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The Great 2020 All Time Movie Draft- The judging is heavily biased against me. It’s a hoax! Fake news.

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7 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Wonka is definitely a musical. For some reason, it's my dad's favorite movie.

I don't particularly care for it. Charlie broke the rules. He really should have received NOTHING. 

I think it was Charlie's act of returning the everlasting gobstopper that won the contest. Charlie still had the heart of a child, which I believe is what Wonka was looking for the whole time.

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2 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

All kidding aside, I disagree with this.

I think the mediums stand on their own. Judging a musical movie based on how well it translated the stage version just seems arbitrary to me. We don't judge how well a musical did based on how well it replicated the movie its based on. Fame the stage production wouldn't be judged upon how well it replicated the movie it's based on. 

The same cousin is presently converting The Little Mermaid to onscreen live action for Disney. We've discussed it several times and agree it's not the same as when he converted Chicago from the stage. He & his sister (Kathleen Marshall) were both choreographers who became movie directors (she was not as successful and returned to the stage) and both specialized in revivals when they were on Broadway. Rob likens his new project to that, mostly for one reason - it's more of a reduction than a creation. The original medium has already created the intellectual space for the audience to enjoy it onscreen - the revivalist hopes to put his personal touch on it but the points have already been made and accepted. The movie versions of West Side Story, Sound of Music, Cabaret, Chicago etc had to create worlds in which the song breaks could exist as logically as they do onstage, a completely new construct and occasionally more challenging than the original concept for the same reason that stage acting & screen acting are completely different disciplines. Both scale and intimacy are magnified onscreen, so bringing a stage musical to screen is closer to an original production than an adaptation from another screen format.

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17 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Wonka is definitely a musical. For some reason, it's my dad's favorite movie.

I don't particularly care for it. Charlie broke the rules. He really should have received NOTHING. 

Not to mention Wonka's gross negligence. 

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6 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

The same cousin is presently converting The Little Mermaid to onscreen live action for Disney. We've discussed it several times and agree it's not the same as when he converted Chicago from the stage. He & his sister (Kathleen Marshall) were both choreographers who became movie directors (she was not as successful and returned to the stage) and both specialized in revivals when they were on Broadway. Rob likens his new project to that, mostly for one reason - it's more of a reduction than a creation. The original medium has already created the intellectual space for the audience to enjoy it onscreen - the revivalist hopes to put his personal touch on it but the points have already been made and accepted. The movie versions of West Side Story, Sound of Music, Cabaret, Chicago etc had to create worlds in which the song breaks could exist as logically as they do onstage, a completely new construct and occasionally more challenging than the original concept for the same reason that stage acting & screen acting are completely different disciplines. Both scale and intimacy are magnified onscreen, so bringing a stage musical to screen is closer to an original production than an adaptation from another screen format.

Never thought about in that context. Musical --> Movie means bigger scope and scale, more intimacy. Seems like Book --> Movie means smaller scope and scale, less intimacy. 

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34 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Wonka is definitely a musical. For some reason, it's my dad's favorite movie.

I don't particularly care for it. Charlie broke the rules. He really should have received NOTHING. 

But even after getting busted for it and thinking he got screwed, he still did the right thing and gave the gobstopper back instead of helping his family that could have used the money.

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11 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Seems like Book --> Movie means smaller scope and scale, less intimacy. 

Commonly, but there are books that are very spare and minimalist that have to be broadened to make a credible film.

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My first exposure to Les Miserables was the 2012 movie. I loved it so much I bought the Bluray once it was released. 
 

@Ilov80s how would it have scored if I had picked it instead of Lion King?

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1 hour ago, Ilov80s said:

You will not like My Fair Lady. No reason to watch it. Singin in the Rain is really funny. It would be a great movie even if there was no singing and dancing. Cabaret is a musical I would actually suggest to people who aren't musical fans since all the singing takes place at a club so there is no "everyone just busts out singing" that some people don't like. Plus it has a pretty dark plot as all the story takes place within the backdrop of the rise of NAZISM in Germany. 

Gilda strikes me a bit similar to Cabaret in that way — but probably falls more under film noir than musical. Plus, it has Rita.

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1 minute ago, EYLive said:

My first exposure to Les Miserables was the 2012 movie. I loved it so much I bought the Bluray once it was released. 
 

@Ilov80s how would it have scored if I had picked it instead of Lion King?

My ex loved it. We saw it on Broadway twice and the touring version at a local theater (Paper Mill Playhouse) - we saw the movie in the theater as well. I think they did a great job bringing it to film. 

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Posted (edited)

ramping a musical number is the "hitting a curveball" of art. it is as counter-intuitive as an absurdist painting or a Gothic cathedral and, Lord, i love it so

i've written an original 23-song musical (8 of the songs are part of a climactic number which is currently beyond my expertise to integrate but everything else is finished) about a modern-day gal who has a dream where her personal & romantic difficulties are played out by the characters in her favorite story, Alice in Wonderland, and have open files of a musical movie sequel to Breakfast @ Tiffany's, a stage musical of Bell, Book and Candle and an original stage musical about what people would do if the end of the world was 3 wks away called Kill the Sun. i also worked with my cousin on adapting Guys & Dolls from the "The Oldest Established Permanent Floating Crap Game in New York" to the World Series of Poker. for a person with flights of weird originality but a short attention span, it's truly a most beautiful challenge. since i'm somewhere between a hasbeen & a neverwas and now an old man with no followthru, having conquered the skill is the one great pleasures i have left, so i take it very seriously. there is no harder way to make a point than in song, but no better way as well. there aint an angle i havent looked at this puzzle and that is the standing upon which i base my opinions

Edited by wikkidpissah
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Just now, EYLive said:

My first exposure to Les Miserables was the 2012 movie. I loved it so much I bought the Bluray once it was released. 
 

@Ilov80s how would it have scored if I had picked it instead of Lion King?

Not sure, I haven't seen it. Hard to say as well since I was only 1 of 4 judges. 

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23 minutes ago, Don Quixote said:

Gilda strikes me a bit similar to Cabaret in that way — but probably falls more under film noir than musical. Plus, it has Rita.

I think there were only 2 or 3 musical bits in Gilda though, right? Lots of older movies would sneak in one song performance which is kind of a dated thing now. 

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1 hour ago, Zow said:

Fair enough. I thought I treated it pretty well. As I indicated, I may have let my personal bias for Big Lebowski inflate its ranking too much, but I don't see any metric or way that I would have slid LA Confidential into the top 5. 

See, Rounders got the shaft.  Just like a young man coming in for a quickie...….I feel so unsatisfied......hahahahhahaa

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31 minutes ago, EYLive said:

My first exposure to Les Miserables was the 2012 movie. I loved it so much I bought the Bluray once it was released. 
 

@Ilov80s how would it have scored if I had picked it instead of Lion King?

Ah - this reminds me.....as I was perusing IMDB it had Hamilton listed once it was on Disney+.  I had a fleeting thought of picking it for musical but Hags told me to not be a dope, that it isn't a musical but just a recording of show.

I assume the musical judges would have agreed with him??

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2 minutes ago, Ocram said:

Ah - this reminds me.....as I was perusing IMDB it had Hamilton listed once it was on Disney+.  I had a fleeting thought of picking it for musical but Hags told me to not be a dope, that it isn't a musical but just a recording of show.

I assume the musical judges would have agreed with him??

I would have because it was not at movie theaters and was ruled ineligible for the Oscars this year. 

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Cabaret is such a great flerking movie. Set against the backdrop of Weimar, it's really a story of how decadence and rot leads to political absolutism. Quite conservative in its message, though I'm not talking political conservatism as we know it, but absolute conservatism. 

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I will fully admit to not seeing many and not liking many of the few musicals I've seen.  To me they felt like a waste of time as plot point that could have achieved in a couple lines gets stretched into a 5min long song and dance number.   

I think I am slowly warming up to them more and more though.  

The other I had considered late in the game after taking Once was the Burton version of Sweeney Todd.  

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

I will fully admit to not seeing many and not liking many of the few musicals I've seen.  To me they felt like a waste of time as plot point that could have achieved in a couple lines gets stretched into a 5min long song and dance number.   

I think I am slowly warming up to them more and more though.  

The other I had considered late in the game after taking Once was the Burton version of Sweeney Todd.  

the greatest musical work (Beatles, Johns Williams & Coltrane and LCD Soundsystem included) of my lifetime and a tremendous staging of a fabulous musical with a stone bummer of an ending. One of my top 5 21st C movies

Edited by wikkidpissah
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12 minutes ago, Ocram said:

Ah - this reminds me.....as I was perusing IMDB it had Hamilton listed once it was on Disney+.  I had a fleeting thought of picking it for musical but Hags told me to not be a dope, that it isn't a musical but just a recording of show.

I assume the musical judges would have agreed with him??

i would have grouped it w the cartoons at the bottom

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5 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

LCD Soundsystem included

Wut? :)

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11 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Cabaret is such a great flerking movie. Set against the backdrop of Weimar, it's really a story of how decadence and rot leads to political absolutism. Quite conservative in its message, though I'm not talking political conservatism as we know it, but absolute conservatism. 

Yeah, that got my 2nd place vote. On top of everything you have said, its also quite socially liberal and is anything but dated today. It says a lot about how societies slip away to dark places, the arrogance of the ruling classes to control society and how really horrid things happen amidst the cover of our everyday smiling, dancing lives and our tendency to ignore them until it's too late. Genius movie. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Yeah, that got my 2nd place vote. On top of everything you have said, its also quite socially liberal and is anything but dated today. It says a lot about how societies slip away to dark places, the arrogance of the ruling classes to control society and how really horrid things happen amidst the cover of our everyday smiling, dancing lives and our tendency to ignore them until it's too late. Genius movie. 

I love how two people can watch the same thing and come away with a different message. I always thought the personal license/socially liberal aspect of it was part of the rot that led to the absolutist establishment of some kind of morality. I always thought that

that Minelli's abortion and the threesome were indications of that rot

Edited by rockaction
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1 minute ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Hmmm...sounds like I might actually like Cabaret.

Cabaret is a very ominous piece of art that plays well today, especially the postmodern aspect of the art and the tragic magic of the cabaret in question. 

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Just now, rockaction said:

I love how two people can watch the same thing and come away with a different message. I always thought the personal license/socially liberal aspect of it was part of the rot that led to the absolutist establishment of some kind of morality. I always thought that

  Reveal hidden contents

that Minelli's abortion and the threesome were indications of that rot

 

I don't think it paints a very flattering portrait of Liza's character but I never took that as a reflection of Germany. She's just a visitor, she is not German herself. I saw the reflection of Germany more in the wealthier character who said believed the NAZIs were distasteful but useful for fighting off the left and could be discarded at any time. I also didn't think the movie really promoted socially liberated characters. I just meant the slice of life that it showed is very LGTBQ and feels rather contemporary IMO. 

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3 hours ago, Andy Dufresne said:

As long as we're on the subject:
Ebert's 50 Harshest reviews

 

That list somehow missed my personal favorite Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo.

 

Quote

 

Schneider retaliated by attacking Goldstein in full-page ads in Daily Variety and the Hollywood Reporter. In an open letter to Goldstein, Schneider wrote: "Well, Mr. Goldstein, I decided to do some research to find out what awards you have won. I went online and found that you have won nothing. Absolutely nothing. No journalistic awards of any kind ... Maybe you didn't win a Pulitzer Prize because they haven't invented a category for Best Third-Rate, Unfunny Pompous Reporter Who's Never Been Acknowledged by His Peers."

Reading this, I was about to observe that Schneider can dish it out but he can't take it. Then I found he's not so good at dishing it out, either. I went online and found that Patrick Goldstein has won a National Headliner Award, a Los Angeles Press Club Award, a RockCritics.com award, and the Publicists' Guild award for lifetime achievement.

Schneider was nominated for a 2000 Razzie Award for Worst Supporting Actor, but lost to Jar-Jar Binks.

But Schneider is correct, and Patrick Goldstein has not yet won a Pulitzer Prize. Therefore, Goldstein is not qualified to complain that Columbia financed "Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo" while passing on the opportunity to participate in "Million Dollar Baby," "Ray," "The Aviator," "Sideways" and "Finding Neverland." As chance would have it, I have won the Pulitzer Prize, and so I am qualified. Speaking in my official capacity as a Pulitzer Prize winner, Mr. Schneider, your movie sucks.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Cabaret is a very ominous piece of art that plays well today, especially the postmodern aspect of the art and the tragic magic of the cabaret in question. 

Great word for it. The ending is dark af. 

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Just now, Ilov80s said:

Great word for it. The ending is dark af. 

The ending, while visually striking like the rest of the movie, is dark af, indeed.

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1 minute ago, Tom Hagen said:

But Schneider is correct, and Patrick Goldstein has not yet won a Pulitzer Prize. Therefore, Goldstein is not qualified to complain that Columbia financed "Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo" while passing on the opportunity to participate in "Million Dollar Baby," "Ray," "The Aviator," "Sideways" and "Finding Neverland." As chance would have it, I have won the Pulitzer Prize, and so I am qualified. Speaking in my official capacity as a Pulitzer Prize winner, Mr. Schneider, your movie sucks.

####### classic. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Cabaret is such a great flerking movie. Set against the backdrop of Weimar, it's really a story of how decadence and rot leads to political absolutism. Quite conservative in its message, though I'm not talking political conservatism as we know it, but absolute conservatism. 

Only the failure to keep the musical pace in the 2nd half keeps Cabaret from being the unequivocal greatest movie musical of all time. It's great enough for me to wish it perfect and is the model for my paltry work, because it ridicules, indicts and underlines the human experience in ways neither straight drama nor comedy can.

Edited by wikkidpissah
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41 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:
1 hour ago, Don Quixote said:

Gilda strikes me a bit similar to Cabaret in that way — but probably falls more under film noir than musical. Plus, it has Rita.

I think there were only 2 or 3 musical bits in Gilda though, right? Lots of older movies would sneak in one song performance which is kind of a dated thing now. 

Yeah, I think that is right. I thought it had more, but maybe Rita's performances in Gilda just made them stand out a bit more than that.  So, definitely more film noir than musical.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

 it ridicules, indicts and elevates the human experience in ways neither straight drama nor comedy can.

Perhaps this is where the serious watchers like you diverge from the casual observer like myself, but I'm willing to go along with this assertion because I remember being particularly moved by Cabaret in a way a thousand political essays about moral fiber and democracy couldn't quite achieve. 

Edited by rockaction
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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Perhaps this is where the serious watchers like you diverge from the casual observer like myself, but I'm willing to go along with this assertion because I remember being particularly moved by Cabaret in a way a thousand political essays about moral fiber and democracy couldn't quite achieve. 

I'm not supposed to, copy rights & all, but i've posted this lyric from my Alice musical in TPF before and i'll try it here to make a point. It's essentially Nietzsche's old saw about untested virtue, but it's really hard to dance to Nietzsche.  Here, it's the music to the Caucus Race, performed by the people who live under the NYC's subway. imagine barbershop quartet until the bolded words, then sleazy vaudeville for the remainder:

OLD-FASHIONED VALUES


O, whatever happened to
Those old golden days,
The gentler ways of the past?
Kids behaved and flags were waved
Life, simple and sure
And all good things were built to last.
Who doesn't wish for a time when every line had to rhyme?!


What about old-fashioned values
Makes me just want to......THROW UP!

Women kept mum,
Darkies under the thumb.
Lock up the bums
With the deaf and the dumb.
Why would we want to go back to
A world where no one had a voice
When a handful of fools
Made up all of the rules
And nobody else got a choice

What about old-fashioned values
Drives me straight out of my mind?
Closet the gays
In those Gay Nineties ways.
Win on a field
Where nobody else plays.
The good old days were awfully easy
With so many people left out
Still waiting to see
A world where all can be free.
Real liberty what we're about.

 

...and who doesnt want to leave a theater humming along to Nietzsche?!

 

Edited by wikkidpissah
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17 hours ago, Zow said:

11.   (6 points) Raise the Red Lantern – Really glad I got to see this movie as I didn’t even know it existed before I opted to judge this category. Loved the use of colors and that they never showed the Master’s face. The descent into madness is believable and well-acted. Thanks to whoever drafted this.

You're welcome.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

...and who doesnt want to leave a theater humming along to Nietzsche?!

Earnest critique: I would imagine Nietzsche cared less about political and social equality of opportunity than the song, instead preferring the master's whip and creative impulse as life energy force; but hey, everyone's mileage may vary in interpretation. There is a degree of the master's whip of yore having stultified not just the equality, but the freedom of others to express their creative energies, things that Nietzsche valued. But he also valued power qua power and thought equality was a simpering Christian sentiment made for slaves. 

Edited by rockaction

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Earnest critique: I would imagine Nietzsche cared less about political and social equality of opportunity than the song, instead preferring the master's whip and creative impulse as life energy force; but hey, everyone's mileage may vary in interpretation.

well it does expand the point by saying that liberty is the true test of virtue, tolerance a legitimate gauge of decency, but i getcha

 

ETA: and i guess my point is that i trotted that out before in TPF and successfully made a point i couldnt in florid nor turgid prose

Edited by wikkidpissah

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

well it does expand the point by saying that liberty is the true test of virtue, tolerance a legitimate gauge of decency, but i getcha

Yeah, I can see that. Anything that emphasizes will and liberty is bound to fall under the rubric of that which is Nietzschean. It was more an earnest quibble. And it's a damn thing to put to music, that Nietzsche. Strauss tried with tone poems, but Strauss also wound up conducting for Nazis, so we see where will and power can lead one when praised as the ultimate virtue.

But I'm just spitballing to spitball about things I'm more at home with. Love the barbershop quartet idea. I know you're not much on modernity, but Weezer had a ton of barbershop harmonies in their Blue Album outtakes, and did it as earnestly as possible for the nineties. That was when Rivers Cuomo genuinely believed in sincerity rather than irony. So my point being that you won't surprise hip audiences with an old-timey quartet, but rather, it's a vernacular they will be comfortable in. Their betters were doing it in pop culture, if on the fringes of it. I can't speak to the quality of it, but here are some links:

My Aveline

Susanne (with guitar, but the harmonies are there)

Weezer on Fallon

Edited by rockaction

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4 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

I don't mind the ranking - wasn't counting on a great score - but no offense towards that judge but the bolded makes no sense AT ALL.

It's listed as a musical everywhere and there's 13 songs in a 100 minute movie. 

Hearing the Oompa Loompa song over and over doesn't really help it out.  I love Gene Wlder, but that movie is just awful.

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Have we heard from @Todem ? No rush to get all those categories judged, but did he acknowledge he is still in? 

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4 hours ago, jwb said:

I like this movie (due to the bolded), but can't disagree with its place on this list. After I picked it late, I realized I made a big mistake, leaving Fiddler on the Roof out there. Heck, even 1776 (which I like but nobody else seems to) might have done better. 

Nice job in a super-strong category.

One of my and Mr R's favorite musicals.  We watch it every year or two.  John Adams is my favorite president, even if he is obnoxious and disliked.  You missed the boat for me.

Fiddler would have done better, too.  

Brando is really bad in Guys and Dolls.  He can't sing, and he isn't menacing.  All the other actors outshine him, although he can really wear a hat well.

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15 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Yeah, I can see that. Anything that emphasizes will and liberty is bound to fall under the rubric of that which is Nietzschean. It was more an earnest quibble. And it's a damn thing to put to music, that Nietzsche. Strauss tried with tone poems, but Strauss also wound up conducting for Nazis, so we see where will and power can lead one when praised as the ultimate virtue.

But I'm just spitballing to spitball about things I'm more at home with. Love the barbershop quartet idea. I know you're not much on modernity, but Weezer had a ton of barbershop harmonies in their Blue Album outtakes, and did it as earnestly as possible for the nineties. That was when Rivers Cuomo genuinely believed in sincerity rather than irony. So my point being that you won't surprise hip audiences with an old-timey quartet, but rather, it's a vernacular they will be comfortable in. Their betters were doing it in pop culture, if on the fringes of it. I can't speak to the quality of it, but here are some links:

My Aveline

Susanne (with guitar, but the harmonies are there)

Weezer on Fallon

i'm just gonna take the shot on modernity or the hijack will never end. thx for the links - first harmonies i've ever heard from a rock band...

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4 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

I am glad American in Paris was passed over though I am surprised. It's got Gene Kelly and it won Best Picture. I think it's pretty mediocre until the final 15 minute dance scene at the end.

Oh, thank you.  I thought I was the only one who felt that way.  It's just so dull.

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Just now, wikkidpissah said:

i'm just gonna take the shot on modernity or the hijack will never end. thx for the links - first harmonies i've ever heard from a rock band...

Oh, bud. It wasn't a shot. Sorry if it came off that way. It was an acknowledgement of taste, perhaps inaptly expressed or even wrong.

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

Oh, bud. It wasn't a shot. Sorry if it came off that way. It was an acknowledgement of taste, perhaps inaptly expressed or even wrong.

i have never used the sarcasm emoji. plz dont make me start -

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Just now, wikkidpissah said:

i have never used the sarcasm emoji. plz dont make me start -

Heh. Sure thing. I did hear the sarc within the "first harmonies I've ever heard from a rock band" though. Don't worry.

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3 hours ago, Ocram said:

I would think that the delineation (for me at least) would be who is singing the song.  Toy Story for example, is not a musical because it just has original music but it's not sung by the characters.  I know that several Lion King songs are sung by the characters but I was thinking "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" is just played during the movie and not sung by a character.

I was trying to express this when I did my rankings.  "The CIrcle of Life" is just sung over the scene.  But in The Jungle Book, the characters sing all the songs, and they are all very relevant to the characters.  It's definitely a musical.  So is Beauty and the Beast.

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9 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Have we heard from @Todem ? No rush to get all those categories judged, but did he acknowledge he is still in? 

Since I haven't seen too many movies in his categories I can't even help group judge, but I can take the male movie stars if needed.

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16 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

Have we heard from @Todem ? No rush to get all those categories judged, but did he acknowledge he is still in? 

Yes, I talked to him - he's still in and working on it.  He has a lot of movies to cover so taking a little time. 

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Also, Kumerica has said he hopes to start posting some of his starting later this week (I think around Thursday).

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3 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

I am sure many of our musicals have dubbed voices. West Side Story, Umbrellas, Sound of Music for sure. 

Who do you think was dubbed in The Sound of Music?

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