actions, he has a change of heart and determines to help the settlers, going so far as to enlist others to their aid. In the end, it’s suggested this vagabond gunslinger will settle down to work the farm of an old man whose son was murdered in the conflict and whose daughter Harry will likely marry.

“Hell Bent” uses a Frederic Remington painting (the artist’s work had a huge influence on Ford’s visual style) as a springboard to a more convoluted drama in which Harry comes to the rescue of a local maiden, whom the villains have kidnapped despite their being in league with her shiftless brother. By film’s end, the would-be lovers, thwarted no more, seem destined for matrimony.

Carey was not the only actor Ford enjoyed working with regularly—as his long collaboration with John Wayne from “Stagecoach” on attests. And so it is in the early movies that the melodiously named Vester Pegg plays both the young boy’s mustachioed killer in “Straight Shooting” and the ingénue’s clean-shaven cowardly brother in “Hell Bent.” Same thing with Duke Lee, who plays the chief villain in “Straight Shooting” and Harry’s stalwart pal in “Hell Bent.” Both actors ultimately appeared in 17 silents directed by Ford, most lost now.

In addition to the gleaming transfers, Universal has also provided new, thematically apt scores for these films—by Michael Gatt for “Straight Shooting” and Zachary Marsh for “Hell Bent,” whose contributions substantially enrich the viewing experience. Kino’s additions—new full-length audio commentaries by Joseph McBride and new video essays by Tag Gallagher, both esteemed Ford scholars—elevate the releases from interesting to educational. Each film becomes an immersive experience when coupled with its supplements, and when the packages are watched in quick succession something close to a crash course in early Ford emerges.

One must hope that Universal not only continues to restore its silent-film heritage with such care, but also that companies like Kino continue to enhance and distribute this material to an audience of film lovers hungry for more.

 

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10 hours ago, Gally said:

I get it.  Like I said, once you listed your criteria of critics, awards etc I knew it was doomed.  Based on how you outlined your criteria it fits.

 

I don't know enough movies so there is no way I could be a judge.  If I was a judge I would be about the enjoyment of the movie.  Critics to me suck out all the fun of movies.  I am surprised how many judges are relying so heavily on critics ratings and I didn't think that would happen.  I thought it would be more personalized to how the judges liked the movies.  There is no right answer and you layed out your criteria perfectly.  You are the judge and did a great job based on that criteria. 

 

10 hours ago, EYLive said:

This is correct. Too many people put too much stock in what other people think instead of what they think. Drafting a movie you've never seen is downright silly as well. Parroting critics about old movies being great/classics just because they're old has led me to not trust recommendations as willingly.

Just like anything - there is a time and place for critics.  Like I posted before - I don't think you get a ton from them if looking at specific genres that they usually don't click with anyway - like my example of horror movies.  About the only ones they love are movies filled with social commentary or things they can analyze like Get Out.   0 chance many critics are going to like the new Chlid's Play movie, but we all know that ahead of time.  

I think also what's gives critics a bad name now is since the birth of internet everybody is a "critic",  and when you look at the list of critics used on something like Rotten Tomatoes, there are a lot of Joe Moviegoer from Santa Fe Gazette types on there.  Not sure what we get out that info as well.  

All that said, like jwb post said, movies are an art form.   Just like any art there are multiple ways to consume it and think about it - there is now right or wrong.   I just think critics get #### on a little bit too much for attempting to talk about thinks that are part of the art - story, directing, cinematography, etc..   That all goes into the movie.    I equate it in my mind to music.  I would imagine that somebody trained and knows a lot about music might have trouble sitting down and listening to some metal stuff I like.  They would be able to listen to and appreciate something more complicated like jazz more than I would.   Doesn't make it right or wrong, it just is.    Same with movies - if I just want to be entertained for 120 mins, I am probably not going to seek out what critics think of the new Marvel movie.  (though I do find it interesting what action or horror movies do show up on critic lists).    But just like a the example before, I assume somebody more knowledgeable about movies or who went o film school would appreciate something different than I might, and I like to read their opinions and figure out what they are talking about.   To me it's not that they are trying to take the fun out of anything it's just what they know and understand.  (yes, there are some snooty critics too)

I know I am a broken record, but that's why I bring up the Cine-Files podcast so much.  One guy is a teacher at film school, and the other does v.o. work.  Sure they do some movies like Citizen Kane on the podcast, but this last week it was Major League and they got into discussing how well scripted it was b/c of the economical intros to all the characters and other things.  

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20 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Strike up the band, gather the chorus girls and start dancing, musical rankings are on the way 

:scared:

 

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Long story short, yes - there can be some blowhard critics that their shtick could be to #### on anything remotely popular.    

For me, I have just tried to cling on to a few that I usually end up liking a good portion of what they like and use them for ideas of movies I haven't seen - Ie The AV Club.  Otherwise, I don't really read or look at critic scores too much, I tend listen to podcasts more and then read books and watch bonus features a bit.  I think by now most of us can guess what movies critics will like anyway.  

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I like Ebert's reviews because I know the movies we agree on and which we DISAGREE on, so I can extrapolate from that sample.

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@krista4 and @Ilov80s -  I need to write down and save the movies I was supposed to watch from you two.  

80s - I believe it was Battle of Algiers and ?

krista - it was Z and ?

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Just now, Andy Dufresne said:

I like Ebert's reviews because I know the movies we agree on and which we DISAGREE on, so I can extrapolate from that sample.

I am curious - what are examples of what you know you will disagree on?

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13 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

 

Just like anything - there is a time and place for critics.  Like I posted before - I don't think you get a ton from them if looking at specific genres that they usually don't click with anyway - like my example of horror movies.  About the only ones they love are movies filled with social commentary or things they can analyze like Get Out.   0 chance many critics are going to like the new Chlid's Play movie, but we all know that ahead of time.  

I think also what's gives critics a bad name now is since the birth of internet everybody is a "critic",  and when you look at the list of critics used on something like Rotten Tomatoes, there are a lot of Joe Moviegoer from Santa Fe Gazette types on there.  Not sure what we get out that info as well.  

All that said, like jwb post said, movies are an art form.   Just like any art there are multiple ways to consume it and think about it - there is now right or wrong.   I just think critics get #### on a little bit too much for attempting to talk about thinks that are part of the art - story, directing, cinematography, etc..   That all goes into the movie.    I equate it in my mind to music.  I would imagine that somebody trained and knows a lot about music might have trouble sitting down and listening to some metal stuff I like.  They would be able to listen to and appreciate something more complicated like jazz more than I would.   Doesn't make it right or wrong, it just is.    Same with movies - if I just want to be entertained for 120 mins, I am probably not going to seek out what critics think of the new Marvel movie.  (though I do find it interesting what action or horror movies do show up on critic lists).    But just like a the example before, I assume somebody more knowledgeable about movies or who went o film school would appreciate something different than I might, and I like to read their opinions and figure out what they are talking about.   To me it's not that they are trying to take the fun out of anything it's just what they know and understand.  (yes, there are some snooty critics too)

I know I am a broken record, but that's why I bring up the Cine-Files podcast so much.  One guy is a teacher at film school, and the other does v.o. work.  Sure they do some movies like Citizen Kane on the podcast, but this last week it was Major League and they got into discussing how well scripted it was b/c of the economical intros to all the characters and other things.  

Critics have their place for sure.  If you are trying to find a deeper meaning or how to make a movie.   If the category is cinematography or social impact or etc. then maybe using a critics view makes sense.  I guess I just thought that for a message board draft for fun there would be a lot less critic involvement and more personal involvement.  Neither is right or wrong it was just my expectations (I should have known better.  Expectations ruin everything...hahahaha). 

 

This has been a great learning experience for sure as there are a ton of movies I have never heard of getting high praise that I will try and watch now. 

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4 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I am curious - what are examples of what you know you will disagree on?

Off the top of my head, that's kind of tough but...

I mentioned before that I think he missed the point of Fight Club completely.

I agreed with him that Blue Velvet was kinda gross. 

Maybe I just like when he triggers my confirmation bias. 

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11 hours ago, Zow said:

Other than the judge saying it was his personal favorite movie of the decade?

Well if the judge put it where it should have gone based on the judges personal view of the movie then it would have gotten what it deserved...….hahahahahah.   Kidding of course.....I just couldn't resist.   It could also be that I really didn't care for Pulp Fiction, The Matrix, The Usual Suspects, and The Big Lebowski.  I just didn't get the hype on all those or why everyone drools all over them.  The Big Lebowski was ok and probably is better to quote or reference than actually watch and the other three just weren't that great to me.  I also would have had Boyz n the Hood, Good Will Hunting, The Green Mile up higher and Silence of the Lambs and Boogie Nights were about right.   I haven't seen the others. 

 

Actually, this is probably the 4th or 5th time a judge has specifically said (in some manner) that our pick was lower in the rankings than they think it should have been...…..yet kept it at the lower position.  That just seems like an odd statement coming from a judge that is in charge of where the pick goes. 

 

Bottom line is you laid out your criteria well and followed it.  Great job based on what you wanted to judge by.  Very well thought out and justified.  Thanks for the time and effort it is very much appreciated. 

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7 minutes ago, Gally said:

Critics have their place for sure.  If you are trying to find a deeper meaning or how to make a movie.   If the category is cinematography or social impact or etc. then maybe using a critics view makes sense.  I guess I just thought that for a message board draft for fun there would be a lot less critic involvement and more personal involvement.  Neither is right or wrong it was just my expectations (I should have known better.  Expectations ruin everything...hahahaha). 

 

This has been a great learning experience for sure as there are a ton of movies I have never heard of getting high praise that I will try and watch now. 

I agree for the most part.  I think people are using it to balance the pure subjective nature of just using their opinions, and I get that impulse.   I get using them more for the best of decade movies  but not if we are using them for action and horror movies.   My expectation for the judges were to give the list a personal flair while trying to keep in context the categories the movies were drafted in and trying to balance old and new.  

As far as the bolded, I couldn't agree more.  Just like the countless music drafts we've down, at the end of the day I walk away with a win if I watch and love a few movies I haven't seen before because of this, or somebody tries one of my movies they haven't seen and love it.  

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As long as we're on the subject:
Ebert's 50 Harshest reviews

Quote

40. How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days (2003)

"Matthew McConaughey and Kate Hudson star. I neglected to mention that, maybe because I was trying to place them in this review's version of the Witness Protection Program. If I were taken off the movie beat and assigned to cover the interior design of bowling alleys, I would have some idea of how they must have felt as they made this film." — Roger Ebert

Quote

30. The Last Airbender (2010)

"The Last Airbender is an agonizing experience in every category I can think of and others still waiting to be invented. The laws of chance suggest that something should have gone right. Not here. It puts a nail in the coffin of low-rent 3D, but it will need a lot more coffins than that.” — Roger Ebert

Quote

23. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (2009)

"If you want to save yourself the ticket price, go into the kitchen, cue up a male choir singing the music of hell, and get a kid to start banging pots and pans together. Then close your eyes and use your imagination." — Roger Ebert

Quote

22. The Village (2004)

"To call it an anticlimax would be an insult not only to climaxes but to prefixes. It's a crummy secret, about one step up the ladder of narrative originality from It Was All a Dream. It's so witless, in fact, that when we do discover the secret, we want to rewind the film so we don't know the secret anymore. And then keep on rewinding, and rewinding, until we're back at the beginning, and can get up from our seats and walk backward out of the theater and go down the up escalator and watch the money spring from the cash register into our pockets."

Quote

16. Battle: Los Angeles (2011)

"Young men: If you attend this crap with friends who admire it, tactfully inform them they are idiots. Young women: If your date likes this movie, tell him you've been thinking it over, and you think you should consider spending some time apart." 

Quote

14. Battlefield Earth (2000)

"Battlefield Earth is like taking a bus trip with someone who has needed a bath for a long time. It's not merely bad; it's unpleasant in a hostile way." 

Quote

9. The Brown Bunny (2003)

"I had a colonoscopy once, and they let me watch it on TV. It was more entertaining than The Brown Bunny." 

Quote

8. Armageddon (1998)

"No matter what they're charging to get in, it's worth more to get out."

 

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Posted (edited)

Musicals 

@timschochet @Mrs. Rannous and her husband also ranked the movies. I added up the points from all our judging to get an overall list. It seems we all have seen each movie on the list so these rankings I think leaned more personal preference than status- but I would not say status was totally irrelevant. Also, at least 1 judge was a bit picky about what wasn't musical enough and what was too musical. We had a couple of ties. Tiebreaker was the RT critics + audience. 

Enjoy this little Spotify playlist with songs from our musicals as you read the rankings and formulate your vitriolic replies. 

1 pt  Guys and Dolls:  Nobody had it higher than 5 points. Nathan Detroit is great but Brando ruins the movie. 

2 pts Moulin Rouge: Two of us had it as the worst of the list, another gave it 11 points. One judge even said it was the only movie selected that they actively hate. 

3 pts The Umbrellas of Cherbourg:  It was dinged for having too much music in it. 

4 pts The Lion King: Voters did not feel too much love tonight, high score of 7. We all preferred the other Disney movie chosen. 

5pts Once: High score of 9 and low score of 3. Knock was a lack of memorable songs hurt it's sing along quality but really nice little movie. 

6 pts Willy Wonka: One voter had it dead last, the other two both gave it 9 points. One of the movies that received the "was it a musical or movie with music in it" tag. 

7 pts All That Jazz: Low score of 2 and high score 11, may have suffered from being the 2nd most popular Bob Fosse movie chosen

8 pts Top Hat: Received scores of 6,6 and 11. It's the best of the Ginger and Fred movies and is by far the oldest film taken for the category. 

9 pts Chicago: An 11 point discrepancy between it's high and low score. More great numbers than they could even fit into the movie raved a judge.

10 pts Beauty and the Beast: One of the most consistently scored movies with 8,8 and 10. The judges all liked a talking clock doing a Maurice Chevalier impression. 

11 pts Grease: Equally consistent with scores of 10,10, and 8. This movie and songs were drilled into my head by all the girls in middle and high school. 

12 pts My Fair Lady: High score of 13 and low score 3.  Who can resist Rex Harrison singing, "Can you turn a ho into a housewife?" 

13 pts Cabaret: Scored 15 points twice but also got a 5. Was perhaps considered too depressing for a musical. 

14 pts The Sound of Music:  The battle for 2nd place was the closest. Tied total judges score and only 2 points separating them on the RT tiebreaker. 

15 pts West Side Story: Well crafted, original and memorable. Also a gangster movie. 

16 pts Singin' in the Rain: Clean sweep. 16 points from every judge. 

Edited by Ilov80s
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5 minutes ago, Gally said:

It could also be that I really didn't care for Pulp Fiction, The Matrix, The Usual Suspects, and The Big Lebowski. 

This is a little surprising as each are great at what they do/what they are. I do know Pulp Fiction is fairly polarizing but I thought the rest were (for the most part) universally liked.

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4 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I like Ebert's reviews because I know the movies we agree on and which we DISAGREE on, so I can extrapolate from that sample.

Same. Even when I was a kid and was first catching their old Sneak Previews show on PBS ... the stuff Ebert liked (especially when disagreeing with Siskel) I usually liked, too. 

This is the full video of the first Sneak Previews episode I can remember watching -- the one where they reviewed Altered States among others. Within the first minute that episode, the image of of William Hurt turning into "Bib Fortuna meets The Wall" was permanently burned into my brain. I finally got to see the entire film in college, and was just as enthralled and creeped-out as my 9-year-old self expected to be.

Their Altered States review starts at about 18:00, and the thumb-up/down verdicts at 26:20. And yep -- Ebert loved it, Siskel hated it.

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2 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

As long as we're on the subject:
Ebert's 50 Harshest reviews

 

I liked The Village and like Armageddon (for a popcorn flick) but most of those movies deserved the harsh takes - well the Village probably does as well but for whatever reason I liked it. I guess the "twist" didn't really ruin the movie for me because I assumed they were in modern times and just isolated from the beginning.

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2 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

@Ilov80s - how do you think South Park would have fared in the category?

Impossible for me to say since I'm only one of the 4 people who judged. 

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4 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

 

6 pts Willy Wonka: One voter had it dead last, the other two both gave it 9 points. One of the movies that received the "was it a musical or movie with music in it" tag. 

 

I don't mind the ranking - wasn't counting on a great score - but no offense towards that judge but the bolded makes no sense AT ALL.

It's listed as a musical everywhere and there's 13 songs in a 100 minute movie. 

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4 minutes ago, Doug B said:

... the stuff Ebert liked (especially when disagreeing with Siskel) I usually liked, too. 

I was the opposite and tended to agree much more with Siskel.

But I won't post any more overly negative comments about Ebert so we that will all be spared hearing Bracie's long winded defense of him a third time. 

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I liked The Village and like Armageddon (for a popcorn flick) but most of those movies deserved the harsh takes - well the Village probably does as well but for whatever reason I liked it. I guess the "twist" didn't really ruin the movie for me because I assumed they were in modern times and just isolated from the beginning.

I liked Armageddon and Battle: LA for what they are.    

I really disliked The Village - besides BDH :wub:

 

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

This is a little surprising as each are great at what they do/what they are. I do know Pulp Fiction is fairly polarizing but I thought the rest were (for the most part) universally liked.

Surprisingly, of them I would probably watch The Matrix first.  IMO Suspects doesn't hold up too well upon rewatches.  Lebowski I still struggle with a bit, and Pulp I seem to FF through the scenes with Fabienne in them.  

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11 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Musicals 

@timschochet @Mrs. Rannous and her husband also ranked the movies. I added up the points from all our judging to get an overall list. It seems we all have seen each movie on the list so these rankings I think leaned more personal preference than status- but I would not say status was totally irrelevant. Also, at least 1 judge was a bit picky about what wasn't musical enough and what was too musical. We had a couple of ties. Tiebreaker was the RT critics + audience. 

Enjoy this little Spotify playlist with songs from our musicals as you read the rankings and formulate your vitriolic replies. 

1 pt  Guys and Dolls:  Nobody had it higher than 5 points. Nathan Detroit is great but Brando ruins the movie. 

2 pts Moulin Rouge: Two of us had it as the worst of the list, another gave it 11 points. One judge even said it was the only movie selected that they actively hate. 

3 pts The Umbrellas of Cherbourg:  It was dinged for having too much music in it. 

4 pts The Lion King: Voters did not feel too much love tonight, high score of 7. We all preferred the other Disney movie chosen. 

5pts Once: High score of 9 and low score of 3. Knock was a lack of memorable songs hurt it's sing along quality but really nice little movie. 

6 pts Willy Wonka: One voter had it dead last, the other two both gave it 9 points. One of the movies that received the "was it a musical or movie with music in it" tag. 

7 pts All That Jazz: Low score of 2 and high score 11, may have suffered from being the 2nd most popular Bob Fosse movie chosen

8 pts Top Hat: Received scores of 6,6 and 11. It's the best of the Ginger and Fred movies and is by far the oldest film taken for the category. 

9 pts Chicago: An 11 point discrepancy between it's high and low score. More great numbers than they could even fit into the movie raved a judge.

10 pts Beauty and the Beast: One of the most consistently scored movies with 8,8 and 10. The judges all liked a talking clock doing a Maurice Chevalier impression. 

11 pts Grease: Equally consistent with scores of 10,10, and 8. This movie and songs were drilled into my head by all the girls in middle and high school. 

12 pts My Fair Lady: High score of 13 and low score 3.  Who can resist Rex Harrison singing, "Can you turn a ho into a housewife?" 

13 pts Cabaret: Scored 15 points twice but also got a 5. Was perhaps considered too depressing for a musical. 

14 pts The Sound of Music:  The battle for 2nd place was the closest. Tied total judges score and only 2 points separating them on the RT tiebreaker. 

15 pts West Side Story: Well crafted, original and memorable. Also a gangster movie. 

16 pts Singin' in the Rain: Clean sweep. 16 points from every judge. 

thankyou all for your service...  Singin in the Rain was one of those slam dunk movies, wish I had grabbed it early now that I know how this thing works...

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9 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Good job, @Ilov80s and @Mrs. Rannous.    

I get the feeling the judge of the category was hoping for more than a 3pts from that movie.  ;) 

I will just say it scored much higher on one judges list than the others 

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14 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I liked The Village and like Armageddon (for a popcorn flick) but most of those movies deserved the harsh takes - well the Village probably does as well but for whatever reason I liked it. I guess the "twist" didn't really ruin the movie for me because I assumed they were in modern times and just isolated from the beginning.

I love that Movie, but i wonder if it would have scored better in the 70's or CHildrens movie.... tough one to categorize....

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4 minutes ago, mphtrilogy said:

I love that Movie, but i wonder if it would have scored better in the 70's or CHildrens movie.... tough one to categorize....

The Village would have scored terribly in the children's movie category. ;)

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I guess I should be happy that Beauty & The Beast scored where it did.

But I can't really bring myself to see My Fair Lady, Cabaret, and Singin' In the Rain. 

And I think The Sound of Music is almost unwatchable. Grease is okay. 

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12 hours ago, Zow said:

Little weight – my own opinion. By that I mean my life experience and watchability for somebody growing up in the 90s. For example, I actually can’t stress the impact that movies like Billy Madison, Tommy Boy, Ace Ventura, Dumb and Dumber, Office Space, American Pie, Chasing Amy, Boondock Saints, Clerks, and Friday had on me as a kid and young adult but I recognize that I shouldn’t force feed a mid-30s perspective on this. 

Little weight – the drafters’ comments (of which I’ve only seen two).

Tier 3 –Just good drama and suspense:

7.       (10 points) LA Confidential – Originally outside the top ten for me, as I researched and applied the criteria above it rose up the rankings. 90 score on Metacritic, won some Oscars, and was a good movie that stands up all right today.

It is one of the best adapted scripts ever by Brian Helgeland.  Helgeland and director Kurtis Hanson hit back-to-back home runs of their respective careers in this movie.

Not just a modern stylized neo-noir thriller with one of the best gun battles on screen I consider it the best noir movie ever made.  It is different from other noir films in that is uses natural lighting unlike a traditional noir movie.  It has an accent on the modern.  The entire Night Owl episode, the interrogation scene, the good-cop/bad-cop bracing of the DA, the Formosa bar confrontation with Johnny Stompinato and Lana Turner, Bloody Christmas, etc...

Impeccably acted, James Cromwell is fantastic.  Russell Crow and Guy Pierce made their US debuts in this film and Crow became a star from his leading role.  Kim Basinger (drool) earned an Academy Award for her performance, and this may be the best acting of Kevin Spacey's career.  Haven't even mentioned David Stratharain or Danny DeVito or the many others in what is a true ensemble cast bereft of sympathetic characters.  Its almost like a combination of a studio and independent picture.  A character piece with studio backing.  

The soundtrack is perfect with time period hits and minimal scoring.  I love the music of this movie.  

It is the only rough cut that came to producer Aron Milchan  where he was so blown away he said it was perfect as is.

Obviously I think this is deserving of a higher ranking.  

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3 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I guess I should be happy that Beauty & The Beast scored where it did.

But I can't really bring myself to see My Fair Lady, Cabaret, and Singin' In the Rain. 

And I think The Sound of Music is almost unwatchable. Grease is okay. 

You will not like My Fair Lady. No reason to watch it. Singin in the Rain is really funny. It would be a great movie even if there was no singing and dancing. Cabaret is a musical I would actually suggest to people who aren't musical fans since all the singing takes place at a club so there is no "everyone just busts out singing" that some people don't like. Plus it has a pretty dark plot as all the story takes place within the backdrop of the rise of NAZISM in Germany. 

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