parasaurolophus
Footballguy
They are too busy chasing dem dukes.
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***Official Protest-RIOT Thread*** Police Officers fleeing Seattle and urban areas. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Summer Wheat
- Start date
djmich
Footballguy
There a lot here to unpack, will stay focused.
What do you mean by this “I can give a kid a $10K voucher to go to the best school in the entire state, but it doesn't matter if there aren't feasible resources available to take advantage of it. ”
I would have thought giving a smart kid the 10k to go to a school that supports academic excellence would be a good thing? Interested in what resources you mean are missing to take advantage of it...like a bus to get there as I said, or other things?
Also I see systemic racism a lot where I think systemic discrimination is much more appropriate.*
* before a bunch of people get upset and misinterpret I do believe racism and racists exist.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Between the post you replied to and this one I think I cut conservatives some understanding and slack. I need to go the other way now. Sorry!
But there is nothing among these conservative folk's beliefs that are worth the trouble? Nothing at all? If they value these beliefs so little why should anyone else value them at all? Like I said it is telling.
Seems pretty telling to me. Especially for anyone that has seen the success of tiny minorities around here in winning converts and sometimes even becoming majority opinion. And sure there are those that enjoy the fight but unless you count exhausting the opposition they don't really win arguments such that they change opinions.Joe Bryant said:
But there is nothing among these conservative folk's beliefs that are worth the trouble? Nothing at all? If they value these beliefs so little why should anyone else value them at all? Like I said it is telling.
The General
Footballguy
Seattle traffic, cost of living is why Seattle would be considered less desirable not because of a mayor and protests happening in some spot downtown.
How many cities in any of these dumb “most desirable lists” are even run by Republicans?
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-jb-
Footballguy
There are four R run cities in the top 25, in order of population.
San Diego
Jacksonville
Fort Worth
El Paso
The General
Footballguy
Not many. Weird.
I wonder where these rank on the important “most desirable cities in the US” lists?
-jb-
Footballguy
Those obviously vary, but willing to bet dollars to pennies El Paso is on none of them.
The General
Footballguy
djmich
Footballguy
"With a crime rate of 40 per one thousand residents, Jacksonville has one of the highest crime rates in America compared to all communities of all sizes - from the smallest towns to the very largest cities. One's chance of becoming a victim of either violent or property crime here is one in 25."
I guess it's not just Democratic mayors
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t know about the list but I’d love to live in San Diego. Certain parts are paradise on Earth.
gianmarco
Footballguy
My thoughts on that are mixed.
Not sure when that was created and what it is sourced off of, but my first impression is the whole thing seems dated.
Culture exists. It's normally thought of as regional, such as European culture, South American culture, Asian culture, etc. But it can also be ascribed to most any groups that band together, whether due to geography or religion or, in this case, race. There is such a thing as black culture or Native American culture.
So I understand where they are going with that poster. It looks more like "American" culture, especially from long ago, and due to being white-centric, it is getting called "white culture".
And that's where I think it breaks down. Because it's not the same as "white culture" in, say, Eastern Europe even though they are white. And those characteristics aren't attributable to race inherently but for the fact that America was a white majority in the past in terms of who was in charge and what was deemed good and what wasn't.
I'm not sure what context that poster was displayed as and I think it matters. If it's trying to represent things currently or as a way to think in today's world, it's wrong. If it's some kind of historical piece and it's dated, then it's just that. Do we even know when that was created?
The Commish
Footballguy
Resources can be anything from transportation to the supplies required to go the school or the uniforms etc. I know of specific cases where the closest "good" school that a parent would select for their kid is 45 minutes to an hour away. The parent is working two jobs and simply can't get them there. I also know people who acknowledge that the access to the school is great but they can't afford the "rest" of what it takes to be a student there. Of course, the response (especially to the latter) can be "give them more money". The prior is a significant problem as many simply won't be able to make it work and if they do, then there's the psychological impacts on the child basically going to school in a "different world" than where they spend most of their free time. Most likely, there is virtually nothing familiar to a student going to one of those schools so far away and, sadly, the local community will often times look down on the family taking their child out of the local community to go somewhere else for school. So now the kid isn't liked by their local community (as screwed up as that may be) and goes to school with a ton of people they have nothing in common with. It takes a toll if I am to believe those who I've talked to about their situations.
To your last point, discrimination based on race is the very definition of racism. Any time you are determining a pecking order and race is a part of that determination, it's racism.
The Commish
Footballguy
Fruitless effort to have this discussion IMO. The definition of "conservative" has changed significantly in the last 10 years nationally and here. What passed for conservative then is labeled commie pinko today as the GOP and it's supporters sprint to the right and that's just politically. Throw on top of that all the people who have jumped ship because while they might agree with political policy to an extent, they simply can't get on board with the moral corruption and blatant prejudices being peddled under the guise of "winning" and the comparison is just too apples and oranges for the terminology.
gianmarco
Footballguy
All seems about right. It looks dated. I doubt it would be created in today's climate. And it was appropriately taken down.
Not sure what the big deal is about it in that context.
djmich
Footballguy
Well someone thought it was relevant and based on the article I think people still do. It wasn’t taken down because it was wrong.All seems about right. It looks dated. I doubt it would be created in today's climate. And it was appropriately taken down.
Not sure what the big deal is about it in that context.
The Commish
Footballguy
I know you didn't ask me, but I scoff at stuff like this. IMO, "white culture" doesn't exist, nor does "black culture". To stop there and not understand the nationality, region of the world, culture that white skinned person comes from is a disservice to all. A white person from Germany is going to be very different than a white person for Great Britain is going to be different than a white person from Russia is going to be different than a white person from Canada. So when one stops at the 100,000 foot level of analysis, I don't think much of said analysis.
gianmarco
Footballguy
What's your point with all this?
It was created long ago. People now noted it and complained. The director of the museum apologized and took it down and said they erred in including it. That's how these things work.
That I agree with Donald Jr on this is supposed to be a gotcha? It's not. We probably agree that murder isn't good too.
Other than that, this wasn't some widespread issue. It's a single poster in a single museum that was dealt with. This would be a much bigger deal if a) someone just created it and put it up or b) they were asked to take it down for reasons we've discussed and they refused. Then I could see having more of a conversation on this. As such, thanks for bringing it up, not sure there's anything else to go over this.
The Gator
Footballguy
djmich
Footballguy
Understand on your first point. Difficult because again comparable school funding isn’t solving the problem either...would be interested in any data if you have that supports the positive impact. I’d be shocked if not some.
On your last point, you introduced the word pecking order which I wasn’t really addressing. I think pecking orders, depending on the context can imply racism yes. I was thinking about the NIH link you sent me (great read, thank you) which specifically uses the word discrimination, not racism in the title. The outcome is what matters to me, and as that article showed there were bad outcomes.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Well said. When I was traveling all over the world for work this held true for all races. The whites I met in different areas were all different in many ways. The blacks I met were all different. The chart is laughable in many ways..the same as if a white person made up a chart about black culture from their point of view.
White Culture- We like bland food.
Black Culture- We like hot sauce
White Culture- We like to save for the future and get ahead
Black Culture- We like to spend money like drunken sailors
White women- Subordinate
Black women- We will kick our mans butt.
All of this is stereotypical and could go on forever with other races making up the lists about each other. Sounds a little like Reggie Whites speech.
djmich
Footballguy
See above.
I've talked about this several times on this forum, pretty sure with you. My point overall is that there is this really fuzzy area called "culture" and unfortunately "sides" are trying to use it to their advantage with disregard for any thought. Both sides. What I struggle with is this idea that there are no cultural differences between people....and the close corollary that the only cultural difference between white and black is a result of slavery and racism. Do you believe the last is true? Are there any cultural differences between Asians Americans and white Americans? Why does it seem generally "left" leaning thinking is trying to highlight the cultural differences between white and black...I would have thought this was fertile ground of the white supremacists.
This Article elaborates on some of what I referenced above.
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boots11234
Footballguy
How could anyone defend this let alone come up with this list in the first place. That could have easily been written by the Democrat founders and members of the KKK. As a matter of fact you should have started a poll: KKKK or AA museum. Who wrote this?
boots11234
Footballguy
The decline of this nation intensified when I entered the 4th grade I believe. That is when they started teaching America is a salad bowl. In third grade I was taught we were a melting pot. Many cultures mixed together to become one was changed to just many cultures. IMO this was the start of the decent. Heck it’s on our money (until the Democrats remove it) from many to one. Not any more sadly.
It was a bombing.
Explosive device thrown into the building that exploded a minute later and they have a good image of the suspect.
The General
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
I'm not sure what you mean by the bold and am not exactly sure what you're after so here's a few examples of which I speak:
A Little History with Anecdotal Evidence
Money Matters
It's Not Nothing
Impacts from Increased Funding
Perhaps what you mean above is you aren't seeing the fruits of the investment? If so, that isn't all that surprising to me. The money, obviously, has to be used correctly and that isn't always done. Another factor is looking at long term vs short term. Most of the research says that throwing money at things short term is almost always a bad idea. Money can be the long game answer if you have competent, dedicated leadership focused on the kids.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
Just going by what I see on the news. Last night was not false or hyperbole and looked like a riot on TV, not peaceful at all.urbanhack said:
So if they get to the courthouse what are they going to do? I am all for people expressing themselves but what is going on now is senseless.
No need to get hostile, we can have a conversation about what is going on. The live shots seem pretty telling, or are they not showing the whole story?
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gianmarco
Footballguy
First, I don't know much more about that poster/incident other than briefly reading what you linked. If someone still thinks that's relevant today, then I think they're wrong. I don't find that viewpoint conservative or liberal. If it aligns with conservatives, it doesn't bother me at all as I don't oppose conservative thinking 100% of the time. In fact probably far less than you might guess.
As to the second part you wrote, I do believe there is a link to "culture" differences between whites and blacks in this country that was a result of slavery and segregation. That is bound to happen when two groups live separately even in the same location.
Are their cultural differences between Asian Americans and white Americans? Well, if those Asian Americans came from Asian culture or were brought up by parents or grandparents that grew up there and passed down those traditions, then of course. Those that are removed from that and grew up here will have more American culture than Asian culture. The problem is calling it "white culture". Again, it's more American culture. Same as German culture is different than Italian culture is different than Norwegian culture even though they are all mostly white. The lines blur because America was ruled by primarily by whites for so long and is erroneously used synonymously, IMO. What may have been borne out of European white culture has evolved over time here and become what is American culture today. And, for example, that culture today is different than it was even 50 years ago. Some good, some bad, but still different.
djmich
Footballguy
This is a pretty large stereotype I'm about to espouse here but i think part of the problem is america does not have much of a community oriented caring culture. The number of stories i see where people are stealing from the school or the board or defrauding or paying their friends. It seems we are almost incapable of spending money in a more benevolent and fair fashion. No matter where you are there are so many people in it for themselves and that screws up the whole system
djmich
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
And yet...
There ARE assumptions made in business all the time, based on stereotypes which are generally correct. As a retail real estate agent, I know this to be true.
Example: black folks in the inner city love fried chicken more than the rest of the population. That’s not a racist statement; it’s based on sales figures. That’s why, in my neck of the woods, there are more fried chicken franchises in Compton than in all of Orange County combined. Because they sell a lot more chicken.
dkp993
Footballguy
As a life long resident I can concur. Also everyone should stay away, you’d hate it here. Really, stay away, please I’m begging you.
djmich
Footballguy
GoBirds
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
So let me get this straight. We can’t trust the media or the internet because it’s fake news and can’t trust first hand accounts now. Ok. So how are you coming to decisions on what’s going on anywhere other then what you’ve personally witnessed?. I live here therefore I'm the utmost authority....let me tell you what I've heard is going on.
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dkp993
Footballguy
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gianmarco
Footballguy
While I think they are one in the same, I do think using the term systemic discrimination might be better. It's less accusatory and I could get behind that for sure.
Also, FWIW, I've appreciated this back and forth. Even if we don't agree on everything, it's clear that there is some common ground and I have no issues discussing these things with folks that want to engage and are open minded to that difference of opinion. It would be nice if others followed your lead on how the two "sides" can discuss issues such as this. So thank you.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Interesting read
I think this is probably one of those "cultural" things. To begin with, fried chicken is more of a southern food. So perhaps there's a link there. I would guess that blacks in other parts of the world aren't into fried chicken like African-Americans. Whether it's a false stereotype or there's truth to it from a cultural perspective, I couldn't answer that. But I think it's akin to Asians eating rice. Or, in general, southerners eating grits compared to northerners. It's a cultural thing and what they grew up with.
djmich
Footballguy
Yes, I'm sure someone will be able to pull out a websters dictionary or something along those lines and say they are the same but I do think delineating is constructive.
The common argument is that the "system" is racist and then that causes a bunch of arguing. For me, I think of system and I think of something like a PC operating system or a bunch of laws. By and large and I think we can all agree our society has done good to make those not racist and not discriminatory (cant say 100%). This shouldn't be a point of contention but unfortunately I think it is and unnecessarily creates friction and dissension from the main goal.
Now, do we have racists and opportunists as operators within the system. Absolutely and thats not going to change for a long time unfortunately. Is it the system or laws thats the problem or the operators? Largely its the operators. The police force to me is a great example. Nowhere does it say kneel on black peoples necks but not white peoples. The system we have collectively designed doesn't support that. But there are bad operators.
The outcome is the same, but I think the words are loaded and it would be so much better if we could rally around fixing the operators than the "system". Or...if there are specific system elements to change (laws, rules, etc), lets call them out specifically vs saying the whole thing (and for many people that translates to America) is shot.
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GoBirds
Footballguy
It’s just quite the coincidence that the first hand accounts always fall in line with the posters track record in here and political agenda......who would have ever guessed!
djmich
Footballguy
Gonna quote myself lol...but to elaborate a little more because there's a few elements here. system, racist and discriminatory.
When I read The Commish's link about discriminatory lending practices by and large my interpretation was that the system (lending operations) was being executed in a bad way (ex. in a 2008 financial collapse way). The lending practices dis-proportionally harmed minorities because frankly they were easier marks and people gonna prey on easier marks. Was Morgan Stanley racist because they wanted a bunch of subprime loans, not in my view....but did it trickle down to what ended up to be practices that harmed the black population and that I would therefore deem discriminatory, yes. Probably poor people discriminatory and for sure black people discriminatory.
dkp993
Footballguy
Same can be said for first hand accountS of those reporting the opposite. So my question still stands.It’s just quite the coincidence that the first hand accounts always fall in line with the posters track record in here and political agenda......who would have ever guessed!
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
This just sucks for Portland that on top of everything else they have to deal with this from the federal government of all people. I feel for them.
If people are so wrapped up in news sources maybe just follow the local news. The Portland Oregonian is the oldest, largest paper / news site in Oregon, they are on the scene with real time info.
They used to have a very active forum also but unfortunately the platform killed that a while back, would love to know what the people are saying there in real time.
If people are so wrapped up in news sources maybe just follow the local news. The Portland Oregonian is the oldest, largest paper / news site in Oregon, they are on the scene with real time info.
They used to have a very active forum also but unfortunately the platform killed that a while back, would love to know what the people are saying there in real time.
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