I think the point is people have been accused of condoning and supporting it...on this board.I'd love to hear someone rationalize how they could possibly say it's justified.
The one thing I will say is this: Just like "good cops" aren't really "good" if they're not doing something to stop the "bad cops," you're really condoning the looting/violence if you're not speaking out against it.I think the point is people have been accused of condoning and supporting it...on this board.
Despite saying they don't actually do so.
silence is violence?The one thing I will say is this: Just like "good cops" aren't really "good" if they're not doing something to stop the "bad cops," you're really condoning the looting/violence if you're not speaking out against it.
Justified: having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.I'd love to hear someone rationalize how they could possibly say it's justified.
Exactly. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.silence is violence?
Do you really think that anyone's intention in looting is to "bring positive change?"Justified: having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.
The definition is based on intention. I could see someone arguing that someone has good intentions to bring positive change through violence/looting.
I think the poll question is slightly different than the thread title. Thread title is about allowing/accepting something bad that happens. Poll question is about judging the intentions of the bad things that happen.
So you are ok with stealing somebody's stuff if you have a justifiable reason?Justified: having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.
The definition is based on intention. I could see someone arguing that someone has good intentions to bring positive change through violence/looting.
I think the poll question is slightly different than the thread title. Thread title is about allowing/accepting something bad that happens. Poll question is about judging the intentions of the bad things that happen.
Didn't you hear? They're stealing stuff to help "bring positive change."So you are ok with stealing somebody's stuff if you have a justifiable reason?
I went ahead and changed the thread title to match the poll question.Justified: having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason.
The definition is based on intention. I could see someone arguing that someone has good intentions to bring positive change through violence/looting.
I think the poll question is slightly different than the thread title. Thread title is about allowing/accepting something bad that happens. Poll question is about judging the intentions of the bad things that happen.
This.I think the point is people have been accused of condoning and supporting it...on this board.
Despite saying they don't actually do so.
Plenty have spoken out against such things in here and nationally.The one thing I will say is this: Just like "good cops" aren't really "good" if they're not doing something to stop the "bad cops," you're really condoning the looting/violence if you're not speaking out against it.
Agreed. And by the same argument that people who don't speak out against racism, police brutality, etc., are condoning it ("silence is violence"), so too is the case here for those who haven't spoken out against the violent protests and looting.Plenty have spoken out against such things in here and nationally.
Thank you. I was looking for it but couldn't find it.Btw, this is the interview.
You don't have to agree with her at all. But it's still worth the 6 minutes of your time to see/hear the frustration that some people have with the current situation.
Great post. An effective protest needs to make people feel uncomfortable, but shouldn’t include violence.no, it's ultimately counterproductive if the goal is to create positive change.
ask Ghandi or Martin Luther King. civil disobedience yes. violence, no.
How do you explain the rioting, looting and violence that has taken place in Portland and other cities before and Feds showed up? Have you seen the damage to police cars and the violence towards police?Looting is never justified - during these current protests or any other time.
Violence should never be used as a means to bring awareness to these protests or to somehow force the change these protesters want to see happen.
Violence is a justifiable action/reaction when it is first used upon an individual or group to try to stop their peaceful protests.
This!Looters are people taking advantage of an already bad situation for their personal benefit. I doubt that they care about anything beyond their own selfishness.
Exactly...10-15% of the population is going to take advantage of every situation...that's the reality.People looted during Katrina....that might be the saddest case I've seen
Seems you left out a particular group of people when assigning blameThis!
The grand majority of the lotters are criminals who are just using the protests as cover. Throw in a small smattering of right wing agitators and some people that are legitimately caught up in the mob mentality...
https://www.google.com/search?q=sports+riots&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA859CA859&sxsrf=ALeKk0226NuVcdcj1M0IC4UZkttx8YctbA:1596216367110&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwie7a6sgfjqAhVTvJ4KHRClA48Q_AUoAXoECA8QAw&biw=1536&bih=722
It gets so much attention now but nobody cares when it's eagles fans....
I know....ANTIFA!!! They murdered millions, stolen babies, danced on graves...Seeks you left out a particular group of people when assigning blame
Well look at the Rodney King riots. Do i support looting and burning of private property - of course not. Do i understand how that anger boiled over into that type of behavior 100%I don't think it is justified, but I can see how the protestors might think it is. But, also don't feel sorry for any violent protesters if they are arrested or get hurt themselves during the process, including by authorities trying to keep it peaceful or making arrests. With the police defunding efforts, I guess we will see the old "we don't call 911" signs come out of storage.
This is money!I voted no. After the first week of protests, the amount of actual violence dwindled down to insignificance. The real question should be: why do certain people spend so much time focusing on the violence?
Let me state the answer clearly rather than hint at it: certain people, mostly conservatives and Trump supporters (though not ALL conservatives or Trump supporters) would prefer to focus on the violence rather than the issues that caused the protests. Just as they would prefer to focus on the extreme idea of defunding the police rather than real police reform. Just as they would be refer to focus on the idea that kneeling during the National Anthem is unpatriotic or disrespectful to our military rather than concern themselves with the issues that cause the kneeling to take place.
In each case the pattern is the same. This group of conservatives and Trump supporters do not wish to tackle these complicated issues which remain real problems in this country. Rather it is easier to unite behind the shopworn notion that all opposition to the status quo is radical and extremist. Thankfully it appears the public at large is no longer buying into this approach.
I have a lot of real life conservative friends. Most all of them are very much in favor of police reform. Not abolishing. But reforming and getting rid of bad cops who are protected.This is money!
It's distraction pure and simple. I'm not sure why they are so resistant to police reforms. Maybe they aren't, it might just be that push to make sure everyone knows that people that aren't like them are evil
Well I'm speaking to the larger right wing media push that is using defund the police to push the messaging that this would end in chaos with no police. It's a message that Trump is hammering home day after day after day with the unamerican part. i.e. 'if you let these people win they will destroy your suburban neighborhood'I have a lot of real life conservative friends. Most all of them are very much in favor of police reform. Not abolishing. But reforming and getting rid of bad cops who are protected.
Can you elaborate on exactly what you mean with this: "Maybe they aren't, it might just be that push to make sure everyone knows that people that aren't like them are evil"
Agreed. It's not an easy conversation. Especially with people you don't know/trust well. It's a challenge.Well I'm speaking to the larger right wing media push that is using defund the police to push the messaging that this would end in chaos with no police. It's a message that Trump is hammering home day after day after day with the unamerican part. i.e. 'if you let these people win they will destroy your suburban neighborhood'
I tend to agree with you. I don't have many trump supporting friends but do have lots of conservative friends and they very much see the benefit of considering other ideas to address social issues that don't really need a police response. In Seattle the police respond to 1000s of 'guy strung out on drugs' calls every year. Most people would agree that's a ridiculous waste of a specialized resource.
It is so difficult to have these national conversations nowadays though...sigh
Sorry, it is an unclear sentence.Agreed. It's not an easy conversation. Especially with people you don't know/trust well. It's a challenge.
I'm still not clear though on what you mean by "Maybe they aren't, it might just be that push to make sure everyone knows that people that aren't like them are evil".
Who are you saying is evil?
I don't think looting is but theres definitely rioting that should be allowed why? People just don't take constant protest seriously show some teeth and these idiots will take a step back and realize oh dam we need to make some changes or if you're corrupt you are gonna be like we need to do something to control the masses again to keep them tame so we can continue to screw them all over. Also lets be real if any of these BLM and social justice protestors did the something as the anti quarantine protestors putting on military gear and going around with weapons they'd have been shot because they are minority and minorities in power scare a lot of white people who believe blacks are nothing but animalsPretty straight forward. Some feel that others think it's justified during the protests. Let's see if that's the case.
Thanks for clarifying.Sorry, it is an unclear sentence.
I'm saying that maybe deep down the people selling the constant message that 'defund the police' is going to lead to chaos and there won't be any police, actually support the concept because in a lot of ways it's probably more economically efficient to not use police for everything. They however cannot admit that part of it because they see the defund the police as a perfect wedge issue that tries to align people as either for 'order and safety' vs those that they say are for 'chaos and criminality'. It's the messaging even about the BLM protests. Yes, bad things are happening but Trump has called it a 'symbol of hate'. Drawing a very large line in the sand that you are either with hate or against it. Both issues to me aren't worthy as a in the sand us vs them issue. Most people see the good in having these types of conversations.
Is this a serious post? Cops are paying protestors to loot & riot. Give me a break. Show facts if you're going to post something like that.I don't think looting is but theres definitely rioting that should be allowed why? People just don't take constant protest seriously show some teeth and these idiots will take a step back and realize oh dam we need to make some changes or if you're corrupt you are gonna be like we need to do something to control the masses again to keep them tame so we can continue to screw them all over. Also lets be real if any of these BLM and social justice protestors did the something as the anti quarantine protestors putting on military gear and going around with weapons they'd have been shot because they are minority and minorities in power scare a lot of white people who believe blacks are nothing but animals
Also most of the looting and rioting is being started by agent agitators. Theres numerous videos and posts all over social media of undercover cops and Government agents pretending to be protestors, paying people to loot and destroy property. One of the first ousted was the Minny Police Department on this. They are trying to cause this to dissolve the meaning of the actual protest.
Who isn't allowing the authorities to stop it? Who doesn't want the looters/violent protestors arrested?Shouldn't there be a second question asking should it be stopped right away because ultimately that is the issue...can't have it both ways...saying you are against violence/looting but not allowing the authorities to stop it kind of fits into the condone world...the issue is not words it is action/results.
Your take is dead on with me and most of the conservatives I knowThanks for clarifying.
Obviously I'm biased as they are my friends, but for most all the conservatives I know, they don't see Police Reform as a wedge at all.
They see bad cops as a liability to all of society and they want them out. If anything, lots of the conservatives I know aren't overly pro union and they see the police union as protecting bad cops that shouldn't be there. They do often lean toward putting a high value on low crime and enforcing laws but they see bad cops as hurting that cause. I'd agree with them on that.
From what I can see, this wasn't something conservatives pushed at all. They see the "Let's Abolish the Police Force" as something that was brought to them. They didn't bring it up. But when presented with that idea, I see them saying, "No, let's fix what's wrong with it". Again, this is mostly anecdotal talk from what I hear from my friends.
A whole lot to unpack hereI don't think looting is but theres definitely rioting that should be allowed why? People just don't take constant protest seriously show some teeth and these idiots will take a step back and realize oh dam we need to make some changes or if you're corrupt you are gonna be like we need to do something to control the masses again to keep them tame so we can continue to screw them all over. Also lets be real if any of these BLM and social justice protestors did the something as the anti quarantine protestors putting on military gear and going around with weapons they'd have been shot because they are minority and minorities in power scare a lot of white people who believe blacks are nothing but animals
Also most of the looting and rioting is being started by agent agitators. Theres numerous videos and posts all over social media of undercover cops and Government agents pretending to be protestors, paying people to loot and destroy property. One of the first ousted was the Minny Police Department on this. They are trying to cause this to dissolve the meaning of the actual protest.
What is their proposed solution?I see them saying, "No, let's fix what's wrong with it".
And, when is it going to actually happen?What is their proposed solution?
Most of them want it to be much easier than it currently is to remove bad cops from the force.What is their proposed solution?
Interesting.Most of them want it to be much easier than it currently is to remove bad cops from the force.
What is the problem? People getting stopped by cops and not following instructions?Interesting.
Bad cops are not really the problem though. And, therein lies the rub. Systemic changes are necessary to ensure "bad cops" are not put in position in the first place.