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timschochet’s political thoughts and commentary- back in here until the election is done (1 Viewer)

The context of funny in this case clearly means funny as in odd, not funny as in humorous.  It is odd that in politics every time a republican makes an attack, racism is assumed while democrats get a free pass.  A politician running for a high office is going to have everything in their background scrutinized.  Obama having one parent who was a foreigner raises a potential constitutional issue as to his natural born citizen status should he have been born outside the United States.   That is part of running for office.  Obama intentionally drug this controversy out because he knew it would make his opponents look bad.  That is politics.  
I don’t agree with your characterization, but putting that aside, you’re avoiding the main issue here. Forget, for once, Republican vs Democrat. Specifically: were Donald Trump’s Birther remarks evidence of his racism? I say obviously yes. What do you say? 

 
I don’t agree with your characterization, but putting that aside, you’re avoiding the main issue here. Forget, for once, Republican vs Democrat. Specifically: were Donald Trump’s Birther remarks evidence of his racism? I say obviously yes. What do you say? 
If I remember correctly, they were anti-Muslim.    He did frame the issue in a bigoted way, but not racist.  

 
I don’t agree with your characterization, but putting that aside, you’re avoiding the main issue here. Forget, for once, Republican vs Democrat. Specifically: were Donald Trump’s Birther remarks evidence of his racism? I say obviously yes. What do you say? 
How is it an obvious yes?

I think Trump is a vile human being and there are many examples of him making statements that could be considered racist or racially charged (although I think he is just a guy who attacks anyone who's not on his side with any ammo he can find), but there is no evidence that the birther thing was racist.  The media, who seemed to think that any criticism of Obama must have come from a racist mindset, started that narrative.

 
How is it an obvious yes?

I think Trump is a vile human being and there are many examples of him making statements that could be considered racist or racially charged (although I think he is just a guy who attacks anyone who's not on his side with any ammo he can find), but there is no evidence that the birther thing was racist.  The media, who seemed to think that any criticism of Obama must have come from a racist mindset, started that narrative.
The first black President had to prove his legitimacy. No white President ever had to prove it, or was ever challenged about it in the same way. This is the same reason that when police stop black drivers, it’s often racist. That’s as best as I can explain it and it seems like an obvious yes to me. 

 
I don’t agree with your characterization, but putting that aside, you’re avoiding the main issue here. Forget, for once, Republican vs Democrat. Specifically: were Donald Trump’s Birther remarks evidence of his racism? I say obviously yes. What do you say? 
I don't think it was racism.  

You can analyze someone's nationality without it being racism.  And the rush to cry racism makes it hard to discuss anything.

 
I don't think it was racism.  

You can analyze someone's nationality without it being racism.  And the rush to cry racism makes it hard to discuss anything.
I do agree with your second sentence as a general rule. But in this case I think it clearly was. 
 

 
It’s impossible  to convince somebody that Trump is racist if he shares the same views as Trump but doesn’t consider himself racist.  Feels like an exercise in futility.
Maybe, but the specific quotes are there, and the specific arguments are there. I think  reasonable to present them and request that those who argue Trump isn’t racist review them and respond. 
And if they fail to do so, I further think it’s reasonable to dismiss their arguments. 

 
Maybe, but the specific quotes are there, and the specific arguments are there. I think  reasonable to present them and request that those who argue Trump isn’t racist review them and respond. 
And if they fail to do so, I further think it’s reasonable to dismiss their arguments. 
That seems like a lot of extra steps when you can dismiss their arguments right now.  But don’t let me stop you.

 
That seems like a lot of extra steps when you can dismiss their arguments right now.  But don’t let me stop you.
The reason I began this thread was to engage in serious discussion and avoid the acrimonious exchanges and personal accusations that have come to dominate so much of this forum lately. If anyone chooses to post in this thread in response to me, then I feel I owe that person an exploration of their point of view, however much I might take issue with it. 

 
The first black President had to prove his legitimacy. No white President ever had to prove it, or was ever challenged about it in the same way. This is the same reason that when police stop black drivers, it’s often racist. That’s as best as I can explain it and it seems like an obvious yes to me. 
GW Bush down?

 
It’s impossible  to convince somebody that Trump is racist if he shares the same views as Trump but doesn’t consider himself racist.  Feels like an exercise in futility.
And when you disagree on any issue involving someone that isn't caucasian, you're default a racist.  And it's impossible to convince somebody of anything different.

 
@jm192 here is an opinion piece as to why Birtherism, as specifically expressed by Donald Trump, is racism: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/observer.com/2016/09/colin-powell-is-right-birtherism-is-racism/amp/

Admittedly, opinion is all it is, but I happen to find it compelling. Please read it if you will and let me know which if any aspects you disagree with. Tia
The world is full of "asssertionism" since we're adding -ism to the end of everything.

The writer asserts Trump was trying to challenge his legitimacy,  when he was challenging his citizenship.  

The article fits with what you believe, and how you see Trump's character as a whole.  Your mind is made up on it, and no number of keyboard characters from me is changing that.  But I see it as people trying to go after the President they didn't like.  And while people have hated Obama because of skin color, countless people didn't like his policies.  You can dislike a politician for reasons other than the color of their skin.  

People tried to challenge McCain's citizenship in 2008 when he ran.  Was that because they were racist against the white guy born in Panama?  Or they didn't want him as President.

 
The world is full of "asssertionism" since we're adding -ism to the end of everything.

The writer asserts Trump was trying to challenge his legitimacy,  when he was challenging his citizenship.  

The article fits with what you believe, and how you see Trump's character as a whole.  Your mind is made up on it, and no number of keyboard characters from me is changing that.  But I see it as people trying to go after the President they didn't like.  And while people have hated Obama because of skin color, countless people didn't like his policies.  You can dislike a politician for reasons other than the color of their skin.  

People tried to challenge McCain's citizenship in 2008 when he ran.  Was that because they were racist against the white guy born in Panama?  Or they didn't want him as President.
You raise McCain as a counter example and @jon_mx raised George W Bush. I don’t think either is an example of anything. Donald Trump and World Net Daily spent months pursuing the Birther nonsense and at one point it was believed by over 50% of all Republicans. 
 

You’re absolutely right that liberals use racism far too often, and at this point it becomes the boy who cried wolf. But in the singular case of Donald Trump I am crying wolf, and with good reason. One of the things that really upsets some life long conservatives I know who really dislike Trump is that they feel he is the worst sort of caricature; almost like Archie Bunker. 

 
You raise McCain as a counter example and @jon_mx raised George W Bush. I don’t think either is an example of anything. Donald Trump and World Net Daily spent months pursuing the Birther nonsense and at one point it was believed by over 50% of all Republicans. 
 

You’re absolutely right that liberals use racism far too often, and at this point it becomes the boy who cried wolf. But in the singular case of Donald Trump I am crying wolf, and with good reason. One of the things that really upsets some life long conservatives I know who really dislike Trump is that they feel he is the worst sort of caricature; almost like Archie Bunker. 
Why not the same for Biden?

“Well, I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.”

“In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”

“poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.”

 
Why not the same for Biden?

“Well, I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.”

“In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”

“poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.”
Both Biden and Trump have a thick layer of Teflon.  These comments might doom a lot of candidates, but over half the population gives Joe a pass. They definitely are racist comments.

 
Why not the same for Biden?

“Well, I tell you what, if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black.”

“In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”

“poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.”
We’re not discussing Biden though. 
I think Biden’s comments are racist. Trump’s are far worse iMO because of their context and because of how he used them to push his political positions. I think Donald Trump is a racist while Joe Biden is an old man who sometimes unfortunately says racist things. 
 

But I gotta tell ya I get really weary of this sort of argument. @Sneegor and @jm192 don’t believe Donald Trump is a racist. @jon_mx doesn’t think birtherism is racism. If you agree with their positions, then I invite you to say so and offer an argument. But just posting “why not the same for Biden?” doesn’t do anyone any good, IMO. 

 
We’re not discussing Biden though. 
I think Biden’s comments are racist. Trump’s are far worse iMO because of their context and because of how he used them to push his political positions. I think Donald Trump is a racist while Joe Biden is an old man who sometimes unfortunately says racist things. 
 

But I gotta tell ya I get really weary of this sort of argument. @Sneegor and @jm192 don’t believe Donald Trump is a racist. @jon_mx doesn’t think birtherism is racism. If you agree with their positions, then I invite you to say so and offer an argument. But just posting “why not the same for Biden?” doesn’t do anyone any good, IMO. 
You're doing the same thing you're accusing those guys of doing.  You're taking clearly racist things and justifying it by claiming the guy isn't a racist he just says racist things.  Come on man the mental gymnastics on that one is top notch.

 
You're doing the same thing you're accusing those guys of doing.  You're taking clearly racist things and justifying it by claiming the guy isn't a racist he just says racist things.  Come on man the mental gymnastics on that one is top notch.
That’s not their argument. Their argument is that Trump doesn’t say racist things. @Sneegorin particular challenged me to offer any examples, which is why I did so. 
But I continue to not understand why you keep focusing on Biden. Biden isn’t part of this discussion. 

 
You're doing the same thing you're accusing those guys of doing.  You're taking clearly racist things and justifying it by claiming the guy isn't a racist he just says racist things.  Come on man the mental gymnastics on that one is top notch.
There is a big difference, in my opinion.  If Joe says something racist, I think you can sit him down and explain it to him.  He may even realize it beforehand. Anyway, he’ll learn from it, apologize and we can move on. But with Trump? He’ll either deny it or double down.

 
There is a big difference, in my opinion.  If Joe says something racist, I think you can sit him down and explain it to him.  He may even realize it beforehand. Anyway, he’ll learn from it, apologize and we can move on. But with Trump? He’ll either deny it or double down.
But Joe has been saying racist things since the 70's.  He can apologize all he wants or claim he's an ignorant old man but he has 40 years of history showing he's a racist.  

 
But Joe has been saying racist things since the 70's.  He can apologize all he wants or claim he's an ignorant old man but he has 40 years of history showing he's a racist.  
I'm don't understand your position.  Is it that both Trump and Biden are equally racist?  Is one more racist than another?  Is only Biden racist?

 
I'm don't understand your position.  Is it that both Trump and Biden are equally racist?  Is one more racist than another?  Is only Biden racist?
They are both racist.  I don't know why we harp on one of them and keep handing out passes for the other one.  Wait, I do understand why it happens on this forum but I don't understand what they think they are trying to prove.  Anyone claiming Biden isn't racist is no different than someone saying Trump isn't.  I mean the quotes are the quotes.

 
They are both racist.  I don't know why we harp on one of them and keep handing out passes for the other one.  Wait, I do understand why it happens on this forum but I don't understand what they think they are trying to prove.  Anyone claiming Biden isn't racist is no different than someone saying Trump isn't.  I mean the quotes are the quotes.
I don’t base these judgments solely on gotcha quotes.

 
We’re not discussing Biden though. 
I think Biden’s comments are racist. Trump’s are far worse iMO because of their context and because of how he used them to push his political positions. I think Donald Trump is a racist while Joe Biden is an old man who sometimes unfortunately says racist things. 
 

But I gotta tell ya I get really weary of this sort of argument. @Sneegor and @jm192 don’t believe Donald Trump is a racist. @jon_mx doesn’t think birtherism is racism. If you agree with their positions, then I invite you to say so and offer an argument. But just posting “why not the same for Biden?” doesn’t do anyone any good, IMO. 
Oh Jesus Christ!

Trump’s a racist but Biden just says racist things.  GTFO with that double standard.

 
We’re not discussing Biden though. 
I think Biden’s comments are racist. Trump’s are far worse iMO because of their context and because of how he used them to push his political positions. I think Donald Trump is a racist while Joe Biden is an old man who sometimes unfortunately says racist things. 
 

But I gotta tell ya I get really weary of this sort of argument. @Sneegor and @jm192 don’t believe Donald Trump is a racist. @jon_mx doesn’t think birtherism is racism. If you agree with their positions, then I invite you to say so and offer an argument. But just posting “why not the same for Biden?” doesn’t do anyone any good, IMO. 
Well golly gosh Tim,

I guess my argument is that Trump isn't a racist.  He's just an old man who sometimes unfortunately says racist things.

Pelosi does something stupid--people flock to the thread to say "Well, Trump is bad, so this isn't really comparable."  Biden makes a gaffe--have you seen Trump's?  Any Dem does anything, and we instantly bring up Trump to dismiss it.  But we don't need to mention Biden when discussing Trump.  It's...convenient.  

I'm happy to stick to the script if everyone else is.  Seems like the rules change daily.  Someone let me know.

I guess the better question is--let me just concede that Trump says racist things.  Does it matter?  Because it seems that you're upset that Trump does it.  But you quickly dismiss it as just an old man saying racist things when Biden does it.  So...why does it matter?  Racism is acceptable from Biden?

 
The first black President had to prove his legitimacy. No white President ever had to prove it, or was ever challenged about it in the same way. This is the same reason that when police stop black drivers, it’s often racist. That’s as best as I can explain it and it seems like an obvious yes to me. 
That is your opinion, but it's not really any proof.   And given the mental gymnastics you are making since to excuse Biden's racially charged comments, it appears as if objectivity if not your friend in this conversation.   There are far better examples than the birther story to demonstrate Trump's (alleged*) racism.

*I say alleged because I still think Trump is more of an ####### than a racist.  When he says something racist, I think it's him finding any way he can to insult someone who doesn't agree with him or isn't on his side.   He doesn't care if you are a man, woman, white, black, Asian, straight or homosexual.  He will insult anybody and will stoop to any level to do so.

It’s impossible  to convince somebody that Trump is racist if he shares the same views as Trump but doesn’t consider himself racist.  Feels like an exercise in futility.
Outside of a few posters here, who here shares Trump's views?  I sure as hell don't.

 
Let me chime in here....  I know lots of Trump supporters who blindly follow the guy and seemingly parrot his views. 
I was trying to focus more on posters here, but I hear ya. I work with a guy like that.  Nice guy, albeit very socially awkward, but the minute he tries to talk about anything relating to Trump or politics, I am like, "Okay, see ya," and I'm outta there.  I ain't listening to that drivel. 

 
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I was trying to focus more on posters here, but I hear ya. I work with a guy like that.  Nice guy, albeit very socially awkward, but the minute he tries to talk about anything relating to Trump or politics, I am like, "Okay, see ya," and I'm outta there.  I ain't listening to that drivel. 
The helluvit is I live in a solid blue state.  Look at the primary voting turnouts in MA.  For every Republican that shows up to vote, in the primaries there's 9 Democrats.  Yet look at the devotion of those Republicans to Trump...  unbelievable.  

 
:goodposting:

Nailed it. When you are on an uneven playing field like in here though these double standards just get  :deadhorse:  and some actually believe it. Best to just ignore here. 
Nothing new.

- Believe women (when they accuse conservatives)

- Believe (liberal) minorities

- Assume the worst  about conservstives.

 
:goodposting:

Nailed it. When you are on an uneven playing field like in here though these double standards just get  :deadhorse:  and some actually believe it. Best to just ignore here. 
It certainly isn’t an uneven playing field of the sort you’re describing in this thread. I am surrounded, at least in terms of posts, by those who disagree with me. I’m not complaining; that’s exactly the way I wanted it. 
 

But as far as double standards go, I have to say I’m a bit confused. I was arguing with at least 3 people who asserted that Donald Trump is not a racist. I offered examples of his racism and challenged them to address those examples. Rather than get a direct response I was asked what about Joe Biden? Pointing out Biden’s problematic statements is hardly an argument that refutes Trump’s racism. If your argument was going to be “so what? Your guy is just as bad” then you never should have argued that “my guy isn’t racist” in the first place. 

 
It certainly isn’t an uneven playing field of the sort you’re describing in this thread. I am surrounded, at least in terms of posts, by those who disagree with me. I’m not complaining; that’s exactly the way I wanted it. 
 

But as far as double standards go, I have to say I’m a bit confused. I was arguing with at least 3 people who asserted that Donald Trump is not a racist. I offered examples of his racism and challenged them to address those examples. Rather than get a direct response I was asked what about Joe Biden? Pointing out Biden’s problematic statements is hardly an argument that refutes Trump’s racism. If your argument was going to be “so what? Your guy is just as bad” then you never should have argued that “my guy isn’t racist” in the first place. 
Double standard:

Trump is racist, and pointing out Biden's racist comments doesn't disprove it.  I don't want to discuss Biden's racist remarks, because this wasn't about him.  I'm not going to try to disprove Biden being racist because Trump is more racister.

Do you care about having a President that doesn't say racist things, or can it just not be a President named Donald Trump?  Can you just let me know where the goal posts are?  

 
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I don’t think either are racist in the classic wear white sheets on their heads and burn crosses type of racist.  But they are both clearly old men with a bigoted way of thinking, and sometimes saying, which is racist.  In fact there might be an argument to be made that is a more dangerous form of racist in that it still shapes thoughts and beliefs but is more hidden.  

 
Double standard:

Trump is racist, and pointing out Biden's racist comments doesn't disprove it.  I don't want to discuss Biden's racist remarks, because this wasn't about him.  I'm not going to try to disprove Biden being racist because Trump is more racister.

Do you care about having a President that doesn't say racist things, or can it just not be a President named Donald Trump?  Can you just let me know where the goal posts are?  
Actually in terms of priorities regarding this election I don’t care about it one way or the other. I’ve discussed it today only because I’m astonished that there are those out there that still don’t think Trump is racist. 
But I have a number of priorities and while racism is certainly one of them it’s a little down the list for me. In the wake of the pandemic, competence is my #1 priority because I believe that Donald Trump is willfully incompetent, which means that he is not only incompetent but overrides those competent people who surround him. That makes almost any other person who would not do this preferable to me. 

 
I have no idea about the dad and I’m not really a fan of the argument that because the father is something the son must be too.

But that being said there’s plenty of books and stories that we’ve been exposed to from close family members, friends, business associates, regarding Trump’s racial animus towards blacks. It’s all anecdotal of course, but it’s a whole LOT of anecdotes...

 
But as far as double standards go, I have to say I’m a bit confused. I was arguing with at least 3 people who asserted that Donald Trump is not a racist. I offered examples of his racism and challenged them to address those examples. Rather than get a direct response I was asked what about Joe Biden? Pointing out Biden’s problematic statements is hardly an argument that refutes Trump’s racism. If your argument was going to be “so what? Your guy is just as bad” then you never should have argued that “my guy isn’t racist” in the first place. 
See, this is the problem with far too many people. You assume that anyone who doesn't agree with every single criticism of Trump, considers him "their guy."   It's the old "If you are not with us (on every single point), you are against us."  And it hinders any possible good conversations.  And it happens way too much in general, from conservatives, liberals and everyone in between.

 
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See, this is the problem with far too many people. You assume that anyone who doesn't agree with every single criticism of Trump, considers him "their guy."   It's the old "If you are not with us (on every single point), you are against us."  And it hinders any possible good conversations.  And it happens way too much in general, from conservatives, liberals and everyone in between.
Except that my post there was in response to someone who has written that Donald Trump is “his guy” on many occasions. 

 
Kamala Harris has an annoying high pitched voice. 
 

Compared to all other considerations this is really minor. She appears to be quite competent and I think she’ll probably make a pretty good VP and eventually President. 
 

But all the same I wish she had a different voice. 
What about her crazy laugh?

 
This is absolutely true. But I believe that most people who are protesting are not in favor of violence and don’t participate in it. Do you agree with this? 
I do agree with you, but mostly peaceful protests are resulting in violence all over the country.

 
I love money as much as the next guy but I’m doing fine thanks very much. I don’t bet on politics. I used to but I didn’t feel right. I don’t see politics as a game. And especially right now when lives are at stake. 
To answer your earlier question I put it at about 75-80%. 
Biden is "probable" to win the election. The national polling doesn't matter, but the state polling would have to be by ~5% in most of the swing states right now. There is still time for these to shrink, but I'm only referring to where we are right now.

 
Trump said something at his presser yesterday that was pretty revealing, don’t know if anyone else caught this. He said “so I watch Hannity, and Laura, and Tucker, and Fox and Friends, and Lou Dobbs, and the Fox Business Channel”- 

So I’m thinking, how much ####### “executive time” does this guy have anyhow? Everything I’ve ever read about the Presidency suggests it’s supposed to be a 24/7 job; there’s rarely enough time for sleep much less any leisure at all. But I  guess it’s different with this guy. 
Something tells me he's got plenty of time for Fox News shows.

 
timschochet said:
@whoknew...I honestly don’t know. 

My FIL does not believe that Trump is a racist. But for him not to believe that, he has to willfully either ignore or disbelieve a lot of evidence that should be clear to everyone paying attention. 
Most people who support Trump don't think he's a racist. They love his candor and they disagree with the media's attacks on him. The media is believed to be as much as the opposition as Biden is. When I watch CNN, it's getting hard to tell the difference.

 
The shooting of the two police officers in Compton is terrible. Hoping they recover. 

Whoever shouted “we hope they die” , if that actually happened, is of course an idiot and not at all representative of the vast majority of those who engage in peaceful protest of police misconduct;  this shouldn’t even have to be said. But no doubt Fox and the usual suspects on talk radio will play it up as if all protestors feel this way. Look for our President to do the same. 

 

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