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1st "Guilty" Plea in the Russia Collusion Delusion (1 Viewer)

Posted.

The 3 IG reports, reports on the Huber, DOJ, & Durham investigations and similar stories are in there as well. Just FYI. 
Ok...it was mentioned in the "Trump FBI Thread".....I missed it.

You also mentioned, "Clinesmith stated "No" when asked in the application if Page had previously worked as an informant, when in fact Page had indeed cooperated with the Feds the first time he got caught up with Russian intelligence operatives."

...when in reality, Clinesmith (who tweeted "viva la resistance") purposely altered an email to produce the results needed to obtain a FISA Warrant.

It deserves a thread of its own with a title that changes as we follow it to its conclusion

 
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Ok...it was mentioned in the "Trump FBI Thread".....I missed it.

You also mentioned, "Clinesmith stated "No" when asked in the application if Page had previously worked as an informant, when in fact Page had indeed cooperated with the Feds the first time he got caught up with Russian intelligence operatives."

...when in reality, Clinesmith (who has posted anti-Trump tweets) purposely altered an email to produce the results needed to obtain a FISA Warrant.

It deserves a thread of its own with a title that changes as we follow it to its conclusion
Ok I posted the report. I thought you meant mentioned as in referenced it.

What happened with Clinesmith is also discussed elsewhere in the FBI thread. He changed a Yes to a No - in an email thread - as to an inquiry of whether Page has previously worked as an informant for the Feds. He had, previously when he got caught up in a Russian intel operation as a tool/asset. IMO Clinesmith does deserve to be charged and he was right to plead guilty. 

 
Ok I posted the report. I thought you meant mentioned as in referenced it.

What happened with Clinesmith is also discussed elsewhere in the FBI thread. He changed a Yes to a No - in an email thread - as to an inquiry of whether Page has previously worked as an informant for the Feds. He had, previously when he got caught up in a Russian intel operation as a tool/asset. IMO Clinesmith does deserve to be charged and he was right to plead guilty. 
Hold that thought.

 
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to produce the results needed to obtain a FISA Warrant.
I’ll add the Page Fisa probably would have still been granted. The thing with having been an informant means that the FISC would then ask why the Feds didn’t simply go to Page for his cooperation. Page lying to his own superiors means not only that they were denied the chance to explain that point, but also that it proves a lack of conspiracy. Clinesmith was lying to the higher ups who actually completed and filed the application.

 
Process crime.
So glad you accept the procedure.

I'm sure that there will more to follow....processing itself up the line.
Three points:

1. The Trump administration is attempting to criminalize the disciplinary process. In years past, Clinesmith's infraction would have resulted in suspension, demotion, or (at worst) termination. In any case, it would have been handled internally. Now we're selectively arresting people in law enforcement who just happen to be on the opposite "side" of the people in power. Trump supporters are cheering for the exact type of biased policing that they complained about all throughout the Russia investigation.

2. This is part of a continued pattern of attacking and delegitimizing law enforcement. It's a sad irony that Trump and his supporters are contributing to the erosion of public confidence in the police. Remember when Republicans said that national security was at risk because morale at the FBI was so low (during the Obama years) that agents were on the verge of resigning in droves? Well, congrats on making things worse.

3. Assuming that there will be more arrests "up the line" is not only a fundamental misunderstanding of the investigative process, but it's Qanon-level wishcasting.

 
Three points:

1. The Trump administration is attempting to criminalize the disciplinary process. In years past, Clinesmith's infraction would have resulted in suspension, demotion, or (at worst) termination. In any case, it would have been handled internally. Now we're selectively arresting people in law enforcement who just happen to be on the opposite "side" of the people in power. Trump supporters are cheering for the exact type of biased policing that they complained about all throughout the Russia investigation.

2. This is part of a continued pattern of attacking and delegitimizing law enforcement. It's a sad irony that Trump and his supporters are contributing to the erosion of public confidence in the police. Remember when Republicans said that national security was at risk because morale at the FBI was so low (during the Obama years) that agents were on the verge of resigning in droves? Well, congrats on making things worse.

3. Assuming that there will be more arrests "up the line" is not only a fundamental misunderstanding of the investigative process, but it's Qanon-level wishcasting.
put a pin in that

I am sure you'll be repeating it in the months to come.

 
What’s interesting/fascinating is you’re desire to completely ignore or write off the indictments and convictions involved with the Russia investigations but point out the 1st (and only to this point) plea Involved in any wrong doing.  Not a biased viewpoint at all.

You seem like a really smart dude Opie, it’s a shame that you’re so blinded by your partisanship that you can only view things through the lens of all or nothing.  I really think if you were able to open that lens up just a little wider you would see that there were(in this case)/ are(in most cases) real issues on both sides.   

 
What’s interesting/fascinating is you’re desire to completely ignore or write off the indictments and convictions involved with the Russia investigations but point out the 1st (and only to this point) plea Involved in any wrong doing.  Not a biased viewpoint at all.

You seem like a really smart dude Opie, it’s a shame that you’re so blinded by your partisanship that you can only view things through the lens of all or nothing.  I really think if you were able to open that lens up just a little wider you would see that there were(in this case)/ are(in most cases) real issues on both sides.   
Do you seriously think that this will be the "one and only" guilty plea coming down the pike?
The last I heard, there were at least 17 discrepancies in the FISA Warrant....this is ONE of them!
Unless the other 16 were comma splices and spelling errors...this is just the beginning.

We've listened to, over three years of constant allegations made at President Trump only to find out it was all BS....that was one side.

Now, it's coming out that the investigators were far from bias....

You bet your ### that I'm interested in now hearing, "the other side"...and so are a LOT of other people.

I suggest that you actually take some time and find out, why.
You're going to be hearing a LOT about it in the near future.

 
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Do you seriously think that this will be the "one and only" guilty plea coming down the pike?

We've listened to, over three years of constant allegations made at President Trump only to find out it was all BS....that was one side.

Now, it's coming out that the investigators were far from bias....

You bet your ### that I'm interested in now hearing, "the other side"...and so are a LOT of other people.
Thanks.  But your reply not only missed my point but reinforced it.  Either way I know I’m not gonna make a dent so I’ll drop it.  Enjoy your Saturday.  

 
Mueller did not clear Trump of obstruction of justice. He said he would say so if that was the case. Mueller left open that he could be charged with this among other things when he leaves the WH.

Mueller was advised he could not pursue it because of guidance of indicting a sitting Prez.

Is this not correct?

 
Not surprising,   pelosi and shifty hanging their hats on this.   so out of touch, embarrassing.   another bottle of wine Nancy.   😁

 
Mueller did not clear Trump of obstruction of justice. He said he would say so if that was the case. Mueller left open that he could be charged with this among other things when he leaves the WH.

Mueller was advised he could not pursue it because of guidance of indicting a sitting Prez.

Is this not correct?
Yeah...ol' Mueller and his crew.
I wonder what we'll find out about them....you know...what they knew...and when.

Time will tell.

 
Who can really trust the Pro-Trump side on this?  They're not believable people....Barr and the like.  They're not trustworthy.  
You are correct.

Let's just trust the MSM...you know...they guys who crammed this Russia BS down our throats for the past few years.

Let's just trust Steve Schiff....he has the evidence, you know.

 
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Yeah...ol' Mueller and his crew.
I wonder what we'll find out about them....you know...what they knew...and when.

Time will tell.
In the meantime we can agree Trump was not cleared by Mueller. The prez can do pretty much whatever they want. 

 
In the meantime we can agree Trump was not cleared by Mueller. The prez can do pretty much whatever they want. 
It's all "meantime' from here.

To pass the time, we can watch, "Richard Jewell" (it's on HBO). 
The Clint Eastwood movie that focuses on how the Media and the FBI ruined an innocent man's life.

The truth eventually came out there, too.

Enjoy the movie.   :popcorn:

 
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To pass the time, we can watch, "Richard Jewell" (it's on HBO). 
I watched this the other night (pfft what else is there to do). I did enjoy it. - Do you remember the scene when Jewell stands up for himself and asks the Feds if they have *any evidence against them and they blanch, and then he walks out the door? Every single one of the charges brought against Trump's cohort could have been challenged before a judge in just that way. Often they did. Absolutely nothing was stopping any of those folks from availing themselves of their rights, then, now, or ever.  Richard Jewell did it and he wasn't rich or powerful like all of these people.

 
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...and Richard Jewell wasn't wading in the swamp we call Washington DC politics and nobody was suffering from Jewell Derangement Syndrome.

I notice you offered no defense for the MSM or the FBI in the movie
(and these were just lower-level FBI field agents...not the top echelon)

......will you defend their actions now, as the truth comes out?

 
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Are you aware of Horowitz's 3rd report, or the FBI's report to the FISC? This has been addressed there. I posted at least on the 3rd report in the FBI thread.
Is this the FISC report you are referring to?

Statement of Assistant Attorney General for National Security John C. Demers on the Public Release of the Department’s Findings with Respect to the 29 FISA Applications that Were the Subject of the March 2020 OIG Preliminary Report

“The Department of Justice has completed its review of the 29 FISA applications that were the subject of preliminary findings by the DOJ Inspector General (OIG) in March 2020.  We are pleased that our review of these applications concluded that all contained sufficient basis for probable cause and uncovered only two material errors, neither of which invalidated the authorizations granted by the FISA Court.   These findings, together with the more than 40 corrective actions undertaken by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Division, should instill confidence in the FBI’s use of FISA authorities.  We would like to express our appreciation to the OIG for their focus on the Department’s use of its national security authority.  We remain committed to improving the FISA process to ensure that we use these tools consistent with the law and our obligations to the FISA Court.  The ability to surveil and to investigate using FISA authorities remains critical to confronting current national security threats, including election interference, Chinese espionage and terrorism.”      

Background

In March 2020, the OIG issued a Memorandum regarding the preliminary findings from its audit of 29 historical FISA applications.  The audit was designed to determine whether the contents of the FBI’s Woods files supported the factual statements in these applications.  The OIG found deficient documentation in these accuracy (i.e., Woods) files and potential errors.  Specifically, the OIG found that FBI was unable to produce the Woods files for 4 of the 29 applications, and the OIG identified numerous apparent errors or inadequately supported facts in all 25 of the 29 applications for which Woods files could be produced.

The OIG did not determine whether any factual assertions in the applications were inaccurate, materially or otherwise.  In addition, when the OIG found a fact unsupported by a document in the Woods file, the OIG did not give the FBI the opportunity to locate a supporting document for the fact outside the file. 

The Department has reviewed the OIG’s preliminary findings for each application.  Each of these applications was also subject to an independent accuracy review.  The Department was able to resolve many of the potential issues identified by the OIG. The FBI was also able to compile Woods files for the 4 applications where an original Woods file could not be located, and the FBI was able in many instances to locate documentation to support a factual assertion either elsewhere in the Woods file or in other files available to the FBI.  Based on the Department’s findings, of the hundreds of pages of facts contained in the 29 applications audited by the OIG, the Department has identified only one material misstatement and one material omission, neither of which we assess to have invalidated the authorizations granted by the FISC.  These findings have been provided to the FISA Court and were posted publicly today. 

 
...and if I'm not mistaken...it is the origins and procedure of this investigation that is being investigated now.

Hey, if anyone here is happy to know that their FBI could work outside the boundaries with no repercussions....have at it.
If you want to know what happened....try to keep an open mind and hope we get to the bottom of it so it won't happen again...

...even if the results of this investigation doesn't help get rid of President Trump and maybe even damages the previous administration.

 
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Why wasn't this in the Mueller Report?  Where was this one in their timeline of events?  They had to know this stuff by the time it came out.  Did they think it wasn't relevant to the public interest that the FBI falsified documents to spy on the Trump campaign?  Just insinuate as much garbage conspiracy theories about Trump/Russia as possible and make the FBI look like benevolent angels?

Again and again, Comey, Mueller, and tons of intelligence operatives were dishonest with the public.  When will people accept that the conspiracy theories were deliberate trash?  Where is the accountability for their massive deception against the American public?  

 


Based on the Department’s findings, of the hundreds of pages of facts contained in the 29 applications audited by the OIG, the Department has identified only one material misstatement and one material omission, neither of which we assess to have invalidated the authorizations granted by the FISC.  These findings have been provided to the FISA Court and were posted publicly today.
Thank you, yes, that's it, I appreciate the link and info.

 
Just stand, the ####, by.
Are you waiting for the new talking points to come out so you have an appropriate rebuttal?

@dkp993 had this right. You're too intelligent and passionate for your views. I'm not going to go back into the weeds on the Mueller report, it's clear you've cherry picked items that support your opinion.  The difference we have is that many (most?) of the people here that you love to chastise and treat with dripping condescension will have no problem seeing individuals caught and punished for their roles in investigatory malfeasance regarding Russia.  But we also want Trump and his cohorts to face the music for their myriad instances of corruption, which you and your cohort refuse to acknowledge is way past due, or even exist.

 
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:blackdot:

Someone needs to pay for this witch hunt or we'll see this over and over again in our political system and it's not good for our political system or for the country.

 
Are you waiting for the new talking points to come out so you have an appropriate rebuttal?

@dkp993 had this right. You're too intelligent and passionate for your views. I'm not going to go back into the weeds on the Mueller report, it's clear you've cherry picked items that support your opinion.  The difference we have is that many (most?) of the people here that you love to chastise and treat with dripping condescension will have no problem seeing individuals caught and punished for their roles in investigatory malfeasance regarding Russia.  But we also want Trump and his cohorts to face the music for their myriad instances of corruption, which you and your cohort refuse to acknowledge is way past due, or even exist.
Speaking of....do you have any idea how much the Clinton Foundation has taken in since she hasn't been holding any office?

Let's look that up and compare it to the years leading up to 2016.
What? Did their Mission Statement change...or something else?

While we're doing that, we can wait for the news to play out over Joe & Hunter Biden and China and the Ukraine.

You cry about corruption....and I laugh.

 
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...and Richard Jewell wasn't wading in the swamp we call Washington DC politics and nobody was suffering from Jewell Derangement Syndrome.

I notice you offered no defense for the MSM or the FBI in the movie (and these were just lower-level FBI field agents...not the top echelon) ......will you defend their actions now, as the truth comes out?
Sorry I hadn't noticed you had replied.

I'm not really familiar with the Jewell case beyond the news when it happened. But as far as the movie is concerned, well treat it as a hypothetical. Say the FBI tries to pressure an innocent man into confessing, say they search his home more than once, they surveil him, question his friends, coworkers and family. And then - in the movie - what did they have? Nothing. Jewell was a working class guy and even though he was abused by the system, he did prevail and no charges were filed. - Jewell was not a DC creature, that's true, but DC swamp creatures - like Stone, like Flynn, like Manafort, like Gates, like all of the others - have all sorts of contacts, money, media assets, even direct contact with the President. It seems silly to me to argue that a non-swamper like Jewell can wend his way to the truth and vindication but people who have access to millions, the best lawyers in America, and who can directly contact Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, and the President himself, can't.

 
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Are you waiting for the new talking points to come out so you have an appropriate rebuttal?

@dkp993 had this right. You're too intelligent and passionate for your views. I'm not going to go back into the weeds on the Mueller report, it's clear you've cherry picked items that support your opinion.  The difference we have is that many (most?) of the people here that you love to chastise and treat with dripping condescension will have no problem seeing individuals caught and punished for their roles in investigatory malfeasance regarding Russia.  But we also want Trump and his cohorts to face the music for their myriad instances of corruption, which you and your cohort refuse to acknowledge is way past due, or even exist.
Speaking of....do you have any idea how much the Clinton Foundation has taken in since she hasn't been holding any office?

Let's look that up and compare it to the years leading up to 2016.
What? Did their Mission Statement change...or something else?

While we're doing that, we can wait for the news to play out over Joe & Hunter Biden and China and the Ukraine.

You cry about corruption....and I laugh.

Edited 6 hours ago by Opie
So you’re admitting Trump is corrupt or just deflecting?

 
Speaking of....do you have any idea how much the Clinton Foundation has taken in since she hasn't been holding any office?

Let's look that up and compare it to the years leading up to 2016.
What? Did their Mission Statement change...or something else?

While we're doing that, we can wait for the news to play out over Joe & Hunter Biden and China and the Ukraine.

You cry about corruption....and I laugh.
So another whataboutism comparing apples to oranges...Not sure you want to even try comparing foundations as it stands with Trump.

Just as its clear people don't want to discuss the actual investigations and reports...because each of them have been in the Trump/Russia threads and the Trump in the FBI threads...and over and over Saints has welcomed people to discuss them there rather than in other threads...and each and everytime his posts go unanswered.  I did the same recently with Russia as well as the claims about the IRS (which I have done in the past as well)...once again, there was silence on the other end when the actual details are trying to be discussed.

In the end...this guy plead guilty and should face charges...but he is small small potatoes compared to guys like Flynn and Stone and their crimes...

 
So another whataboutism comparing apples to oranges...Not sure you want to even try comparing foundations as it stands with Trump.

Just as its clear people don't want to discuss the actual investigations and reports...because each of them have been in the Trump/Russia threads and the Trump in the FBI threads...and over and over Saints has welcomed people to discuss them there rather than in other threads...and each and everytime his posts go unanswered.  I did the same recently with Russia as well as the claims about the IRS (which I have done in the past as well)...once again, there was silence on the other end when the actual details are trying to be discussed.

In the end...this guy plead guilty and should face charges...but he is small small potatoes compared to guys like Flynn and Stone and their crimes...
Keep that thought.
The Trump/Russia thing has ended.
(well, until Schiff shows us all what he has claimed to have all these years)

as for this....we're not at the end...yet.
We've only just begun.

If you're keeping count...that's one allegation & one guilty plea.

 
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Opie, I'm not sure you understand what happened here. I don't think there's been one post by a PRO Trump supporter about Clinesmith before Friday. I don't think Trump supporters by and large care about him. He's none of 'the names'. He's not charged with lying in the application (check the indictment if you like). He's not charged with lying to investigators. He's not charged with corruption or bias. This isn't even a process crime, in the sense that he did not commit a crime in the course of the process of the investigation. He's charged with altering an email. That's it. 

I don't think there's anyone rabidly pro-DNC or anti-Trump or totally independent or anyone who just walked into a room who thinks the guy shouldn't be charged for this. By avoiding the lying charges Durham basically left Clinesmith with just admitting, yeah he altered a document he was an affiant about. And that's easy because he volunteered that before there was even an investigation, by anyone.

It's pretty obvious that Trump and Barr are intent on getting their investigation and indictments - so they can replicate what they had in 2016, which seems the whole point - so no doubt when you say 'Hold On' that's almost certainly true. But this kind of paper thin charge from Durham - which was laid out totally and completely done by Horowitz over 13 months ago, on matters known since June of 2017 - doesn't presage much at this point.

 
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Opie it's probably also worth pointing out that Clinesmith's singular act happened during the Trump administration.
Much has happened since President Trump took office....such as Clinesmith's tweeting of "Viva la Resistance".
There was no "resistance" movement until President Trump took office....Before that, it was just a campaign.

 
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Much has happened since President Trump took office....such as Clinesmith's tweeting of "Viva la Resistance". There was no "resistance" movement until President Trump took office....
You seem to be agreeing with me here. This was the 3rd or 4th application for Page, right? He didn't submit it or any of them. He was just one of several affiants to multiple facts 6 months into the first year of Trump.

 
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Keep that thought.

....we're not at the end...yet.
Yeah...wait for Horowitz...wait for Mueller...wait for Horowitz...wait for wait for wait for.  (all while the same people wanting more and more and more investigations costing taxpayer dollars complained about the length of time and cost of any other investigation).

 
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Paragraph 13 reads: "On or about Jun 19, 2017, ....Kevin Clinesmith did willfully and knowingly make and use a false writing and document knowing the same to contain a materially false, fictitious, and fraudulent statement......"

 
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