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timschochet

The Great 2020 All Time Movie Draft- The judging is heavily biased against me. It’s a hoax! Fake news.

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I'm happy with my 13 points for Rosemary's Baby. I've watched it twice and if it weren't so dang long I'd watch it more often.

My personal modern favorite, The Grudge, I think would have scored in the lower half. I've seen Ju-On as well and I like the American version better despite being a scene-for-scene copy. The Wailing is also at the top of my horror list and highly recommended since it's available on Netflix.

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I've never seen The Exorcist but will catch it this week on HBO and I need to find a link for The Orphanage.

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2 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

It's not though.  I will take the AD route on this and say I don't find much before Night of the Living Dead all that compelling.  Maybe there is something I am not thinking of though.  I think Get Out would have been my 1 pointer if I judged it, but I've yammered about that movie enough too.  

Did you just mean it's not missing old horror because you think it's not good or that what was drafted wasn't a good representation of the best of horror?

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I have a feeling I'm going to get a reeaally long time out. This draft has been fun. I'll follow along as best as I can.

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40 minutes ago, EYLive said:

I have a feeling I'm going to get a reeaally long time out. This draft has been fun. I'll follow along as best as I can.

That's cuz you're a dumdum that got trolled.

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29 minutes ago, Chris B. said:
1 hour ago, EYLive said:

I have a feeling I'm going to get a reeaally long time out. This draft has been fun. I'll follow along as best as I can.

That's cuz you're a dumdum that got trolled.

Been a while, Chris B. Welcome back :D 

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4 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

@Todem - you have enough else to judge, but I was wondering how a couple others on my list would have fared with you:  Audition and American Werewolf in London.  I knew from the other thread you just watched Audition for the first time a little bit ago, and that was a reason I didn't go that route.  

American Werewolf In London ranks very high for me. I love that movie. The comedy is simply delighful in a tragic love story. I really loved the makeup effects and they still hold up today for me today. Those were great times with animatronic stuff. Long before CGI you had to be really creative. It is a lost art.  And Audition was simply one of the most disturbing films I have ever seen. Great suggestion on that one. 

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The horror genre is my favorite and this was a very difficult group of films to judge. In terms of Nightmare On Elm Street....it is a bit dated. But the sheer horror I felt the first time I watched that film as a 14 year old at a midnight movie......priceless. The original is a creepy movie. A great concept and it spawned a few excellent sequels (Dream Warriors and Wes Cravens New Nightmare are stand out sequels and I will give Dream Master a shout out. The rest were the suck).

Friday the 13th would have ranked in the middle somewhere. It was a very polarizing film in 1980. And it spawned so many knock off’s and a ton of awful sequels (I do like them up to part 4 The Final Chapter. After that.....just dreck....but I still watch them when they are on LOL). 

There were some modern horror movies that were not taken that would have ranked very high for me.

Insidious

The Conjuring

Dead Silence 

All three of course from probably IMO the best modern horror director in James Wan 

Some movies I was grappling over for higher marks were:

The Thing (1982) I simply love this movie and John Carpenter is my favorite horror director. 

Scream could have ranked higher....that was a tough one to keep that low but when you have all those other incredible horror films ahead of it.....tough field man. 

Carrie is a good flick. I like it a lot. Thing is I liked every film you all drafted. So it was a really tough category to judge.

Now we are doing the sports catagory and this one is a really hard. Some fantastic movies and some of my all time fav’s on this list. It will be hard. For the record...baseball is my favorite sport and typically my favorite kind of sports movies. So the ranking these baseball movies is going to be extremely hard. A lot of classics here. And non baseball movies drafted are also strong.

I will have that by tomorrow.

Once I have all the categories done I can start doing capsules for many of the picks both gushing ones and critical ones on lower point scores.

Like Blair Witch.....that spawned the found film genre.....but that movie simply is not that good anymore at all. And if you did not buy into the pre film hype (which we did and it worked like magic to get us freaked out) the film is a dud.  

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5 hours ago, higgins said:

Per guidance, I'm posting Todem's horror rankings -- he'll add capsules later.

16 - Halloween - Joffer

15 - The Shining - Higgins

14 - The Exorcist - Tuff

13 - Rosemarys Baby - Eylive

12 - The Thing (1982) - gally 

11 - Texas Chainsaw Massacre - Dr Octopus

10 - Psycho - Doug B

9 - Nightmare On Elm Street - Winz

8 - Night Of The Living Dead - Ilov80’s

7 - The Orphanage - Andy D

6 - Scream - Karma

5 - Get Out - Mrs Ramos

4 - Dawn Of The Dead (1978) - JWB

3 - Carrie - Mphtophy

2 - Let The Right One In - Triplemania

1 - Blair Witch Project - Tim

A very good list. I would only switch Dawn Of The Dead with Rosemary's Baby.

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I didn't like the Insidious franchise; too convoluted. Now Sinister - that was awesome, haven't seen the second one yet. Paranormal 1-3 worked very well if you pay attention to the story and stay patient through the slow parts.

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16 minutes ago, Mr. Mojo said:

A very good list. I would only switch Dawn Of The Dead with Rosemary's Baby.

heh, me too!

 

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Don’t like much horror but I did like The Ring

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Mr. Mojo said:

A very good list. I would only switch Dawn Of The Dead with Rosemary's Baby.

I think Rosemary’s Baby pretty overrated too. But maybe because of my very rational Polanski hatred.

Edited by Don Quixote
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I maybe should have gone with the big baseball movie that was left undrafted

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43 minutes ago, Ilov80s said:

I maybe should have gone with the big baseball movie that was left undrafted

Major League? 

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4 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Did you just mean it's not missing old horror because you think it's not good or that what was drafted wasn't a good representation of the best of horror?

Mostly the first part.  Good in a time capsule way, but cant think of many I would go out of my way to watch or suggest.  

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25 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Major League? 

Yeah, it was between that and The Hustler for me

22 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Mostly the first part.  Good in a time capsule way, but cant think of many I would go out of my way to watch or suggest.  

Ahhh I really love the atmosphere of the old horror movies though I did grow up watching them. They usually aren't scary but more fun, atmospheric and often cheesy. Though I find the 80s slashes to be that way as well.

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1 hour ago, Ilov80s said:

Yeah, it was between that and The Hustler for me

Now that's dry wit. :lmao:

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12 hours ago, Chris B. said:

That's cuz you're a dumdum that got trolled.

C'mon people.  Are they handing out cocaine over there?  Just stay out.  Pretend it's summer camp and the first one to leave the room meets the serial killer.

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Posted (edited)

Watched Fargo again last night (after three days of being in the Fargo/Moorhead area)...different things crack me up each time. Last night it was honing in on the "big" words that the characters randomly use:


"You know what a disparity is?"

"I'm a police officer from up Brainerd investigating some malfeasance..."

Watched Kill Bill Vol:1 last week and that's still awesome too.

Edited by Andy Dufresne
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Watched Fargo again last night (after three days of being in the Fargo/Moorhead area)...different things crack me up each time. Last night it was honing in on the "big" words that the characters randomly use:


"You know what a disparity is?"

"I'm a police officer from up Brainerd investigating some malfeasance..."

Watched Kill Bill Vol:1 last week and that's still awesome too.

Who the F are you?!

No Jean, no money!

(:lmao: My favorite scene.)

Edited by Mr. Mojo
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29 minutes ago, Mr. Mojo said:

Who the F are you?!

No Jean, no money!

(:lmao: My favorite scene.)

I've parked on that ramp several times. 

There's a few (maybe) unintentional jokes if you know the geography of the area.

Like why did they go from Fargo to Brainerd and then to Minneapolis?  Not exactly a direct route.

And then when they get to Minneapolis, for some reason they're entering from the SOUTH side of town. I picture these two idiots arguing about directions, ready to kill each other, for about a five hour trip involving many wrong turns. 

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Posted (edited)

SUPPORTING ACTOR

Menace. The most important aspect of life that no one talks about and the ingredient at the core of all electronic entertainment.

Every organism's first job is survival and the first tactic of survival is to attempt dominance. From termite mound to lion pride, from caveman's club to infant's hi-chair tray, the primal instinct of any being is to pound one's Cheerios into submission. In order that we dont just automatically extinct ourselves with our impulses, civilization frustrates dominance until we are each tiny pods of an unspoken rage, more precarious to access with each passing generation. Menace is our surrogate for dominance, something storytellers have known for a long time and media has now monetized. All men are captives of the brand of menace which most impresses them and to which they feel the closest access (women can be impressed by the ability to menace, but have no need for it in their media because they can menace a man any time they feel the need for speed) and the major reason Western Civilization becomes more suckerized each season.

If you want to think about all that before i show how the best supporting actors of cinema are part & parcel of my theory of menace as the center of storytelling & entertainment, g'ahead. i'll wait..........................................................................................................

16. Casey Affleck (1 point) - The younger Affleck gave a wonderful performance in Manchester by the Sea. It made me want to research his supporting roles, but i realized it was easier to say that Casey Affleck is NOT Eli Wallach, EGMarshall, Lee J Cobb, Jason Robards, Rod Steiger, Martin Balsam (or whoever else of the cast of 12 Angry Men i left out), James Earl Jones, George Sanders, John Gielgud, Jeffrey Wright, Sydney Greenstreet, Alec Guiness, Harvey Keitel, Michael Pena or even Wilford frikkin Brimley

15. Claude Rains (2 pts) - Love Claude Rains, but i cant put him over the bar i just set either.

14. Ed Harris (3 pts) - Just an all-round blend-in MVP, as well as a lead performance in Pollack that was even better than Affleck in Manchester. Same deal, though.

13. Alan Rickman (4 pts) - ibid

Before we move to the actual contenders for best (and i would not be upset by any of the top dozen being #1, except for my menace angle), my favorite supporting performance of all time (3:30 of this to 5:00 of this), by vaudevillian Ed Wynn.

12. Edward G Robinson (5 pts)- my old business partner grew up next to Eddy G and, from his recollections, i know for a FACT that the great actor, raconteur & collector would abhor being thought of as anything but a star. So i put him at the bottom of the greats as his protest against the classification.

But he is also my way to introduce menace as the abiding quality in movie performance. The ugly little man became a star on menace alone - whether a Caesar, a weasel or haunted citizen, he projected workaday villainy & avarice & relentlessness in a way that activated everyone's sense of the menace in their secret hearts and turned movies into a vicarious chase to the top instead of a reflection of life. But he was a star, so last of these.

11. Tommy Lee Jones (6 pts) - Put Ed Harris in a bowl, add black hair dye, battery acid and menace. Stir.

10. Walter Brennan (7 pts) - the other side of the coin: the menaced. I don't even remember if Brennan actually had a limp or not. Don't matter. No one reflected a person beaten up by the venalities of existence like Walter. He even won sometimes, on determination alone - a very American thing at one time. But he was Job personified, to those who did & didnt believe in God.

9. Michael Caine (8 pts) - the Cockney Gene Hackman. Believable as anybody - menace, menaced, menacer of menaces and, therefore, a lead or supporting player. Began as a leading menace to respectable mores, Alfie,  then played one of the great menacers of all time - The Man Who Would Be King's Peachy Carnehan, Iago to a man who left civilization to become not only a king but a god, and suffered the ultimate pain & woe to bring proof of their quest home when they were done. Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, Cider House Rules, a seething turn in The Quiet American and Alfred to boot.

8. Peter Lorre (9 pts) - the Ur creep, but i have personal reasons to make him tops of the classic-era supporting players. me Ma (RIP) was orphaned in her teens and taken in by a Sicilian family. Sundays were gigantic meals, lawn bowling and all the children entertaining the adults. while the older kids had to play clarinet or do recitations, i went vaudeville and learned two imitations (Louis Armstrong and an imitation of an imitation of Peter Lorre, from this Spike Jones record) and did the same routine every week and the grownups would howl every time  and i didnt have to practice anything. thx M.

7. Morgan Freeman (10 pts) - a very powerful force in modern moviemaking because any world becomes palpable when Mr. Freeman  addresses it. I'm not sure what to do with that because it's so unprecedented. Can't put him higher because his performances are more useful than great.

6. Joe Pesci (11 pts) - the world caught up to Peter Lorre, making it possible for a creep to be a player and that player is Joe Pesci. I would love to see someone modernize a Shakespeare piece and have Pesci play one of the Bard's enduring creeps. But he's a one-note player so, as ultimately menacing as that one note is and as memorable as some of his roles are, i can place him no higher. 

5. John Cazale (12 pts) - the unicorn. Cazale's movies AVERAGED 10 Oscar nominations; he taught Meryl Streep why we act and he did the most courageous thing any actor who made it to Hollywood ever did - played weak. There is a Sal, a Fredo in every man and each of us loathe being reminded of that at every turn. But some stories have no perspective unless someone is willing to play that and John Cazale used star talent in his unfortunately short career to give good pictures greatness by delivering that perspective. It's like going to a museum and finding the same human figure in The Last Supper, The Garden of Earthly Delights,  the Night Watch and The Potato Eaters

4. Phillip Seymour Hoffman (13 pts) - I have no problem stipulating that PSH is the best actor of any on this list. But, as i said in my preface to my supporting actress list, the roles are as much a factor as the acting and my favorite of his performances (Capote, Synecdoche) were very much leads. Even though, on the menacing front, he played the best Bond-type villain ever in MI3, the landmark supporting role isnt there to rank him any higher.

3. Gene Hackman (14 pts) - the American man. His temper, temperament, manfulness, menace, confidence & dread are the makings of any guy who tried. Size of the role don't matter for he or Duvall (who would have won this) - if he aint supporting the star, he's supporting the audience in their understanding of the story at hand. I had him down with Caine originally and he kept rising up. By the time he got this high, i had the top two set in my head so this is his ceiling.

2. Christopher Walken (15 pts) - now this is menace. Nothing menaces us more, even women, than our mental health. What flights of fear & fancy make us take personally what we do? How does hating at ourselves til we can love ourselves again work? Why do we continue when we have very little idea what happens next and what we'll do about it? ALL of that bounces across the minds of Christopher Walken's characters and one can see the play of every bit of it. He's locked in & loose as a goose at the same time and, lord help me, i love it so. Right after i came to the menace idea for judging this (i once actually considered rating them on a scale of imitatibility) i watched the cable-ubiquitous Catch Me If You Can. As Frank Abegnale Sr, Walken used a career of menacing to show a man ultimately menaced and i cried. Add that to Nick in Deer Hunter (the greatest supporting performance i know of) and i dont know how i didnt make him #1. But i didn't....

1. Samuel L.Jackson (16 pts) - NOW, #####es! Right muddafrikkin' NOW!! Nobody has ever brought some NOW to the screen like SLJ. And, in case you havent noticed, making NOW happen is the most vital part of making movies. In fact, because of that, he may be the most important American black man of the last fifty years, cuz he leapt right past valuable or important and went to absolutely necessary. Sam Jackson pisses on your equality and aint all that impressed with his supremacy. He goin' str8 to the Wrath of God visited upon this this earth. Sure, a black man has been president, but even Obama didn't have the gravitas to righteously announce ""I've had it with these mother####ing snakes on this mother####ing plane!" So he wins

Edited by wikkidpissah
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didn’t realize how good that list was.  nice job wikkid.  I knew right after I took Pesci he was a little too one-trick.

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Just now, joffer said:

didn’t realize how good that list was.  nice job wikkid.  I knew right after I took Pesci he was a little too one-trick.

Really enjoyed reading those write-ups, too.  Excellent wikkid-ing.

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Good job, wikkid.  

Honestly, I was expecting fewer points after seeing all the selections made after PSH.  

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25 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

12. Edward G Robinson (5 pts)- my old business partner grew up next to Eddy G and, from his recollections, i know for a FACT that the great actor, raconteur & collector would abhor being thought of as anything but a star. So i put him at the bottom of the greats as his protest against the classification.

But he is also my way to introduce menace as the abiding quality in movie performance. The ugly little man became a star on menace alone - whether a Caesar, a weasel or haunted citizen, he projected workaday villainy & avarice & relentlessness in a way that activated everyone's sense of the menace in their secret hearts and turned movies into a vicarious chase to the top instead of a reflection of life. But he was a star, so last of these.

He was a star because he took supporting roles and made them more. I think you did not apply this criteria evenly. 

But it's fine. I expected such a traveshamockery. 

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Nice job Wikkid.

i knew affleck was a 1pointer when I took him but he was so damn good in assassination  of Jesse James. 

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I thought for sure whoever had drafted Claude Rains had gotten a steal. I guess that’s why I’m just the peanut gallery and not drafting.

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Just now, Don Quixote said:

I thought for sure whoever had drafted Claude Rains had gotten a steal. I guess that’s why I’m just the peanut gallery and not drafting.

Forget it, Don. It's Wikkidtown. 

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Posted (edited)

We knew his judging was going to be weird and we were right.
Menace? The heck.

Edited by Chris B.

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1 hour ago, wikkidpissah said:

SUPPORTING ACTOR

Menace. The most important aspect of life that no one talks about and the ingredient at the core of all electronic entertainment.

Every organism's first job is survival and the first tactic of survival is to attempt dominance. From termite mound to lion pride, from caveman's club to infant's hi-chair tray, the primal instinct of any being is to pound one's Cheerios into submission. In order that we dont just automatically extinct ourselves with our impulses, civilization frustrates dominance until we are each tiny pods of an unspoken rage, more precarious to access with each passing generation. Menace is our surrogate for dominance, something storytellers have known for a long time and media has now monetized. All men are captives of the brand of menace which most impresses them and to which they feel the closest access (women can be impressed by the ability to menace, but have no need for it in their media because they can menace a man any time they feel the need for speed) and the major reason Western Civilization becomes more suckerized each season.

If you want to think about all that before i show how the best supporting actors of cinema are part & parcel of my theory of menace as the center of storytelling & entertainment, g'ahead. i'll wait..........................................................................................................

ok, I read this and knew I had a decent shot at a score.

 

Quote

1. Samuel L.Jackson (16 pts) - NOW, #####es! Right muddafrikkin' NOW!! Nobody has ever brought some NOW to the screen like SLJ. And, in case you havent noticed, making NOW happen is the most vital part of making movies. In fact, because of that, he may be the most important American black man of the last fifty years cuz he leapt right past valuable or important and went to absolutely necessary. Sam Jackson pisses on your equality and aint all that impressed with his supremacy. He goin' str8 to the Wrath of God visited upon this this earth. Sure, a black man has been president, but even Obama didn't have the gravitas to righteously announce ""I've had it with these mother####ing snakes on this mother####ing plane!" So he wins

:excited:

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1 hour ago, KarmaPolice said:

Good job, wikkid.  

Honestly, I was expecting fewer points after seeing all the selections made after PSH.  

I picked SLJ in the eighth round, so fairly early.

I took him because in my mind, a supporting actor makes the movie better by his presence. Even if it's a cameo or a small role, he just makes it better. And SLJ really fit that criteria for me. 

But then, like you said, I saw the names picked after him. Freeman, Hackman, Walken, Rickman... I thought taking him that early might have been a mistake. A nice surprise.

Awesome writeups for everyone, wikkid. 

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1 hour ago, Chris B. said:

We knew his judging was going to be weird and we were right.
Menace? The heck.

care to show proof of being part of any "we" around here before taking those kinda shots?

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1 hour ago, krista4 said:

Really enjoyed reading those write-ups, too.  Excellent wikkid-ing.

*singing to the tune of the Rodgers & Hammerstein hit*

i enjoy being a verb! *lalala*

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6 minutes ago, jwb said:

I picked SLJ in the eighth round, so fairly early.

I took him because in my mind, a supporting actor makes the movie better by his presence. Even if it's a cameo or a small role, he just makes it better. And SLJ really fit that criteria for me. 

But then, like you said, I saw the names picked after him. Freeman, Hackman, Walken, Rickman... I thought taking him that early might have been a mistake. A nice surprise.

Awesome writeups for everyone, wikkid. 

SLJ certainly made some bad movies, but can’t remember many that I thought were worse due to him.

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1 hour ago, wikkidpissah said:

5. John Cazale (12 pts) - the unicorn. Cazale's movies AVERAGED 10 Oscar nominations; he taught Meryl Streep why we act and he did the most courageous thing any actor who made it to Hollywood ever did - played weak. 

Such a great point.

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1 hour ago, Don Quixote said:

I thought for sure whoever had drafted Claude Rains had gotten a steal. I guess that’s why I’m just the peanut gallery and not drafting.

I did, too.  He was the real deal in everything he did.  Casablanca puts it over the top for me.  And he was just oily in Robin Hood.  And cynical in Mr Smith.  His range is just incredible.

And also it seems, underrated.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

I did, too.  He was the real deal in everything he did.  Casablanca puts it over the top for me.  And he was just oily in Robin Hood.  And cynical in Mr Smith.  His range is just incredible.

And also it seems, underrated.

i probably was unfair to the old boy but my downgrade was based on two of my least favorite famous old movies (both waaaay too hammy for me) - the last two you cite    :scared:

Edited by wikkidpissah

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Wikkid bailed me out on my Cazale pick. Good work on judging a challenging category 

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20 minutes ago, wikkidpissah said:

i probably was unfair to the old boy but my downgrade was based on two of my least favorite famous old movies (both waaaay too hammy for me) - the last two you cite    :scared:

He did the job he was hired to do.  That's what he was supposed to do.  And he made every movie he was in better.  That's why he was in so many of the movies we drafted.  When you want to make a great movie, you hire the best.

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1 minute ago, Mrs. Rannous said:

He did the job he was hired to do.  That's what he was supposed to do.  And he made every movie he was in better.  That's why he was in so many of the movies we drafted.  When you want to make a great movie, you hire the best.

To be fair to out judge, every one of the actors drafted made their movies better. It's just personal preference to rank those fantastic actors. 

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I will post  my first category results for Romantic Comedy in the morning. I'd intended to post tonight, but was unable to finish my write-ups. Apologies.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, wikkidpissah said:

SUPPORTING ACTOR

Menace. The most important aspect of life that no one talks about and the ingredient at the core of all electronic entertainment.

Every organism's first job is survival and the first tactic of survival is to attempt dominance. From termite mound to lion pride, from caveman's club to infant's hi-chair tray, the primal instinct of any being is to pound one's Cheerios into submission. In order that we dont just automatically extinct ourselves with our impulses, civilization frustrates dominance until we are each tiny pods of an unspoken rage, more precarious to access with each passing generation. Menace is our surrogate for dominance, something storytellers have known for a long time and media has now monetized. All men are captives of the brand of menace which most impresses them and to which they feel the closest access (women can be impressed by the ability to menace, but have no need for it in their media because they can menace a man any time they feel the need for speed) and the major reason Western Civilization becomes more suckerized each season.

If you want to think about all that before i show how the best supporting actors of cinema are part & parcel of my theory of menace as the center of storytelling & entertainment, g'ahead. i'll wait..........................................................................................................

16. Casey Affleck (1 point) - The younger Affleck gave a wonderful performance in Manchester by the Sea. It made me want to research his supporting roles, but i realized it was easier to say that Casey Affleck is NOT Eli Wallach, EGMarshall, Lee J Cobb, Jason Robards, Rod Steiger, Martin Balsam (or whoever else of the cast of 12 Angry Men i left out), James Earl Jones, George Sanders, John Gielgud, Jeffrey Wright, Sydney Greenstreet, Alec Guiness, Harvey Keitel, Michael Pena or even Wilford frikkin Brimley

15. Claude Rains (2 pts) - Love Claude Rains, but i cant put him over the bar i just set either.

14. Ed Harris (3 pts) - Just an all-round blend-in MVP, as well as a lead performance in Pollack that was even better than Affleck in Manchester. Same deal, though.

13. Alan Rickman (4 pts) - ibid

Before we move to the actual contenders for best (and i would not be upset by any of the top dozen being #1, except for my menace angle), my favorite supporting performance of all time (3:30 of this to 5:00 of this), by vaudevillian Ed Wynn.

12. Edward G Robinson (5 pts)- my old business partner grew up next to Eddy G and, from his recollections, i know for a FACT that the great actor, raconteur & collector would abhor being thought of as anything but a star. So i put him at the bottom of the greats as his protest against the classification.

But he is also my way to introduce menace as the abiding quality in movie performance. The ugly little man became a star on menace alone - whether a Caesar, a weasel or haunted citizen, he projected workaday villainy & avarice & relentlessness in a way that activated everyone's sense of the menace in their secret hearts and turned movies into a vicarious chase to the top instead of a reflection of life. But he was a star, so last of these.

11. Tommy Lee Jones (6 pts) - Put Ed Harris in a bowl, add black hair dye, battery acid and menace. Stir.

10. Walter Brennan (7 pts) - the other side of the coin: the menaced. I don't even remember if Brennan actually had a limp or not. Don't matter. No one reflected a person beaten up by the venalities of existence like Walter. He even won sometimes, on determination alone - a very American thing at one time. But he was Job personified, to those who did & didnt believe in God.

9. Michael Caine (8 pts) - the Cockney Gene Hackman. Believable as anybody - menace, menaced, menacer of menaces and, therefore, a lead or supporting player. Began as a leading menace to respectable mores, Alfie,  then played one of the great menacers of all time - The Man Who Would Be King's Peachy Carnehan, Iago to a man who left civilization to become not only a king but a god, and suffered the ultimate pain & woe to bring proof of their quest home when they were done. Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, Cider House Rules, a seething turn in The Quiet American and Alfred to boot.

8. Peter Lorre (9 pts) - the Ur creep, but i have personal reasons to make him tops of the classic-era supporting players. me Ma (RIP) was orphaned in her teens and taken in by a Sicilian family. Sundays were gigantic meals, lawn bowling and all the children entertaining the adults. while the older kids had to play clarinet or do recitations, i went vaudeville and learned two imitations (Louis Armstrong and an imitation of an imitation of Peter Lorre, from this Spike Jones record) and did the same routine every week and the grownups would howl every time  and i didnt have to practice anything. thx M.

7. Morgan Freeman (10 pts) - a very powerful force in modern moviemaking because any world becomes palpable when Mr. Freeman  addresses it. I'm not sure what to do with that because it's so unprecedented. Can't put him higher because his performances are more useful than great.

6. Joe Pesci (11 pts) - the world caught up to Peter Lorre, making it possible for a creep to be a player and that player is Joe Pesci. I would love to see someone modernize a Shakespeare piece and have Pesci play one of the Bard's enduring creeps. But he's a one-note player so, as ultimately menacing as that one note is and as memorable as some of his roles are, i can place him no higher. 

5. John Cazale (12 pts) - the unicorn. Cazale's movies AVERAGED 10 Oscar nominations; he taught Meryl Streep why we act and he did the most courageous thing any actor who made it to Hollywood ever did - played weak. There is a Sal, a Fredo in every man and each of us loathe being reminded of that at every turn. But some stories have no perspective unless someone is willing to play that and John Cazale used star talent in his unfortunately short career to give good pictures greatness by delivering that perspective. It's like going to a museum and finding the same human figure in The Last Supper, The Garden of Earthly Delights,  the Night Watch and The Potato Eaters

4. Phillip Seymour Hoffman (13 pts) - I have no problem stipulating that PSH is the best actor of any on this list. But, as i said in my preface to my supporting actress list, the roles are as much a factor as the acting and my favorite of his performances (Capote, Synecdoche) were very much leads. Even though, on the menacing front, he played the best Bond-type villain ever in MI3, the landmark supporting role isnt there to rank him any higher.

3. Gene Hackman (14 pts) - the American man. His temper, temperament, manfulness, menace, confidence & dread are the makings of any guy who tried. Size of the role don't matter for he or Duvall (who would have won this) - if he aint supporting the star, he's supporting the audience in their understanding of the story at hand. I had him down with Caine originally and he kept rising up. By the time he got this high, i had the top two set in my head so this is his ceiling.

2. Christopher Walken (15 pts) - now this is menace. Nothing menaces us more, even women, than our mental health. What flights of fear & fancy make us take personally what we do? How does hating at ourselves til we can love ourselves again work? Why do we continue when we have very little idea what happens next and what we'll do about it? ALL of that bounces across the minds of Christopher Walken's characters and one can see the play of every bit of it. He's locked in & loose as a goose at the same time and, lord help me, i love it so. Right after i came to the menace idea for judging this (i once actually considered rating them on a scale of imitatibility) i watched the cable-ubiquitous Catch Me If You Can. As Frank Abegnale Sr, Walken used a career of menacing to show a man ultimately menaced and i cried. Add that to Nick in Deer Hunter (the greatest supporting performance i know of) and i dont know how i didnt make him #1. But i didn't....

1. Samuel L.Jackson (16 pts) - NOW, #####es! Right muddafrikkin' NOW!! Nobody has ever brought some NOW to the screen like SLJ. And, in case you havent noticed, making NOW happen is the most vital part of making movies. In fact, because of that, he may be the most important American black man of the last fifty years, cuz he leapt right past valuable or important and went to absolutely necessary. Sam Jackson pisses on your equality and aint all that impressed with his supremacy. He goin' str8 to the Wrath of God visited upon this this earth. Sure, a black man has been president, but even Obama didn't have the gravitas to righteously announce ""I've had it with these mother####ing snakes on this mother####ing plane!" So he wins

I really liked your list until I came to #1.

SLJ is very average as an actor, playing mainly the same type of part, and is so oversaturated in movies, I have a hard time liking him in anything anymore. 

This is made even worse by the huge array of talent that was available.

Edited by Mr. Mojo

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14 hours ago, wikkidpissah said:

SUPPORTING ACTOR

Menace. The most important aspect of life that no one talks about and the ingredient at the core of all electronic entertainment.

Every organism's first job is survival and the first tactic of survival is to attempt dominance. From termite mound to lion pride, from caveman's club to infant's hi-chair tray, the primal instinct of any being is to pound one's Cheerios into submission. In order that we dont just automatically extinct ourselves with our impulses, civilization frustrates dominance until we are each tiny pods of an unspoken rage, more precarious to access with each passing generation. Menace is our surrogate for dominance, something storytellers have known for a long time and media has now monetized. All men are captives of the brand of menace which most impresses them and to which they feel the closest access (women can be impressed by the ability to menace, but have no need for it in their media because they can menace a man any time they feel the need for speed) and the major reason Western Civilization becomes more suckerized each season.

If you want to think about all that before i show how the best supporting actors of cinema are part & parcel of my theory of menace as the center of storytelling & entertainment, g'ahead. i'll wait..........................................................................................................

16. Casey Affleck (1 point) - The younger Affleck gave a wonderful performance in Manchester by the Sea. It made me want to research his supporting roles, but i realized it was easier to say that Casey Affleck is NOT Eli Wallach, EGMarshall, Lee J Cobb, Jason Robards, Rod Steiger, Martin Balsam (or whoever else of the cast of 12 Angry Men i left out), James Earl Jones, George Sanders, John Gielgud, Jeffrey Wright, Sydney Greenstreet, Alec Guiness, Harvey Keitel, Michael Pena or even Wilford frikkin Brimley

15. Claude Rains (2 pts) - Love Claude Rains, but i cant put him over the bar i just set either.

14. Ed Harris (3 pts) - Just an all-round blend-in MVP, as well as a lead performance in Pollack that was even better than Affleck in Manchester. Same deal, though.

13. Alan Rickman (4 pts) - ibid

Before we move to the actual contenders for best (and i would not be upset by any of the top dozen being #1, except for my menace angle), my favorite supporting performance of all time (3:30 of this to 5:00 of this), by vaudevillian Ed Wynn.

12. Edward G Robinson (5 pts)- my old business partner grew up next to Eddy G and, from his recollections, i know for a FACT that the great actor, raconteur & collector would abhor being thought of as anything but a star. So i put him at the bottom of the greats as his protest against the classification.

But he is also my way to introduce menace as the abiding quality in movie performance. The ugly little man became a star on menace alone - whether a Caesar, a weasel or haunted citizen, he projected workaday villainy & avarice & relentlessness in a way that activated everyone's sense of the menace in their secret hearts and turned movies into a vicarious chase to the top instead of a reflection of life. But he was a star, so last of these.

11. Tommy Lee Jones (6 pts) - Put Ed Harris in a bowl, add black hair dye, battery acid and menace. Stir.

10. Walter Brennan (7 pts) - the other side of the coin: the menaced. I don't even remember if Brennan actually had a limp or not. Don't matter. No one reflected a person beaten up by the venalities of existence like Walter. He even won sometimes, on determination alone - a very American thing at one time. But he was Job personified, to those who did & didnt believe in God.

9. Michael Caine (8 pts) - the Cockney Gene Hackman. Believable as anybody - menace, menaced, menacer of menaces and, therefore, a lead or supporting player. Began as a leading menace to respectable mores, Alfie,  then played one of the great menacers of all time - The Man Who Would Be King's Peachy Carnehan, Iago to a man who left civilization to become not only a king but a god, and suffered the ultimate pain & woe to bring proof of their quest home when they were done. Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, Cider House Rules, a seething turn in The Quiet American and Alfred to boot.

8. Peter Lorre (9 pts) - the Ur creep, but i have personal reasons to make him tops of the classic-era supporting players. me Ma (RIP) was orphaned in her teens and taken in by a Sicilian family. Sundays were gigantic meals, lawn bowling and all the children entertaining the adults. while the older kids had to play clarinet or do recitations, i went vaudeville and learned two imitations (Louis Armstrong and an imitation of an imitation of Peter Lorre, from this Spike Jones record) and did the same routine every week and the grownups would howl every time  and i didnt have to practice anything. thx M.

7. Morgan Freeman (10 pts) - a very powerful force in modern moviemaking because any world becomes palpable when Mr. Freeman  addresses it. I'm not sure what to do with that because it's so unprecedented. Can't put him higher because his performances are more useful than great.

6. Joe Pesci (11 pts) - the world caught up to Peter Lorre, making it possible for a creep to be a player and that player is Joe Pesci. I would love to see someone modernize a Shakespeare piece and have Pesci play one of the Bard's enduring creeps. But he's a one-note player so, as ultimately menacing as that one note is and as memorable as some of his roles are, i can place him no higher. 

5. John Cazale (12 pts) - the unicorn. Cazale's movies AVERAGED 10 Oscar nominations; he taught Meryl Streep why we act and he did the most courageous thing any actor who made it to Hollywood ever did - played weak. There is a Sal, a Fredo in every man and each of us loathe being reminded of that at every turn. But some stories have no perspective unless someone is willing to play that and John Cazale used star talent in his unfortunately short career to give good pictures greatness by delivering that perspective. It's like going to a museum and finding the same human figure in The Last Supper, The Garden of Earthly Delights,  the Night Watch and The Potato Eaters

4. Phillip Seymour Hoffman (13 pts) - I have no problem stipulating that PSH is the best actor of any on this list. But, as i said in my preface to my supporting actress list, the roles are as much a factor as the acting and my favorite of his performances (Capote, Synecdoche) were very much leads. Even though, on the menacing front, he played the best Bond-type villain ever in MI3, the landmark supporting role isnt there to rank him any higher.

3. Gene Hackman (14 pts) - the American man. His temper, temperament, manfulness, menace, confidence & dread are the makings of any guy who tried. Size of the role don't matter for he or Duvall (who would have won this) - if he aint supporting the star, he's supporting the audience in their understanding of the story at hand. I had him down with Caine originally and he kept rising up. By the time he got this high, i had the top two set in my head so this is his ceiling.

2. Christopher Walken (15 pts) - now this is menace. Nothing menaces us more, even women, than our mental health. What flights of fear & fancy make us take personally what we do? How does hating at ourselves til we can love ourselves again work? Why do we continue when we have very little idea what happens next and what we'll do about it? ALL of that bounces across the minds of Christopher Walken's characters and one can see the play of every bit of it. He's locked in & loose as a goose at the same time and, lord help me, i love it so. Right after i came to the menace idea for judging this (i once actually considered rating them on a scale of imitatibility) i watched the cable-ubiquitous Catch Me If You Can. As Frank Abegnale Sr, Walken used a career of menacing to show a man ultimately menaced and i cried. Add that to Nick in Deer Hunter (the greatest supporting performance i know of) and i dont know how i didnt make him #1. But i didn't....

1. Samuel L.Jackson (16 pts) - NOW, #####es! Right muddafrikkin' NOW!! Nobody has ever brought some NOW to the screen like SLJ. And, in case you havent noticed, making NOW happen is the most vital part of making movies. In fact, because of that, he may be the most important American black man of the last fifty years, cuz he leapt right past valuable or important and went to absolutely necessary. Sam Jackson pisses on your equality and aint all that impressed with his supremacy. He goin' str8 to the Wrath of God visited upon this this earth. Sure, a black man has been president, but even Obama didn't have the gravitas to righteously announce ""I've had it with these mother####ing snakes on this mother####ing plane!" So he wins

Supporting actors are not limited to menace and some names were obviously missed.

Peter Ustinov, Max von Sydow,  John Goodman, Ward Bond, John Hurt, Karl Malden, Steve Buscemi, James Earl Jones, Arthur Kennedy, Jason Robards, Robert Ryan, Rod Steiger, John Turturro, Thomas Mitchell...

Too many to contemplate.  A least about four or five deep lists can be made.  

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13 hours ago, wikkidpissah said:

*singing to the tune of the Rodgers & Hammerstein hit*

i enjoy being a verb! *lalala*

Without doubt your hips are swively swirly. 

For the kids who never heard of Nancy Kwan

Not sure if the above or the combination of Dorthy Malone and Shirley Maclaine 

in Artists and Models would rank number one on the Schwing meter.

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1 hour ago, Bracie Smathers said:

Without doubt your hips are swively swirly. 

For the kids who never heard of Nancy Kwan

Not sure if the above or the combination of Dorthy Malone and Shirley Maclaine 

in Artists and Models would rank number one on the Schwing meter.

one of em makes me dotty with lust - the Rollergirl of the 50s

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18 hours ago, wikkidpissah said:

SUPPORTING ACTOR

Menace. The most important aspect of life that no one talks about and the ingredient at the core of all electronic entertainment.

Every organism's first job is survival and the first tactic of survival is to attempt dominance. From termite mound to lion pride, from caveman's club to infant's hi-chair tray, the primal instinct of any being is to pound one's Cheerios into submission. In order that we dont just automatically extinct ourselves with our impulses, civilization frustrates dominance until we are each tiny pods of an unspoken rage, more precarious to access with each passing generation. Menace is our surrogate for dominance, something storytellers have known for a long time and media has now monetized. All men are captives of the brand of menace which most impresses them and to which they feel the closest access (women can be impressed by the ability to menace, but have no need for it in their media because they can menace a man any time they feel the need for speed) and the major reason Western Civilization becomes more suckerized each season.

If you want to think about all that before i show how the best supporting actors of cinema are part & parcel of my theory of menace as the center of storytelling & entertainment, g'ahead. i'll wait..........................................................................................................

2. Christopher Walken (15 pts) - now this is menace. Nothing menaces us more, even women, than our mental health. What flights of fear & fancy make us take personally what we do? How does hating at ourselves til we can love ourselves again work? Why do we continue when we have very little idea what happens next and what we'll do about it? ALL of that bounces across the minds of Christopher Walken's characters and one can see the play of every bit of it. He's locked in & loose as a goose at the same time and, lord help me, i love it so. Right after i came to the menace idea for judging this (i once actually considered rating them on a scale of imitatibility) i watched the cable-ubiquitous Catch Me If You Can. As Frank Abegnale Sr, Walken used a career of menacing to show a man ultimately menaced and i cried. Add that to Nick in Deer Hunter (the greatest supporting performance i know of) and i dont know how i didnt make him #1. But i didn't....

 

Sweet.....Team Gallstein has dropped below -30 value points (currently at -27) thanks to that +5 value for Mr. Walken.  Great write up and thanks for the time you put into this.  Hopefully you are judging a few more categories and we can get back in this thing (as long as it's not the Rock category as I think our selection isn't on your favorite lists)....hahahaha

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