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gianmarco

Do you think violence/looting is justified during protests?

Looting/violence during protests  

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Posted (edited)

Pretty straight forward. Some feel that others think it's justified during the protests. Let's see if that's the case.

Edited by gianmarco

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I'd love to hear someone rationalize how they could possibly say it's justified.

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1 minute ago, gruecd said:

I'd love to hear someone rationalize how they could possibly say it's justified.

I think the point is people have been accused of condoning and supporting it...on this board.

Despite saying they don't actually do so.

 

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Just now, sho nuff said:

I think the point is people have been accused of condoning and supporting it...on this board.

Despite saying they don't actually do so.

 

The one thing I will say is this:  Just like "good cops" aren't really "good" if they're not doing something to stop the "bad cops," you're really condoning the looting/violence if you're not speaking out against it.

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1 minute ago, gruecd said:

The one thing I will say is this:  Just like "good cops" aren't really "good" if they're not doing something to stop the "bad cops," you're really condoning the looting/violence if you're not speaking out against it.

silence is violence?

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2 minutes ago, gruecd said:

I'd love to hear someone rationalize how they could possibly say it's justified.

Justified: having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.

The definition is based on intention. I could see someone arguing that someone has good intentions to bring positive change through violence/looting.

I think the poll question is slightly different than the thread title. Thread title is about allowing/accepting something bad that happens. Poll question is about judging the intentions of the bad things that happen.

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Just now, quick-hands said:

silence is violence?

Exactly.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

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Just now, dgreen said:

Justified: having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.

The definition is based on intention. I could see someone arguing that someone has good intentions to bring positive change through violence/looting.

I think the poll question is slightly different than the thread title. Thread title is about allowing/accepting something bad that happens. Poll question is about judging the intentions of the bad things that happen.

Do you really think that anyone's intention in looting is to "bring positive change?"  :lmao:

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2 minutes ago, dgreen said:

Justified: having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.

The definition is based on intention. I could see someone arguing that someone has good intentions to bring positive change through violence/looting.

I think the poll question is slightly different than the thread title. Thread title is about allowing/accepting something bad that happens. Poll question is about judging the intentions of the bad things that happen.

So you are ok with stealing somebody's stuff if you have a justifiable reason?

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Just now, quick-hands said:

So you are ok with stealing somebody's stuff if you have a justifiable reason?

Didn't you hear?  They're stealing stuff to help "bring positive change."  :rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, dgreen said:

Justified: having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.

The definition is based on intention. I could see someone arguing that someone has good intentions to bring positive change through violence/looting.

I think the poll question is slightly different than the thread title. Thread title is about allowing/accepting something bad that happens. Poll question is about judging the intentions of the bad things that happen.

I went ahead and changed the thread title to match the poll question.

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9 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

I think the point is people have been accused of condoning and supporting it...on this board.

Despite saying they don't actually do so.

 

This.

Once we get the results here, hopefully this accusation that posters here think it's justified can stop. Because it's getting repeated over and over and simply isn't true.

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8 minutes ago, gruecd said:

The one thing I will say is this:  Just like "good cops" aren't really "good" if they're not doing something to stop the "bad cops," you're really condoning the looting/violence if you're not speaking out against it.

Plenty have spoken out against such things in here and nationally.

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Just now, sho nuff said:

Plenty have spoken out against such things in here and nationally.

Agreed.  And by the same argument that people who don't speak out against racism, police brutality, etc., are condoning it ("silence is violence"), so too is the case here for those who haven't spoken out against the violent protests and looting.

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Looters are people taking advantage of an already  bad situation for their personal benefit. I doubt that they care about anything beyond their own selfishness.

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1 minute ago, gianmarco said:

Btw, this is the interview.

You don't have to agree with her at all.  But it's still worth the 6 minutes of your time to see/hear the frustration that some people have with the current situation.

Thank you. I was looking for it but couldn't find it.

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no, it's ultimately counterproductive if the goal is to create positive change.

ask Ghandi or Martin Luther King.  civil disobedience yes.  violence, no.

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Just now, song said:

no, it's ultimately counterproductive if the goal is to create positive change.

ask Ghandi or Martin Luther King.  civil disobedience yes.  violence, no.

Great post. An effective protest needs to make people feel uncomfortable, but shouldn’t include violence. 

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Looting is never justified - during these current protests or any other time.

Violence should never be used as a means to bring awareness to these protests or to somehow force the change these protesters want to see happen.

Violence is a justifiable action/reaction when it is first used upon an individual or group to try to stop their peaceful protests.

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1 hour ago, Ruffrodys05 said:

Looting is never justified - during these current protests or any other time.

Violence should never be used as a means to bring awareness to these protests or to somehow force the change these protesters want to see happen.

Violence is a justifiable action/reaction when it is first used upon an individual or group to try to stop their peaceful protests.

How do you explain the rioting, looting and violence that has taken place in Portland and other cities before and Feds showed up? Have you seen the damage to police cars and the violence towards police? 

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Shouldn't there be a second question asking should it be stopped right away because ultimately that is the issue...can't have it both ways...saying you are against violence/looting but not allowing the authorities to stop it kind of fits into the condone world...the issue is not words it is action/results.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mr. Mojo said:

Looters are people taking advantage of an already  bad situation for their personal benefit. I doubt that they care about anything beyond their own selfishness.

This!

The grand majority of the looters are criminals who are just using the protests as cover.  Throw in a small smattering of right wing agitators and some people that are legitimately caught up in the mob mentality...

https://www.google.com/search?q=sports+riots&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA859CA859&sxsrf=ALeKk0226NuVcdcj1M0IC4UZkttx8YctbA:1596216367110&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie7a6sgfjqAhVTvJ4KHRClA48Q_AUoAXoECA8QAw&biw=1536&bih=722

 

It gets so much attention now but nobody cares when it's eagles fans....

 

Edited by killface

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People looted during Katrina....that might be the saddest case I've seen

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Just now, belljr said:

People looted during Katrina....that might be the saddest case I've seen

Exactly...10-15% of the population is going to take advantage of every situation...that's the reality.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, killface said:

This!

The grand majority of the lotters are criminals who are just using the protests as cover.  Throw in a small smattering of right wing agitators and some people that are legitimately caught up in the mob mentality...

https://www.google.com/search?q=sports+riots&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA859CA859&sxsrf=ALeKk0226NuVcdcj1M0IC4UZkttx8YctbA:1596216367110&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie7a6sgfjqAhVTvJ4KHRClA48Q_AUoAXoECA8QAw&biw=1536&bih=722

 

It gets so much attention now but nobody cares when it's eagles fans....

 

Seems you left out a particular group of people when assigning blame

Edited by Megla

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I don't think it is justified, but I can see how the protestors might think it is.  But, also don't feel sorry for any violent protesters if they are arrested or get hurt themselves during the process, including by authorities trying to keep it peaceful or making arrests.  With the police defunding efforts, I guess we will see the old "we don't call 911" signs come out of storage.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Megla said:

Seeks you left out a particular group of people when assigning blame

I know....ANTIFA!!! They murdered millions, stolen babies, danced on graves...

Edited by killface

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Just now, Phil Elliott said:

I don't think it is justified, but I can see how the protestors might think it is.  But, also don't feel sorry for any violent protesters if they are arrested or get hurt themselves during the process, including by authorities trying to keep it peaceful or making arrests.  With the police defunding efforts, I guess we will see the old "we don't call 911" signs come out of storage.

Well look at the Rodney King riots.  Do i support looting and burning of private property - of course not.  Do i understand how that anger boiled over into that type of behavior 100%

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I voted no. After the first week of protests, the amount of actual violence dwindled down to insignificance. The real question should be: why do certain people spend so much time focusing on the violence? 

Let me state the answer clearly rather than hint at it: certain people, mostly conservatives and Trump supporters (though not ALL conservatives or Trump supporters) would prefer to focus on the violence rather than the issues that caused the protests. Just as they would prefer to focus on the extreme idea of defunding the police rather than real police reform. Just as they would be refer to focus on the idea that kneeling during the National Anthem is unpatriotic or disrespectful to our military rather than concern themselves with the issues that cause the kneeling to take place. 

In each case the pattern is the same. This group of conservatives and Trump supporters do not wish to tackle these complicated  issues which remain real problems in this country. Rather it is easier to unite behind the shopworn notion that all opposition to the status quo is radical and extremist. Thankfully it appears the public at large is no longer buying into this approach. 

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No. Not only isn't it justified, it defeats the purpose and gives those unsympathetic to the cause justification to denounce all protesters as "violent looters and thugs".

A quick suggestion on polls like this, may consider making the results public. Curious as to the 4 voters saying it's justified. Kind of like when the right-wing guy started smashing out the windows of the Auto Zone in MLPS which kicked-off a lot of the rioting.

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

I voted no. After the first week of protests, the amount of actual violence dwindled down to insignificance. The real question should be: why do certain people spend so much time focusing on the violence? 

Let me state the answer clearly rather than hint at it: certain people, mostly conservatives and Trump supporters (though not ALL conservatives or Trump supporters) would prefer to focus on the violence rather than the issues that caused the protests. Just as they would prefer to focus on the extreme idea of defunding the police rather than real police reform. Just as they would be refer to focus on the idea that kneeling during the National Anthem is unpatriotic or disrespectful to our military rather than concern themselves with the issues that cause the kneeling to take place. 

In each case the pattern is the same. This group of conservatives and Trump supporters do not wish to tackle these complicated  issues which remain real problems in this country. Rather it is easier to unite behind the shopworn notion that all opposition to the status quo is radical and extremist. Thankfully it appears the public at large is no longer buying into this approach. 

This is money!

It's distraction pure and simple.  I'm not sure why they are so resistant to police reforms.  Maybe they aren't, it might just be that push to make sure everyone knows that people that aren't like them are evil

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41 minutes ago, killface said:

This is money!

It's distraction pure and simple.  I'm not sure why they are so resistant to police reforms.  Maybe they aren't, it might just be that push to make sure everyone knows that people that aren't like them are evil

I have a lot of real life conservative friends. Most all of them are very much in favor of police reform. Not abolishing. But reforming and getting rid of bad cops who are protected. 

Can you elaborate on exactly what you mean with this: "Maybe they aren't, it might just be that push to make sure everyone knows that people that aren't like them are evil"

 

 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I have a lot of real life conservative friends. Most all of them are very much in favor of police reform. Not abolishing. But reforming and getting rid of bad cops who are protected. 

Can you elaborate on exactly what you mean with this: "Maybe they aren't, it might just be that push to make sure everyone knows that people that aren't like them are evil"

 

 

Well I'm speaking to the larger right wing media push that is using defund the police to push the messaging that this would end in chaos with no police.  It's a message that Trump is hammering home day after day after day with the unamerican part.  i.e. 'if you let these people win they will destroy your suburban neighborhood'

I tend to agree with you.  I don't have many trump supporting friends but do have lots of conservative friends and they very much see the benefit of considering other ideas to address social issues that don't really need a police response.  In Seattle the police respond to 1000s of 'guy strung out on drugs' calls every year.  Most people would agree that's a ridiculous waste of a specialized resource.

It is so difficult to have these national conversations nowadays though...sigh

 

 

Edited by killface

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I'm against violence, regardless of perpetrator or their reason for enacting violence (except some cases of self-defense).

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2 minutes ago, killface said:

Well I'm speaking to the larger right wing media push that is using defund the police to push the messaging that this would end in chaos with no police.  It's a message that Trump is hammering home day after day after day with the unamerican part.  i.e. 'if you let these people win they will destroy your suburban neighborhood'

I tend to agree with you.  I don't have many trump supporting friends but do have lots of conservative friends and they very much see the benefit of considering other ideas to address social issues that don't really need a police response.  In Seattle the police respond to 1000s of 'guy strung out on drugs' calls every year.  Most people would agree that's a ridiculous waste of a specialized resource.

It is so difficult to have these national conversations nowadays though...sigh

 

 

Agreed. It's not an easy conversation. Especially with people you don't know/trust well. It's a challenge.

I'm still not clear though on what you mean by "Maybe they aren't, it might just be that push to make sure everyone knows that people that aren't like them are evil".

Who are you saying is evil? 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Agreed. It's not an easy conversation. Especially with people you don't know/trust well. It's a challenge.

I'm still not clear though on what you mean by "Maybe they aren't, it might just be that push to make sure everyone knows that people that aren't like them are evil".

Who are you saying is evil? 

Sorry, it is an unclear sentence.

I'm saying that maybe deep down the people selling the constant message that 'defund the police' is going to lead to chaos and there won't be any police, actually support the concept because in a lot of ways it's probably more economically efficient to not use police for everything.  They however cannot admit that part of it because they see the defund the police as a perfect wedge issue that tries to align people as either for 'order and safety' vs those that they say are for 'chaos and criminality'.  It's the messaging even about the BLM protests.  Yes, bad things are happening but Trump has called it a 'symbol of hate'.  Drawing a very large line in the sand that you are either with hate or against it.  Both issues to me aren't worthy as a in the sand us vs them issue.  Most people see the good in having these types of conversations.  

 

 

 

 

Edited by killface

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, gianmarco said:

Pretty straight forward. Some feel that others think it's justified during the protests. Let's see if that's the case.

I don't think looting is but theres definitely rioting that should be allowed why? People just don't take constant protest seriously show some teeth and these idiots will take a step back and realize oh dam we need to make some changes or if you're corrupt you are gonna be like we need to do something to control the masses again to keep them tame so we can continue to screw them all over. Also lets be real if any of these BLM and social justice protestors did the something as the anti quarantine protestors putting on military gear and going around with weapons they'd have been shot because they are minority and minorities in power scare a lot of white people who believe blacks are nothing but animals 

Also most of the looting and rioting is being started by agent agitators. Theres numerous videos and posts all over social media of undercover cops and Government agents pretending to be protestors, paying people to loot and destroy property. One of the first ousted was the Minny Police Department on this. They are trying to cause this to dissolve the meaning of the actual protest. 

Edited by DJackson10

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13 minutes ago, killface said:

Sorry, it is an unclear sentence.

I'm saying that maybe deep down the people selling the constant message that 'defund the police' is going to lead to chaos and there won't be any police, actually support the concept because in a lot of ways it's probably more economically efficient to not use police for everything.  They however cannot admit that part of it because they see the defund the police as a perfect wedge issue that tries to align people as either for 'order and safety' vs those that they say are for 'chaos and criminality'.  It's the messaging even about the BLM protests.  Yes, bad things are happening but Trump has called it a 'symbol of hate'.  Drawing a very large line in the sand that you are either with hate or against it.  Both issues to me aren't worthy as a in the sand us vs them issue.  Most people see the good in having these types of conversations.  

Thanks for clarifying.

Obviously I'm biased as they are my friends, but for most all the conservatives I know, they don't see Police Reform as a wedge at all. 

They see bad cops as a liability to all of society and they want them out. If anything, lots of the conservatives I know aren't overly pro union and they see the police union as protecting bad cops that shouldn't be there. They do often lean toward putting a high value on low crime and enforcing laws but they see bad cops as hurting that cause. I'd agree with them on that. 

From what I can see, this wasn't something conservatives pushed at all. They see the "Let's Abolish the Police Force" as something that was brought to them. They didn't bring it up. But when presented with that idea, I see them saying, "No, let's fix what's wrong with it". Again, this is mostly anecdotal talk from what I hear from my friends. 

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6 minutes ago, DJackson10 said:

I don't think looting is but theres definitely rioting that should be allowed why? People just don't take constant protest seriously show some teeth and these idiots will take a step back and realize oh dam we need to make some changes or if you're corrupt you are gonna be like we need to do something to control the masses again to keep them tame so we can continue to screw them all over. Also lets be real if any of these BLM and social justice protestors did the something as the anti quarantine protestors putting on military gear and going around with weapons they'd have been shot because they are minority and minorities in power scare a lot of white people who believe blacks are nothing but animals 

Also most of the looting and rioting is being started by agent agitators. Theres numerous videos and posts all over social media of undercover cops and Government agents pretending to be protestors, paying people to loot and destroy property. One of the first ousted was the Minny Police Department on this. They are trying to cause this to dissolve the meaning of the actual protest. 

Is this a serious post? Cops are paying protestors to loot & riot. Give me a break. Show facts if you're going to post something like that.

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2 hours ago, Boston said:

Shouldn't there be a second question asking should it be stopped right away because ultimately that is the issue...can't have it both ways...saying you are against violence/looting but not allowing the authorities to stop it kind of fits into the condone world...the issue is not words it is action/results.

Who isn't allowing the authorities to stop it?  Who doesn't want the looters/violent protestors arrested? 

Do we need yet another poll to show the obvious answer that no one here has any problem with looters or violent protestors being arrested and would instead encourage that to happen?

The problem is when law enforcement attacks peaceful protests.  And that is what has been happening as well.  There is video after video of this.  I've yet to see anyone complain about an arrest when someone is doing anything more than peaceful protesting. 

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18 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for clarifying.

Obviously I'm biased as they are my friends, but for most all the conservatives I know, they don't see Police Reform as a wedge at all. 

They see bad cops as a liability to all of society and they want them out. If anything, lots of the conservatives I know aren't overly pro union and they see the police union as protecting bad cops that shouldn't be there. They do often lean toward putting a high value on low crime and enforcing laws but they see bad cops as hurting that cause. I'd agree with them on that. 

From what I can see, this wasn't something conservatives pushed at all. They see the "Let's Abolish the Police Force" as something that was brought to them. They didn't bring it up. But when presented with that idea, I see them saying, "No, let's fix what's wrong with it". Again, this is mostly anecdotal talk from what I hear from my friends. 

Your take is dead on with me and most of the conservatives I know

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22 minutes ago, DJackson10 said:

I don't think looting is but theres definitely rioting that should be allowed why? People just don't take constant protest seriously show some teeth and these idiots will take a step back and realize oh dam we need to make some changes or if you're corrupt you are gonna be like we need to do something to control the masses again to keep them tame so we can continue to screw them all over. Also lets be real if any of these BLM and social justice protestors did the something as the anti quarantine protestors putting on military gear and going around with weapons they'd have been shot because they are minority and minorities in power scare a lot of white people who believe blacks are nothing but animals 

Also most of the looting and rioting is being started by agent agitators. Theres numerous videos and posts all over social media of undercover cops and Government agents pretending to be protestors, paying people to loot and destroy property. One of the first ousted was the Minny Police Department on this. They are trying to cause this to dissolve the meaning of the actual protest. 

A whole lot to unpack here

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20 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

I see them saying, "No, let's fix what's wrong with it".

What is their proposed solution?

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Posted (edited)
Just now, The Gator said:

What is their proposed solution?

And, when is it going to actually happen?

Edited by gianmarco
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Posted (edited)

  I don't think looting can be justified....although Sam Adams and other Bostonians would probably disagree.    I think violence CAN be justified......but only by a responder to initial violence against them or people who are protesting.

 

ETA:  I do think that bringing weapons to a "peaceful" protest is wrong.....much like the people in MI did to the Governors Office.  

Edited by Thunderlips
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3 minutes ago, The Gator said:

What is their proposed solution?

Most of them want it to be much easier than it currently is to remove bad cops from the force. 

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Put me in the camp of Pro-Disruptive protests.

I don't know how to accurately define that, and I am ok with pushing the envelope.

But, I am vehemently opposed to anyone/everyone that want protests to be quiet and quaint - out of sight, out of mind.

 

You don't create change until you get people's attention.  And sometimes it takes a slap across the face to get people's attention.  Very few people change, unless they feel compelled to do so, for one reason or another.  Most people are programed to accept the status quo, and you need to shake things up if you want to force a new direction.

 

Ultimately, history is the only real judge here - protests that are "successful" are later hailed as important movements.  Protesters that fail to move popular opinion remain "violent thugs".

 

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

Most of them want it to be much easier than it currently is to remove bad cops from the force. 

Interesting.

Bad cops are not really the problem though.  And, therein lies the rub.  Systemic changes are necessary to ensure "bad cops" are not put in position in the first place.

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5 minutes ago, The Gator said:

Interesting.

Bad cops are not really the problem though.  And, therein lies the rub.  Systemic changes are necessary to ensure "bad cops" are not put in position in the first place.

What is the problem? People getting stopped by cops and not following instructions?

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