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2020 NBA Playoffs Thread - Haters arguing that it took Lebron 10 Finals to win 4 titles (4 Viewers)

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i don’t know as much as everyone else does about the NBA, but naming anyone other than LeBron James MVP is a joke IMO as long as he throws on a uniform.  He turns 35 win teams into finalists year after year.  Perception to me is he has become a little ARod esque and that talents to south beach thing hasn’t helped. 

 
Chemical X said:
i don’t know as much as everyone else does about the NBA, but naming anyone other than LeBron James MVP is a joke IMO as long as he throws on a uniform.  He turns 35 win teams into finalists year after year.  Perception to me is he has become a little ARod esque and that talents to south beach thing hasn’t helped. 
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Laker fan here. I get your sentiment, and mostly agree with it. But I can't help but think that if Giannis had Anthony Davis on his team, and LeBron still had the 2018-2019 Laker roster (or the 2019-2020 Bucks roster) now, the "success" landscape would look a little different this year.

 
Gr00vus said:
Laker fan here. I get your sentiment, and mostly agree with it. But I can't help but think that if Giannis had Anthony Davis on his team, and LeBron still had the 2018-2019 Laker roster (or the 2019-2020 Bucks roster) now, the "success" landscape would look a little different this year.
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i don’t know the bucks roster enough, but if he was there and not giannis, where do you think they’d be now?  knowing how james can elevate mediocrity...

 
Gr00vus said:
Laker fan here. I get your sentiment, and mostly agree with it. But I can't help but think that if Giannis had Anthony Davis on his team, and LeBron still had the 2018-2019 Laker roster (or the 2019-2020 Bucks roster) now, the "success" landscape would look a little different this year.
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this Lakers team is Lebron, AD and.............. Rondo?

 
Gr00vus said:
Laker fan here. I get your sentiment, and mostly agree with it. But I can't help but think that if Giannis had Anthony Davis on his team, and LeBron still had the 2018-2019 Laker roster (or the 2019-2020 Bucks roster) now, the "success" landscape would look a little different this year.
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Well, sure, but why does that matter?  Most superstars need another star or superstar to win titles in the NBA. Magic never won a ring without Kareem.  MJ never won a ring without Pippen.  Durant has yet to win a ring without Steph.  Shaq never won a ring without Kobe or D-Wade.  You occasionally get an anomaly like the '04 Pistons or '11 Mavs, teams that won championships with a true number 2 superstar or star, but they are the isolated exceptions.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Well, sure, but why does that matter?  Most superstars need another star or superstar to win titles in the NBA. Magic never won a ring without Kareem.  MJ never won a ring without Pippen.  Durant has yet to win a ring without Steph.  Shaq never won a ring without Kobe or D-Wade.  You occasionally get an anomaly like the '04 Pistons or '11 Mavs, teams that won championships with a true number 2 superstar or star, but they are the isolated exceptions.
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was listening to Russillo and Simmons on a podcast earlier today and got to thinking about how often the best player in the league doesn't win the title.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Well, sure, but why does that matter?  Most superstars need another star or superstar to win titles in the NBA. Magic never won a ring without Kareem.  MJ never won a ring without Pippen.  Durant has yet to win a ring without Steph.  Shaq never won a ring without Kobe or D-Wade.  You occasionally get an anomaly like the '04 Pistons or '11 Mavs, teams that won championships with a true number 2 superstar or star, but they are the isolated exceptions.
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MJ and Pippen developed together though.  Magic was a rookie with Kareem.  Kobe was a rookie when Shaq got to the Lakers.  Durant does not get a pass -- he joined a winner -- doing what he did would have been akin to Barkley joining the Bulls after losing to them in the finals.

Lebron tries to find guys who already are considered top talent.  He moved to Miami to be with Wade (a proven winner) and Bosh (already an all-star).  Then back to CLE where he joined Kyrie who was clearly making the leap, and then trading for all-star in Love.  The Lakers were a disaster last year, and Lebron/AD forced a trade -- AD being a top 5 player in the league already.

Lebron is great.  Top 2-5 player of all-time.  He is smart, talented, a physical specimen, and makes the players around him better.  But he has been able to cherry-pick and defers -- which is why he isn't MJ.

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
Lebron is great.  Top 2-5 player of all-time.  He is smart, talented, a physical specimen, and makes the players around him better.  But he has been able to cherry-pick and defers -- which is why he isn't MJ.
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Do you think that a great point guard that averages, say 24 points &16 assists a game, and is a lockdown defender could ever surpass MJ as goat? Or would he "defer" too much?

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
MJ and Pippen developed together though.  Magic was a rookie with Kareem.  Kobe was a rookie when Shaq got to the Lakers.  Durant does not get a pass -- he joined a winner -- doing what he did would have been akin to Barkley joining the Bulls after losing to them in the finals.

Lebron tries to find guys who already are considered top talent.  He moved to Miami to be with Wade (a proven winner) and Bosh (already an all-star).  Then back to CLE where he joined Kyrie who was clearly making the leap, and then trading for all-star in Love.  The Lakers were a disaster last year, and Lebron/AD forced a trade -- AD being a top 5 player in the league already.

Lebron is great.  Top 2-5 player of all-time.  He is smart, talented, a physical specimen, and makes the players around him better.  But he has been able to cherry-pick and defers -- which is why he isn't MJ.
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I understand all of that, but was it James' fault that the Cavs were an utterly clueless franchise who was incapable of surrounding him with a good supporting cast, much less a great number 2?  What if the Bulls had been that clueless and never gotten Pippen or a really good team around Jordan?  I am sure he would have been dying to go elsewhere to try to win, although players weren't as mobile back then as they are now.  The Celtics were the ones who started the trend of established stars coming together to win a title (Garnett, Pierce, Allen), and that trend has worked to both LeBron's benefit (the Heat) and his detriment (the Warriors with Durant joining them).

And of course he isn't MJ. They are very different types of players. 

To me, the greatness of James is evident when you look at the impact he has on teams when he arrives and when he leaves.  Both times he left the Cavs, they went back to being one of the worst teams in the league, and just look at the Lakers.  I think some forget that they had been a total clown show for most of the last decade (even during Kobe's last few years), yet here they are now three games away from another championship.   Meanwhile, Jordan left the Bulls in 1993 and they still won 50+ games and were a very tough playoff out in the 2nd round (took a bad call for them to get ousted, many say).  James has never had the luxury of having a surrounding cast so good that he could leave and they'd still win 50+ games.

 
Ghost Rider said:
I understand all of that, but was it James' fault that the Cavs were an utterly clueless franchise who was incapable of surrounding him with a good supporting cast, much less a great number 2?  What if the Bulls had been that clueless and never gotten Pippen or a really good team around Jordan?  I am sure he would have been dying to go elsewhere to try to win, although players weren't as mobile back then as they are now.  The Celtics were the ones who started the trend of established stars coming together to win a title (Garnett, Pierce, Allen), and that trend has worked to both LeBron's benefit (the Heat) and his detriment (the Warriors with Durant joining them).

And of course he isn't MJ. They are very different types of players. 

To me, the greatness of James is evident when you look at the impact he has on teams when he arrives and when he leaves.  Both times he left the Cavs, they went back to being one of the worst teams in the league, and just look at the Lakers.  I think some forget that they had been a total clown show for most of the last decade (even during Kobe's last few years), yet here they are now three games away from another championship.   Meanwhile, Jordan left the Bulls in 1993 and they still won 50+ games and were a very tough playoff out in the 2nd round (took a bad call for them to get ousted, many say).  James has never had the luxury of having a surrounding cast so good that he could leave and they'd still win 50+ games.
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The Heat would have, if Bosh didn't develop blood clots in his lungs.

 
Without Bam the Heat just couldn't clear the defensive boards in game 2.  The Lakers were playing three guards along with LeBron & AD down the stretch and Miami had no answers.

 
Anthony Davis is playing some amazingly inspired basketball this year and especially this playoffs. For a while he was considered as being a top 5 player in the league and then most (including myself) dropped him out of that discussion. He’s playing his way back into that conversation for me. If he’s not top 5; he’s pretty dang close

 
Just amazing how well AD moves for his size. Watching him switch and guard some 6-3 etc guard.... and you gain that appreciation how special a big from a historical perspective he is.

 
Craig_MiamiFL said:
Just amazing how well AD moves for his size. Watching him switch and guard some 6-3 etc guard.... and you gain that appreciation how special a big from a historical perspective he is.
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He was 6 foot 2 at the end of his sophmore year in high school.  He played a lot of guard growing up because of that.  He literally grew like 8 inches after his sophmore year--and thats when he was able to integrate some big man skills. The dude basically has the fundamentals/quickness of a guard but with the length and size of a big man.   

 
LA looks unstoppable.  Even scarier is that they can afford another pretty big contract next year.  Wonder who signs there.. probably Derozen or Grant.

 
trader jake said:
Without Bam the Heat just couldn't clear the defensive boards in game 2.  The Lakers were playing three guards along with LeBron & AD down the stretch and Miami had no answers.
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well, they were losing by a billion in game 1 with Bam in the lineup so..

 
There is MVP and most improved, and all kind of awards.  Ultimately what matters is the player that most impacts winning.

If you were to award the player who had the greatest impact on winning, what is your top five?

Mine:

Lebron

Durant

Kawhi

Giannis

Then its a total mix:  Luka, Curry, Davis, Butler, Jokic

 
The draft looks really fluid this year. Around the time of the lottery it looked like there might be a clear top three with Edwards at the top followed by Ball and Wiseman.  Now there are rumors that Edwards and Wiseman might fall with a number of guys possibly taking their place.

 
Heat played their butts off that 1st quarter, Lakers played extremely sloppy, still just a 3 pt lead to show for it. 

Edit: absolutely nothing from Davis as well. Gotta be disheartening. 

 
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Butler single handedly play with more energy and passion than lebron and AD did tonight.  Heat played harder and better and frankly deserved the win.  Lakers were playing over confident and slept on the under-manned Heat--and the hungrier team won tonight.  

 
Doc Rivers in his presser right now basically said the way to unlock Tobias is to put him in the pick-and-roll.  I wonder if Brett Brown ever gave that any thought.  Get some shooters on this team and watch out IMO.

 
Frostillicus said:
Devin Booker sold his house in Arizona. Look for the new big 3 to be KAT, D-LO, and Booker.
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:lmao:  

His old home had been on the market since Feb (after signing his EXTENSION here).

He's already bought a new home here.

Go enjoy KAT's stat padding on a 20 win team, D-Lo's no defense, and whatever bust you take at #1.

Be excellent to each other.

Have a good (off)season

-C

 
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The Lakers need to win tonight's game or this series is going to get real difficult for them.  Miami has played poorly tonight, but are still in it and starting to believe.  The Lakers need to find their composure...they're acting like the Lob City Clips with too many calls.

 
Dragic could've made a difference tonight. He made a huge contribution in the bubble. The hope is he'll sign for one more year in Miami. 

 
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